Online Course: GARRITAN INTERACTIVE PRINCIPLES OF ORCHESTRATION by Rimsky-Korsakov [Archive]

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Garritan

03-27-2006, 01:52 AM

..........

Garritan

03-27-2006, 01:52 AM

We are pleased to announce a free course that we will be offering on the forum based upon Rimsky-Korsakov's well-known text "Principles of Orchestration".

This is another first and I wanted to run this by you and seek your ideas and your help. The goal is to provide an entire orchestration course based upon an interactive version of the Rimsky-Korsakov text. The inclusion of audio examples makes this ideal for all who want to learn more about orchestration.

About the Project

Rimsky-Korsakov's "Principles Of Orchestration" is THE classic text on Orchestration. Rimsky-Korsakov's masterful textbook emphasizes the fundamentals of orchestration and the combination of instrumental colors. The focus of the text, as the author writes, is on "combining instruments in separate groups and the entire orchestral scheme... means of producing strength of tone...variety of color and expression in scoring..."

Although musical examples in the text are presented in score form, what was lacking was the ability to hear audio examples of Rimsky-Korsakov's works. In this revised internet edition, we have attempted to remain faithful to the original translated text. The basic concepts of orchestration as Rimsky-Korsakov presented them remain untouched.

The important thing we added were the MP3 audio examples - almost 275 of them! The remaining chapters dealing with Voices are planned as we progress on our choir library. In a few cases a substitute or supplement was made if it could better highlight what was being conveyed.
With the MP3's, you gain an audible idea of the sound or orchestral concepts that Rimsky-Korsakov was trying to convey.

Hear and See the Examples

The reader is not only able to read the text and scores on the printed page, but can now hear examples that follow the score. We also added exercise as well as revised graphics and illustrations for clarification and color.

A great deal of work was involved making this course available. Thanks to Sean Hannifin for doing all of the flash work so that the music flows with the score and thanks to Robert Davis who endeavored to render all of the MP3 audio examples realized with Garritan Personal Orchestra (and a little Strad and GPOA mixed in).

The ability to hear various orchestral realizations of the different exmples from R-K's works is invaluable, and few books can provide this kind of instruction. The quality of the text coupled with the audio examples makes this revised book a perfect companion to learn orchestration, or as a reference, or as an orchestration course. For the learner, this could be a marvelous thing.

I Need Your Help

I would like to know what you think of this idea. Would you be interested in participating as a learner?

We could use some teachers. Maybe there are some of you who have taught from this text that would like to be instructors. I could use some advice on how to set this up, how to structure the lessons, what pace to proceed, format, etc. I'll need your help on correcting typos letting me know if what is being taught is useful. Also needed will be advice on other examples and exercises and improving this course.. Let's proceed together.

I believe that the commitment to the musician does not end with the mere sale of a product and my goal is for musicians to improve their knowledge and skills. What better way for a musician to learn about orchestration and hone their skills than to provide the ultimate book on orchestration along with practical ways to learn and apply that knowledge.

Thanks in advance for your participation.

Gary Garritan

Below is an example from chapter 2 of what the course will be like:

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GARRITAN INTERACTIVE
PRINCIPLES OF ORCHESTRATION
by Rimsky-Korsakov

Chapter II
MELODY

Part 1 - Stringed Instruments

Whether it be long or short, a simple theme or a melodic phrase, melody should always stand out in relief from the accompaniment. This may be done by artificial or natural means; artificially, when the question of tone quality does not come into consideration, and the melody is detached by means of strongly accentuated dynamic shades; naturally, by selection and contrast of timbres, strengthening of resonance by doubling, tripling, etc., or crossing of parts (violoncellos above the violas and violins, clarinets or oboes above the flutes, bassoons above the clarinets etc.).

Melody planned in the upper parts stands out from the very fact of position alone, and likewise, to a less degree when it is situated in the low register. In the middle of the orchestral range it is not so prominent and the methods referred to above come into operation. They may also be employed for two part melody (in thirds and sixths) and for polyphonic writing.

http://garritan.com/RK/Ch1_files/line.gif

Melody in stringed instruments.

Instances of the melodic use of stringed instruments are in-numerable. The reader will find many examples in the pre-sent treatise. With the exception of the double basses, dull in tone and of little flexibility, chiefly employed in unison or in octaves with the violoncellos, � each of the other stringed instruments, taken independently, is qualified to assume full responsibility for the melodic line.

a) Violins.http://garritan.com/RK/Ch1_files/b-violin.jpg

Melody in the soprano-alto register and an extra-high compass usually falls to the lot of the 1st Violins, sometimes to the 2nd Violins or to both in unison, a process which produces fuller resonance without impairing quality of tone.

Score References & Musical Examples Using GPO:

No. I. Sheherazade 2nd movement, Section B; Violins in melody, piano and graceful in character.

Click on Play Button below to Play from the Score

garritan.com/RK/No1.swf

No. 2. The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitesh, Section 283; Violins in melody.

Click on Play Button below to Play from the Score
garritan.com/RK/No2.swf

GPO Exercise - Violins in melody - Example No. 2 This is a brief example from Rimsky's work where you can practice using Garritan Personal Orchestra, gaining balance, deciding on articulations, and inputing with your keyboard. The 1st Violins are the only part left out( it is the topic at hand) as you will input them via keyboard or notation(either in the sequencer or importing the midi into a notation program).

Load the Example #2 - Legend of Kitesh midi (http://garritan.com/RK/RK/#2Legend_of_Kitesh.mid) into your sequencer(most will likely use cubase, the tutorials for loading GPO and importing midi files for such sequencers can be found at http://www.garritan.com/tips_tutorials.html) (http://www.garritan.com/tips_tutorials.html%29).
Load two instances of GPO either as DXi or VST plugin.
Determine from the score what instruments you will require for articulations or doubling (I.E two wind instruments in unison would require two seperate plr patches).
Load instruments into GPO instance 1 and 2 (I.E Flute player 1 in GPO instance 1 channel 1, 1st Violins one sust + short in GPO instance 2 channel 1)
In one of the emptly slots go ahead and load percussion toys as it will be used as your temporary metronome.
Once you have loaded all that you require after looking at the brief score, go ahead and move such things as pizz to a different track by either copying the current track and deleting the sustained parts that should be pizz, or you can use the keyswitch patches(however be forwarned that in doing so this will use much more memory. It's recommended to seperate the tracks of Sust/pizz as those are the only two articulations you will need and it will save on memory).
Once you have all your tracks set up and have determined your instrument setup, you can now start recording. It is at this point where you should set your tempo to a comfortable level if you are going to use the keyboard(you can always increase it later). Now its only a matter of track selection, mod wheel data(CC1), legato(sust pedal CC64) and balancing after giving a few tries and becoming satisfied with the 1st Violins part(unless you intputed thru notation).
Use the simple controls of GPO(mod wheel for dynamic expression, sustain pedal for legato(phrasing), and velocity for attack. Once your satisfied(dont take to much time with this) go ahead and set the tempo to where it should be or close to. Do not worry about a perfect "mix" as this is just a simple excersise to get used to GPO and at the same time work with an example from the book.

No. 3. Spanish Capriccio, Section J; Violins I in the upper register doubling the high register of the wood-wind. Choice resonance.

Click on Play Button below to Play from the Score

garritan.com/RK/No3.swf

Other References:
• The Tsar's Bride, Section 84. Pianissimo melody (Violins 1) of a troubled dramatic character. Harmonic accompaniment (Vns II and Violas tremolando � middle parts; the Violincellos forming the bass).
• Antar, before Section 70 . �Descending melodic phrase, Violins I con sordini piano.
• Antar, Section 12. Light graceful melody, oriental in style; a dance measure (Violin I con sordino), the mutes producing a dull ethereal quality of tone:

http://garritan.com/RK/Ch1_files/line.gif

b) Violas.http://garritan.com/RK/Ch1_files/b-viola.jpg

Melody in the alto-tenor register and a still higher compass is assigned to the violas. Cantabile melodies however are not so frequently written for violas as for violins and 'cellos, partly because the viola tone is slightly nasal in quality and better fitted for short characteristic phrases, partly because the number of viola players in an orchestra is smaller. Melodies confided to the violas are generally doubled by other strings or by the wood-wind.

Score References & Musical Examples Using GPO:

No. 4. Pan Voyevoda, duet in Act II, Section 145; Violas long cantabile melody, dolce, in unison with the mezzo-soprano voice.

Click on Play Button below to Play from the Score

garritan.com/RK/No4.swf

newmewzikboy

03-27-2006, 01:54 AM

Whers chaptor won?

Dave Hoffman

03-27-2006, 03:20 AM

Just how many hours do you have in a day up there on Orcas Island?

You amaze me Gary.

ChinmayL

03-27-2006, 03:44 AM

Hello Gary,

I think this is a wonderful idea, especially for us hobbyists who have no formal training in composition. I would be very interested in learning from this course.

Have you thought of a GPO-production course as well? Something that maybe explains, with examples, the best way to lay out the MIDI notes for different instruments and sounds and how to effectively apply the expression parameter and velocity.

Thanks,
Chinmay

etLux

03-27-2006, 03:47 AM

Holy cow!

You're going to do the whole Rimsky-Korsakov?

