Velocity for Section Strings

[4209fr]

Hidy-Ho, again, Folks -
Well, we resolved the instrument range issue, or, at least, found out what can and can't be done about it.

I just came across a new problem. So maybe I can get some more good help from you guys (gals).

I hadn't tried this before, but I want to do it on the current 'Classical' piece that I am finishing up. In the course of a lot of works, a few notes are "accented" - a strong "attack", not necessarily a sfz, but that would be the far end of the spectrum. With individual instruments, maximizing the Velocity will give an strong(er) accent to the note's attack. But with Section Strings I tried varying the Note Velocity (and, also with the CC1 value), and I can hear absolutely no difference from the Velocity being 127 or 5 (with a constant CC1 value). Do Section Strings not respond to Velocity, or is there something else going on here? Is there some other way to give a note an 'accent'? (I didn't see anything concerning this in the Strings Master Class article on the Garritan website, either).

Any help will be appreciated.
Frank

[vic_france]

I would suggest that you double with a short Marcato or Spiccato preset, and set that to be highly resposive to velocity, and set its basic level so that it sounds like a natural attack to the main legato preset when played at high velocity, .. that way, you'll hardly hear it at low velocity levels.. the result can be quite realistic.

[RichR]

Hmmm... I just tried it with violin I Lush Strings and the notes that had the velocity se a 5 were smoother sounding than the ones that were set at 127 which had a nice strong attack to them. The mod wheel (CC1) was set to 127 and that gave the biggest contrast. With CC1 at lower levels the contrast was less and less obvious. I did this test in Tracktion 2 and set the CC's and velocity by drawing them in the midi editor. I just put in a scale up and down an octave and made the first half with low velocity and the descending octave with a velocity of 127. Than I just altered the mod wheel settings.

Other than what I just tested, I can't imagine what is giving you the problem, unless you have you have your options in the Kontakt player set to "Use STD. CC#7, CC#10 volume and pan" button turned on. That would change the way GPO functions.

Wish I could be of more help.

[4209fr]

Vic -
I don't see a Marcato or Spiccato option in any of the Section Strings. I wish that I did have it. I am using Sus+Short. In looking over the piece, though, I don't see any note that is shorter than an eighth and the tempo is rather slow. So, like Rich said that he tried, I could use the Lush option.

Rich -
You might be on to something. I do, normally, have the Option set to use CC7 and 10 for Volume and Pan, so that I can make one volume envelope for all tracks (instruments) - if that is a possibility (having most/all instruments at a similar dynamic level).
I may switch to Lush strings and take the the CC7/10 option off.
If you don't mind, will you put the CC7/10 option on and try it, again, and let me know if you get no difference, also. (I am using Sonar 5PE).

Thanx for the inputs.
Frank

[RichR]

Frank, I tried it with the volume CC#7 and pan CC#10 set to on and the effect of the velocity wasn't as good. I believe this setting is for people who don't have mod wheels on there keyboards and need to do dynamic expression with the volume slider on there keyboard.

Anyway, I think Vic has the right idea about marcato/spiccato to add the attack you are looking for. I don't have time at the moment to check which keyswitches those are but, I believe you will find them in the samples that have KS appended to the instruments name, i.e. Violin I KS.

Hope this helps.

[4209fr]

I hadn't thought about the Marcato, etc., being on the KS settings. I will try that, too.

I changed to Lush strings with CC7/10 off. I tried to make an 'accent' using Velocity and CC1 combos. In general, there was an effect, but the best I can do is to have it sound like a very short < > rather than a stronger attack at Note On. I moved the CC1 from a couple of ticks before the note to right on top of the note. It just makes the < > shorter.

Another strange thing that I noticed, when I draw an envelope for CC1, it does not appear on the Piano Roll View. The original setting that I placed there before the first note(s) has always been there. The envelope works; it is just not displayed in the Piano Roll View. The additional CC1 event for the 'accent' attempts did show up on the envelope, though.

Well, I'll try the Marcato, now.

Thanx, again.
Frank

[4209fr]

Hey, I'm sorry, guys, but I can't find anything about Marcato (or Spiccato) on the Kontakt Player or in the Update Info. KS are expanded to variations of Sus+Short, Up-,Downbows, Pizz, Trem, and Trills. I don't see anything about Marcato, there. The closest thing I could find is a MIDI controller (CC16) for "aggressive bow noise for short bows". I'm not sure that will give me what I am looking for since the accents are associated with 'longer' notes.

So, can you further explain the "Marcato" references?

Frank

[Haydn]

The Sus+Short patch has both sustained and a layered marcato (short) sound in the patch. The amount of velocity controls the amount of the marcato layer being played. CC1 controls over volume and timbre. With high attacks you should be hearing the marcato layer even if CC1 is at full. Make sure that CC64 is not on (127) or you won't hear the marcato layer.

Jim

[4209fr]

Haydn -
Thanx for your reply. I sort of jumped directly to the Lush patch(es) without trying the CC7/10 Off, with the original Sus+Short patch, first. So I changed back to Sus+Short because I had already programmed the Velocity and CC1. So the CC7/10 Option is OFF.

