Why Things Are Late

[Garritan]

It has been a difficult few months. The bugs in the new Strad Player have finally been resolved and another new Player will be released very shortly.

We are tied to Native instruments and much of what we do hinges on them.

If there is a delay in Player releases, we are delayed. If things need fixing, we are further delayed.

Because of the long delays with the Player, there is now a large backlog of existing and new third-party libraries waiting for the new player (especially for the holidays and NAMM) along with NI's own product schedule. Combine this with a limited staff at NI and further delays occur. I am told it will probably take a month or longer to encode new masters and make it available to users.

This throws our schedule out of whack.

In all fairness to Native Instruments, they are dealing with complicated technology that works on so many platforms and they have done a great job on being on the forefront of music technology. It is very difficult to do the things they are doing and I can see why delays often plague the software industry (e.g. Microsoft Vista). They have done admirably in what they have accomplished and helped many of us to make music.

I feel at a loss when there are circumstances beyond our control. Especially since most calls and email we are receiving are people asking about the new players and new products. This is difficult and we don't like these long delays any more than anyone.

Does anyone have any ideas or solutions?

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Gary Garritan

[YBaCuO]

Constant communication with your customers and customers-to-be will certainly help. The impatience we face now will be forgotten after release.

Obviously, the fact that you are tied to NI does cause a loss of control and conflict over priorities. Many major sample developers have decided to invest into their own player technology.

But here are some ideas to help your existing customers stay loyal (remember that GPO is 3 years old now!):

(1) Do a group buy, if that is still proftable for you (and if you have the time - remember that you swore never to do a group buy again after all the work the last one caused!).. Your customers will love it and you, and they will be distracted from further delays (having a new toy to play with will help).

(2) Release some simple impulse sets (a small selection from one hall from Real Spaces) to use in the free SIR. Then let DPDAN work out one standard SIR settings for everyone to use. Adopters will immediately gain an improved sound from GPO and then get "addicted" to impulses (think impulse buy).

Good luck and impatiently yours,

YBaCuO

[wst3ae]

Constant communication with your customers and customers-to-be will certainly help. The impatience we face now will be forgotten after release.

I think this is the key... the industry as a whole has become so addicted to vapor-ware that when there are legitimate reasons for a delay they are often as not ignored!

If you were to provide regular updates I think 90% of the complaints would evaporate! Most of the folks that you proudly call customers are reasonable people!!!


Obviously, the fact that you are tied to NI does cause a loss of control and conflict over priorities. Many major sample developers have decided to invest into their own player technology.
In the end there is only one answer to this problem, and you already know that! If you want to be independent you will have to develop your own player, and I can't see how that could possibly be practical! Even adopting an open source player would be a very costly adventure!


(1) Do a group buy, if that is still proftable for you (and if you have the time - remember that you swore never to do a group buy again after all the work the last one caused!).. Your customers will love it and you, and they will be distracted from further delays (having a new toy to play with will help).
I don't know... a group buy is a great way to build enthusiasm, but how much enthusiasm does one company need? I think it might be a great gesture to show that you value your customers, but I don't know how many minds it will change.

Except for one group... there are professionals who are used to spending kilobucks for libraries, and some of them simply discount anything that doesn't cost a lot. A group buy might just push the prices down to the point where they would have nothing to lose by making the purchase... but then if you are used to spending thousands I can't imagine why you wouldn't gamble a couple of hundred. Tough call!


(2) Release some simple impulse sets (a small selection from one hall from Real Spaces) to use in the free SIR. Then let DPDAN work out one standard SIR settings for everyone to use. Adopters will immediately gain an improved sound from GPO and then get "addicted" to impulses
Now this is an intriguing idea!!! Although I'd release small sets from more than one space to really demonstrate the power of convolution reverb. Yeah, If you are anywhere near releasing the Real Spaces library this would be a great sales pitch!


(think impulse buy).

That was bad!!!

[JonFairhurst]

Ahh. The old single-source supplier problem The solution? Multiple sources.

Hopefully, Tascam's GVI strategy will mature to the point that you can target your libs at them as well. It's certainly more work, but could grow your available market. Best of all, any time one sampler leapfrogs the other, you're right there.

We will have yet more disruption with Vista. Keep your options open. Who knows what company will port the best technology to 64-bits first.

[ZareOne]

I have been waiting for GPOA since it was anonunced. I don't know how long has it been. The reason I am waiting for it, is that I know it's gonna be the best orchestral library in its range and (call me fool If you want) I think it's going to be better than Sonic Implants, VSL and EWQL. I could buy VSL Opus 1 & 2 or EWQL Gold + XP, but I prefer to save my money for GPOA, GOS2 and the Garritan Solo Strings.

I think people will understand the situation, Gary. You rely on third party software, so it's not your fault. I'll be waiting. The later, the more money we'll save.

In the meantime, you could do a Group Buy for the Strad :D. I really think it will showcase the Sonic Morphing, and a lot of people will want to buy the rest of solo strings.

