How to add custom convolution reverb in K2 w/ Strad 2.0 ??

[JPGarbarini]

Hello All,

I just got my version of the Stradivari 2.0 (it's awesome!!) but I ran into a small problem almost right away.

The new interface doesn't have a Configure button to open the section with insert effects. So I can't add my own IR reverb or any other insert effect.

The configure button (the wrentch) has been replaced with the instrument options button (gears). I don't know of any keyboard shortcut to open the "Insert Effects" tab though, so I can't reach it to add my own reverb.

Anyone know a way around this?

Thanks!

Here's a screenshot if it helps :)

http://musicbyjpg.com/Strad2_configurebutton.JPG
http://musicbyjpg.com/strad2_configurebutton.jpg

[spitfire31]

Hi,

In the Kontakt 2 Player interface, in the uppermost part, click the Outputs button.

In the mixer that opens, you have four inserts per channel. Click and hold the popup arrow on an insert and select 'Convolution' (second from the bottom of the list). Then double click the insert button now marked 'cu' or click the 'Edit Effect' button in the row just above the channel sliders.

The Convolution editing window will open and you can drag your impulse WAV to the space where it says 'Drag Impulse Sample Here' ;). I just tested, and it works.

HTH,

//Joey

[JPGarbarini]

Thanks for the Reply Joey,

That only works if the Strad is the only instrument loaded. By putting the effect on the output channel, everything will have the reverb applied to it. I want to apply the convolution reverb (and perhaps other effects) just to the loaded Strad. So what you suggested to do won't work.

I need to open the Insert Effect and Insert Send for each loaded instance.

[Nickie Fønshauge]

JP,

when you open the Output mixer, you should see 4 Aux channels. If you click "Conf." on one of these, you get a "channel output configuration" dialog box for that channel. When you click the (very) small "Aux" button in the upper right corner of the Stradivari interface, an "Aux Sends" strip opens below the Stradivari interface with a level slider for each Aux channel.

You can use these Aux channels to set 4 different effect configurations.

[JPGarbarini]

Thanks Nickie for the suggestion for getting to the Aux Sends.


Do you have any ideas for getting to the Insert Effects for each instance of the Strad?

[Nickie Fønshauge]

Do you have any ideas for getting to the Insert Effects for each instance of the Strad?
I doubt you can do that in the Kontakt Player. Maybe you can do it in Kontakt 2. I don't know since I have not been able to install it yet - there was no serial number with the disc. :(

[JPGarbarini]

That's my problem. I'm using the full version of Kontakt 2 :) (haven't even tried the player yet).

But the configure button you normally use (the wrentch; see my SS) isn't there. Only the gears, which opens up the intrument configuration dialog.

As far as I know there's no keyboard shortcut to get to the patch editor (which has the Insert Effects section). :(

[Nickie Fønshauge]

I suppose they somehow blocked the access to the Edit mode then. This is a major disappointment and I don't really understand why. There is nothing to steal from the Editor except maybe the script, and this is/can be password protected anyway. Unfortunately, blocking access to the Editor means, you cannot apply custom scripts, one of Kontakts big advantages. This lack of access detracts a good deal in the instruments value in my oppinion.

[nicjones]

I agree that this lack of cross compatibility is very annoying, especially if you're using the new strad instruments in Kontakt 2. What if you want to add simple scripts to substitute controllers or add humanizer effects for ensemble use, for example?

[Ryan (cyrosis)]

I just "upgraded" to the new 2.0 version (just got it installed about 20 minuts ago) and the first thing I tried to do was replace the impulse response they used, as I absolutly cant stand it, being set to 100% wet, it colors the sound way too much. If theres really no way to change this, I think I'll be going back to the old version.. gotta love spending 50$ on a downgrade.

excuse the rant, but Im more then moderatly angry;)

:edit: Im not 100% sure on this, but is the only difference between V1 and 2 (soundwise) a change in the impulses used? if so, I'd have absolutly zero need for V2, another thought, the cello/viola etc will probably have this same issue:(

[Giorgio Tommasini]

Ryan,

I believe what you wrote is based on a misconception.