This is excellent! Having the score examples on the ready, and the exercises lined up with GPO... educators are going to go nuts for this; and students will finally be able to study this masterpiece in proper context while hearing the examples.

(One thought, you might want to do this on its own website.)

I'm not sure in what role I might be of assistance in this -- I know R-K well, of course; but I haven't had a chance to let this sink in yet.

I will say this much:

I'll definitely be around for this one...

BRAVO!

(Still again!)

All my best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com

The excitement just never ends...
.

etLux

03-27-2006, 03:50 AM

It's got to be something in the water up there. Please send me some.
.

ZareOne

03-27-2006, 04:18 AM

I can't believe it. You and your team are hyperthreading enabled people, aren't you?

I'm just starting to study orchestration at the moment (Piston's and Rimsky's books) so maybe I make a break until this one is released. How long will it take? And, what will be the price? You have the purpose of democratize the music world, and you're gonna achieve it, superb products at a fraction of the regular prices, the resources in the web and here in the forum... You're a revolutionary man!

ZareOne

03-27-2006, 04:21 AM

We are pleased to announce a free course that we will be offering on the forum based upon Rimsky-Korsakov's well-known text "Principals of Orchestration".

Sorry for asking the price. I misreaded this part. Now I'm more amazed if possible. (5X :eek: )

rwayland

03-27-2006, 04:29 AM

I am by nature, a rather placid, calm individual. So please take my comment of "good idea" as you would a jumping screaming whoopee from a more excitable person.

I will be one of the first users, even though I have the Roman Korsakoff on my shelf, just a few feet away from me.

Your sample was a great teaser!

Richard

ZareOne

03-27-2006, 05:55 AM

I suppose this has been asked already, but I think it would be REALLY good to have a MIDI Orchestration course from DPDan. He is the master of GPO. I have Paul Gilreath's Guide to MIDI Orchestration, and it's a good book, but I think that when GPOA is released, maybe we could have a DPDan's course of sequencing/orchestration/mastering via GPOA. I don't except it for free, of course, but could be an addon to GPOA for a fair price. I would be the first to buy it.

steve martin

03-27-2006, 06:25 AM

Hi Gary,

YES, YES, YES, YES!

I have to say that the actual first example I listened to out of the Sheherazade sounded great! I'm very impressed.

Bring it on!!!

And hey, it looks like we get a little sneak hearing into GPOA! Well, even better!

regards,

Steve.

Hannes_F

03-27-2006, 07:00 AM

Great, great, great. Fantastic!!!!!!!!!

I would like to know what you think of this idea. Would you be interested in participating as a learner?

I would abandon on sleep for participating!

mhleo

03-27-2006, 07:11 AM

Gary,
This is a dream coming true. You and your team have incredible and so useful ideas. Yes, I would be a most fervent learner. Best, mhleo

bosone

03-27-2006, 07:23 AM

hi!
it's some time that i don't write to this board but i constantly reading it...
this idea is wonderful... i only hope that it will be possible to download the entire course (maybe in a zip... and maybe only for registered GPO users?) because i will not have the possibily to follow the lessons online...
it will be a great chance for me to learn something... and i necessitate it (to learn!!! :-)
thanks (again!) :-)

Pierre Laroche

03-27-2006, 08:34 AM

Hi Gary,

This is a wonderful idea. And having the samples as MIDI files that can be used with GPO is a wonderful tool for learning orchestration AND GPO.

And you offer it for free ? That's what I call actual customer support !!!

One thing I noticed is: The remaining chapters dealing with Voices are planned as we progress on our choir library. So you are really going to produce it ? That's really great too.

The only drawback is that I am now jealous of your dual-core atomic energized hyperthreaded brain :D

cptexas

03-27-2006, 08:58 AM

GREAT idea!!! GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT!!!!!:D :D

rpearl

03-27-2006, 09:41 AM

Gary,

Once again, you lead the way with a superb idea. This will be an invaluable resource and learning tool.

Do you ever sleep...;)

R. Pearl

musical.matthew

03-27-2006, 09:57 AM

This is great Garry! I will definitely be involved as a learner...

LouisD

03-27-2006, 10:00 AM

What a splendid thing to do!

EricWatkins

03-27-2006, 10:09 AM

Oh wow Gary. I dont even know what to say.I feel like the education you are offering is the biggest missing link of my own personal skill set and one that would be almost impossible for me to attain do to financial and even geographical reasons. It is nothing less than truly amazing that you would offer-up such a great resource. I will back this 110% in anyway I can. I guess the only thing I would ask for if it's not to much would be some basic guidelines for reading scores. I know how to read music for piano so I know a lot already but maybe just a few details to the differences when reading a score sheet. I dont know what I would be able to do to help but I would help anyway that I could. Promise. Maybe I could help render files for examples. That's something I COULD do. I've never used any of the notation programs before but I think I'll get out the GPO discs and load up the one you gave us to help me understand these lessons better and learn a new way to write. I always wanted to be able to write from notation anyway. Just seems WAY intimidating. Anyway, You're the MAN Gary. Just unfreakin believable. Thankyou from the bottom of my heart.

Eric

tcohen

03-27-2006, 10:27 AM

This is absolutely top-notch stuff! I am very excited. To put my 2 cents worth in, I would recommend this be a self-guided course as much as possible... I just think of all the people from all different lifestyles and places in their lives that could benefit from this and feel that making it a work at your own pace course would give the most people the chance to use it. Something like a true "on-line" course from a college.

REALLY looking forward to this and, as usual, well done Gary - these are the things that make Garritan more than just a sample library - great support, innovative thinking and a caring approach will assure your continued success. Congratulations!

Regards,

Tim

RichR

03-27-2006, 10:28 AM

This is definitely a worthwhile project.

I too am of the same mind as Dave Hoffman. Where do you find the time on Orcas Island. There must be a time warp in your vicinity that gives you extra hours in a day. Or maybe Orcas is like "Groundhog Day" and Eddie Murray, it's never ending. If it's something in the water as etLux suggests, I would like some too!

:) :) :)

Styxx

03-27-2006, 10:36 AM

This is excellent and well produced. The examples are outstanding. I know where I will be the majority on this forum especially having been working on Rimsky-Korsakov’s "Sherherazade" score myself.

Hajo

03-27-2006, 10:57 AM

Hello,

you make me happy. This is just the way I try to learn new things and in fact I bought the book and started to search for the RK-Midifiles and was trying to convert them with Finale and GPO to real music, just to get an impression of the musical examples. (My imagination while reading only the score is - at the moment - not so well developed :rolleyes: ).

So it seems that I just have to wait ...

The way that I can help is more from the educational point of view. I am the coordinator for all elearning and eTeaching/ (http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/eteaching/)-activities at the University of Tuebingen and work together with the Knowledge Media Research Center (http://www.e-teaching.org/).

I would propose that you use a "web-based learning management system that allows users to create, edit and publish learning and teaching material in an integrated system with their normal web browsers". We over here use an opensource product Ilias (http://www.ilias.de/ios/index-e.html) which would fit for your project.

But that gets too technical. If you are interested, just drop me a line and I can tell you more.

Hajo

fred Holmes

03-27-2006, 11:05 AM

yes Yes YES!!!!!
Simply unbelievable! Gary, you and your team are just amazing.
Fred

SeanHannifin

03-27-2006, 11:14 AM

These sure are looking mighty spiffy!! :D

This is truly a fantastic idea! :)

Stephanie Pray

03-27-2006, 11:39 AM

Wow Gary! :) This is a great idea :) Thanks so much for making this available :)

qccowboy

03-27-2006, 12:07 PM

stoverje

03-27-2006, 12:19 PM

I too would be very interested in being a learner. Thanks so much for offering such a user experience and learning tool! Audio examples have been lacking. I try to enter the example scores into Finale to hear what I can from that, but it is quite time consuming.

Jim S.

Skysaw

03-27-2006, 12:24 PM

jcbryson1

03-27-2006, 12:53 PM

Wow! I would definitely and enthusiastically participate in this. I had planned to go through this text on my own, but this would be fantasitic.

Thanks!!!

Jon

stoverje

03-27-2006, 12:57 PM

I am not sure if qccowboy is using a PC or a Mac, but I am able to view the Chapter 2 sample and hear the audio fine with FireFox on my Apple laptop.

Jim S.

Garritan

03-27-2006, 01:05 PM

how about making online material accessible to people who do not use Internet Explorer? there appear to be no plugins for Mozilla to view your sample pages :(

unless you intend it as a downloadable thing? in which case, never mind.I am using Firefox. Try updating your version and make sure you have the Flash plugin installed in your browser. See if that works.

Gary Garritan

Edi

03-27-2006, 01:13 PM

I am not sure if qccowboy is using a PC or a Mac, but I am able to view the Chapter 2 sample and hear the audio fine with FireFox on my Apple laptop.

Jim S.

Also works fine with Safari on MAC OSX.

This is a wonderful thing!

Ed

Steve_Karl

03-27-2006, 01:25 PM

Yes yes and YES! This is totally awesome!

TomcatII

03-27-2006, 01:28 PM

This is just exactly what I need!!!! This is GREAT!!!!! I'm anxiously awaiting their appearance on the web and, hopefully, can download them for study at my own pace on my non-web connected DAW.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, SIR!!!!!!!

