Barber Violin Concerto Stradi 2.0

[joaz]

Here is my version of the opening of the Barber Violin Concero. (3 min 20 seconds).

Barber Violin Concerto Version2.mp3 (http://joecavanagh.com/Audio/Barber_Violin_Concerto_Version_2.mp3)

The Orchestra is my normal GPO VSL SAM Brass hybrid.
This proved to be a very tough piece to pull off using virtual instruments.
Highly Romantic, very Rubato in feeling.

The closing tutti has always reminded me of those overwrought 1940's film scores ( Casablanca etc,). :)

This is one of Barbers most celebrated and performed works, and some say it has a recognisably "American" sound.

All comments welcome.

regards Joe

[Larry G. Alexander]

Nice going, Mr. Joe! Beautiful realization. You handled the upper fiddle register without being screechy and that's not easy to do.

Thanks for posting this. Your talents impress me.

Best regards,

Larry

[Fabio]

The rendering of the orchestra, including tempo are excellent.

And a nice expressions in the Stradi part.
I'm just wondering if the sound of the low register dominating the piece can be improved a little (eg. lower velocity in some attack and more vibrato variations?).

A very warm and evocative piece, yes, good choice!

[rpearl]

Ah, an old favorite! Have you done anything with the second movement?
Wow, the range of expression/articulation you get out of the Strad is very impressive, indeed. It may be the compression to mp3, but it could have a little more room/ambience; it all sounded a little too close. But, I imagine your intention was to show off the Strad - hey, just like a concerto!

Thanks for showing what can be done.

All the best.

Ron

[oldbob]

Joe, this is really excellent! And I must confess I had never heard this concerto, now I know what cd I'll buy next time a enter a store... your rendition of the orchestra is outstanding! There are just a couple of notes in the violin at the beginning that have some kind of 'reed timbre' in there but the overall sound is impressive, bravissimo!

Roberto

[GaryBric]

Joe,

Excellent work on this very difficult to produce work. You hard work really shows and the use of the libraries made it come together. Well done!

Gary

www.garybricault.com (http://www.garybricault.com)

[joaz]

You handled the upper fiddle register without being screechy and that's not easy to do.

Best regards,

Larry
Thanks Mr Larry. I was very aware of this problem, and tried to make some suitable compensations.
I fear I may have gone too far with these compensations, and so have amended the mp3.

Thanks for stopping by. :)

regards Joe

[joaz]

I'm just wondering if the sound of the low register dominating the piece can be improved a little

Thanks Fabio.
I have been worrying about this problem, and am very grateful to you, for pointing it out.

I have been trying to create a bit more distance from the Stradi sound without, drowning it in reverb.

I have been experimenting with eq to create the sound of a Stradi heard from 15 metres.

I think I used too much of this eq, and have remixed it and uploaded.

It is very easy to use Reverb or Impulse responses to create this desired distance. But I have found, that the ideal amount for the Stradi can be too much for the Brass and Percussion, if you are trying to keep a realistic soundstage.

I use SIR to utilise the IR's for reverb, but I think I will have to move up to Altiverb, to gain more subtle control of placement on the soundstage.

It is early days with the Stradi2 and we are all still finding our way to bring the best out of this fantastic instrument. ;)

regards Joe

[joaz]

And I must confess I had never heard this concerto, now I know what cd I'll buy next time a enter a store...

Roberto
I am glad that I am introducing you to this piece Roberto. ( That was one of my intentions in doing this piece)
It is a fascinating composition, rich in lyricism, and beautiful harmony. I think that there was some complaint that the first 2 movements were not virtuosic enough, so the finale, compensates by being ridiculously diificult. ;) ( Composers can be like that. )

Thank you for pointing out the "reedy" timbre, I have dialled back the eq, and uploaded a new version. :)

regards Joe

[joaz]

Joe,

Excellent work on this very difficult to produce work. !

Gary

www.garybricault.com (http://www.garybricault.com)
Cheers Gary.
If I would have known how difficult, I would never have started. ~|
But now............. I am glad I did.

regards Joe

[GaryBric]

Cheers Gary.
If I would have known how difficult, I would never have started. ~|
But now............. I am glad I did.

regards Joe

Like so many other projects. They ALWAYS turn out more difficult that expected. One just hopes that the rewards outweigh the effort :D

Gary

www.garybricault.com (http://www.garybricault.com)

[Rhap2]

WOW, Joe:

You blew me away with this one. First of all, your hybrid orchestra is so very convincing, so beautifully constructed and it is so great to listen to as every instrument stands out where it should. The balance of the ensemble is also well-defined.

Your use of the Stradi 2.0 is almost miraculous. Not being a string player, it was hard for me to think this wasn't a "real" recording by someone with a sampled orchestra for accompaniment.

BRAVO, Joaz. Really great........

Jack

[orbit_over_luna]

Joe, this is BEAUTIFUL!!
I was not familiar with this piece, so thank you for introducing it to me.
You said that you were mixing the strad for about 15 feet and yet it sounds so wonderfully intimate...
I don't think I've heard anything quite like it.
Orbit

[joaz]

Ah, an old favorite! Have you done anything with the second movement?

