VI Orchestral Strings vs. SISS?

[MDesigner]

I'm going to be looking to get another string library soon. Before I get opinions on this, I'll tell you what I currently have and what I like/dislike about each one:

GOS:
Likes: violin grand sustains are "epic", nice vibrato (espressivo) on violins, pizzicatos are warm
Dislikes: too much of a "signature" sound (GOS is too easily identifiable in a mix), cello/bass aggressive staccatos are still too weak (not sharp enough), legato tool doesn't sound realistic

Opus 1 & 2:
Likes: strings are "crisp" and not as washed out as GOS, muted strings rock, staccatos are SHARP and fast
Dislikes: violins sustains lack life and are flat-sounding, pizzicatos are too "woody"/clicky, legato on some strings is VERY jumpy/poorly programmed

I'm looking for a new string library, mostly strong in the violin sections.. something that has rich vibrato like GOS, but can perform a bit better out of the box. SISS costs $995, but I figure, if VI Orchestral Strings I is better, then I'll get that since it's the same price. Of course, VIOS I only has violins/violas. VIOS II has cellos/basses and is another $1000 :( But I feel my lower strings are OK for now.. it's mostly the violins and violas I need to update and get a better sound out of.

Any suggestions? I suppose I'll post a reference clip showing the kind of sound I really want:

http://www.samhulick.com/misc/strings_ref.mp3

Obviously this is live and samples aren't perfect, but note how the violins have a nice connected legato & consistent attack.. I wouldn't attempt a passage like this with Opus 1, the violin legato is inconsistent and jumpy. For those who have experienced both SISS and VI, which would you say is better suited to reproduce (or I guess I should say "approximate") the above track?

Thanks for any advice.

[mech289]

I would have to say EastWest.. There sound is just full of life for me.. Have also the others librarys you mentioned.. Just not the same.. My thoughts of course.. Since I am one who is obsessed by Violins..Hope this helps...Joseph..

[John DeBorde]

me thinks you might want to consider having matching sections - it might be hard to match Vns from one library with low strings from another Sam.

the SI strings are great when you need a more intimate sound, but not my first choice when i'm looking for something big. they do layer great tho with other libs. (i haven't tried layering them with GOS tho...)

just my 2¢

john

[RiffWraith]

Any suggestions? I suppose I'll post a reference clip showing the kind of sound I really want:

http://www.samhulick.com/misc/strings_ref.mp3


Yeah - you find a lib. that sounds like that, and you be sure to let me know, k? I know you said, "Obviously this is live and samples aren't perfect..." but you have to realize - that is the the London Philharmonic recorded at Abbey Road and/or The Colosseum at Waterford Town Hall, with musicians playing instruments that range in price from $50,000 on up. I have news for you - there are real orchestras that wish they could sound like that.

Personally, I think it's more what you do with the samples than anything else. There are peices of music floating around out there that sound great using one particular lib., and other peices that don't sound that great using the same lib., because of what the composer did/didn't do. Bearing in mind you want something that can perform a bit better out of the box - I would have to agree with mech289, assuming you go for Platinum. Using all three mic positions will yield great results with very little tweaking, IMHO.

Cheers.

[geronimo001]

The first musical phrase on your mp3 has to short detache legato notes followed by a sustain note. ect.. and as far as i can remember, only VSL has performence detache, and they are great:) , at least, the one i have which is chamber strings (Horizon format).

BTW, VSL ch. strings is other option i would be looking into if i were you. even tho its call chamber, it dosn't mean it's only good for that. The idea here is to layer your existing Opus with Chamber.

Here are all the legato pach in chamber strings(6-Violins):

perf. leg p.(slow)
perf. leg f. (slow)
perf. det :) (leg det)
perf. leg f. portamento
perf. leg p.(fast):)
perf. leg f. (fast):)
perf. leg f. sul :)
perf. spic (i just realyze i never tried that one):cool:

And that is just the legato pach, there's also perf-rep-leg, perf-rep-port,
perf-rep-stac. And if you get it in K2 format, you can add even more script like Big Bob's script to your sustain pach.;)

So you can emagine all the combinasion you can do...