Releasing a lite version of the Real Spaces would be soooo nice! We all can have convolution engines, but there aren't any decent IR's of real Concert Halls, except those from Altiverb. But Altiverb is too expensive for a lot of people. Maybe a set of IR's from 6 positions on the stage from one in the audience (centered, of course) will do fine. I'll pay $150 for a set like this, with at least 4 concert halls, and maybe a jazz club, recording studio and church. ;)

But don't worry about being late, man. We are going to wait for your products the time needed, becuase we know it will surpass our spectations.

You are doing very well Gary!!

[Serge]

Does anyone have any ideas or solutions?
Gary Garritan

Buy NI :D

SergeD

[GrahamKeitch]

Releasing a lite version of the Real Spaces would be soooo nice! ..... Maybe a set of IR's from 6 positions on the stage from one in the audience (centered, of course) will do fine. I'll pay $150 for a set like this, with at least 4 concert halls, and maybe a jazz club, recording studio and church. ;)

You are doing very well Gary!!

I agree with both of these comments.

And thanks Gary for keeping us posted.

Regards, Graham

[nikolas]

It is such a difficult position Gary. I can understand how you perosnally feel and how everybody would feel in your position, including all communication center at Garritan offices... :-/

It is certinaly a problem that needs addressing.

As it seems the community here already knows about this, and everyone with a head above his body knows that NI is i. doing a great job and ii. late. There's no secret to that.

I fear that designing yuourown player would mean a huge investment and (seeing things with QControl) huge delays as well. Buying NI would not make a difference either :D:D:D (I know it's a joke).

The only thing is to educate your clients and your potential clients of this ufortunate event(s) without of course blaming NI. After all it happens all the time.

But I have to confess that I'm a little buffled as to what's wrong with the current technology of NI. I mean everybody need the new Intel Macs? Why not use the existing technology for the PCs? Why not build the betas based on current technology. hoping that programming and mapping will not go entirely to waste, and since basically you have the samples but not the programming and the programmers are (probably) just doing little... Why not at least make the beta? Anyway hopefully not the whole work will go to waste (assuming you can port programming and mapping to the new players). In the end, if nothing else, don't you need to test the recordings you did? Even if the players are not ready? You might end up at least with highly interesting demos, along with proofs to stop the mouths of everyone bad minded.

On the other hand as far as I know GPOA and GOS2 are based on new technology to come, in which case, no current technology will do an good.

All of this based on assumptions, I repeat, so in any case eccuse my ignorance please. :)

[Cantabile]

Does anyone have any ideas or solutions?


Gary Garritan
Patience is the solution. YOu want something to work right then why release something with buggy situations? Better to be patient and wait for a less problematic thing then to be impatient and aggravated when something does not go your way with a new gadget.

[C J Pro]

Does anyone have any ideas or solutions?


Start hiring high school students to do software development for minimum wage or higher? :D

I think NI needs to get a little more organized in their development and that Garritan Libraries company needs to offer more benefits to their users.

[tradivoro]

Well, I guess by the time everythign is realeased, we'll have the whole string quartet available to us... So, that'll be good... In the meanwhile, I think everyone's money will spend just as well later as sooner, so we'll all wait a little longer... Yeah, a group buy for the strad would be nice, but would it be good for Garritan & Co.? Well, if it is, I'm sure it will spark great enthusiasm with everyone... :)

[musicpete]

The impulse Idea sounds great! How about creating an intermediate impulse product with only a few (good) impulsesand no engine, a kind of appetizer for the whole package, and sell it at a decent price? This certainly would get me crazy! :D

Of course I like the idea of releasing some content for free, but I hate the thought of you not getting proper compensation...

On the NI Problem: Besides their knack for selecting confusing and silly product names, my major concern with them always was the lack of communication (which for me implies that the company doesn't give a damn about its customers). The products on the other hand always spoke for themselves and always were of good quality (or at least fixed relatively quickly - e.g. Kontakt 1.5). Software design is a difficult business, especially with amazingly complex software like this.

I really like that you inform your customers! It shows that you care, which can't be said about NI.

However when investigating other player software, please please for the sake of your customers mental health do not look in the direction of Steinberg! Their Halion player product is such an immature piece of software and gives a lot of users (including myself) huge problems, to the point of being unusable for serious composing. And of course Steinberg doesn't care about their customers.... even less than NI.

GVI looks interesting but I am not knowledgeable engough to tell if it will be any good.

[etLux]

Buy NI :D



Yeah!

Hey, maybe if we all chipped in?

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[Wheat Williams]

The entire industry of computer based audio, video, graphics and publishing has had to endure the past year, in which everybody had to port their products to the new Mac Intel platform. Adobe is still three or four months away from releasing Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and the Flash and Shockwave tools for Mac Intel. There's a huge pent-up demand and it affects everybody.

25% of Garritan's customers, and 25% of Native Instruments' customers are on the Apple Macintosh platform. The Mac platform drives a great deal of innovation due to the competition it fosters. Windows is a much better platform because Microsoft constantly has to try to catch up with Apple's innovation. If there were no Macintosh, Windows would be much less than what it is today. I daresay that computer-based audio and music would be much less than it is today without this healthy competition.

This kind of cycle has happened numerous times in the history of computers, and this sort of thing will happen again. It's the price of progress and innovation. Every now and then there is a jagged break in the continuity of product development due to big leaps in hardware design.

The gaming industry is going through fits coming up with games that are native to the Nintendo Wii and the Sony Playstation 3. It's all part of the same thing.