I am testing the Violin 1 (Section) track to see what the response to various settings (suggestions) is. That track is set at "piano" (CC1=24) and the Velocity has been set at a constant 64. For the Marcato (accent) note, I boosted the Velocity to 90, then 127. I could hear absolutely no difference between the Marcato note and the notes before and after it.

Just like with the Lush patch(es), if I boost the CC1 up for the accented note then place another CC1 back to 24 about a 1/16th after (slow tempo), I get a very short, but noticeable < > (the Velocity is constant at 64). This effect is somewhat unacceptable. I would rather not use anything than use it. And, since the Velocity (with Sus+Short) does not seem to be working for me, I guess that I will just have to forego having accented notes for the strings. (Other instruments are not from GPO).



If someone has an idea why Haydn's suggestion (I guess the way things are supposed to work) is not working for me, please let me know.

Thanx, again.
Frank

[Haydn]

Frank,

You should definitely hear a big difference in the attack as you go from low velocities to high velocities. Make sure you have CC1 up high enough to hear them - maybe around 100. What different do you hear when you use the sustain pedal for legato mode (CC64)? You should hear almost no attack or none at all with the sustain pedal down (CC64 = 127). You should have attack with sustain pedal off (CC64 = 0).

What program are you sequencing in? Is it re-assigning velocity to something else?

Jim

[4209fr]

Haydn -
Thanx for working with me on this. Velocity is a constant 64 throughout the piece except for the 'test' (accented) note, where I have tried Velocity = 90 and 127, with CC1 = 24 and 64 for each Velocity. In none of the 'tests' was I able to hear any difference between the notes before and after the 'test' (accent) note and the 'test' note. The notes before and after the 'test' note have CC1 = 24 and Velocity = 64. I tested on the Violin 1 Section track (solo'd). In a previous attempt, I did have a high CC1, at 90 and 127, and high Velocities, but no difference was heard between the 'test' (accented) note and its neighbors (non-accented). If the Marcato only works at high Veocities and High CC1, then how does one achieve an 'accent' at low dynamic levels?

I do not use CC64 (pedal). I checked on the Kontakt Player and CC64 was 0%.

I use Sonar 5PE. I have to program, then select CC1 on Sonar's Piano Roll to program GPO strings (and others) with the CC7/10 Option OFF, so I have to make these selections when I change the CC1 or Velocity. So I don't think that Sonar is changing anything (Velocity) in the process.

Any ideas?
Frank

[4209fr]

I'm working with a Solo Violin part, now, so I decided to try some of the things suggested from the thread on this track.

Typical results (for me) are: With CC1 at 32 (piano) and Velocity at 32, I get a 'standard' piano or mezzo-piano sound. If I raise the Velocity on one, 'longer' note (dotted quarter), I get a good attack, but the 'loudness' is sustained for the entire note, even if a 'low' CC1 is placed right after (a 32nd) after the Velocity mark. The low volume returns at the next note (with the low Velocity).

So my take on the effect of Velocity with GPO is what has been the complaint about the use of Velocity all along - the reason most people use Velocity for dynamics management (which it should not be in favor of CC7). But I have not been able to get a REAL "accented" piano-level note to sound. The closest I can come is using the CC1 (irregardless of the Velocity) on the note of interest - place a strong CC1, followed immediately (like a 32nd) after by the level you want (like 'piano'). But this gives you a short < > around the note's attack, which gives an inacceptable volume rise, rather than just a strong 'attack' from the get-go.

So, using Velocity to make an 'accent' (or Marcato) in a 'piano' passage, you get an 'accented' note at mf (or higher), surrounded by notes at p volume, which is not an 'accented' note - it is just a louder note.

Is there another way to attempt this? Am I doing something 'wrong'?

Frank

[Haydn]

Frank,

I think your misunderstanding the use of the controllers. CC1 (Modulation) and velocity are independent of each other in GPO. Velocity is always used to control the attack for brass, woodwind, solo strings and long bow section string patches (Sus+short, tremolo, etc.). CC1 is to control volume and timbre. With lower CC1 levels you can still control the attack although it won't be as noticable because CC1 lowers the higher harmonics at lower levels. BTW, only the sus+short strings have the extra marcato layer of samples. All other patches vary the attack time with the velocity amount.

I'm also using Sonar and velocity is very noticable on my system. Under the MIDI tab on the Global options is velocity unchecked by any chance? This could cause Sonar to not pass velocities.

Jim

[4209fr]

Haydn -
Thanx for hangin' in there with me.
I am aware of the proper use of Velocity and CC1 (for GPO) or CC7 for other sound sources (hence my comment from a previous post that so many people falsely use Velocity as Volume - but it works, and that is why it is done). I use the track Volume Envelope (with Nodes) and use Velocity in a very "broad brush" fashion (like at only 2 different values for a piece whose dynamics vary from p to ff).