Tom (the other Tom Davis, LOL)

dermod

03-27-2006, 01:29 PM

I am delighted to doff my cap to this project, which is altruism of a high level. Some of the earlier attempts to launch an orchestration course sadly fizzled out, partly because individual assessment of exercises was attempted.

Styxx

03-27-2006, 01:38 PM

This is a nice example of what is to come. Thanks to all involved. Chapter "won" ezz somewhere near grasshopper.

tptsareamazing

03-27-2006, 01:54 PM

WOW!! Now this is a pleasant suprise...wow!!

When I purchased GPO, I also purchased this book, but haven't been able to use it very much because of not having any recordings of the scores in Part II. Now I feel I can get the most out of my book!!! I shouldn't be suprised that it is Garritan who is doing this--Gary, your efforts to educate the musical world and bring technology to those who can't afford the "top-notch" samplers is absoultely amazing. This is an awesome idea...

...WOW!!

-Ken :D

CallMeZoot

03-27-2006, 02:16 PM

Excellent.

I would be willing to help out, as a teacher or beta-learner. I've taking plenty of classes in orchestration, but mostly out of the Adler book. The R.K. book is on my shelf as an occasional reference, but I haven't read it cover to cover.

What are you looking for from teachers?

chris.

JBacal

03-27-2006, 02:26 PM

Nice concept. I look forward to it.

Best,
Jay

qccowboy

03-27-2006, 03:04 PM

I am using Firefox. Try updating your version and make sure you have the Flash plugin installed in your browser. See if that works.

Gary Garritan

I'm using Mozilla, not Firerfox. and there appear to be no plugins for Mozilla, aor at least, it never seems to find them.

pianodoc

03-27-2006, 04:01 PM

Gary:

I am certainly pleased to see this available on the Forum. The example from Chapter II suggests this will be invaluable both as instruction in orchestration as well as in developing skills with GPO.

I will be looking forward to participating on a number of levels.

David Mauney

Hajo

03-27-2006, 04:05 PM

Hello,

how about making online material accessible to people who do not use Internet Explorer? there appear to be no plugins for Mozilla to view your sample pages :(

You can install Firefox as a second browser or through Mozilla away for you will not need it anymore. Needs nearly no place and has the same basics: It works perfectly on all OSs.

Hajo

jonray

03-27-2006, 04:47 PM

Fantastic idea!! What vision!! :)
Thanks so much - to Gary (top bloke) and team.
Jon

JonFairhurst

03-27-2006, 05:00 PM

This is a TERRIBLE idea.

We prefer that orchestration be taught without audible examples, preferably with illegible notation in poorly printed microscopic font.

We also prefer that people study orchestration alone in small, damp, dark corners. Collaboration when studying orchestration should only be allowed after paying steep tuition costs at approved institutions of higher learning and at certain experimental research laboratories for the insane.

Finally, orchestration cannot be learned. It is an innate gift that was given only to the classical masters. We believe that no one born after 1900 has ever received this gift, with the exception of Chauncey Blatt, who was killed at the age of five by a stampede of ocelots in a poorly maintained zoo.

Please cease this waste of time immediately, Mr. Garritan.

-The Society for the Undying Worship of Dead Composers and Not You Lot

juan

03-27-2006, 05:45 PM

This is a great idea. It's been many years since I poked my nose in an orchestration book, and I need the refresher. I guess this makes up my mind as to which of the various orchestra sound libraries to buy.
juan

thesoundsmith

03-27-2006, 06:09 PM

brilliant! I love it, and will definitely be participating as a student as time permits. Thank you Gary. for making this great text come alive. You did it agai.

Now get some sleep, facryingoutloud...:D

rwayland

03-27-2006, 06:18 PM

how about making online material accessible to people who do not use Internet Explorer? there appear to be no plugins for Mozilla to view your sample pages :(

unless you intend it as a downloadable thing? in which case, never mind.

I have no trouble with it using Firefox. Try checking for updates.

Richard

rwayland

03-27-2006, 06:27 PM

This is a TERRIBLE idea.

We also prefer that people study orchestration alone in small, damp, dark corners. Collaboration when studying orchestration should only be allowed after paying steep tuition costs at approved institutions of higher learning and at certain experimental research laboratories for the insane.

Finally, orchestration cannot be learned. It is an innate gift that was given only to the classical masters. We believe that no one born after 1900 has ever received this gift, with the exception of Chauncey Blatt, who was killed at the age of five by a stampede of ocelots in a poorly maintained zoo.

Please cease this waste of time immediately, Mr. Garritan.

-The Society for the Undying Worship of Dead Composers and Not You Lot

Would you agree that your remarks apply equally well to the composer's art?

Richard

JonFairhurst

03-27-2006, 07:13 PM

Would you agree that your remarks apply equally well to the composer's art?

RichardSorry Richard,

My login was apparently hacked by the SUWDCNYL, a notorious group of scoundrels, to be sure. However, I believe that, for them, their sentiments apply to all art and human endeavor. ;)

Personally, I think the online course concept is excellent. I have Adler's book, and the CDs are invaluable, as the score to wave renderer in my head is limited. Having a similar opportunity to study R-K is fantastic.

What I think would be great would be something like this:

Here's a principle: melody stands out when given to the high registers.

Here are examples: as above.

Here's the homework: given these eight bars of melody and accompanyment on a piano staff (provided), orchestrate for string orchestra, using GPO and your notation/sequencer.

Later in the course, you could ask to orchestrate using the style/voicings of Mozart/Beethoven/whomever, based on the examples of their work in thie same section.

One thing for sure: bound the exercises to a few bars and styles. I bought a workbook regarding harmony that would ask the student to notate the transition from every possible quartet voicing and chord to every other possible quartet voicing and chord in every key signature. My studies ground to a halt, as it was too much busy work and I got board with the whole thing.

Each exercise should take an hour or less, and should focus on one main concept. I swim competitively, and during practice we focus on one aspect of our stroke at a time. Once you start working on the second aspect, the first aspect is compromised.

Blah, blah.

Anyway, great work! (Even if the SUWDCNYL syndicate hates it.)

-JF

Garritan

03-27-2006, 07:27 PM

Gary,

This is a fantastic idea, and would be a huge boon to budding composers/orchestrators.

I am very familiar with RK's text, having worked through it page-by-page at least four or five times. Still, I'd be happy to beta-test as a "learner," if that would help. I'd also be happy to contribute as a teacher as you requested, if I understood exactly what you needed in that department.

In short, anything I can do to contribute to this, let me know.Jamie,
I welcome your participation. You are a very talented composer and orchestrator and you would have much to contribute to this project. And having worked with the text page-by-page at least 4 or 5 times qualifies your for orchestral sainthood. :)

Gary Garritan

Garritan

03-27-2006, 07:29 PM

What I think would be great would be something like this:

Here's a principle: melody stands out when given to the high registers.

Here are examples: as above.

Here's the homework: given these eight bars of melody and accompanyment on a piano staff (provided), orchestrate for string orchestra, using GPO and your notation/sequencer.

Later in the course, you could ask to orchestrate using the style/voicings of Mozart/Beethoven/whomever, based on the examples of their work in thie same section.

One thing for sure: bound the exercises to a few bars and styles. I bought a workbook regarding harmony that would ask the student to notate the transition from every possible quartet voicing and chord to every other possible quartet voicing and chord in every key signature. My studies ground to a halt, as it was too much busy work and I got board with the whole thing.

Each exercise should take an hour or less, and should focus on one main concept. I swim competitively, and during practice we focus on one aspect of our stroke at a time. Once you start working on the second aspect, the first aspect is compromised.Thabnks for the suggestions Jon,
We will have some exercises but we may develop more.

But homework??? Does everyone want homework with the course?

Gary Garritan

Garritan

03-27-2006, 08:03 PM

Hello,

you make me happy. This is just the way I try to learn new things and in fact I bought the book and started to search for the RK-Midifiles and was trying to convert them with Finale and GPO to real music, just to get an impression of the musical examples. (My imagination while reading only the score is - at the moment - not so well developed ).

So it seems that I just have to wait ...

The way that I can help is more from the educational point of view. I am the coordinator for all elearning and eTeaching/-activities at the University of Tuebingen and work together with the Knowledge Media Research Center.

I would propose that you use a "web-based learning management system that allows users to create, edit and publish learning and teaching material in an integrated system with their normal web browsers". We over here use an opensource product Ilias which would fit for your project.

But that gets too technical. If you are interested, just drop me a line and I can tell you more.

HajoHojo,
I could use your help especially being someone familiar with the educational point of view. I am not experienced at all with web-based learning management systems. This is as much of a learning experience for me . Let's correspond to explore these ideas further.

thanks very much,

Gary Garritan

Garritan

03-27-2006, 08:24 PM

This is a Test. This is only a Test. This is a test of the emergency GPO system.

Would you prefer the playable score be in the body of the lesson, or do you prefer clicking on the thumbnails to see the popups?
http://garritan.com/RK/No1.swf

southportJim

03-27-2006, 09:01 PM

Would you prefer the playable score be in the body of the lesson, or do you prefer clicking on the thumbnails to see the popups?

Truly incredible...I go away for a few days and come back to R-K on GPO!!! This is wonderful, count me in as a learner.