My concern is this: With the economic realities being what they are, can Garritan remain an independent and privately owned company? Apple bought Emagic. Yamaha bought Steinberg. Avid bought Digidesign, Pinnacle, M-Audio, and recently Sibelius.

I certainly hope Garritan can remain independent and privately-owned, because it seems to work so well for Garritan and the excellent products they develop.

[Jerry W.]

Here's one that is not so simple, but perhaps is the long-term best way to go:


Create your own sample player.


Imagine having total control over every aspect of your products!!

I understand it would take you completely re-tooling your sample libraries from the NI Kontakt format to your own, but.......

You already led the way with cooperation with Finale and Sibelius with the notation aspects - both of whom released, in partnership with you, GPO versions of their flagship apps. I am sure that, given your popularity and reputation, they would be willing to do something similar to accomodate a new Garritan Sample Player. In the meantime, while re-tooling, you could revamp Garritan Studio to host your own player and make it very robust in features and hosting compatiblities.

Realspaces has so much potential - release a lite version to whet our appetites.

Hire some top-notch programmers, and create your own sampler. If there is ANYONE in this industy that has the popularity, reputation for fantastic products and service, and the momentum to be able to do this and do it successfully, it would be YOU.

Imagine where we'd be right now if you had no second and third-party partners to wait on while you innovate! Imagine a Garritan Sampler to host all Garritan Libraries along with your own Garritan Realspaces reverb. I think that would be just a grand thing.

Just my thought.

Jerry

[mixolydian]

I have been waiting for GPOA since it was anonunced. I don't know how long has it been. The reason I am waiting for it, is that I know it's gonna be the best orchestral library in its range and (call me fool If you want) I think it's going to be better than Sonic Implants, VSL and EWQL. I could buy VSL Opus 1 & 2 or EWQL Gold + XP, but I prefer to save my money for GPOA, GOS2 and the Garritan Solo Strings.


2nd this. I don't want to spent some money for a library I'm not satisfied with (unfortunately I did it two times). If GPOA and GOS2 are really leapfrogging all the others, I have no need for SICC, Opus or Gold.

BTW: When I think about GPOA the Stradi vibrato-control applied to solo woodwinds comes in mind... :wow: (It doesn't make me nervous if someone's saying a synthetic vibrato sounds synthetic - it is synthetic - but for sure an expressive one. :p)

...I'm psyched what GOS2 will be and sounds like. ~|

Kai

[C J Pro]

Two posts above me, Jerry proposed the idea of a custom sampler. I, myself, am a programmer. I'm currently learning C++, the language many programs are written in. Anyways, I tried the demo of Kontakt 2 out recently and saw almost every function and if statement in my head. It's rather funny that something that should be so simple is so complex. Here's how it works. Warning, there are some programming terms (mainly variable types) in the following.


Program initialization - Loads up the C/C++ libraries to control sound and MIDI, along with the GUI. It just consists of a few simple statements in the code to establish the GUI and to initialize the sound and MIDI controllers.
Storing variables - This comes as people loading up files and mapping them to the keys. All it is is just mapping sound files to a multidimensional array and then possibly loading the files into RAM.
Recieving input - This occurs when the person actually plays something on the keyboard. It just reads the input from the MIDI class and matches it to the corresponding sound in the array.
Processing - After the sound is found in the array, it will be able to process the sound with several modules (such as reverb).
Output - The process of outputting the sound. This can be done simply by saying to play the sound. Recording can also be done at this step.
Repeat back to 2. This is due to the fact the user will probably want to change something in their settings.When you put the entire program together, the most complicated portion of it would be the module system in it for the processing portion of it. The other portions are all straightforward and require little code. Gary, if you were to make your own sampler (or hire extra help to make it for you (me)), you could even add in your own features such as a built in recording module to record samples directly into the program.

[conwaylemmon]

Gary and all,
I was wondering if there is a way to make gpo and jabb run under rosetta with the new mac pro, or does it already work? i just assumed that it doesn't. it would be great in the mean time until the UB is ready, to be able to load gpo into my new mac pro.

[efiebke]

About a month ago I made a huge "investment" in purchasing my first Apple computer. It's a Intel Mac Pro workstation. I knew in purchasing this "bad boy" that it would take some time before my favorite audio software programs would be available for it. I had no idea, though, just how significant the change was for Apple to utilize the Intel processors for its computers. It seems like every software program company is feverishly working to get their products working with Apple's new computers. What I would like to share, though, is what is up to date and loaded on my happy new "bad boy", is working wonderfully fine. I like the new Logic Pro program (was a Logic user when it was still owned by emagic and available for PC's); the MOTU 2408 MK3 is dependably working with its buffer setting set to 128; LOVE the sound and functionality of my new RealGuitar 2L by Music Lab - it works great with the Logic Pro program; and, so far, the updated version of Kontakt 2.2 is proving to be working quite well within my new computer set-up (which, unfortunately, doesn't seem to be true for other Kontakt 2.2 users).