Please note that convolution of deconvolved samples with the instrument body IR plainly yields the timbre of the original instrument.

This means that it MUST be set 100% wet, not to color the sound. Conversely, If you wish to alter the timbre of the Stradivari, you may easily do this by equalization.

The difference between vers. 1.08 and 2.01 is not limited to the IR. The two versions use different samples, mainly to reduce timbrical inhomogeneities across adjacent notes. Programming is different, and several advanced features have been introduced in vers 2.01.

Please refer to the manual :)

Giorgio

[Giorgio Tommasini]

Nickie, Nicjones

We are currently inquiring about the feasibility of allowing use of additional scripts. We believe this request is quite reasonable. :)

Changing the programming in Kontakt2 was discouraged even when the first library was released, since this may easily lead to malfunction of the whole instrument. Several K2 bugs are still unsolved. As an example, one cannot apply simultaneous changes to a bunch of layers. Applying apparently identical changes to individual layers results in slight, invisible differences in the internal setting. If these involve pitch-related controllers, harmonic alignment would be disrupted, and the instrument will start exhibit phasing.

Giorgio

[Ryan (cyrosis)]

Ryan,

I believe what you wrote is based on a misconception.

Please note that convolution of deconvolved samples with the instrument body IR plainly yields the timbre of the original instrument.

This means that it MUST be set 100% wet, not to color the sound. Conversely, If you wish to alter the timbre of the Stradivari, you may easily do this by equalization.

The difference between vers. 1.08 and 2.01 is not limited to the IR. The two versions use different samples, mainly to reduce timbrical inhomogeneities across adjacent notes. Programming is different, and several advanced features have been introduced in vers 2.01.

Please refer to the manual :)

GiorgioWhile its good to know theres more to the new version, I'd like some clarification on the Impulses. As I understand it, the strad uses some convolution that can not be turned off, internal workings for vibrato and various articulations etc. The convolution samples labeled as "ambience" etc however, you are telling me, are also part of the instrument body model as well? and not just a room? anyhow, may I ask what method was used to capture the impulses, because to my ears, they seem to have a very low frequency range, lacking in lows and highs, suggesting this was not a deconvolved sinesweep or spike, but something more like a starter pistol. Maybe I'm just crazy, but using my own IR's in the place of the default batch yielded much better results for me, even if it was not the exact representation of the real, acoustic instrument. (and yes, I sounded like a prepubescent child in my last post, finding I could no longer edit some of the finer details, was not my favorite suprise of the day)

[Nickie Fønshauge]

Changing the programming in Kontakt2 was discouraged even when the first library was released, since this may easily lead to malfunction of the whole instrument.
Giorgio,

I am an adult, I am responsible for what I do. I don't need a nanny. If I screw things up, I don't blame you, I blame me - and then I reinstall, if I have to. :)

And, I did come across the identical group bug - the hard way. I am still alive and kickin' and not cursing anybody for the mistakes, I made. Well, if the mistakes are made by NI, I do curse them :p

I cannot strongly enough encourage you to have a little faith in the end users and allow us to modify the instrument, especially by means of scripting. Who knows, in the end you may even get some feedback, that will allow you to make the instrument even better. Much new and innovative development is made, not by established developers, but rather by individuals, who just got a good idea and pursued it. Besides, we don't all share the same taste in how an instrument should sound or work.

Have a little faith, please, and leave us some breathing space! :)

[Garritan]

The Stradivari is now a virtual instrument, rather than a library, and as such it is an integrated whole. It is not intended to be disassembled any more than a wooden instrument. We are open to suggestions to add new IRs or do further refinements and will post updates.

Gary Garritan

[Ryan (cyrosis)]

The Stradivari is now a virtual instrument, rather than a library, and as such it is an integrated whole. It is not intended to be disassembled any more than a wooden instrument. We are open to suggestions to add new IRs or do further refinements and will post updates.

