Symphonic Choir Learning curve

[J. Whaley]

Just curious if anyone could mention the learning curve on the Symphonic Choir Word builder. Is it intuitive or does it require some digging in?

Also - how long might one expect to spend trying to make the choir parts of a piece have words clear enough to actually make out what they are saying on say a 5 minute piece? Is it a laborious process?

Thanks in advance


J-

[nikolas]

Well it requires a lot of work and tweaking. It's not sooo much the learning part (there are some tutorial videos which help really much), but the actuall process of writting something that sounds good.

Pretty much every time you enter something in votox you then have to tweak it a little to sound to your liking. And votox=letters not words. As you can understand it is a rather lengthy process. But it's worth every single *insert currency here*.

lus depending on how you use the choirs and what they're saying and the orchestration behind, you can get away with rather a lot of things... ;)

[Jaimo]

J,

It's been my experience that it's not as easy as you might hope. Granted, like anything else, the more time you put into it, the more you'll get out of it.

I bought the choirs last summer, and used it in a version of "Silent Night" that I was hired to do. The choirs sang Ooo's, ahh's, and Mmm's for most of this rendition, but towards the end, had to sing the phrase "Christ the Savior is Born" along with the soloist.

That 5 word phrase, took me the better part of an afternoon, and when I had finished, it sounded like a foreign European choir singing in broken English! A few days later, after reading the manual 2 more times, I went in and did some more tweaking, and got it to a fairly decent point. Soloed, it still sounded a bit "stiff", but behind the soloist, it was quite impressive.

I can tell though, that if I spent some serious time with it (meaning more than an afternoon of two) I would instinctively know what to do, what to avoid, how to overcome certain things, etc... like using any sample library to it's fullest.

I think the whole word builder utility is simply amazing, but you won't be typing a lyric, and have it sung back to you right away. It's just to complex for that. Once you get a handle on Votox, the recommended language that word builder seems to respond best to, you'll get better results, faster. I just personally haven't gotten to that point yet, nor have I spent the time, so that's to be expected.

Just my personal 2 cents...

[J. Whaley]

Hmmm, kind of what I was afraid of. So it would be pretty time consuming to do a mock up of an oratorio?

J-

[Jaimo]

Hmmm, kind of what I was afraid of. So it would be pretty time consuming to do a mock up of an oratorio?

J-

In a word.... yes.

[dpasdernick]

I've posted this over at Sounds On Line but have gotten little response. Anyone here care to answer these questions?

I've been considering the Choirs but have a few questions regarding workflow. While the video demos online are great I'd like to find out the following:

1) I see Nick in the videos typing in Votox and then playing the phrases. I assume he is in Wordbuilder. How do you then take those phrases and incorporate them into Cubase for example? Are the Choirs open in Cubase, like Colussus would be, and "seeing" Wordbuilder running in the background?

2) Does the Choir lib play without Worldbuilder. For instance, can you open it up like you would Gold or Colossus and start playing some notes? Can you get decent oohs and aahs this way.

3) Is it going to kill my computer? I have a 2.6ghz Pentium 4, with 2 gigs of ram, and 3 HD drives. Currently i use Gold Pro, Stormdrum and a ton of other VST's and manage to make some cool music with the single machine. Could i squeeze a few phrases out of the Choirs and manage to still use only the one computer? (I really don't want asecond machine)

4) For those who have purchased it, are you spending more time writing Votox and tweaking than writing music.

5) EWQL are introducing a new player soon? Will this affect my investment? (Sorry if this is old news but I've been out of the loop for a while)

Any help would be so appreciated!!!

All the very best,

Darren

[Kaatza Music]

1) I see Nick in the videos typing in Votox and then playing the phrases. I assume he is in Wordbuilder. How do you then take those phrases and incorporate them into Cubase for example? Are the Choirs open in Cubase, like Colussus would be, and "seeing" Wordbuilder running in the background?

2) Does the Choir lib play without Worldbuilder. For instance, can you open it up like you would Gold or Colossus and start playing some notes? Can you get decent oohs and aahs this way.