Heck! I am still able to use my aging Dell 420 Precision Workstation as, basically, a storage house of my currently owned sound libraries thanks to Music Lab's MidiOverLan CP3 program!! This means I am still able to use my favorite GPO and JABB programs despite not being able to load them on my new Mac Pro. YEA!! )(~

It is interesting to witness the seemingly profound change Apple has caused the computer software industry when it decided to go Intel. So far, though, the change has been for the positive. What is working is working well. At least this is true for me. I am happy that I made this more than financially modest "investment".

Mr. Gary. In my mind, you need not make any apologies for any delays in getting your revised products to the public. Your company is dependant on Native Instruments to make their revisions to the Kontakt program. Native Instruments is not alone in playing catch-up to the new Intel-based Apple computers. What I admire about you and your company is that you are able to engage in an open dialogue with the customers with regards to these delays. You make yourself available to discuss this situation and even seek solutions. Sadly, other software companies are not so open.

You have fine products. You seem to care about the people who use your products. You provide services way beyond the usual selling of merchandise. (The free online Orchestration Course, this supportive bulletin board community and the yearly Christmas CD come to mind.) You can count me as another loyal customer.

When GPO and JABB are available for the new Apple computers, I'll gladly purchase them for my new Mac Pro. When GPOA is available, you bet I will be purchasing this baby! *() I have no problems waiting. Your willingness to discuss the delays does help with the waiting. Thank you for being so open and caring to your customers, Mr. Gary.

Warm regards,

Ted

[ZareOne]

About developing a custom Sample Player engine... I don't think it's so easy. I am a programmer too (mainly web oriented), and even if I have no experience with DSP programming, I know it's VERY difficult. It's not only about reproducing sampled data. That's only the first step. Think about realtime performance, engine optimization, bug fixes (there are millions of possible hard/software setup combinations which can interfere with the program functionality). Think about usability too. A well designed GUI is not a simple thing to develop. Think about having to maintain the software in several OSes and plugin formats AU/RTA/VST/TDM, Windows/Mac (including Universal Binary). All this requires a lot of time/effort, and a big developer team.

Kontakt 2, in its actual state, hasn't been concieved in a year. It's an evolving software that started long time ago and has been improved over time. For example, let's have a look at Steinberg. They have a big developer team, and ... in my opinion, Halion is not a good sampler.

The KSP engine in Kontakt 2 is VERY powerful, and it can only get better.

Just my 0,02 €.

[C J Pro]

I am a programmer too (mainly web oriented), and even if I have no experience with DSP programming, I know it's VERY difficult.

Web programming isn't actually programming. It is scripting. The styles and methods in scripting are vastly different than regular programming langauges. Plus, you would be amazed at the number of libraries available for C++.


It's not only about reproducing sampled data. That's only the first step.

That's actually the easy portion of it.


Think about realtime performance, engine optimization, bug fixes (there are millions of possible hard/software setup combinations which can interfere with the program functionality).

This tends to develop over time. As the program spreads, users will start pointing out problems and all it takes is just a little bit of adjustment of the code to compensate.


Think about usability too. A well designed GUI is not a simple thing to develop.

GUI is one of the easiest and toughest things to create. It takes just a little bit of code but a lot of experimentation. This, along with the processing of the sounds, would be the toughest portion.


Think about having to maintain the software in several OSes and plugin formats AU/RTA/VST/TDM, Windows/Mac (including Universal Binary). All this requires a lot of time/effort, and a big developer team.

Cross-platform programming is getting even easier. For example, wx-widgets could be used for the GUI. One could also develop custom classes to compensate between systems (such as interfacing with MIDI and Audio devices). The plugin formats is something I would have to learn, but I imagine it wouldn't take that much work.


Kontakt 2, in its actual state, hasn't been concieved in a year. It's an evolving software that started long time ago and has been improved over time. For example, let's have a look at Steinberg. They have a big developer team, and ... in my opinion, Halion is not a good sampler.

The KSP engine in Kontakt 2 is VERY powerful, and it can only get better.

Just my 0,02 €.

A custom sampler would also evolve. Infact, it would allow for Garritan Libraries to evolve at its own pace and release products quicker as it doesn't have to wait for a larger company to release the host software.

[nikolas]

Either way I doubt that this is the time for developing a new player.

Maybe wait for NI for the upcoming products (GPOA, GOS2, etc) and then deal with the player, for the...next generation. Either way in a couple of years Vista will make everything upside down (talking about 2 years, so that Vista cna be the default OS for PCs... until then... I'm not getting near Vista at all!). This is the big major thing to watch for PCs in the "near" future. And now seems to be the date to deal with it. (About Vista it's not only the compatibility issues I'm talking about but the new features and capabilities, like for example the extra RAM. GPO in total is around 3-4 Gb, right? One can load up absolutely everything in his RAM. Now if you had 64 Gb of RAM, wouldn't it be cool to be able to load up a full library like EWQL Platinum all in a computer? I know that Garritan libraries are not about huge articulations and different things etc... but maybe 64-bit 192 Khz samples could means something with... 10 velocity layers... (apart from everything else...). Just a glimpse to the future I guess... :-/ Just some extra thoughts as well. :)

[ZareOne]

Web programming isn't actually programming. It is scripting.
I'm not talking about HTML, but PHP5 (object oriented) and Java. You can't imagine how may thousands of lines of code are behind a full featured website, including classes, methods, functions, abstraction layers, file manipulation... Also I have some (not much) knowledge of C++.