Gary GarritanI am glad you are willing to do refinements, but I still cant help but feel like I spent my money to only trade features I loved, with new ones.

[nicjones]

Giorgio

Thanks for listening to us. If you're thinking of modifying scripts for future versions, I for one would welcome the ability to humanize Stradivari when used non-solo. The new instrument's great, but it would be very useful to be able to stack a few instances in Kontakt and be able to slightly adjust the timing and intonation and level for ensemble playing (processor allowing). This might (I'm no expert) also eliminate phasing problems etc. I was about to try this when I realised that it wasn't possible! I know it's intended to be a solo instrument, but I think the sound of several single instruments can sound much better than, for example, a sampled ensemble. Whilst it's great for non Kontakt owners to have the benefit of Stradivari via the standalone player, I think many of us will be using version 2 within Kontakt as part of a much larger setup.

Hope this feedback is useful, and thanks again for a great concept/instrument!

[Skysaw]

One of the things I love about version one is the ability to turn off the body impulse, and substitute something all together unnatural (see my Halloween entry for an example). I hope this continues to be a possibility, since I love taking apart instruments as much as I love simulating them in the first place!

[Ryan (cyrosis)]

One of the things I love about version one is the ability to turn off the body impulse, and substitute something all together unnatural (see my Halloween entry for an example). I hope this continues to be a possibility, since I love taking apart instruments as much as I love simulating them in the first place!The main thing im confused about with that (since that apparently is a body IR) , is to why a violin that was recorded with the real body would need software to model the body ~| any takers on explaining that one :) (and I'd still love to know what method of impuling was used, the question in my previous post)

thanks

[Skysaw]

The main thing im confused about with that (since that apparently is a body IR) , is to why a violin that was recorded with the real body would need software to model the body
It's actually an ingenious idea.

If you use a traditional sample of a violin and bend the pitch, the sound of the impulse theoretically bends as well. That is to say, it sounds as if the body gets slightly larger as the pitch goes flat, and slightly smaller as it goes sharp... all very subtle, of course, but it factors in to believability. In an even more subtle way, an introduced vibrato would do the same thing.

This ties in to why the timbre of a violin is not consistant throughout its register. No matter what pitch you play, it is filtered though the resonance of the body, which is a constant. If the resonance changes, even in the tiniest way, it will start to sound less convincing.

[Ryan (cyrosis)]

It's actually an ingenious idea.

If you use a traditional sample of a violin and bend the pitch, the sound of the impulse theoretically bends as well. That is to say, it sounds as if the body gets slightly larger as the pitch goes flat, and slightly smaller as it goes sharp... all very subtle, of course, but it factors in to believability. In an even more subtle way, an introduced vibrato would do the same thing.

This ties in to why the timbre of a violin is not consistant throughout its register. No matter what pitch you play, it is filtered though the resonance of the body, which is a constant. If the resonance changes, even in the tiniest way, it will start to sound less convincing.This makes sence, but the only way that would work properly is if the recorded samples did not already have the body, this effectively doubles the body and dulls the frequency range. For example, go grab your V1 dvd/cd (or open and turn the convolution completly off if still installed) and play a note, you can instantly hear the non modified samples have a vastly larger range, especially in the high's. Another example, is the new GigaViolin libraries, which did the convolution properly, they recorded just the violin strings, with no body (an electric violin) then used convolution as the only body, so you can swap out the bodies etc. IMO you shouldnt have both, either you have a real body, or a convoled one. :edit: of course correct me if i'm wrong on how the strad was recorded, but something seems fishy to me.

[Giorgio Tommasini]

Ryan,

You may find some information about our proprietary techniques in this review of the Stradivari Violin written by Rick Paul for CakewalkNet, March 2006.

http://www.cakewalknet.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=173&Itemid=2

Nothing fishy, really.

Giorgio

[Ryan (cyrosis)]

Ryan,

You may find some information about our proprietary techniques in this review of the Stradivari Violin written by Rick Paul for CakewalkNet, March 2006.

http://www.cakewalknet.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=173&Itemid=2

Nothing fishy, really.