Ron
Thanks Ron, No I have not looked at the 2nd movt.

I always feel a bit split when doing these kind of demo;s.

The sensible rational part of me thinks I have spent far too much time on this.

The driven maniac, wants to at least complete the movement, and maybe the other 2 movts, and maybe every other Vln concerto ever written, to supply a little context.

Luckily for me, the sensible part is holding out. :D

regards Joe

[joaz]

Your use of the Stradi 2.0 is almost miraculous.

Jack

Why, thank you Jack.
The Stradi 2.0 is indeed a miraculous instrument, but 2 others deserve more credit than I.

Barber, who definitely knew what he was about, when writing for strings, not to mention his Superb orchestration.

Giorgio, for making this Violin so playable.

I have been married to a violin player for 27 years, and spent most of that time envying her choice of instrument.
It is fun to think an unworthy wretch such as I, can grapple with the wonderful repetoire available to violinists. :D

regards Joe

[joaz]

Joe, this is BEAUTIFUL!!
I was not familiar with this piece, so thank you for introducing it to me.
You said that you were mixing the strad for about 15 feet and yet it sounds so wonderfully intimate...
I don't think I've heard anything quite like it.
Orbit

Thanks Orbit.
The Stradi sounds very different from a distance. It sounds less nasal and "scrapy".
Although it is these very characteristics that help lift it above a Symphony Orchestra.
As you get further from the sound source, the Sweetness of its tone starts to take over. I am still experimenting with the best way to achieve this effect, without resorting to HUGE amounts of reverb.

Version 2.0 of the Stradi is already close to this ideal sound, but I enjoy experimenting .If the samples had been recorded at 15 metres, this forum would be full of posts, asking how to get rid of the ambience in the samples to create a more intimate sound.
But the requirements for a concerto are different, than for a Sonata, String Quartet or Concertmaster.

I do not claim to have found the ideal settings yet, but I am enjoying the process of discovery. :)

regards Joe

[rpearl]

Thanks Ron, No I have not looked at the 2nd movt.

I always feel a bit split when doing these kind of demo;s.

The sensible rational part of me thinks I have spent far too much time on this.

The driven maniac, wants to at least complete the movement, and maybe the other 2 movts, and maybe every other Vln concerto ever written, to supply a little context.

Luckily for me, the sensible part is holding out. :D

regards Joe

Well Joe, if you take on the last movement, you'll have your hands full; it would make a good test of short articulations.

Do you find doing mock-ups (sounds kinda cheap - sorry) helps in the learning curve of how to use this new technology? I would imagine so...

Ron

[joaz]

Do you find doing mock-ups (sounds kinda cheap - sorry) helps in the learning curve of how to use this new technology? I would imagine so...

Ron
Yes Ron, I think they can be quite helpful.

When I am composing, 90% of my brains cpu is devoted to note wrangling.
So without the burden of writing, I feel a little more free, to focus on the more technical aspects of rendering.

The hope is, certain aspects of this more technical approach become instinctive, and therefore useful when the brains cpu meter is lurching wildly into the red.

I have promised my wife a violin sonata, so the Barber is something of a warm-up. ;)

regards Joe

[rpearl]

Your wife sings and plays the violin? Too much talent in your household...;)

Ron

[valhalx]

Joe,
This is yet another amazing demo / mockup from you (never liked either of those terms). In fact, you are fast becoming the demo master, lol. The balance and space in this is approaching a live recording. The articulations, dynamics and phrasings in the orchestra are convincingly executed. The Strad, though, is something we've never heard from samples. A sample library able convey the subtleties of virtuoso violin playing and you have done a fine job using this tool to interpret the Barber. Well done and Bravo.
Bill

[joaz]

The Strad, though, is something we've never heard from samples. A sample library able convey the subtleties of virtuoso violin playing...
Thanks Bill, in my own writing, I don't normally spend to much time on making the mock-up ultra-realistic. It takes a lot of energy to write a piece, deliver a professional looking score, after which I normally want to forget it, and move swiftly on to the next piece.

It was the Iain Ballamy tutorial, that got me interested in the question," How real could you make it ?" This made me think a bit more deeply about how midi controllers interact.

Part of the Garritan methodology, is to use well programmed controller information, rather than huge amounts of Samples with their accompanying key switches.

I really like what Markleford said about it...........


Over this project I personally got to like the Garritan method of 'a controller for everything' rather than 'a keyswitched sample for everything'. Made me feel more like a sculptor than a Lego block builder. :D
I find this to be substantially true, there is a feeling akin to carving or sculpting, to reveal the spirit of the music which is buried in the mere notes.
I think it also possible to get very decent results without going into ludicrous levels of detail.
But a little time spent researching which controller information delivers the most impressive results, for the amount of time spent, can prove to be of benefit later, when there is less time available.

regards Joe

[Rhap2]

Iain Ballamy tutorial? Where can I find that one, Joe?

[joaz]

Iain Ballamy tutorial? Where can I find that one, Joe?