GUI is one of the easiest and toughest things to create. It takes just a little bit of code but a lot of experimentation. This, along with the processing of the sounds, would be the toughest portion.

Here I wasn't refering to GUI code itself (which is way easier than DSP code) but GUI desing itself. I'm talking of accesibility, ease of use and so.

Of course Gary could implement his own player, but it could take over 2 years of hard work to have it working flawlesly (Have Murphy's law in mind). I think Gary should release his products in K2 player format, and then, make a viability study to deciede wether it's profitable to take that step or not.

Again, just my 0.02€

[C J Pro]

I'm not talking about HTML, but PHP5 (object oriented) and Java. You can't imagine how may thousands of lines of code are behind a full featured website, including classes, methods, functions, abstraction layers, file manipulation... Also I have some (not much) knowledge of C++.


PHP5 is still a scripting language that I utilize alot. Unfortunately, there aren't many built in libraries for it and things typically have to be developed from scratch. C++ has a large amount of support and hundreds of libraries. It is this that makes the source code shorter for the programmer.

Also, I used to do programming in QBasic. To be precise, I would program GUIs using it. Unfortunately, there's a 640K max to the amount of RAM that can be used. DOS would use the first 64-128K of that RAM. I needed about 480K of RAM or more for storing scripts to run within the interface. That left me with very little left to work with. This forced me to develop programs in as little code as possible and to make it run quickly too. Frankly, this habit hasn't left me. My code is very unorganized, but I pull programs off at 1/10 to 1/50 the size of the professional programmer's without sacrificing security, speed, or memory.


Here I wasn't refering to GUI code itself (which is way easier than DSP code) but GUI desing itself. I'm talking of accesibility, ease of use and so.

The GUI is still tricky. The GUI would be the portion that takes the longest as you would have to get sample groups together and check to see what they have trouble with in your program to know how to fix the GUI and improve it.


Of course Gary could implement his own player, but it could take over 2 years of hard work to have it working flawlesly (Have Murphy's law in mind). I think Gary should release his products in K2 player format, and then, make a viability study to deciede wether it's profitable to take that step or not.

Again, just my 0.02€

Two years is a little bit of an overstatement. A team of 2-3 programmers could pull off a program like Kontakt in mere months. Following methods done in the open source community, it would then take another few months before almost all of the bugs are worked out. In all, it would take 6-10 months to start from scratch and get to the point that Kontakt 2 is at.

[KeithW]

It has been a difficult few months...
Does anyone have any ideas or solutions?

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Gary Garritan The fact that you are posting this is a great thing. People on this forum know that NI has had its issues this calendar year, and that is why your products are delayed. If you just keep us posted, I think we can be patient and wait until this all sorts out.

About ideas, how about, instead of a "group buy," a sliding discount scale for multiple-title customers. For example if a person bought 1 product, it would be at "list." If they bought 2, the second would be 5% off, etc., up until a reasonable discount. That way, if we wanted to buy, let's say, all of the products available today (GPO, JABB, Strad.) and tomorrow (Marching Band, Steinway Piano, GOS2, etc.) we could get a handsome discount.

Thanks for all you are doing. Maybe you should rename your company "Volksmusik"- great tools at a reasonable price.

Keith Walls

[KeithW]

The entire industry of computer based audio, video, graphics and publishing has had to endure the past year, in which everybody had to port their products to the new Mac Intel platform. Adobe is still three or four months away from releasing Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and the Flash and Shockwave tools for Mac Intel. There's a huge pent-up demand and it affects everybody.
And it gets worse... Vista x86 and Vista x64. The music industry has just now sorted out the MacIntel issues and Vista comes along. I've been running both x86 and x64 versions since Beta 2, and folks, the drivers (for the most part) just aren't released yet. Whether you're talking music-related hardware (USB or Firewire-based I/O audio interfaces, etc.) or non-music related (graphics tablets, graphics cards, etc.) Most everybody is promising their drivers by the time the retail Vista ships at the end of January, so we'll just have to see.

I've been involved with the PC industry since the very beginning, and progress comes along in fits and starts. Every once in a while a "fundamental" change comes along (e.g. Mac OS X, Windows XP, MacIntel, Vista) and the industry and their customers just have to adapt. It's the price we pay for progress. Soon we'll have dual-quad-core Xeon processor-based machines with 32GB of RAM on our desktops, and your DAW of tomorrow will look significantly different than the ones of today.

Keith Walls

[Slandrom]

Take the time you need Gary. We know that what will come out finally is great!

Björn

Buying NI was a good idea :)

[wst3ae]

The GUI is still tricky. The GUI would be the portion that takes the longest as you would have to get sample groups together and check to see what they have trouble with in your program to know how to fix the GUI and improve it.
The GUI is by far and away the simplest part of such a project!!! The code that does the actual work is very complex, you can not just make a handful of library calls, well, actually, that's exactly what you do, but you have to write the library first.

There are number of aspects of any audio engine that make it very difficult indeed to write for a "modern" OS such as Windows. Managing timing is ridiculously complex (by which I mean that an OS that has been used for such purposes for so long ought to offer such a service), and that's just the start!!!