Layer perf. leg f + perf leg f. sul + perf det + sus patch(with script) and you have 24 Violins(and more) with the benefit of having them starting at defferent time in space( 1 or 2 tic behind or in advance...) for a more realistic effect, and mix them where you want them to... you know, nothing prevent you from layering perf leg p(fast) + perf. leg f(fast) ect...you could also add some script to you sus(Opus)patch and layer, and layer for ever.:D

I just don't see how you could go wrong with this one, i love it. You can also get it in VI format but then it's lock so no more script. The new VI has some pretty exiting feature from what i can here. But Whatch out for the upgrade pricing tho. ''Note'' that it will not exactly sound good riht out of the box like SISS or EWSO but you have way more musical phrase options, and mixing options too IMO.

SISS: #1 for sustain(pads like) right out of the box. Lots of effect, to Violins sections in place. but more intimate, but could be mix with Opus to sound bigger.

EWSO: Has some really good strings but i would recommend the full packacj like Gold pro XP. The tuning is not great at time but it has caracter. Not good for fast passages... But since you seem to be focus on strings, this may not be what you want...

he he! long post.

P.S. Chamber strings has been produce after Opus and i think they got better, i prefer the leg pach from Chamber than Opus.

Good luck!

[geronimo001]

Oh! I forgot. Chamber strings is like 600$ So that leave room for VSL Solo strings;) , which is like 50 GB of what many consider, the best solo string.
So you could layer even more...

[SyQuEsT]

VSL VI is very easy to use ... many parameters (filter, attack control, release control, etc etc) and the GUI can be updates (version 1.06 now but they're talking about version 1.1 and later, v2) ... all "speed" matrixes are useful (you play fast, slow, it chooses the good patch) ... you don't program your music, you PLAY your music !!! ;)

I thing you'll have a good result with chamber string and (if you want) solo strings.

[Ashermusic]

The strings in Kirk Hunter's Emerald sound pretty darned good right out of the box.

[JohnCarter]

Yeah - you find a lib. that sounds like that, and you be sure to let me know, k? I know you said, "Obviously this is live and samples aren't perfect..." but you have to realize - that is the the London Philharmonic recorded at Abbey Road and/or The Colosseum at Waterford Town Hall, with musicians playing instruments that range in price from $50,000 on up. I have news for you - there are real orchestras that wish they could sound like that.

Personally, I think it's more what you do with the samples than anything else. There are peices of music floating around out there that sound great using one particular lib., and other peices that don't sound that great using the same lib., because of what the composer did/didn't do. Bearing in mind you want something that can perform a bit better out of the box - I would have to agree with mech289, assuming you go for Platinum. Using all three mic positions will yield great results with very little tweaking, IMHO.

Cheers.

In my opinion , no libraries can actually reach realistic big string sounds. But it's getting better and better. The pro expansion for gold/platinum East west solved the problem of fast repeated staccatos. It's absolutely greaaat ! We can really do fast and big staccatos phrases with it, it's a must-have.


Now we have to solve the problem of slow and lush string phrases. I dont think it has something to do with the orchestra used. Because even an average string orchestra would sound better than all the strings libraries actually on the market.
When we play strings chords with platinum, it sounds great. But as soon as we do phrases, it sounds pretty bad. Even the VSL true legato for violins sound weird to my ears, its good , but i still hear a kind of "sucking" effect between each notes. And not to mention the overall sound of these strings, its too much flat for me.
In fact, when we hear real recordings, violins often play beautiful melodic lines with a small bit of portamento between each notes , not a strong one, but a little one. I think it's one of the problem in the VSL legato.