3) Is it going to kill my computer? I have a 2.6ghz Pentium 4, with 2 gigs of ram, and 3 HD drives. Currently i use Gold Pro, Stormdrum and a ton of other VST's and manage to make some cool music with the single machine. Could i squeeze a few phrases out of the Choirs and manage to still use only the one computer? (I really don't want asecond machine)



Darren

1. Yes, Nick is using Word Builder and it runs independently of the DAW. The Choirs are either in stand alone mode or open in your DAw as a VST.

2. Yes, you can play the samples without Word Builder and they sound great and are very useful for oos and ahhss.

3. Yes, it is taxing on your system. 2 Gigs of RAM might be a little light. I run Choirs on a seperate slave with 3 gigs of RAM.

[nikolas]

I've posted this over at Sounds On Line but have gotten little response. Anyone here care to answer these questions?

To make the devils' advocate:

EW forums are not as busy as here. So don't expect to post something and get a response in an afternoon, always.

Now on to your questions:

1. You use the choirs as any sampler, and the wordbuilder as an insert in the track you're playing the voice.

2. yes (sorry leo for repeating you)

3. You won't be able to use much other than the choirs, but with a little exporting/bouncing you'll be fine. Either way with 2 gigs, if you over do it with Gold XP POR you will run out of memory as well (for example if youend up using 56 articulations or something... :P)

4. No. My music making is a much lengthy process, but this is personal. Also writting music is creative, dealing with votox is not, in the matter that in the end you will get the hang of it and also learn more about it and get used to it. This does not apply to music making. But it is a lengthy process and taxing, but the rewards are great.

5. How exactly do you mean that? The most I can say is that you will be jealous of the others with the new player. Either way after a couple of years EW will come up with Symphonic choirs pro (as they did with the orchestras and now apparently doing for colossus. The same will happen for everything). I figure that every couple of years one needs to change his equipment/software. So... since we don't know when the new player will arrive... no reason to be curious about that.

A small note about SC and EW:

They had 3 group buys so far in the last 3-4 months.

Fair enough it is a marketing way.

But also it is a way to empty the warehouses.

Why does anyone need more space? YTo fill it up with new products I say!

[dpasdernick]

Guys,

Thanks for the response! yes, i'm sure EW is up to something good. They have not released anything new in quite some time so I'm sure their new player is a huge endeavour.

As far as the choirs are concerned it kinda freaks me out to think that I'll need a whole new machine with 3 gigs of ram to get some decent results. Hmmm... maybe i could invite 80 of my friends over and have them squawk into a Shure SM58 instead?...

Man at 398.00 it's so darn tempting... but so is the Cubase 4.0 update and the new Native instruments stuff... and food...

Thanks again!

Darren

[Hardy Heern]

Guys,

Thanks for the response! yes, i'm sure EW is up to something good. They have not released anything new in quite some time so I'm sure their new player is a huge endeavour.

As far as the choirs are concerned it kinda freaks me out to think that I'll need a whole new machine with 3 gigs of ram to get some decent results. Hmmm... maybe i could invite 80 of my friends over and have them squawk into a Shure SM58 instead?...

Man at 398.00 it's so darn tempting... but so is the Cubase 4.0 update and the new Native instruments stuff... and food...

Thanks again!

Darren

You're not the only one Darren! :) I'm very tempted too but don't know if I can justify another dedicated PC and the learning curve.....especially with all the other stuff I have to get up and running. Still if you miss it you might have to go a long time before a similar opportunity arises.....Difficult isn't it?:)

I succumbed to the Gold Group Buy but managed to resist (just) StormDrum and the following GB.

Good Luck with your decision.....it's only days now:eek:

Frank

[tfishbein82]

As far as the choirs are concerned it kinda freaks me out to think that I'll need a whole new machine with 3 gigs of ram to get some decent results.

I have a similar machine to you. Here's what I do, write the choir part using just an ah or oo sample, this way i can playback right along all my orchestral instruments. Then when I've completed a portion that I want to bounce to audio, I just bounce the orchestral portion. Then I have freed up resources to load Word Builder Multis. Even so, loading a full SATB choir with Word Builder may be impossible, but you can construct each portion separately and bounce to audio.