Two years is a little bit of an overstatement. A team of 2-3 programmers could pull off a program like Kontakt in mere months. Following methods done in the open source community, it would then take another few months before almost all of the bugs are worked out. In all, it would take 6-10 months to start from scratch and get to the point that Kontakt 2 is at.
I can not tell if you are serious or just kidding, but if you know the team that can build an application as mature and capable as Kontact2 in 10 months they you are an idiot!!! Stop typing messages and start typing code, 12 months from now you will never have to work again if that's the path you choose.

Even in the open source community ot tool years for tools like Ardour to get to the point where they were usable, and they are still ready for prime time in only the most controlled settings.

FWIW, I was involved in such a project years ago, and I know all too well the complexity behind a sample player. If you are really interested in building one there are numerous texts that will get you started. Let me know if you'd like a list.

Bill

PS- just took a quick look, and there is TONS of reference code available on the web in addition to all the code on SourceForge, which is problematic unless you are planning on releasing your project as open source. The SDK's for DirectX, ASIO, and VST are also great references. Needless to say, none of the SDKs include any clever enhancements<G>!

[mixolydian]

Didn't Gary engaged a programmer some month ago? Or I was dreaming about it. :p

[LFO]

Easy on CJ, wst3ae. :|:

CJ is coming from an optimistic angle that is natural due to his lack of experience, hardly a crime. :) I can clearly remember thinking in the same terms when I began programming in 1979. I learned quickly how wrong I was!

CJ, here is a basic rule of programming you should always use. Once you have a fair estimate of how long it will take to write a program triple that number and you should end up with what it will actually take. There is a reason why so many companies are licensing NI products to support their libraries. They all are fully aware of what a nightmare it would be to try and finance, build, support and update one themselves.


Gary, I think you are taking the right path. Yes, you are dependant on another company for your products, however the risk associated with building your own player is too high. It is a new division that would require a significant amount of capital and headcount. I think if you keep up the high amount of communication you currently offer you will be able to manage delays much better than most companies (including NI). Maybe you should have a quarterly newsletter to update all Garritan product users. (?) You are not in the best case scenario today, but it could be alot worse.

-LFO

[C J Pro]

Actually, the triple rule doesn't work for me. Here is how one can calculate how long it will take me to make a program:


Add up the number of source files needed.
Multiply that by 2,000. This is the number of seconds needed.
Divide by 60 to get minutes.
Multiply by 500 (the number of times I'll recompile a single function).
Multiply by 73 (number of times I'll restart from the beginning).
If images or a GUI is involved, multiply by 50.
Realize you have done all this work and you still haven't even reached debugging and the scheduling? Well, cross it out and replace it by the word "infinite"

[wst3ae]

my favorite rule of thumb is to double my initial estimate until even I think it is silly, and then double it one more time.

The frightening thing is, that formula has worked a couple of times!!!

And I hope my previous post didn't come off as harsh... I just re-read it and I didn't see it that way, but then there are the vagaries of any communication that is not face to face (and even then sometimes<G>!)

Anyway, it wasn't meant to be mean, but it might have been a bit terse...
Bill

[Wheat Williams]

Is there any way that the Garritan users could lobby the Native Instruments company to attach a higher priority to features and interoperability with the Garritan libraries, and Garritan's research and development in general?

I would imagine that the Finale company (MakeMusic) and Finale users would also factor into this. Native Instruments must make a significant amount of income from Finale sales, what with the Kontakt Player being bundled with every copy of the full version of Finale.

Then there's Sibelius. Similar story.

One truly unique thing about this forum versus those of other software development firms is that Garritan is a single person and he reads all the posts here, and makes frequent posts himself.

Who makes the executive decisions at Native Instruments, and is there any way to communicate with him or her?

[nikolas]

One truly unique thing about this forum versus those of other software development firms is that Garritan is a single person and he reads all the posts here, and makes frequent posts himself.
That's simply not true!

Garritan was an inventor back in the late 90s who invented a super intelligent bot! Then he actually vanished in orcas islands... Only he left his bot and other bots like the prototype to do all the hard work. There is no Gary! All of the posts you read are 10s of bots who have been programmed to act like Gary himself, by himself.

Please do not ask me how I know, I could never reveal my sources... :D

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

And now the real reply: Indeed I think that this is something unique with Garritan which makes him much more appealing (for me at least). Further more the fact that I know he's listening when I rant, or complain about something, is good enough for me to know that his next products are going to be closer to my needs. Garritan is one of the little companies that actualyl listen to the audiences and know how to filter the good from the bad advice and the need to work and the need to "follow the crowd"! On the opposite end (for example), you get Steinberg who seems to be sleeping or being locked and once a year they get out their hybernation, or locked bedrooms, release a new Cubase, with bugs, and things that nobody ever thought would want (or even worst take out Direct X support... just an example...) and go back to sleep. (Rant over as well as semi-funny post) :)

[C J Pro]

Is there any way that the Garritan users could lobby the Native Instruments company to attach a higher priority to features and interoperability with the Garritan libraries, and Garritan's research and development in general?

Wave a couple million dollars infront of their faces?

[fred Holmes]

I can't even code in Visual basic - so take that into consideration when reading this.

