Lesson 11 Discussion - Harmony

[Garritan]

This thread is to discuss Lesson 11 which begin our discussion on harmony. Until now we have examined melody which is usually a single foreground line and from here on we will explore multiple lines with a focus on blend and balance.

Although there are no interactive scores in this lesson, the information provided in this lesson will set the groundwork for the following lessons dealing with harmony among the various instrument groups.

Feel free to ask questions here or to discuss any of the material presented in this lesson.

Gary Garritan

[Prowland]

This is an area that I have a lot of trouble with. Melody is easy... giving it to various combinations makes sense to me. The background... "aye, there's the rub..." I have a hard time figuring out what chord voicing to give to what instruments. Should I limit myself to one section, until I get the hang of it? Say, only the string section or what ever section?

Thanks,

[belkina]

You are right, harmony is quite a bit more complicated. The basic rule is BLEND. Harmony will not work with overly disparate timbres. (The classic beginner's mistake is to orchestrate a chord for winds with a different timbre on each note.) Essentially all the advice RK gives in this section of his book is designed to created blended and balanced chords.

String harmony is the easiest to start with. The conditions for getting it right are few and simple - see chapter 12, coming up!


This is an area that I have a lot of trouble with. Melody is easy... giving it to various combinations makes sense to me. The background... "aye, there's the rub..." I have a hard time figuring out what chord voicing to give to what instruments. Should I limit myself to one section, until I get the hang of it? Say, only the string section or what ever section?

Thanks,

[Prowland]

Professor,

Thank you for taking the time to answer that. I have been comparatively limiting myself to the strings lately... not completely limited... just somewhat. LOL

At about 2:05 in this one...Mesmerize (http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=4284860&q=hi)
I'm obviously still learning. LOL

I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas morning to arrive... I guess that would make you the parents with the 4:00 a.m. wake-up call from the kids!! LOL

Thanks for the help, professor.

[belkina]

Glad to be of help.

And after you get the feel of making the harmony blend and balance, there is another step which RK does not discuss: orchestral *movement*.

But let's leave a few presents for next year. In fact, Gary and I have been discussing an interesting follow up to this course. Details to be revealed in due course ... ;-)


Professor,

Thank you for taking the time to answer that. I have been comparatively limiting myself to the strings lately... not completely limited... just somewhat. LOL

At about 2:05 in this one...Mesmerize (http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=4284860&q=hi)
I'm obviously still learning. LOL

I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas morning to arrive... I guess that would make you the parents with the 4:00 a.m. wake-up call from the kids!! LOL

Thanks for the help, professor.

[dermod]

RK does not mention what Walter Piston describes as harmonic rhythm. Is this the same as the harmonic movement mentioned above? It seems to me right that there is a pace or beat aspect to harmony changes which strongly affect the character of the music and this pace needs to be a basic consideration in developing progressions. If not premature just now, some comment would be welcome.

[Prowland]

Professor,

:pIf you tease us like this... the wake-up call might be at 3:00a.m. next year!! LOL :D;)

Have you given any more thought to the weekend seminar for next summer? I would be very interested in that! Of course, maybe, I should remove the link from my last post! Hearing how bad it is, might influence your decision to let me go.:o LOL

Thank you again, Professor Belkin.

[belkina]

No, orchestral movement is something quite different from harmonic rhythm. Stay tuned ... ;-)


RK does not mention what Walter Piston describes as harmonic rhythm. Is this the same as the harmonic movement mentioned above? It seems to me right that there is a pace or beat aspect to harmony changes which strongly affect the character of the music and this pace needs to be a basic consideration in developing progressions. If not premature just now, some comment would be welcome.

[belkina]

Yes, I have "given more thought to the weekend seminar for next summer". Patience, my boy .... ;-)


Professor,

:pIf you tease us like this... the wake-up call might be at 3:00a.m. next year!! LOL :D;)

Have you given any more thought to the weekend seminar for next summer? I would be very interested in that! Of course, maybe, I should remove the link from my last post! Hearing how bad it is, might influence your decision to let me go.:o LOL

Thank you again, Professor Belkin.