It can be done.

[J. Whaley]

Could someone comment on how much time they may put into creating a b asic choir piece? Maybe with an MP3 for an audible representation? I don't really have $400, but it's so tempting, if I can just replace something with these choirs then I can suddenly fire a couple people and have $400 - their loss, my gain :)

[JPGarbarini]

I think Symphonic Choirs is worth the investment if you are serious about including singing choirs in your compositions. It does has a steep learning curve but like all powerful software, you get what you put into it.


Here's a 30 second test I did on a piece I was working on. The composition was already done so all my time was spent editing the MIDI to work with Symphonic Choirs Word Builder. SATB parts were recorded seperatly and then mixed:

Renew Choir Test (http://www.musicbyjpg.com/music/MixTest_012_RenewChoir.mp3)

I'd say that took about an hour but there was lots of tweaking trying different things and such. I didn't use any Modwheel or volume curves to add dynamics in this recording. In final mixes, using the modwheel and volume (expression C11) controls are vital to a good sounding choir. It just takes a lot of listening and fine tuning. Lots of details to work out but I think the more you use it, the better and faster you get.

[Hardy Heern]

I think Symphonic Choirs is worth the investment if you are serious about including singing choirs in your compositions. It does has a steep learning curve but like all powerful software, you get what you put into it.


Here's a 30 second test I did on a piece I was working on. The composition was already done so all my time was spent editing the MIDI to work with Symphonic Choirs Word Builder. SATB parts were recorded seperatly and then mixed:

Renew Choir Test (http://www.musicbyjpg.com/music/MixTest_012_RenewChoir.mp3)

I'd say that took about an hour but there was lots of tweaking trying different things and such. I didn't use any Modwheel or volume curves to add dynamics in this recording. In final mixes, using the modwheel and volume (expression C11) controls are vital to a good sounding choir. It just takes a lot of listening and fine tuning. Lots of details to work out but I think the more you use it, the better and faster you get.

Just when I thought I was clear of temptation, and wouldn't buy, this has made me stop and think again. It's going to be a long, hand wringing day........
Thanks for taking the time to give us an insight into what can be achieved with a known amount of effort. A nice little piece this, with a touch of Gaudeamus Igitur and Welsh Male voice choirs......vertical neck hair stuff for me!:)

Thank you JP.:)

Frank

[JPGarbarini]

Just when I thought I was clear of temptation, and wouldn't buy, this has made me stop and think again. It's going to be a long, hand wringing day........
Thanks for taking the time to give us an insight into what can be achieved with a known amount of effort. A nice little piece this, with a touch of Gaudeamus Igitur and Welsh Male voice choirs......vertical neck hair stuff for me!:)

Thank you JP.:)

Frank

If it helps any, the workflow is something like this

* Once all composition/lyrics are done
1) Translate Lyrics to VOTOX (the Wordbuilder language)
2) Adjust release of midi notes to give appropriate room for ending sounds
3) Adjust velocity of midi notes
4) Adjust velocity of constant/vowel sounds
5) Use the Learn function to get precise note lengths
6) Adjust volume curves between constants and vowels (this is where I spent the most time getting the words to sound "real")
7) Use mod-wheel to create dynamics
8) Use Expression (C11) to create dynamics

Step 1 just takes practice. After you're familar with the VOTOX language, this starts getting faster. You just have to think phonetics and not SPel everything the way it sounds hehe.

Steps 2-5 requires little thought. It's just a matter of fine-tuning things.

Step 6, as I mentioned, is the longest part of the workflow and the most important. At this step you blend the transitions between the sounds within a syllable. Getting the blends correct is the key to a "real" sounding choir.

Steps 7 & 8 are all about adding color, expression, feel, and breath to the whole thing.

Then it's back to the usual process of recording and mixing.

[J. Whaley]

I have less than 2 hours to make up my mind. . . . . errr......I really don't have any current projects that justify the purchase, and I really don't have $400. But it's so cheap, and I really want it. . . . . . . errrrrrrr. . . . . .