1) Body of lesson for playable score (it all works fine in Opera, BTW).
2) I don't know if it is possible, but if the lessons are "downloadable", it would be a great help to those of us who have internet access at work, but not at home.

...onward thru the fog!
;-)

Brian2112

03-27-2006, 09:05 PM

This is very exciting!:D

I have been too embarrassed to admit this (though, I’m sure anyone who has heard my music can tell), that my music reading skills are almost non-existent. I bought some books on orchestration, but the examples might as well have been written in a Cyrillic translation of Chinese. As Ross Perot says “I’m all ears”.:D I am reminded of my junior high school band director. He always let me get away with improvising my parts because he liked them better than the written parts, however, when contest time came around, I had to play what was written. In frustration one day, I remember him yelling at the top of his voice and in front of the entire band “Schum!!!!! You couldn’t read a whole note – “Come to me Jesus”!!!!! (You might have had to have grown up in Texas or the southern part of the U.S. to get the full effect).
Somehow, I had good enough “ears” (on piano) and chops (on drums no less) to get into Berklee and they went to work on me. By the time I was done, I could write lead sheets and even 4 horn charts. I learned arranging, theory, and all that fun stuff. I even decided to take some private lessons on piano outside of school with one of the piano department’s faculty (which was frowned upon to some degree). The teacher was a little bit angry that most of the faculty decided not to try and teach me how to read properly, but rather just work around the problem by helping me strengthen my ears even more. This all came to a head when, during one particularly busy week, my teacher had assigned a Bach invention for me to learn. I had no time to practice, so I went to the library and checked out a tape and listened to it a few times. I went in to my teacher and played it perfectly. In fact, he said (as best I can recall), “ Not only did you play this piece extremely well, but you played it with a new fingering system you must have developed and, to top it off, read it upside-down.” The music was, in fact, placed upside-down on the piano. He did laugh. So I did too. Then he looked me in the eye and said “You are only cheating yourself.” Well, I remember thinking, “Hey! I can write it down now (notation). If I hear a melody with changes, I can get up and write it down without using a keyboard. I got good ears, what else do I need?
Ahh the arrogance of my youth…
The answer comes some 20 years later when things I used to dream about came true…entire orchestras at my disposal! And because I cheated myself, I can’t get out what I hear in my head (which has always been more orchestral than jazz or rock).
This is a brilliant idea Gary!
Thanks for giving me this second chance!
I’m not going to cheat myself this time.:o
(keep an eye on me though);) :D

Brian

diegom

03-27-2006, 09:17 PM

But homework??? Does everyone want homework with the course?
Gary Garritan

Yes Gary! Keep us busy. To keep things light for the instructor(s), the homework excercises could be self-grading... Hold the answer until the next 'lesson'.

SeanHannifin

03-27-2006, 10:31 PM

But homework??? Does everyone want homework with the course?
I don't think homework is necessarily needed as it is highly probable that the student will be putting their own observations from each lesson to use if they like what they hear (being able to hear being one of the great things about this course). :D

Suggested exercises for practice can certainly be given by teachers, but as Rimsky-Korsakov says "I do not claim to instruct [the student] as to how such information should be put to artistic use, nor to establish my examples in their rightful place in the poetic language of music." :D

SeanHannifin

03-27-2006, 10:37 PM

Also, I think a great thing a teacher could do is perhaps help break down and analyze the examples. In his book, Mr. RK tends to make an observation then gives the example(s) from his own work that illustrate that observation. However, each example undoubtedly contains more fruits than just what RK is using the example to illustrate. At least... I think... :D

tptsareamazing

03-27-2006, 10:46 PM

Would you prefer the playable score be in the body of the lesson, or do you prefer clicking on the thumbnails to see the popups?

Personally, because I own the book and am used to its format, I think that the musical examples should be links (no thumbnail necessary) where in the text they would be refered to. I like as well the idea of adding exercizes to the text--give some of us the practice we need! :D
Also, it would be awesome if the playable scores were also available just as audio, so that users can download them (and use them with the book, if they have it). Just a thought...

I am still amazed by this idea...I was just thinking the other day that, to fully use the R-K book, I'd have to buy "The Complete Rimsky-Korsakov CD Set" (if there is one), and, well, I'm just happy that now I don't...:)

-Ken

RichR

03-28-2006, 01:14 AM

Would you prefer the playable score be in the body of the lesson, or do you prefer clicking on the thumbnails to see the popups?

I don't mind either way but I think clicking on the thumbnail would be fine. Read the text, understand it, then click on the thumbnail to listen to what the text is describing. That works the best for my aging brain.:)

DPDAN

03-28-2006, 01:54 AM

Another blockbuster hit.

Way to go Gary,
you are something else!

Dan

Jerry W.

03-28-2006, 02:51 AM

WOW.

Gary! This is just awesome! I think that I prefer the on-page examples vs. the popups, but really, the popups are just fine too. TOTALLY amazing.

You asked How you were doing a few posts ago? Well, dangit, this makes how you are doing even better! WELL DONE sir!!
Also, If there is anything I can do to help or contribute, I would be happy to. What an EXCITING project!!

:)

Jerry

trentpmcd

03-28-2006, 10:16 AM

Another great idea that appears to be well executed.

Are you thinking of putting this out in organized classes or as self-study? Perhaps both? If you were thinking organized classes, what format? Perhaps e-mails from the instructor and a once-a-week chat?

I think some type of exercise would be great. The exercises should be simple and to the point testing just one part of orchestration and not getting too bogged down in other aspects (harmony, counterpoint, form, etc.). If there are going to be organized classes some of these should be given as homework so the instructor can be sure everyone is on track and give remedial help when/where necessary.

I like embedded links better. I will most likely use the book (I’m an IT professional who hates reading things off of a computer screen) and use the online resources to help make the meanings sink in.

Thanks for once again enriching the music community.

danpowers

03-28-2006, 01:10 PM

I finally took the time to check this thread out. This sounds like the coolest orchestration course ever. :D I'll definitely be recommending it to all my students when it goes live.

Rhap2

03-28-2006, 08:24 PM

Gary:

Do it just the way your examples have been displayed. This is amazing that a score can be read as the time line moves along and plays the music.

As far as homework, I think it is also unnecessary as the student can follow the score along slowly and then analyze what he has just heard. That's the way scores are read in orchestration classes. Then a discussion of the types of instruments that are played together for a study of quality and tone color.

Just amazing, Gary. This type of a program will help so many people and when the word gets out, many more will become GPO users and join a community, the likes of which, the world has never seen.

REALLY GREAT, GARY............

Jack

Rhap2

03-28-2006, 09:11 PM

Gary:

Another thought......

A lot of people can read TREBLE and BASS clef music, but are not adept at reading transposed instruments.

I would say to show the examples in CONCERT SCORE, but that would be too much of a task for reprinting, etc.

What could be done is to show on the LEFT HAND SIDE of the orchestration how many notes UP or DOWN (+) or (-) the reader will have to visualize in order to understand what NOTES (PITCHES) the instrument is REALLY playing (sounding). Just an idea for those that have no idea what a Bb instrument, etc. is really playing.........

Also, I guess somewhere along the way I downloaded a "flash player" as my Toshiba PC works wonderfully with all of the examples you have displayed in the Chapter II example.

WOW. This is going to be great. I will be willing to help any (or all) people that have questions about instrument transposition, clefs, etc. as the need arises. I'm sure other orchestration buffs will be willing to do the same. I've gotta share my academic experiences somehow and this is a perfect way to do it. Using it for just myself is just plain selfish.

This is such a great undertaking, but such a worthwhile project. I can just see the excitement in so many peoples minds as they anticipate the emergence of such an undertaking. God bless you, Gary. This idea is exemplary.......

Jack

Journeyman

03-28-2006, 10:25 PM

If possible, non-transposed scores would be wonderful!

Garritan

03-28-2006, 10:56 PM

What do you think of this format for the course:

EDIT: Deleted since some browsers caused all the examples to play at once resulting in a cacophony and causing seizures.

We'll try to correct it.

Rhap2

03-28-2006, 11:44 PM

Gary:

OUTSTANDING

Jack

snorlax

03-29-2006, 12:36 AM

Gary,

EGAD, he said, mimicing a viola player trying (and failing) to remember the names of the strings, this is amazing!!!!! I don't log in for a day or so & look what I miss!!

Count me in if you wish as a beta learner AND I can contribute some knowledge of at least one instrument sometimes used in orchestras after R-K's time, and I am probably one of a half-dozen people here who knows what instrument Ravel REALLY had in mind for Bydlo in Pictures at an Exhibition and who knows which "tuba" parts were really ophecleide parts. (or who knows what an ophecleide is.

PS: NEXT STEP=GARY LINDSAY'S JAZZ ARRANGING TEXT

Jim

KeithW

03-29-2006, 01:22 AM

Gary:

OUTSTANDING

Jack
DITTO! For those of us late-forties-who-should-have-gotten-a-music-degree-while-still-college-age types, this is utterly fantastic. And, while you're at it, maybe you can get Tom to convince Gary Lindsay to do a JABB version of his textbook.

The format is great, too.