The best results for strings are done with EWQLSO, but it still sounds weird when doing slow lines. I dont think it's because of the quality of the musicians. But rather the recording ( and the nature of sampling of course)

There's one string library that really shines in my opinion , it's the VSL Chamber strings, wow ! Too bad they didnt reach such a quality with bigger strings.

Please excuse my english ,

John

[JohnCarter]

The strings in Kirk Hunter's Emerald sound pretty darned good right out of the box.

I listened to some demos. Sounds good for a sampling library indeed, but still there is something strange in the overall sound. It's funny because i couldnt explain what's wrong with this sample library ( and all the others )
Let's take this demo :

http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/VnSecLeg.mp3

I dont know whats going on when i listen to it, but my ears dont like, its too ... it's too harsh perhaps ? real recordings of strings sound a lot more "smooth" ! It's hard to explain :D

[SyQuEsT]

In fact, when we hear real recordings, violins often play beautiful melodic lines with a small bit of portamento between each notes , not a strong one, but a little one. I think it's one of the problem in the VSL legato.
John

You now have a tzigane portamento (a shorter portamento you can select with the modwheel) ... oh ! and piano portamento.

VSL Pro Edition and VSL VI are 2 distinct products. Looking for the MIR, you'll be able to build your favourite sound (or simply a room with a depth effect to mix with your favourite tools later).

My 2 cents

[matto]

I dont know whats going on when i listen to it, but my ears dont like, its too ... it's too harsh perhaps ? real recordings of strings sound a lot more "smooth" ! It's hard to explain :D
I think the note transitions are too "stepped". The reason they are too stepped is IMO that in a real violin section, you'd have many individuals (depending on the size of section) each playing that legato transition at a slightly different time and rate, which creates a smoother and more diffuse transition. With sctripted legato you have one sample of many individuals transitioning into another sample of many individuals. But it's still only one transition, not many as in a real section. Of course...this is still a great improvement obviously over having NO legato script, and in many situations and contexts it can sound quite convincing.

matto

[MDesigner]

I think the note transitions are too "stepped". The reason they are too stepped is IMO that in a real violin section, you'd have many individuals (depending on the size of section) each playing that legato transition at a slightly different time and rate, which creates a smoother and more diffuse transition. With sctripted legato you have one sample of many individuals transitioning into another sample of many individuals. But it's still only one transition, not many as in a real section. Of course...this is still a great improvement obviously over having NO legato script, and in many situations and contexts it can sound quite convincing.

matto

From what I understand, that's not true with VSL and VI. That legato transition you're hearing is a live legato transition performed by 14 (16?) violinists. The problem with the VSL strings legato (it sounds jumpy to me) is in the programming, not necessary the sampling. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your post..

[geronimo001]

From what I understand, that's not true with VSL and VI. That legato transition you're hearing is a live legato transition performed by 14 (16?) violinists. The problem with the VSL strings legato (it sounds jumpy to me) is in the programming, not necessary the sampling. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your post..

Maybe but the legato you get with chamber is better IMO + all you have to do is layer it with 1 or 2 pach like 14 violins + 6 violins + solo violins, and have them start un-sync, that should do the tric.;)

BTW, it's a sampling problem not a VSL one.

[matto]

From what I understand, that's not true with VSL and VI. That legato transition you're hearing is a live legato transition performed by 14 (16?) violinists. The problem with the VSL strings legato (it sounds jumpy to me) is in the programming, not necessary the sampling. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your post..
Sam you're correct my post was in response to the mp3 posted by John Carter which had *scripted* legato (KH Emerald). In VSL the transitions are actual samples of multiple players' natural transitions. In theory that should sound a lot better, but it's also less flexible. It should sound almost perfect if your passage happens to be at the same speed as the one originally performed to derive those transition samples...but if it's at a very different speed it may sound strange/unnatural.

[SyQuEsT]

It should sound almost perfect if your passage happens to be at the same speed as the one originally performed to derive those transition samples...but if it's at a very different speed it may sound strange/unnatural.