[Hardy Heern]

If it helps any, the workflow is something like this

* Once all composition/lyrics are done
1) Translate Lyrics to VOTOX (the Wordbuilder language)
2) Adjust release of midi notes to give appropriate room for ending sounds
3) Adjust velocity of midi notes
4) Adjust velocity of constant/vowel sounds
5) Use the Learn function to get precise note lengths
6) Adjust volume curves between constants and vowels (this is where I spent the most time getting the words to sound "real")
7) Use mod-wheel to create dynamics
8) Use Expression (C11) to create dynamics

Step 1 just takes practice. After you're familar with the VOTOX language, this starts getting faster. You just have to think phonetics and not SPel everything the way it sounds hehe.

Steps 2-5 requires little thought. It's just a matter of fine-tuning things.

Step 6, as I mentioned, is the longest part of the workflow and the most important. At this step you blend the transitions between the sounds within a syllable. Getting the blends correct is the key to a "real" sounding choir.

Steps 7 & 8 are all about adding color, expression, feel, and breath to the whole thing.

Then it's back to the usual process of recording and mixing.

Thanks again JP; you're very kind.:heart: I tell you what; that workflow sequence is probably the most useful and concise process I've seen and has to be exceptionally useful to any one setting out with EWQLSC. Funny enough I had guessed, as an inveterate MIDI tweaker, that something like your step 6 would be required. I'll be printing and filing this one!

I really don't mind spending time tweaking to achieve realistic results. I will get this, or something like it, at some point as I love a touch of choirs now and again.

Sadly, I feel I may have wasted your time as, on this occasion, I eventually resisted going for the Group Buy. I definitely would have gone for it but for the, virtual, necessity to have at least one dedicated PC. Is this down to the complexity and multiple instances required or is it the 24bit? I must say that 16bit totally suffices my needs but I suppose these libraries are, mainly, aimed at the Pros.

Although I build my own PCs, and it wouldn't cost that much, I don't need the complication at the moment with all the other stuff I have to get up and running!:) :o

Now Jeremy has gone and made things even worse......or better?..~|

Thanks again to you both......that is one amazing sale Jeremy!; I appreciate the heads up......Perhaps I still ought to get Stormdrum?......I successfully resisted that one as well.........AAaaaargh!!!:eek:

Frank

[JPGarbarini]

Sadly, I feel I may have wasted your time as, on this occasion, I eventually resisted going for the Group Buy.

Whether you bought it or not is beside the point, as long as the information helped :)

There will be more group buys and deals in the future.

[jeffn1]

Well, I jumped in (though, not without some guilt). I printed out this thread when I install it (after I get a new hard drive). I am sure it will be very helpful for me.

jeffn1

[tunesmith]

How have you guys worked around the vocal range limitations in SC. The sporanos only sing down to A5, but all the way up to E7, very strange.

Someone said something about multis in Kontakt 2 which I own, but I'm not sure how to do this

[JPGarbarini]

How have you guys worked around the vocal range limitations in SC. The sporanos only sing down to A5, but all the way up to E7, very strange.

Someone said something about multis in Kontakt 2 which I own, but I'm not sure how to do this Yeah, this is my biggest beaf with SC. The ranges are not what you would expect for a choir library. It can be annoying. If you own Kontakt 2, there are Men and Women choirs (T&B grouped and S&A grouped) you can open. Look in the SC directory w/ the K2 browser. That helps some but if you insit on recording SATB (like me) then you just have to make due. It's not a perfect library but it's still the best out there so when I run into problems like this I just sigh and move on. (as a side note, I would NEVER pay $1000 for this product. That is insanely over priced for something with as many small problems as SC. I pay $499 which was pushing it but at least reasonable)

[Looper]

How have you guys worked around the vocal range limitations in SC. The sporanos only sing down to A5, but all the way up to E7, very strange.



Are you referring to A5 as the A above middle C (A 440hz) or the octave above that. Thanks.

[Daryl]

A 440

D

[nikolas]

A 440

D
So, a perfect foruth upwards, or a perfect fifth downards right? (A-D).

Couldn't help it... sorry

N

[tunesmith]

Yes the A above middle C.