Keith Walls

ALynn

03-29-2006, 01:25 AM

As amazing as this is, and as wonderful a tool it will be for many people, I can't help but fulfill my civic duty as a horn player and thus point out that the R-K Principles are somewhat outdated in many respects, especially in regards to brass technique.

As much as I enjoy listening to R-K's music, he never was very fond of the horn for whatever reason and often neglected it entirely. Must have been some sub-par hornists in Russia in his heyday. ;)

Perhaps a disclaimer could be issued: "Warning: G. Mahler and R. Strauss would disagree with much of Nikolai's opinions on this instrument." :D

Kidding aside, I vote for the thumbnails to open in a new window. My browser is wanting to play all of the examples on the page at the same time in the newest version you posted with the embeded scores. It's like "An American (namely Charles Ives) in St. Petersburg" on PC... :)

valhalx

03-29-2006, 01:27 AM

OK, so I came here with the intention of seeing what's new then doing a Google for music theory. What do I find? Gary's putting the Rimsky-Korsakov text online in an interactive format. Fantastic! Gary, one more brilliant idea like this and someone will have to give you an honorary degree in genius. I just hope all of the future posts in the Listening Room don't take on a Rimsky-Korsakov flavor, LOL. I think the format with the large score (as opposed to thumbnails) is much preferable.
Bill

etLux

03-29-2006, 01:32 AM

What do you think of this format for the course(?)

<NITPICKING>

I would suggest staying with the Georgia font (rather than sans serif) for the GPO Exercise sections, at full text size. These I find very difficult to read, as is; yet these are the sections readers will need to examine in detail and with the greatest ease, I think.

In the forum page presentation, text also runs out of page [divisional layer clipping] on the right in some places (at least on my 1024-pixel-wide screen). Presumably, in a regular web page designed for this, that would not be a problem.

However, it does bring up the general issue of page and screen width in web presentation; a subject of much study amongst designers. The general concensus is that overly wide text presentations become difficult to read for most people. At this text sizing -- which is, in general, nicely readable -- most designers would probably agree that a tabled width of 740 pixels would be a maximum, as it more readily approximates page layout as practiced in physical text (books).

Font choices may also need a little investigation. While Georgia font -- excellent for readability -- is fairly standard now on Windows machines; I believe that may not be present on Apple platforms. (Perhaps one of our Apple users can confirm that.). The TimesRoman font, the secondary choice in the face tagging, has a narrower vertical aspect and would not be so easily read.

Also, for some reason -- I believe this may be an artifact of the inflexiblility of the forum's PHP-based tag -- when I re-enter the page, *all* of the examples start running at once. Now, as an Ives lover, for me that's just heavenly; however, it might be somewhat distracting for others to absorb all of them simultaneously. Perhaps Sean can shut off the autostart in the .swf's -- possibly the cause, though I'm not quite sure on that.

</NITPICKING>

Other than my nit-picking, though -- the format is, on the overall, looking great!

My best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com (http://www.DavidSosnowski.com)
.

Garritan

03-29-2006, 02:43 AM

Thanks David for picking those nits that needed picking.

Your suggestion of font is a good one. In my browser everything is in the same pane and doesn't run to the right. I think that different browsers and different screen resolutions may make text appear off the screen. You may be right about this being a result of the forum's PHP-based tag. Autoplay is not activated on my browser but for some reason with some browsers it is causing quite a cacophony. I'll delete the latest example until we work out these nits. Appreciate the comments.

Gary
<NITPICKING>

I would suggest staying with the Georgia font (rather than sans serif) for the GPO Exercise sections, at full text size. These I find very difficult to read, as is; yet these are the sections readers will need to examine in detail and with the greatest ease, I think.

In the forum page presentation, text also runs out of page [divisional layer clipping] on the right in some places (at least on my 1024-pixel-wide screen). Presumably, in a regular web page designed for this, that would not be a problem.

However, it does bring up the general issue of page and screen width in web presentation; a subject of much study amongst designers. The general concensus is that overly wide text presentations become difficult to read for most people. At this text sizing -- which is, in general, nicely readable -- most designers would probably agree that a tabled width of 740 pixels would be a maximum, as it more readily approximates page layout as practiced in physical text (books).

Font choices may also need a little investigation. While Georgia font -- excellent for readability -- is fairly standard now on Windows machines; I believe that may not be present on Apple platforms. (Perhaps one of our Apple users can confirm that.). The TimesRoman font, the secondary choice in the face tagging, has a narrower vertical aspect and would not be so easily read.

Also, for some reason -- I believe this may be an artifact of the inflexiblility of the forum's PHP-based tag -- when I re-enter the page, *all* of the examples start running at once. Now, as an Ives lover, for me that's just heavenly; however, it might be somewhat distracting for others to absorb all of them simultaneously. Perhaps Sean can shut off the autostart in the .swf's -- possibly the cause, though I'm not quite sure on that.

</NITPICKING>

Other than my nit-picking, though -- the format is, on the overall, looking great!

My best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com (http://www.DavidSosnowski.com)
.

giwro_jon

03-29-2006, 02:58 AM

Gary, this is a GREAT idea!

I know I'm echoing others when I say it, but it is true.

I'm not sure what help you might need, but if you find that you need any, don't hesitate to ask.

I can certainly render short little examples like this for you in Finale if you need it...

*****

This may go beyond the scope of RK, but when GPOrgan comes out I'd be happy to write you a basic primer on organ tone and composing for the organ, complete with musical examples....

*****

I can see it now... GICOM - Garritan Internet Conservatory of Music :D:D

You rock, dude!:samurai:

SeanHannifin

03-29-2006, 03:15 AM

Perhaps Sean can shut off the autostart in the .swf's -- possibly the cause, though I'm not quite sure on that.
Hmmm... that's strange... the files themselves are actually set to do the exact opposite, i.e. be paused on start. However, this may affected by the browser and the fact that here they were being embedded in the forum.

In the pop-up window examples, a seperate HTML file was opened which contained playback information as well:

<embed src="No1.swf" play="false"

Perhaps some browsers can understand the Flash file's pause command, while other browsers need to get that instruction from the HTML tag itself. For this reason, perhaps pop-up windows will be the only solution when the lessons are posted on this forum. If the lesson is on a separate webpage, one can simply include the necessary HTML tags.

Journeyman

03-29-2006, 09:39 AM

jcbryson1

03-29-2006, 01:44 PM

Gary,

Please let me reiterate what Jim touched on above:

If you could somehow do something similar to this for Jazz horn and woodwind writing, that would be of enormous use to me. (Even moreso than this R-K study.) Many thanks!

Ditto that. Of course the Gary Lindsay course mentioned earlier would be terrific :) I've also been working through David Baker's "Arranging and Composing for the Small Ensemble: Jazz, R & B, Jazz Rock" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0882844695/qid=1143649109/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-3933037-8321703?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 I don't have JABB yet, but think this would be very complimentary to the Lindsay book.

But I very much look forward to putting in the time on the R-K study. It's been a few years since I took Orchestration and this will be a great jump start to getting back into it seriously. Thanks again, Gary.

Jon

Cantabile

03-29-2006, 05:18 PM

Gary:

What could be done is to show on the LEFT HAND SIDE of the orchestration how many notes UP or DOWN (+) or (-) the reader will have to visualize in order to understand what NOTES (PITCHES) the instrument is REALLY playing (sounding). Just an idea for those that have no idea what a Bb instrument, etc. is really playing.........

Jack
Though a good idea, it would be very time consuming most likely as Rk has over 275 examples not to mention even more in the next chapters dealing with choirs and whatnot.

People will eventually "have" to learn this so why not start at the beginning? Charts can be made rather simply of transposing instruments. This is part orchestration and the knowledge of it. I hope I do not sound blunt as that is not my intention.

Cantabile

03-29-2006, 05:25 PM

Garritan

03-29-2006, 05:55 PM

EDIT: I posted the full flash scores but deleted them since some browsers caused all the examples to play at once resulting in a cacophony and causing seizures.We'll try to correct it. Let's try this again. Do all four flash files play at once? If so can you let me know your browswer? If this doens't work we'll go with Plan A with the pop-up thumbnail scores.OK - Not working in all browsers. Back to Plan A.

jcbryson1

03-29-2006, 06:50 PM

All 4 play at once in my browser, but not the first time I visited the page, only if I revisit the page later. IE Explorer 6.0.2900.2180.xpsp_sp2_gdr.050301-1519CO

Hope that is helpful.

Jon

SeanHannifin

03-29-2006, 07:01 PM

All 4 play at once in my browser, but not the first time I visited the page, only if I revisit the page later. IE Explorer 6.0.2900.2180.xpsp_sp2_gdr.050301-1519CO
Hmmm.... this is happening to me too. Also, after I clear my Temporary Internet Files they will be paused at start again. Perhaps this is the root of the problem? When the flash files are loaded from the end-user's Temporary Internet Files folder, they automatically begin playing?

Strange stuff... :confused:

Rhap2

03-29-2006, 08:32 PM

Gary:

I'm with Sean. All playing at once with Internet Explorer (v. 6, 2900.2). The thumbnails worked perfectly. Hope this helps.

Jack

Garritan

03-29-2006, 08:56 PM

Gary:

I'm with Sean. All playing at once with Internet Explorer (v. 6, 2900.2). The thumbnails worked perfectly. Hope this helps.