Gary, the long and the short of it is - I'll wait! You're stuff is so good that while I'm as itchy as anyone else for all the new stuff - I'd rather wait till it's ready to go. And yes, I own Kontakt and waited for K2 as we all did.

That said - here are some general comments.
What you do best (better than anyone else IMHO) is to create playable instruments/orchestras - don't sideline yourself with player development, I think it's a black hole.

I asume many of your users already have Kontakt 2 standalone - might it be possible to release your stuff with appropriate scripts for those K2 users while you wait for K2 player. NOt everyone happy - but at least some income for you.

I want you to stay in business and make great $$ so you are encouraged to continually expand your instruments/technology. I'm not headed for any competing libraries and I'll bet that others are as comitted to your products.

All my best wishes,
Fred

[marce]

Hi. Interesting reading and posts.
I agree about that make your own sample player can be a headache more than a solution. Also, stick to Kontakt would be great for users that hates learning curves.
But in case you consider some other sample player engine, i would like to see it in some one developed by Rene Ceballos. A "player" version of his "Dimension Pro" or tweaked "SFZ+" would be great. If i correctly remember, there exist a mini GPO version for this sampler/synth. He is working for cakewalk now, that can make him not an option, i dont know.

[noldar12]

To me as well, the operative word is patience. As another post mentioned, Gary does not run a large company. One of the most common business mistakes that small companies make is to spread themselves too thin, attempting to incorporate things that fall outside their core strengths.

Gary does a wonderful job with sound libraries. To me, it seems best that he continues to focus on that core strength, rather than tackle the nightmare of developing his own player, however wonderful the concept idea is. Even if Gary did design a good player, many resources would be required to keep it updated. If said player proved to be non-optimal, sales of core products would probably decline long-term.

Thus, developing a new player would most likely represent a major change to, and would therefore signficantly impact, his current business model (this is my speculation of course:D ). Such a change could not be undertaken lightly.

Jim

[claysf]

Gary-

Thanks for keeping us posted. I bought my new MacIntel notebook in full knowledge that I'd have to wait for NI and GPO to catch up. Call me cynical, but I never expected on-time delivery. That said, I come to this forum several times a week with bated breath to see if the releases are ready.

Delayed gratification can be sweet! Unlikely, in my case, that extended delay will result
in loss of interest.

Regards,
Clay

[Wheat Williams]

What about Windows Vista?

After January 30, 2007, home computer users that purchase PCs will have no choice but to purchase a new computer with Windows Vista pre-installed. Windows XP will be withdrawn from the market.

Is Windows Vista going to break existing digital audio and music applications? How about drivers for hardware (audio interfaces, mixers, keyboards, etc.)?

Are working musicians going to hold onto their older computers and wait a year or two before buying a new Windows Vista system, in order to wait until the applications they need are rewritten and released in Vista-compatible versions?

Or is the change from XP to Vista not that big of a deal, compatibility-wise?

[Jeff Turner]

Is there any way that the Garritan users could lobby the Native Instruments company to attach a higher priority to features and interoperability with the Garritan libraries, and Garritan's research and development in general?

I would imagine that the Finale company (MakeMusic) and Finale users would also factor into this. Native Instruments must make a significant amount of income from Finale sales, what with the Kontakt Player being bundled with every copy of the full version of Finale.


I think this has already happpened to some extent. Finale 2007 was released this past July, and it included the new Kontakt 2 player. Apparently Make Music had enough clout to get this included months before any other Kontakt 2 players came out.

Then the Strad came out with the new player. Same situation.

All this happened while NI was still working on the UB version. In the final analysis, this is all IBM's fault. If they could've make chips that ran faster and cooler, then Apple wouldn't have had to switch processors which is a big part of NI's delay.

Jeff

[LFO]

What about Windows Vista?

After January 30, 2007, home computer users that purchase PCs will have no choice but to purchase a new computer with Windows Vista pre-installed. Windows XP will be withdrawn from the market.

Is Windows Vista going to break existing digital audio and music applications? How about drivers for hardware (audio interfaces, mixers, keyboards, etc.)?

Are working musicians going to hold onto their older computers and wait a year or two before buying a new Windows Vista system, in order to wait until the applications they need are rewritten and released in Vista-compatible versions?

Or is the change from XP to Vista not that big of a deal, compatibility-wise?

Hey Wheat,
Vista is going to be disruptive, for good or evil. Since I've been dealing with Windows since Windows SAE I've learned to never, ever go with a 1.0 version of Windows. So, if you are up and running fine than don't fix what ain't broke!

Vista is going to require new (and certified) drivers and software updates for all hardware and many programs. This is what becomes disruptive. I think we are all going to find ourselves in a position of being forced to `upgrade' to Vista at some point, you will have to manage when that point occurs. Personally, I am in danger of losing support for my Aardvark Q10 (no 64 bit or Vista drivers because they went out of business), Steinberg MIDEX8 (Steinberg at this point will not commit to writing drivers. Grrrr....) and Steinberg Houston (Steinberg dropping the ball *again*). So at some point I'll have to wave goodbye to my (very reliable) XP system and take the plunge. It is going to cost me $$, but I know that is the nature of the beast and so I will deal with the change as best as I can over time. I will also keep my XP setup as long as I can just because....it ain't broke so I ain't gonna fix it. ;)

-LFO

[Wheat Williams]

Hey Wheat,
Vista is going to be disruptive, for good or evil.