Thanks for the help with the multi programs in Kontakt 2. Now, if you don't mind how do I set them up in midi, the Womens multi seems to be on many midi chanels, how does that work in my sequencer (Cubase sx3). How do I setup the tracks so I can play them?

Thanks!

[nikolas]

I don't have K2, but even if you had 1 voice (sopranos) it would go to 5 midi channels. That said, you just make 1 midi track and insert the WordBuilder as an insert (nice english sentence. Someone give me a prize for my english please). Everything else will be dealt by WB, who will ascociate the correct midi channel for the correct letter each time.

This is what you mean?

[tunesmith]

Yes thank you!

What midi channel do I use on the midi trrack?

Thanks!

[nikolas]

since you're on cubase the channel ANY will do the trick ;)

[JPGarbarini]

Nikolas already answered it but I'll chime in too :)

All the WB patches have to be split between 4-5 midi channels (there's just that much data hehe).

The WordBuilder utility which you insert as a MIDI effect take the note played and the syllable typed in and then plays out the correct notes to the midi channels to get that sound.

Every now and then I'll forget to insert the WB midi effect and just play the track and it sounds bizarre. *which could be a neat FX in some compostions hehe*

[tunesmith]

Thanks guys great help.

I think I have it setup as you said, but when I release the key the voices sing again. Press a key they sing, release the key they sing again.

Cool effect but not very pleaseing.

Any ideas?

Thanks again!

[nikolas]

That's because the 'word' you have in WB is too long.

In WB you input letters, which make up words. Each word is screened on the bottom half of the WB plug-in.

Now that lower half screenie thing is devided into 2 sections. The one section is the begining of the word and the second section is the ending. If the ending is too long, or you run out of syllabes before notes, or run out of notes before sullabes, then the note will usually replay, or if not, definately cause problems.

Try something simple:

Go to the latin phrase, which you know that they are correctly put, and make up a melody. Find a short phrase for more convinient usage. Then start playing with the melody, by adding or subtracting notes here and there, and see when you hit the nail and the melody sounds ok.

A general try and see approach which can certainly work ;)

Other than that I have no idea...

[tunesmith]

I did as you suggested and they play just fine. I only had problems in english, votox was fine.

Thank you so much for your help. Is there a word dictionary done in votox around? Also, has anyone done anything in Hebrew?

[JPGarbarini]

I would never try to use english in WB. VOTOX is the only way to go :)

Be sure to look at this webpage too:
VOTOX Guide (http://support.%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E.com/faq/index.php?action=artikel&cat=2&id=55&artlang=en&highlight=votox)

[nikolas]

Thank you so much for your help. Is there a word dictionary done in votox around? Also, has anyone done anything in Hebrew?
It is not that difficult actually.

You need to shut your vocabvulary and any sense of spelling off and start thinking what you want the choirs to actually sing/say.

IT doesn't have to spell right or anything like that. You just need to visualise every time the letters the choir will produce.

If I remember correctly (but it's been a long time since I used the choirs) the word "rain", is something like REin (or simmilar, can't remember right now and I'm too tired to open up Cubase and then the choirs...) but the point is that A sounds like AAAAA and not EEEE so spelling it rain is wrong. And you need to crossfade the E with the i in order to produce the passing and closing of the mouth between 2nd and 3rd letter.

In the SOL forum you can also find 5 videos which are extremley helpful. Go check them out. :)

[JonFairhurst]

It is not that difficult actually.Agreed. I've used VOTOX with VOTA, and you only have to do a few lines before you start to memorize the key sounds. You just have to sound things out, which should be easy for most musicians - we're trained to listen to sounds closely.

The challenge relates to how perfect you want things to sound. You have to know when to stop polishing the apple. If you are mixing with orchestra, you can stand a lot of imperfections. If you're good, you can mix some real vocals with the samples to help sell it.

The one PITA is that you need to load up a bunch of tracks and run the sequencer through the wordbuilder (in VOTA). That drives the workflow that others have mentioned earlier in the thread. I like to get everything set in stone, then apply the words, capture to wave and move on. The thing to avoid is jumping around from track to track with a tweak here and another tweak there.