JackOK - Not working in all browsers. Back to Plan A.

etLux

03-29-2006, 10:06 PM

Hmmm.... this is happening to me too. Also, after I clear my Temporary Internet Files they will be paused at start again. Perhaps this is the root of the problem? When the flash files are loaded from the end-user's Temporary Internet Files folder, they automatically begin playing?

Strange stuff... :confused:

My guess is you need to pick up the initial onload event and throw a .stop() on everything in sight... so the instant the .swf tells the Flash object interpreter it is there, it halts everything.

Sean, if you would like to send me the files for a couple of these, I'd be happy to take a look, see if I can spot it. No guarantees... but hey, I might get lucky... lol.

I have ulterior motives, of course. I'd far rather see these inline in the pages than in popups... easier to follow that way, overall, I think -- not to mention the practical problem of dealing with the ubiquitous popup blockers.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

wrayer

03-30-2006, 10:19 AM

I have ulterior motives, of course. I'd far rather see these inline in the pages than in popups... easier to follow that way, overall, I think -- not to mention the practical problem of dealing with the ubiquitous popup blockers.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com (http://www.DavidSosnowski.com)
.

I agree with David, I would rather see inline examples then pop-ups.

I really like this idea, I think there is an academic market for this. A college would love to have something like this available to their students. I have used the book in my orchestration lessons, and it is a wonderfull book. But, hearing it in the "head" while looking at the page is difficult. Here, you can see and hear all at the same time as you study the concept. BRILLIANT IDEA!

I am always amazed at the wealth of information I find here in this forum! THANK YOU GARY!

ptram

03-30-2006, 10:25 AM

Gary, What to say? This project is simply fantastic!
Paolo

Styxx

03-30-2006, 11:06 AM

This is very exciting!:D:D

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I have been too embarrassed to admit this (though, I’m sure anyone who has heard my music can tell), that my music reading skills are almost non-existent. I bought some books on orchestration, but the examples might as well have been written in a Cyrillic translation of Chinese
This may help you bud. No offense to the Chinese intended.

Learn Chinese in 5 Minutes

That's not right...
Sum Ting Wong

Are you harboring a fugitive?...
Hu Yu Hai Ding?

See me ASAP...
Kum Hia Nao

Stupid Man...
Dum Gai

Small Horse...
Tai Ni Po Ni

Did you go to the beach?...
Wai Yu So Tan?

I bumped into a coffee table...
Ai Bang Mai Ni

I think you need a face lift...
Chin Tu Fat

It's very dark in here...
Wai So Dim?

I thought you were on a diet...
Wai Yu Mun Ching?

This is a tow away zone...
No Pah King

Our meeting is scheduled for next week...
Wai Yu Kum Nao?

Staying out of sight...
Lei Ying Lo

He's cleaning his automobile...
Wa Shing Ka

Your body odor is offensive...
Yu Stin Ki Pu
:D

Skysaw

03-30-2006, 12:49 PM

A lot of people can read TREBLE and BASS clef music, but are not adept at reading transposed instruments.
These are two separate issues, and should not be confused. For example, violas should always be written in alto clef (except for extremely high passages). High bassoon, cello, and trombone parts should always be written in tenor clef. None of these instruments is transposing, and it is much easier to learn these clefs than to learn to read four+ledger lines deep. On the other side you have piccolo, contrabass, contrabassoon, guitar, and glockenspiel as examples of instruments that transpose by an octave, yet even in "non-transposing" scores they are normally written transposed.

I would say to show the examples in CONCERT SCORE, but that would be too much of a task for reprinting, etc.

What could be done is to show on the LEFT HAND SIDE of the orchestration how many notes UP or DOWN (+) or (-) the reader will have to visualize in order to understand what NOTES (PITCHES) the instrument is REALLY playing (sounding). Just an idea for those that have no idea what a Bb instrument, etc. is really playing.........
I have no problem with scores written in C. It was good enough for Prokofiev and Schoenberg, and many composers today prepare their scores that way. However, transposing scores are still the norm, and some of us actually have more trouble reading in C than transposed! If there is a "score in C" option to see the music, it should not be the default.

On the other hand, it would be a good option, and not difficult to prepare if the other examples were already entered in a notation program. A little button that said "concert pitch" that toggled the two versions would be a nice addition, but I would hope it should be a low priority.

Karl Garrett

03-30-2006, 01:15 PM

An open letter to Gary:

Please excuse me while I mix my posts.

Hi Gary,

For a number of reasons I haven't been able to check in hear for several days. It's funny how being away from here leaves me with an emptiness in my spirit. So many things are happening… Wow!

I want to put in a big thank you to Robert Davis for his incredible renderings of these scores. They are magnificent. When he first started to realize them, he would occasionally send me a file. I was always just blown asunder by their realism and sensitivity. It is just amazing to witness what is becoming of these little gems. This is really such an exciting adventure. Sean’s presentation is great. I wish I had his Flash skills. Bravo to all of you.

Gary, in another thread I noticed you asked how you were doing. I don't know how you manage to keep up with all of us here. That in itself for me would be a full-time job. You somehow keep releasing libraries; work on your business connections and associations; prepare, create, and execute your marketing strategies; pay your bills and taxes, keep your computer from catching it's death of cold; eat; sleep; (well I know you don't do that) play your harp; go on long, moonlight walks with Marianne; etc. It just makes me want to take a nap thinking about it.

I am sure that I am speaking for many here in saying that you are a marvelous inspiration to us who know and care about you. I am very proud to know you. Your life is a living testament to those who would like to not only achieve higher artistic and business goals, but for me, knowing you, is seeing the realization of all that is good in humanity.

God bless you, Marianne, and your children, and their families and so on and so on. :)

Karl,

boten

03-30-2006, 02:28 PM

Gary, this is an awesome idea. I'm surely going to be counting myself in. I just finished some high level orchestration theory from Paul Gilreath book.

Sepheritoh

03-30-2006, 03:43 PM

Wonderfull. The next best thing since the wheel!!!

Rhap2

03-30-2006, 03:59 PM

Hi Jamie:

You wrote:

These are two separate issues, and should not be confused. For example, violas should always be written in alto clef (except for extremely high passages). High bassoon, cello, and trombone parts should always be written in tenor clef. None of these instruments is transposing, and it is much easier to learn these clefs than to learn to read four+ledger lines deep. On the other side you have piccolo, contrabass, contrabassoon, guitar, and glockenspiel as examples of instruments that transpose by an octave, yet even in "non-transposing" scores they are normally written transposed.

I totally agree that teaching orchestration score reading skills should be done in the strict academic way. We both understand that; however, to make it less daunting for "new" readers I just suggested, while they are learning the correct way to approach a transposed score, that a "little crutch" be annotated on the LH side of the score for each instrument (up or down so many notes (+) or (-)) so that the reader could visualize what notes the instruments were actually SOUNDING.

I just felt that having to learn all the clefs and transposition of instruments BEFORE you could read a score would be a disadvantage, motivationally. I do not propose "crutches" in a true learning situation, but a lot of our community musicians would be motivated to become more adept at score reading if they could use something in the beginning to make the process less frustrating. Maybe we need more ideas along this line to achieve our objective for new score readers.

Just a suggestion...........

Regards,

Jack

giwro_jon

03-30-2006, 04:09 PM

I remember the days when I had to copy parts by hand, and do all of the darn transpositions

Grrr...

I learned it the "right" way, and I <still> think it is ridiculous...

So, as a COMPOSER I write in a non-transposed score, but as a conductor, I prefer the "old" way. Call me weird, but that's just how my mind works.

:D

Rhap2

03-30-2006, 05:21 PM

I think a lot of professional musicians do the same thing you do, giwro_jon. If one doesn't do a LOT of writing, it seems easier to write in concert pitch so that you can better "visualize" the melodic lines and harmonic progressions. Then, when the score is transposed for the conductor, he feels at home as he is used to conducting from transposed scores.

From my recent readings on the subject of "Orchestral Scores," I was surprised to see the number of composers that are jumping ship and converting to "C" Scores. Don't quite understand why unless their foundation in transposed scores was insufficient or not a common, daily practice.

Jack

Robert M

04-01-2006, 06:19 AM

Just in case there aren't enough comments to this effect so far:

Count Me In!

I feel that I'm quite firmly at square one in terms of theory, orchestration, arranging, and would appreciate as much help as I can find to get the sounds in my head down onto paper (or, with GPO and JABB, sequenced).

RickMcGowan

04-01-2006, 03:08 PM

Very good idea putting out Rimsky-Korsakov's principles with sound examples. I would personally rather have it on a CD that I could order and use off-line.

Garritan

04-02-2006, 05:35 PM

*******HELP WANTED*******

I could use some help with notation/copying.

Many of the illustrations were taken from a very old text.

We could use help in taking some of the scanned images and make them into clean graphics using Finale, Sibelius, Overture or other notation program.

Any volunteers? If so, please let me know.

thanks,

Gary

dbudde

04-02-2006, 08:09 PM

It would be a pleasure to help in any way I can.

Garritan

04-03-2006, 12:23 AM

It would be a pleasure to help in any way I can.Thanks so much David. I emailed a few files to you.
Much appreciated.
Gary Garritan

snorlax

04-03-2006, 02:34 AM

Thanks so much David. I emailed a few files to you.
Much appreciated.
Gary Garritan
Now that tax time is over, I can handle a couple.