GiorgioI suppose I don't see how that answers my questions, I understand the main principal behind using the convolution, but don't think its used properly on all accounts. If I am correct in believing the violin was recorded in its entirety (a fully constructed violin) and that the 4 included impulses with V1 are indeed IR's including the body of the violin. Then my point, that this makes 2 bodies, and an inaccurate representation of the instrument remains true. As those inquiries have yet to be fully clarified however, I cant know that for sure. All of this would remain moot of course, if V2 still supported editing of these options.:)

[Skysaw]

This makes sence, but the only way that would work properly is if the recorded samples did not already have the body, this effectively doubles the body and dulls the frequency range.
If we're talking about the Garritan strad v1, turning off the body convolution does leave you only with the sound of the string, at least as far as I can tell. The sound is very thin, and not very pretty!

[Garritan]

If we're talking about the Garritan strad v1, turning off the body convolution does leave you only with the sound of the string, at least as far as I can tell. The sound is very thin, and not very pretty!That's right Jamie. The sound you will be left with are the strings without a body and it isn't very prety. :(

Regarding the Player: There are some thing we cannot do with the new Kontakt 2 player that we could when we had just a library. We are simply not able to to be selective in all that we can make modifiable. And there are some things that we don't want to be open.

This software instrument was developed as an integral whole. There's a great deal of precision involved especially with the harmonic alignment and other processes. One of the main differences with the GigaViolin and any other solo stringed instruments is that there is no alignment between the dynamics of the string samples. Much of the techniques employed with the Strad are proprietary and this instrument is delicately balanced.

With the Strad 2.0, the instrument body IR comes from from the actual Stradivari instrument. Giorgio has spent several years perfecting this instrument. This instrument is extremely valuable and we want to preserve the sound as much as possible.

In the beginning of the 19th century there was a fad to modify violins. Some wanted to modify it for the playing of the day by extending the fingerboard and some to make it louder by changing sound posts. A good number of Stradivaris and other valuable instruments were ruined by people wanting to modify their instruments.

We want these software counterparts of these rare exquisite instruments to remain inviolate. If any changes or improvements are wanted, we are open to exploring them and changing them in-house.

Gary Garritan

[Ryan (cyrosis)]

That's right Jamie. the sound you will be left with are the strings.:) Well that is good news indeed, took more posts then I expected :p yet, mind if I ask how you excited the violin body for the IR's? (sinesweep, spike, starter pistol etc)

[Garritan]

:) Well that is good news indeed, took more posts then I expected :p yet, mind if I ask how you excited the violin body for the IR's? (sinesweep, spike, starter pistol etc)Ryan,
None of the above. It was a proprietary process. We can't be giving away all our secrets. ;) ... Putting a starter pistol to a Stradivari? Yikes! :p

Gary Garritan

[Ryan (cyrosis)]

Ryan,
None of the above. It was a proprietary process. We can't be giving away all our secrets. ;) ... Putting a starter pistol to a Stradivari? Yikes! :p

Gary GarritanOk, fair enough:) and yes, I was hoping it was not a starter pistol, not only is it completly innaccurate, but yes, Yikes is a good way to put it. :edit: this isnt to say I wouldnt like to still have the editing ability back, as I'd really like to mix between the string/body of the instrument as I think you should hear a little bit of the dry signal, but you seem to be fairly firm on this point)

[nhb]

I am also very dissappointed that I am unable, even in Kontakt 2, to make some slight edits. If I had known this in advance, I certainly wouldn't have been so quick to upgrade from version 1.

I sort of expected the Sample Encryption (fair enough), but I cant believe that I can't get in and make a few velocity tweeks to suit my playing style and different keyboard controllers.

Please reconsider allowing us to access the Kontakt editing features. We're all big boys and girls here.