Vista is going to require new (and certified) drivers and software updates for all hardware and many programs. Note to cynical Windows users: For the past year some of you have been bashing the Mac platform by making fun of the whole issue of us having to wait for updates compatible with Mac Intel/Universal Binary, and having to hold off buying new computers until the updates were in place.

Now the shoe is on the other foot.

We could enter into a new year of cynical Mac users bashing Windows because of the whole issue of having to wait for a year for updates and hardware drivers compatible with Vista, and Windows users putting off buying a new computer.

Guys, it just isn't worth it. Innovation and forward progress always creates these kinds of issues, on all platforms, at certain intervals.

The best advice is not to run out and purchase the brand-new platform. Stick with what works for you, and get used to being a year behind the cutting edge, for the sake of compatibility. It's easy for us. Just reign in your checkbook and don't spend your money so freely.

It's harder for Gary and other software and hardware developers who see dramatic drops in their cash flow because of cycles where users are putting off purchasing upgrades and new products due to compatibility issues.

[Hannes_F]

In my opinion the development of an own player could bring an essential risk to the whole Garritan enterprise. Things are planned quickly but when details jump in, they can sum up. I would concentrate on the core competence and wait for NI.

Meanwhile we can use our time to get even more out of the products we already have. There is still much space in front of us.


Hannes

[wst3ae]

In my opinion the development of an own player could bring an essential risk to the whole Garritan enterprise. Things are planned quickly but when details jump in, they can sum up. I would concentrate on the core competence and wait for NI.

Both approaches have risks!

If you depend on another developer, and that developer decides for whatever reason to block access then you are in trouble.

If you develop your own player then you have to deal with all of the costs and hassles associated with large scale software development, and that's not trivial.

There is a third option, which I think has been mentioned previously, and that is to support multiple platforms. That is not without it's own downside - it is much more work, and it is unlikely that any two platforms will have identical features, so one library will likely outperform, or at least differently perform the other.

If I ruled the world (and I don't), I'd probably take a good long look at developing my own platform, but I'd do it with a couple of caveats:

1) it would have to become a core competency! For example, it would have to deliver the same quality, support, and bang-for-the-buck that as my sound libraries if I were Gary. Thus I would have to plan for the expansion of the team to support development and customers... and I'd probably want to fund that growth from existing sales.

2) I would only undertake such a venture if I thought that I could make the player attractive to other library developers as well. I'd want to OEM it to as many folks as possible! The entire music production marketplace is a niche to start with, economy of scale is nearly a dream<G>!


Meanwhile we can use our time to get even more out of the products we already have. There is still much space in front of us.

Now there you go injecting a little common sense into a perfectly amusing thread!!! You are quite correct, of course, very few folks have outgrown GPO and JABB... at least for now.

Bill

[Craig Reeves]

Take as much time as y'all need. I'd rather see a good product come late than a crappy one that comes early.

[fastlane]

As I recall a company cannot just hire and terminate employees as needed in Germany or France. I think it's more like an adoption.

By the way, I sprayed my Strad DVD with Raid so I'm fine.

You should have seen those little critters scurry off. :wow:

Phil

[Garritan]

Thanks all for your comments.

There is a lot to consider as we move forward into the new year.

I just posted an update on the updates. I'll copy it here:


Here's an Update on the Update:

Stradivari 2.0 MacIntel and Fixed version
The MacIntel boxed version of the Strad 2.0 is at the manufacturer. This version reputedly fixes the initial Kontakt 2 Player bugs.I hope to have the new discs in the next week to 10 days. Very soon there will be a free download to registered Stradivari 2.0 users. This update will also have MacIntel compatibiliy. To update, simply go to the NI site www.native-instruments.com (http://www.native-instruments.com/) and log-in and go the the update page.

The update can also be automatically downloaded using the NI Service Center Update Manager. After activation (or if already activated) you can access Update Manager from the Main Menu button or by clicking the Info button in your Kontakt 2 Player browser. Those who need a new disc can email us with your name and address and we'll mail one out to you.
JABB & GPO - Kontakt 2 Version & MacIntel
Now that we have the final working version of Kontakt 2 Player with the necessary fixes, we can finalize the port. It should not take too long as the lion's share of the work is already done. Then it goes to Native Instruments. Because of the unexpected delays with the Player this has pushed back their encoding schedule. There is now a large backlog of existing and new third-party libraries as well as NI's own products that need encoding and there limited staff at NI to do this.

So I am told it will probably take a month or longer just to encode and make it available to users. We will need to do some testing and then they will be released to our users. The new Kontakt 2 (with Universal Binary) will be a free downloadable update to existing GPO and JABB and Stradivari 2.0 users.
Marching Band, Cello and General MIDI
Marching Band and Gofriller Cello are now being finalized and tested and are soon will be ready to go the Native Instruments. Again there is a backlog with NI to encode so we will have to wait for them to encode and create the DVD master (which may take a month or more). So it doesn't look like we'll have these new libraries by the holidays.
Things are progressing, but at a much slower rate than I had ever anticipated.

Thanks everyone for your patience. Let me know if you have any questions.

Gary Garritan