Jim

giwro_jon

04-03-2006, 02:40 AM

*******HELP WANTED*******

I could use some help with notation/copying.

I'll take a couple...

:)

Skysaw

04-03-2006, 02:58 AM

I could use some help with notation/copying.

Many of the illustrations were taken from a very old text.

We could use help in taking some of the scanned images and make them into clean graphics using Finale, Sibelius, Overture or other notation program.
I can do a few as well. I use Sibelius, and can also save as pdf files. Feel free to let me know what I can do to contribute.

etLux

04-03-2006, 03:51 AM

Sure sure sure... willing to give it a shot.

Many hands make a light load, and so on.

Have Finale, of course; and can PDF; also graphics editors... let me know what you want for format.

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

rwayland

04-03-2006, 04:33 AM

Gary, you can send me some.

Richard

tcohen

04-03-2006, 11:34 AM

I'll try some as well if you're still looking, Gary.

Regards,

Tim

Tangram

04-03-2006, 11:39 AM

I would be glad to help you with this.
In what format do you want the result, pdf, jpg or....?

/Mats

efiebke

04-03-2006, 01:50 PM

O. K. This is how much formal orchestration I've experienced. I never even knew that Rimsky-Korsakov wrote such a book. :o :o

This passionate "hobbyist" wants to thank you for even considering such a project. I am sincerely impressed and grateful for what seems to be a group effort in creating this teaching tool. This tool is going to be helpful for a lot of people!

Thank you. . . .

Edited to add: Also, I'd be willing to help out with the process! Sounds like fun! :)

Just sent you a message. . .

pianodoc

04-03-2006, 04:41 PM

Garritan

04-03-2006, 06:10 PM

I appreciate the offer. Can you please email or PM me your emails so I can attach some of the files.

Much appreciated,

gary

rikp

04-03-2006, 06:34 PM

Bob De Celle

04-04-2006, 01:04 AM

Andy Brick

04-09-2006, 10:45 PM

Hello everyone!

Gary has asked if I would help moderate this online course and I am happy to announce that I would be delighted to do so.

I look forward to getting started and getting to know the course participants better. I would also like to thank Gary again for such an amazing learning tool!

All my best regards,

Andy Brick

steve martin

04-10-2006, 07:21 AM

Hi Gary,

If you can make the scanned images into pdf copies, I can open these PDF copies into my Neuratron Photoscore Professional software. It scans them, without me physically having to scan them into a machine. I then just have to to edit them for mistakes etc.
Once they are edited, I then press a button, and hey, presto, they open up in Sibelius 4. . Once in Sibelius, I can then turn them into a pdf copy.

best wishes,

Steve Martin.

rwayland

04-10-2006, 05:21 PM

Garritan

04-11-2006, 01:36 AM

Garritan

04-11-2006, 01:41 AM

Gary:

I'll be glad to notate as much as I can if you need. I use Finale and if you email a score alomg with any information I might need to provide it as you want it (fonts and such). I'll contribute to the course in this way.

Thanks again for presenting this course.

David MauneyDavid, Thanks for the offer. Can you please email or private message me and let me know where I can send some files to.

Best,

Gary Garritan

Garritan

04-11-2006, 02:00 AM

This is another test.

Please let me know if the scores play automatically when the thread is open (autostart) or whether you have to hit the play button. Hopefully they will not play automatically.

[edit: test ended]

etLux

04-11-2006, 02:03 AM

They do not start automatically when the page is first opened.

When you go to another page and return, alas, I shudder to mention it, I know it's driving several people buggy -- they DO START AUTOMATICALLY, both of them.

Tested on Windows XP/Pro/sp2 IE6.

Note that this occurs in IE but not in FireFox. Go figure.

My best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

Rhap2

04-11-2006, 02:35 AM

Yes, they ALL start automatically. Turned them off and went to post this message and while I was typing, they started again.

Jack

Garritan

04-11-2006, 03:01 AM

When you go to another page and return, alas, I shudder to mention it, I know it's driving several people buggy -- they DO START AUTOMATICALLY, both of them..
This is driving me crazy! :confused:

http://www.garritan.com/pictures/crazy_man.gif

etLux

04-11-2006, 03:10 AM

This is driving me crazy! :confused:

http://www.garritan.com/pictures/crazy_man.gif

See my email of 4/9/06 entitled "Alice, Ginger... and Seans's Flash".

I've researched this. It's a well-known problem without a good solution other than tactics such as I outlined.

See also, for instance... http://flashmx2004.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5940 -- which outlines a similar approach, but internalizes it to be handled by a listener object in a latter frame.

~

Another approach I just quickly tested on a breadboard is to create essential objects dynamically when the Play button is clicked. That way, the needed parts simply don't exist, and cannot be started, until the button is clicked.

Best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

SeanHannifin

04-11-2006, 05:15 AM

Ugh.... how annoying... :samurai: It looks like they're somehow looping themselves too... :confused:

Aquarius

04-11-2006, 07:45 AM

The first time I entered this thread I had to push the play button, but then when I revisited this thread the music started automatically. (both examples at the same time.)

So I removed my temporarily internet files and then I got the same result. The first time I had to push the play button, but when revisited they start to play automatically at the same time.

Hope this was helpful.

Thomas

PS. I think this a fantastic projekt.:)

I´m using XP and IE 6.0.200.1106

steve martin

04-11-2006, 09:01 AM

Hi Gary,

They are playing fine on my pc. Both of them did not start automatically.
When I finished listening to the first one, I then went to the second one and hit play and it was fine. I double checked this a couple of times.

I've also just sent you the first scored example as a PDF from the 3 you sent me. I'll also work on the others and get them sent to you.

best regards,

Steve.

Hajo

04-11-2006, 10:16 AM

Hello,

on my side NO problems:
on a mac (OSX) with Safari and Firefox (1.5.0.1)
on a pc (Windows XP) with Firefox (1.5.0.1)
on a pc (Linux) with Firefox (1.5.0.1)

Hajo

Karl Garrett

04-11-2006, 03:42 PM

Hello,

on my side NO problems:
on a mac (OSX) with Safari and Firefox (1.5.0.1)
on a pc (Linux) with Firefox (1.5.0.1)

Hajo
Gary,

I've had no problems with it either with a similar configuration.

Now when can I grab that little red line and drag it back over a few notes just to.... :D Just kidding. Hope you all get things ironed out.

Karl

rikp

04-11-2006, 07:08 PM

Gary,

I've had no problems with it either with a similar configuration.

Now when can I grab that little red line and drag it back over a few notes just to.... :D Just kidding. Hope you all get things ironed out.

Karl

Same for me, no problems. Mac OSX 10.4.6, Safari.

Peace

rikp

Rhap2

04-12-2006, 01:13 PM

It's still a problem for my setup: Windows XP/Home/ sp2 IE 6.xx

I'm not familiar with Firefox, so I don't know if that is the problem or not.

Jack

thesoundsmith

04-12-2006, 05:39 PM

Works fine in Firefox - exit and return does not restart, plays correctly no lopop. XP P2, AMD 2200(?)

In IE, plays correctly 1st X, exit and return, both play simulataneously...

Collin

04-12-2006, 05:59 PM

Boy the page change is cool. Firefox = no problem

SeanHannifin

04-13-2006, 01:58 AM

eh... nevermind... :o

Rhap2

04-13-2006, 03:02 AM

Aquarius

04-13-2006, 08:56 AM

The example at this link works fine.

http://garritan.com/RK/No1.htm

It doesn't come on when the page is accessed
All buttons respond as they should
I'm using IE6 and also Yahoo (Yahoo primarily) with Windows XP/sp2

Jack

The link/example seems to work for me too.
It didn´t start to play automatically.
I´m using IE6 XP/sp1.

Thomas

Garritan

04-19-2006, 05:57 PM

The course is coming along fine and we should be live by the end of the month.

Does anyone want to help with notating some full scores in Finale, Sibelius, Overture?

Gary Garritan

wst3ae

04-19-2006, 07:20 PM

Sure... sign me up for one or two... I use Finale2006, if that matters.

Bill

snorlax

04-19-2006, 08:18 PM

The course is coming along fine and we should be live by the end of the month.

Does anyone want to help with notating some full scores in Finale, Sibelius, Overture?

Gary Garritan
Whaddya got? I can do Finale 2006 or Overture 4.
How full is full?

Jim

wrayer

04-20-2006, 12:11 AM

Sure, I'll help. Send me some stuff!

Collin

04-20-2006, 09:02 AM

I have overture 4. What would you send ? PDF?

Mitch Manthe

04-20-2006, 04:57 PM

I'd like to say that this course has helped me already! :p I'm not very knowledgable about writing for strings (being a euphonium/trombone, french horn, tuba, clarinet type person myself) and by looking over the samples you have in this thread I realized I could have chords for violins I and for violins II and so on and so forth. Here I've been writing five part harmony between the violins, viola, cello and contrabass all this time and my music seemed rather empty! Now it sounds so much better. Thanks. Your course is a real eye opener!:eek: :D

Journeyman

04-20-2006, 05:00 PM

Mitch,

I'd like to better understand your post. Please explain it more clearly to someone who's even more of an orchestral newbie than you. Thanks.