Thanks,

nhb

[MMOSC]

Regarding the Player: There are some thing we cannot do with the new Kontakt 2 player that we could when we had just a library. We are simply not able to to be selective in all that we can make modifiable. And there are some things that we don't want to be open.

Understandable but isn't the cat pretty much out of the bag with the 1st version? Wouldn’t the techniques employed be patent-able?
It should be possible to be selective to what is modifiable by exposing the parameters through scripts. Insert convolution and tuning certainly could be exposed this way.


This software instrument was developed as an integral whole. There's a great deal of precision involved especially with the harmonic alignment and other processes. One of the main differences with the GigaViolin and any other solo stringed instruments is that there is no alignment between the dynamics of the string samples. Much of the techniques employed with the Strad are proprietary and this instrument is delicately balanced.

With the Strad 2.0, the instrument body IR comes from from the actual Stradivari instrument. Giorgio has spent several years perfecting this instrument. This instrument is extremely valuable and we want to preserve the sound as much as possible.

In the beginning of the 19th century there was a fad to modify violins. Some wanted to modify it for the playing of the day by extending the fingerboard and some to make it louder by changing sound posts. A good number of Stradivaris and other valuable instruments were ruined by people wanting to modify their instruments.

We want these software counterparts of these rare exquisite instruments to remain inviolate. If any changes or improvements are wanted, we are open to exploring them and changing them in-house.

Gary Garritan

Unlike the ruined Stradivaris mentioned the virtual Stradavari is easily restored. As much as the instrument maker would like, once sold the instrument is in the hands of the buyer and will only sound as good as the player. A great violinist will always sound better playing a $200 violin then a poor player playing a $150,000 instrument.

Gary you must realize your going to be held to much higher standard then other sampler developers due to past actions - so decisions preceived as out of character are going to cause a stir.
I'm a conscientious observer as I don't own the strad but I will care when you release the :D Mighty Morphing Selmar Paris Alto Sax.:D

[Garritan]

Gary you must realize your going to be held to much higher standard then other sampler developers due to past actions - so decisions preceived as out of character are going to cause a stir.
I'm a conscientious observer as I don't own the strad but I will care when you release the :D Mighty Morphing Selmar Paris Alto Sax.:DMMOSC,

Thanks for that vote of confidence. As I posted in another thread,

This is one of the very first libraries with the Kontakt 2 Player and we are all learning the benefits and limitations. A player version has different use than a library and it is more limited and, AFAIK, nowhere was it stated in promotional copy that one can edit in Kontakt 2.

We as developers are bound by certain limitations with the player and must work with what we have at our disposal.We'll contact NI and see what can be done. Having the ability to do alternate tunings would be neat.

We do want all our users to have a good experience with the instrument and will strive for that goal.

There are some things we want to remain protected as in the first version (and new features added), but other things that can remain open. However, we have less flexibility with the Player to choose but will be in touch with Native Instruments and see if some sort of solution can be provided.

Gary Garritan

[Ryan (cyrosis)]

There are some things we want to remain protected as in the first version (and new features added), but other things that can remain open. However, we have less flexibility with the Player to choose but will be in touch with Native Instruments and see if some sort of solution can be provided.

Gary GarritanI can 100% understand passwording the script (and some other safegaurds), so this to me is not a problem in the least.

I am very glad you have taken our thoughts into consideration, and if I may make a suggestion, would there be a way to release a new .nki file for users with the full Kontakt 2, with some of the other editable features, ala V1 (or similar) enabled, bypassing problems with the Kontakt Players limitations?

and thank you for your thoughts on this matter:)

[JPGarbarini]

Holy cow.. what happened to my thread :wow:

Ok, just to get us slightly back on track since my original questions wasn't answered.


What about adding convolution in the FULL version of K2. I know you can't do that in the player version (and I don't expect you could) but I still haven't figured out a way to open up the Insert Effects for an instance of the Strad 2 in the Full version of K2. That you should be able to do.

[Tarkio]

I'm able to add the convolution reverb presets in the full version of K2. Sounds great. This is indeed a revolutionary instrument, not a sample library.