[Prowland]

...yes, sir... ***sighs while looking defeated***

[Leaf]

Yes indeedy, it looks like the complexity has been stepped way up several notches. I should listen to the angel on one shoulder saying "you love a challenge", and ignore that other dude on the other shoulder.:)


Are the rules for harmony shown in 11, only refering to simultanous note chords, or would the rules also apply to arpeggiated chord notes on Harp or notes closely linked in a passage?

David

[belkina]

The principles discussed by RK here refer to block chords, not harp arpeggios, etc.


Yes indeedy, it looks like the complexity has been stepped way up several notches. I should listen to the angel on one shoulder saying "you love a challenge", and ignore that other dude on the other shoulder.:)


Are the rules for harmony shown in 11, only refering to simultanous note chords, or would the rules also apply to arpeggiated chord notes on Harp or notes closely linked in a passage?

David

[Aeterna]

Prowland,

I listened to the exerpt you posted, and from one student to another, I think it's quite good! It tends toward the jumpy side, but I think that works with the feeling that I'm presuming you're trying to build. I like the sol-me-re-do ostinato in the bass. It gets a nice "groove" going. :)

[Prowland]

Aeterna,

Thanks for the compliment. I have been thinking of reworking the whole thing... it seems kind of repetitive. Anyway, I'll post it again if I rework it.

Thank you, again

[Leaf]

The principles discussed by RK here refer to block chords, not harp arpeggios, etc.Thanks Professor Belkin, I thought that was probably the case, but wanted to make sure.

David

[Cantabile]

Are the rules for harmony shown in 11, only refering to simultanous note chords, or would the rules also apply to arpeggiated chord notes on Harp or notes closely linked in a passage?

David
Harp players are overated anyway:n: =)


(((JOKE))) bad one to.

[Cantabile]

Aeterna,

Thanks for the compliment. I have been thinking of reworking the whole thing... it seems kind of repetitive. Anyway, I'll post it again if I rework it.

Thank you, again
Repetative is not really a bad thing. Just find ways too keep someone interested"or yourself if your not worried about the listener!".

[Garritan]

Harp players are overated anyway:n: =)
(((JOKE))) bad one to. Hey!!!! What do you mean by that? :p :D

[jamiha]

Gary

I wonder if others like me would find Prof. Belkin's comments easier and quicker to understand if they were written (in red) where the footnote marker is placed, right after the topic it refers to? It's probably not good writing form, but I think it would be good learning form.

just a ponder to squander,
respectfully
tony

[Cantabile]

Hey!!!! What do you mean by that? :p :D
Looks around whistling, innocently.

[Aeterna]

Gary

I wonder if others like me would find Prof. Belkin's comments easier and quicker to understand if they were written (in red) where the footnote marker is placed, right after the topic it refers to? It's probably not good writing form, but I think it would be good learning form.

just a ponder to squander,
respectfully
tony

Yeah, either that, or make each footnote number into a link to the bottom of the page. Prof. Belkin's comments are always very helpful, but it is a bit of a pain to have to scroll down all the time.

[Rhap2]

I'll second that motion........;)

[Garritan]

Gary

I wonder if others like me would find Prof. Belkin's comments easier and quicker to understand if they were written (in red) where the footnote marker is placed, right after the topic it refers to? It's probably not good writing form, but I think it would be good learning form.
In Lesson 11 I edited the lesson so the annotations appear where the marker is placed after the topic, rather than in the footnote.

Let me know if you prefer this. If so, I will go back and edit the previous lessons and do this in future lessons.

Thanks all for the suggestion.

Gary Garritan

[Guy Smiley]

Let me know if you prefer this. If so, I will go back and edit the previous lessons and do this in future lessons.

Thanks all for the suggestion.


Yes that was immensely helpful!