Mitch Manthe

04-20-2006, 05:32 PM

Journeyman

04-20-2006, 05:37 PM

Mitch,

Thanks for the clarification. I guess that one of the questions this course will answer would be how the same 5 note chord would sound using those two different voicing techniques (one note per section or splitting sections).

Jeff Turner

04-20-2006, 07:44 PM

Simply put, I use Finale 2006 and if my part called for chorded violins I would write one note of the chord in the Violin I part, another note of the chord in Violin II, another in Viola, another in Cello and another in the Contrabass. Little did I realize that I could have written a two to three note chord in the Violin I section, a completely different chord in the Violin II section. So now iinstead of only five notes being playing at once in the string section I could now have around 8-10 voices.
The Violin I and II sections can be split up into multiple parts which I had always wondered about but have never had the training or education for strings to know for sure. The samples in this post proved I could do multiple voices in one string section and I went and bought the book this course is based on to read up more on what I've been missing. I've got a lot more reading to do!:o

Mitch,

That's "divisi" writing. When a violin section sees that, they will normally split with half of the fiddles taking the upper part, half taking the lower. When writing for live players, you can specify how to divide the lines. Maybe you want the top line emphasized more than the lower, so in a 10 player section, you could have 6 or 7 on top and the others on the bottom. Same thing with a 3 way divisi.

You can also have each player play both notes at a time. This is a "double stop". This approach isn't quite as flexible as divisi writing. You need to be aware of each string instrument's string and fingering layout so you don't write a double stop that's techinically impossible to play.

Lot's to learn. So little time.

Jeff

dgilchrist977@msn.co

04-21-2006, 03:07 AM

I have always wanted to write orchestrations since I was a child. The problem was that I had no real formal education in writing music. I did play in band (Trombone!) and I do understand sheet music, but I mainly play the piano and guitar all by ear. Garritan and modern technology have now made it possible for me to actually write the music, listen to it, and make any corrections right at my fingertips! :eek: And I don't have to even read music! And now you want to GIVE a FREE! course on composition that allows you to see and hear the music right here in the privacy of my own home! Incredible.
All I can say is please do this. I would be so ever grateful. I just can't believe it. People, we live in incredible times.

Sincerely and respectfuly,
David Gilchrist

dgilchrist977@msn.co

04-21-2006, 03:09 AM

[QUOTE=dgilchrist977@msn.co]I have always wanted to write orchestrations since I was a child. The problem was that I had no real formal education in writing music. I did play in band (Trombone!) and I do understand sheet music, but I mainly play the piano and guitar all by ear. Garritan and modern technology have now made it possible for me to actually write the music, listen to it, and make any corrections right at my fingertips! :eek: And I don't have to even read music! And now you want to GIVE a FREE! course on composition that allows you to see and hear the music right here in the privacy of my own home! Incredible.
All I can say is please do this. I would be so ever grateful. I just can't believe it. People, we live in incredible times.

Sincerely and respectfuly,
David Gilchrist

Nickie Fønshauge

04-21-2006, 06:07 AM

Does anyone want to help with notating some full scores in Finale, Sibelius, Overture?

Full scores? You mean complete symphonies etc.?:eek:

Leaf

05-05-2006, 01:35 PM

I haven't read the whole thread yet, just page one so far, but i definately want to take this course, exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks Gary.:)

edit: ok i read it, also thanks very much to everyone else who is invoved in this project.

Leaf

05-07-2006, 05:09 AM

When I click on the example midi or the tutorial html right below it, i get this error message from "internet services."

There was an error accessing that File!
It is either out dated or has moved.
To remedy, simply start at the main web address of the site you were accessing.
(example: http://www.xyz.com instead of http://www.xyz.com/somepage.html)
OR Click HERE to let us know about the problem!
Please include the exact error and page you were accessing!

I'm using a Mac with Safari browswer, and everything works except those links. When i used a linux computer earlier, that has firefox browswer, the music scores and the buttons to play were not showing, but i think that was because the linux was missing something, not because it was firefox.

seanmccoy

05-07-2006, 09:17 PM

I'm a bit late adding my enthusiastic voice to this idea, but if it's of any help the examples play just fine for me in XP using Netscape 8.1 (which is Firefox based). I didn't see any other mentions of Netscape in the thread. What's the latest ETA for the course to become available?

Styxx

05-11-2006, 11:25 AM

Is It Soup Yet? :D

Garritan

05-11-2006, 08:50 PM

Course Syllabus
(subject to change)

Welcome to the Garritan Interactive PRINCIPLES OF ORCHESTRATION by Rimsky-Korsakov
Lesson 1 - GENERAL REVIEW - Strings & Woodwinds
Lesson 2 - GENERAL REVIEW - Brass, Percussion & Other Instruments
Lesson 3 - MELODY - Strings - Melody in Stringed Instruments
Lesson 4 - MELODY - Strings - Grouping in Unison
Lesson 5 - MELODY - Strings - Doubling, Thirds & Sixths
Lesson 6 - MELODY - Wood-wind - Melody in Wood-wind
Lesson 7 - MELODY - Wood-wind - Unison & Octaves
Lesson 8 - MELODY - Brass - Melody, Unisons & Octaves
Lesson 9 - MELODY - Different Groups of Instruments Combined
Lesson 10 - MELODY - Different Groups of Instruments (Cont.)
Lesson 11 - HARMONY - General Observations
Lesson 12 - HARMONY - String Harmony
Lesson 13 - HARMONY - Wood-wind Harmony
Lesson 14 - HARMONY - Wood-wind - Several Parts & Duplication
Lesson 15 - HARMONY - Brass Harmony
Lesson 16 - HARMONY - Combined Groups - Wind & Brass
Lesson 17 - HARMONY - Combined Groups - Wind & Brass (cont.)
Lesson 18 - HARMONY - Combined Groups - Strings & Wind, Three Groups
Lesson 19 - COMPOSITION - Orchestrating the Same Music
Lesson 20 - COMPOSITION - Tutti
Lesson 21 - COMPOSITION - Soli
Lesson 22 - COMPOSITION - Range Limits, Transference, Alternating Chords
Lesson 23 - COMPOSITION - Volume of Tone Qualities, Repetition, Sfz, Emphasis
Lesson 24 - COMPOSITION - Cresencdo and Diminuendo
Lesson 25 - COMPOSITION - Effects, Rhythm & Color
Lesson 26 - VOICE & ORCHESTRA - General Overview

Rhap2

05-11-2006, 08:55 PM

Gary:

What do we do after the first THREE days of study?

Garritan

05-11-2006, 08:57 PM

Gary:

What do we do after the first THREE days of study?I don't understand ? ? ?

wes37

05-11-2006, 08:59 PM

Gary,

Please lock the course thread and have a subsection for Q&A. If replies are allowed with the course material thread it will become difficult to navigate from one section to another. One other idea would be to have a different post for each lesson (as stickies).

Arrivederci
Wes

Rhap2

05-11-2006, 11:48 PM

Gary:

Just a joke of thinking a person could complete the whole course in 3 days. A great syllabus, though, Gary.

I guess I didn't make myself clear on this one.:o

Jack

Garritan

05-11-2006, 11:57 PM

Gary:

Just a joke of thinking a person could complete the whole course in 3 days. A great syllabus, though, Gary.

I guess I didn't make myself clear on this one.:o

JackHa!! I am a little slow today :rolleyes:

Three days!!:eek: I think it is going to be months to get through all this material.

We start soon :)

Gary

Rhap2

05-12-2006, 12:05 AM

Gary:

What productive months to look forward to.

This is so great because it will be priceless for beginners and intermediate music students, but it is also very pertinent to orchestrators and composers who have had formal training and much experience writing.

We can always learn something new and RK is the man to learn from.

Kudos on this benevolent and priceless idea........

Jack

koolkeys

05-13-2006, 03:02 AM

Gary, will this be a self-paced course?

Thank you for the generosity!

Garritan

05-14-2006, 01:14 AM

Gary, will this be a self-paced course?

Thank you for the generosity!koolkeys,

We will provide a lesson or two every week. However, learners can come in at any time and go through the series of Lessons. You will be able to learn at your own pace.

Gary Garritan

koolkeys

05-17-2006, 11:54 PM

That sounds good Gary! Thank you! So you don't have to be there from the beginning(I will be there though)?

Thanks so much again!

Koolkeys

snorlax

05-18-2006, 12:33 AM

koolkeys,

We will provide a lesson or two every week. However, learners can come in at any time and go through the series of Lessons. You will be able to learn at your own pace.

Gary Garritan

You need more Finale work? I have a bit of slack time until the first of June.
Jim

Bod

08-13-2006, 02:21 PM

Dear Garry

Sure Your Name Will Remain After Years On The Top Of 21 Century Educators. Congratulations And Thanks

Garritan

08-14-2006, 01:19 AM

Dear Garry

Sure Your Name Will Remain After Years On The Top Of 21 Century Educators. Congratulations And ThanksThanks Bod,
The credit goes to many people who have worked tirelessly ro make this happen. Welcome to the course and I hope your musical life is enriched by this course. Looking forward to your participation.

Gary Garritan