I repeat, when CC7/10 Option is turned OFF, when I have a passage in either a Solo Violin or Section Strings - Sus+Short, where the CC1 is 32 (for a 'piano' dynamic level), I can hear no difference in the resulting sound of a note(s) if the Velocity is 32, or 64, or 90 or 127. If the CC1 is higher, like 90, then I get an emphasized attack for a note(s) if the Velocity is about the same or higher, but that note will be an f dynamic level for its entire length (in a 'piano' passage). (And, you only get 1 Velocity per note since it is not a CC). But the way things are working for me, I still ask the question, how can you get an accented note in a 'piano' passage?

I checked my Options - Global - MIDI settings and I do not see the word "Velocity" on that 'page' or any other Global Options page. The only boxes that are unchecked are the "Key Aftertouch" and "Channel Aftertouch".

I don't know, maybe my DSP is doing something weird. I am using the E-MU 1820. I have a 2.6GHz CPU. What else might be causing my lack of 'response' for this situation, since, obviously, you are getting out of your computer what I am unable to get out of mine (with the same program). Do you think that I should try it on Sonar 3 or 4?

Frank

[Haydn]

Frank,

I couldn't remember if there was a velocity option on the MIDI page without having the program in front of me. My music OS is separate from my internet OS.

You will get less attack with CC1 down at 32 because it also uses a low pass filter with the volume. This will cut down on higher harmonics. String players in real life do not have a heavy attack when playing soft. It can be quick but not heavy. I recommend that you constantly vary attacks as it will help with the machine gun effect. Playing at just a couple velocities will not sound realistic. I also recommend to ride CC1 constantly to shape the notes. Real string sections are constantly changing volume from beginning to end on each note. You will get much more realistic performances this way.

If you are still having issue, please contact Gary Garritan for support. He wil be glad to assist you.

Jim

[rbowser-]

Hello, 4209

I just read through this entire thread, and it's been almost excruciating to vicariously struggle through with you while you keep trying to get the effects you want, and Haydn keeps trying to help out.

It really does seem that you still aren't using MIDI controls as they were uniquely re-designed for GPO usage.

After years of using standard MIDI synths, it was an interesting experience for me to re-think so many things when I first got GPO. I think I'm typical in that it took me awhile to really become comfortable with the GPO approach. But I'm certainly happy I hung in there, because when GPO is used as the programmers designed it, there are very satisfying rewards.

Earlier in this thread you said:


I do, normally, have the Option set to use CC7 and 10 for Volume and Pan

And I'm not sure you were totally convinced by the end of this discussion if you really need to Not use CC7 and 10, but rather the unique GPO system of CC1 etc. You also said you never use CC64---which defeats one of the best GPO features--believable Legato minus the dreaded "machine gun" effect.


I use the track Volume Envelope (with Nodes) and use Velocity in a very "broad brush" fashion (like at only 2 different values for a piece whose dynamics vary from p to ff).

Haydn responded to that, but I just Had to come in to reiterate that you are working against yourself in several ways. Velocity values should cover the entire 127 point range, and be in constant flux--two exact velocities side by side being unusual. Playing parts expressively from a keyboard is the best start for this, but a great deal of editing in a Piano View window will improve the results. Not using CC1 in a constantly changing, dynamic way only compounds the problems.


If the CC1 is higher, like 90, then I get an emphasized attack for a note(s) if the Velocity is about the same or higher, but that note will be an f dynamic level for its entire length.

That is exactly the problem with working as you have been. CC1 isn't a switch controller which you use only once in awhile to change basic over-all volume, it's something you need to record in a continuously moving and changing way. In your quoted example--after the attack of the note, Play the modulation wheel so the note's volume swoops lower, and Doesn't sustain at f for its length. Without doing that, you've severely damaged the effectiveness of GPO's excellent samples.


I still ask the question, how can you get an accented note in a 'piano' passage?

As Haydn said--you get that with low CC1 values but high velocity values. Mod wheel down, heavy attack on the velocity sensitive keys of your keyboard--or, draw in a strong velocity of between 100 and 127.

I seriousl doubt if there's anything wrong with your computer or the way your Sonar is set up. There's an accumulation of incorrect approaches which are defeating you. Of course if you've chosen somewhere, maybe on your keyboard, to have a flat velocity response--that would be a problem. Those kind of settings are meant for playing instruments such as an organ where you want whole passages to have the same exact velocity.

One final thought--There's a cute illustration used in the GPO manual and on the site, of a musician playing a keyboard with his right hand while keeping his left hand on the mod wheel, and his foot on the sustain pedal. The implication is that one should do all three of those things at the same time, to make the GPO sounds come to life. Theoretically perfectly true. But when recording a project, there's no need to do this "rub your stomach and pat your head while walking" peformance. I routinely record the notes of the passage I'm working on, playing it expressively with all the natural variations of velocity. Then I go back and sculpt the volume with the mod wheel. Then I go back once again and insert CC64 for Legato, with a combination of live sustain pedal use and manually inserting events in Sonar.

GPO is a unique program. Taking the manual's instructions Literally is the only way to get results like those one can hear on the GPO demo page.

Best of luck, Frank!

rbowser