You can find it here , Jack.
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=411498#post411498

regards Joe

[Rhap2]

Thanks, Joe.

Jack

[nikolas]

Joe,

I find this rendering to be close to perfection! The only thing that did bug me a little were a couple of repeated notes, that seemed to gave away the computer mock-up. Other than that the mxiing is perfect, the orchestra simply rocks and everything is just fine...

But I havew a question for you and the rest of the people who post things like that.

Being rather new here, I dont' know your relationship with Garritan. Same goes with the other Joe (Jbacal I think) and VSL.

You post renderings for well (or relatively known) scores, not composed for you.Right now in the first page of the forum there is the Adagio of Albinoni, now this.

My question: Why? Why would you like to spend time trying to render something, that already exists in the recordings, that already is there, and that is not yours to cherrish so much?

Please forgive my small intrusion, but it holds very much interest to me, as it has never occured to me to do a mock-up for another work apart my own ones (or for a friend, but...anyways...)

Nikolas

:)

[joaz]

My question: Why? Why would you like to spend time trying to render something, that already exists in the recordings, that already is there, and that is not yours to cherrish so much?
Nikolas

:)
Nikolas, Interesting question.
I cannot presume to speak for Jay Bacal,DPDan and others, but here is my take on it.

1. Practise.
Pianists practise scales, Orchestrators practise orchestraion,Virtual orchestrators practise Virtual Orchestraion.
As I mentioned on answer #18 in this thread, working on the the techniques of rendering alone, frees up a lot of brainpower.
2. Comparison
In the cases of beta-testing, like with the Gofriller Cello, it is easier to compare how it is meausiring up to real world comparisons, by producing demo's of known work.
3.Familiarity
It is a great way of getting to know what a powerful sound library is capable of. What are its strengths, what are its weaknesses.

I am first and foremost a composer, and the vast bulk of works I have posted on this forum have been my own original compositions.
I intend to write a Violin Sonata soon.
Doing the Barber, was something of a preliminary exercise.

Others, may have their own answer, on the merits or otherwise of Classical mock-ups, but this is my personal view.

regards Joe

[nikolas]

Thank you, Joe,

I appreciate you answer. :)

*Nikolas notes down to go and check Joes' other compositions*

(I did say that I'm rather new here, didn't I?)

[GrahamKeitch]

All comments welcome.


Not much I can add to this Joe, except to say thanks for posting this excellent demo. This raises the bar and gives the rest of us something to aspire to! Enjoyed this a lot - and look forward to hearing your own Sonata in due course.

Regards, Graham

[etLux]

Thank you, my friend.

Others have talked about the technical points.

I will talk about the music.

I fell head-over-heels in love with this piece the first time
I heard it, almost thirty years ago; to my mind, one of the
finest of Barber's works; and clearly one of the most stunning
violin concerti ever written.

And in this rendition, Joe, even this short excerpt, the
tears ran from my eyes in rivers. I know you as a
fine composer; but in this, I see you now in the light
of interpreter and performer. That light it is strong and
clear... and you have brought the voice of this old friend
to me with ravishing insight and deepest emotion.

As I said:

Thank you, my friend.

With greatest admiration,



David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[DPDAN]

WOW Joe!

You got the Strad dancin' like a Strad should.
Cool!
Barber WOW!
Dan

[joaz]

Not much I can add to this Joe, except to say thanks for posting this excellent demo.
Regards, Graham
Thanks for listening Graham. :)

regards Joe

[joaz]

I fell head-over-heels in love with this piece the first time
I heard it, almost thirty years ago; to my mind, one of the
finest of Barber's works; and clearly one of the most stunning
violin concerti ever written.
David
www.DavidSosnowski.com (http://www.DavidSosnowski.com)
.
David, thank you so much for those kind words.
I too, fell in love with this piece over 30 yeras ago.
At the risk of courting controversy, this piece encapsulates some of the feelings, that made the USA so admired throughout the world.

Largeness of vision, open-hearted, idealistic, optomistic, energetic, awareness of tradition used as a springboard to investigate new ideas, a democratic balance between orthodox conservatoire-approved development techniques, and gorgeous folksy tunes, that a plumber could whistle.

I could go on and on.....

I was recuperating from a series of operations, a couple of years ago, and in my darkest hours, it was the 1st movt of this concerto, that got me through. Life must be worth enduring if it has music like this, in it. :)

I would like to publicly thank you for the private help you gave me on this.
David heard an early draft of this piece, and made many excellent suggestions, which I took on board.

Thank you, my friend, for the warm appreciation. It truly means a lot to me.

regards Joe

[joaz]

WOW Joe!

You got the Strad dancin' like a Strad should.
Cool!
Barber WOW!
Dan
Cheers Dan.
Dan also made many excellent suggestions, in preparing this piece.
If I have made any improvements in my rendering skills, since joining this forum, a lot of that must be due to DPDan.
I have hungrily read, everything he has ever posted on the subject, and he has kindly given me many pointers, on how to get the most out of Sample Libraries.

Thanks for everything. ;)

regards Joe