VSL VI chooses the right sampler whatever you play slow or fast. So, it sounds very natural ... You have the slow, medium and fast transition. You have the "perfect trill" too : if you play C-D-C-D-C ... you'll never hear the same C and the same D ... very very useful. You can keyswitch between your favourites matrixes (basic (staccato, 0,3 sec, 0,5 sec) ... legato ... trill ... repetition ...) up to 12.

Easy to use ... Easy to understand (10 minutes and it's done)

[SyQuEsT]

You can watch the VSL tutorial on the website ... you'll understand.

[matto]

You can watch the VSL tutorial on the website ... you'll understand.
Ahem, I *do* understand...I saw the VI demoed several times at NAMM. Just pointing out the current limitations of the technology...since Sam says it sounds "jumpy" to him.
There's no doubt that the VI is a great step forward and that Vienna's approach produces the most authentic legato available today, generally speaking. :|:

[Daryl]

From what I understand, that's not true with VSL and VI. That legato transition you're hearing is a live legato transition performed by 14 (16?) violinists. The problem with the VSL strings legato (it sounds jumpy to me) is in the programming, not necessary the sampling. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your post..
I think that much of the problem is that you're using Opus, which is not chromatically sampled. I have noticed the same thing myself, most of which is fixed by using my Pro Edition Performance Instruments instead. Having now moved on to the VI I can say that things are dramatically easier and I would suggest that you take a look at this. I also like the Appassionata Violins a lot.

D

[MDesigner]

I think that much of the problem is that you're using Opus, which is not chromatically sampled. I have noticed the same thing myself, most of which is fixed by using my Pro Edition Performance Instruments instead. Having now moved on to the VI I can say that things are dramatically easier and I would suggest that you take a look at this. I also like the Appassionata Violins a lot.

D

I don't think the fact Opus is not chromatically sampled is the issue. From what I'm observing, it seems that the velocities are poorly programmed in. The cello section legato is a great example of this. Just load it up and try playing with it.. it sounds downright horrible in some spots. Example: you play one note and sustain it for a second, then hit a second note directly after, and instead of a smooth connection, the second note has this very quick unnatural attack, and a slightly louder volume or harsher tone.

I am strongly considering VI Orchestral Strings I (and II probably later). Like I said, it's roughly the same price as SISS..actually I can get SISS for around $700 or so and VIOS1 for $1125, but I'd gladly pay an extra few hundred for VIOS1.

If any VI owners could post up a couple mp3s for me, demonstrating some of the violin sustain sounds, I'd really appreciate it. Maybe do a couple small phrases with legato, at slow & medium tempos. Also, the extended lib says the violins have "legato on the same string," what does that sound like? To get a good idea of the sound I'm looking for, listen to this clip:

http://www.samhulick.com/music/Worlds_Apart.mp3

The climax at around 0:37.. listen to the 1st & 2nd violins (doubled, octave apart). GOS pulls it off pretty well. I tried Opus 1 strings in that exact spot, in place of GOS, and it just didn't sound full/rich/evocative. So if VI has something like this, I'm interested. :)

[geronimo001]

Vionlins 1, first demo: Adagio for strings, ect...A nice climax in there...

http://www.vsl.co.at/en-us/67/4587/4591.vsl#

Chamber strings...more demos

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46381&highlight=demos

I think VSL, both in tone and articulations is best for this. And if you're not happy with VI, you will never be... Sorry.

[MDesigner]

That does sound pretty impressive! Thanks for the links. I think at this point I've pretty much ruled out SISS for my needs.

[karmacomposer]

John Carter:

I believe that mp3 you linked to is not a demo to show off KHSO Emerald as much as it is to show you WITHOUT Kontakt 2 legato scripting and then WITH Kontakt 2 legato scripting (called "Legato Live" in KHSO Emerald). Hence why it sounds so "rough" in some cases. I actually chuckled when you wrote that because I thought to myself "I think he does not realize that is a BEFORE/AFTER kind of thing".

I find KHSO Emerald strings to be some of the best I have ever used.

His upcoming Ruby will take strings to the N'th degree.

Mike

[geronimo001]

That does sound pretty impressive! Thanks for the links. I think at this point I've pretty much ruled out SISS for my needs.

Really? :eek:

[JBacal]

Sam-- clarification-- on my Copland "Quiet City" demo, I used the VI solo Strings in addition to the VI ensemble strings 1 & 2 and the VI appassionata violins.

I strongly recommend the VI solo strings, maybe even as your first purchase. They are great for layering with ensemble strings. The appassionata violins are currently a bonus only available to Pro Editions owners who buy the VI strings 1 package.

Best of luck on your buying decision.

--Jay

[MDesigner]

Thanks guys. Speaking of solo strings.. the VI solo strings are nice, but if I were to really use a solo violin and feature it above everything else, I'd pick Garritan's Solo Stradivari. That thing is freaking revolutionary and the realism is top notch.

[SyQuEsT]

A good comparison :

Meditation - Jules Massenet

Garritan :
http://www.garritan.com/Strad/Massanet-JH.mp3

VSL VI :
http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=13&DemoId=4614

[Garritan]

A good comparison :

Meditation - Jules Massenet

Garritan :
http://www.garritan.com/Strad/Massanet-JH.mp3

VSL VI :
http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=13&DemoId=4614 A much better representation may be a video of the Massanet being played in real-rime. Here is a video:


http://garritan.com/Jazz/images/bullet1.gif Meditation (http://www.garritan.com/Strad/DemoStradMassenetMsfm1.wmv) (Window video)

http://garritan.com/Jazz/images/bullet1.gif Meditation (http://www.garritan.com/Strad/DemoStradMassenetQT1.mov) (Quicktime Hovie)

As shown in the video, the expressiveness, the vibrato and subtle nuances can be controlled by the user in real-time rather than tweaked after the fact. Thanks to Stefano Lucato for the video performance.


Gary Garritan

[geronimo001]

Is it just me or the link is not working?


A much better representation may be a video of the Massanet being played in real-rime. Here is a video:


http://garritan.com/Jazz/images/bullet1.gif Meditation (http://www.garritan.com/Strad/DemoStradMassenetMsfm1.wmv) (Window video)

http://garritan.com/Jazz/images/bullet1.gif Meditation (http://www.garritan.com/Strad/DemoStradMassenetQT1.mov) (Quicktime Hovie)

As shown in the video, the expressiveness, the vibrato and subtle nuances can be controlled by the user in real-time rather than tweaked after the fact. Thanks to Stefano Lucato for the video performance.


Gary Garritan

[Garritan]

Is it just me or the link is not working?The Windows Media link is not working. Try the Quicktime, or here is a flash video you can try:


garritan.com/Strad/DemoStradMassenetQT1.swf


Press the PLAY Buytton


Gary Garritan

[geronimo001]

The Windows Media link is not working. Try the Quicktime, or here is a flash video you can try:


garritan.com/Strad/DemoStradMassenetQT1.swf


Gary Garritan



Still not working.

[Garritan]

Still not working.It is working here. Press the play button in the video. Anyone else having problems?

[Journeyman]

Works fine here. Impressive work Gary!

[geronimo001]

still not working. Oh! well, going to bed now...

[Garritan]

still not working. Oh! well, going to bed now...Try updating your Flash plugin for your browswer.

[MDesigner]

Yeah doesn't work for me either, and I have Flash player 9. Gary, not sure how you're hosting those videos.. maybe try making a youtube.com account and putting some videos there? (if you want to embed them like this)

At any rate, I did see the Meditation video clip before.. totally awesome. That is REAL TIME, NO tweaking.. or what I call "sample wrangling" :)