Idea for GOS2/GPOA (Ksw. for each string of an instrument)

[musicpete]

Hello there!

Yesterday, while driving home and spending some time (actually lots of time) in the inevitable traffic jam I came up with a brilliant idea. Please bear with me, if this has been suggested:

I would love to have string sections and solo insturments where you can switch between the same note to be played on every available string. Example:

Violins 1 Keyswitches:
C0 = G-string
C#= D-string
D0 = A-string
D#0= E-string

This would enable the composer to finally implement color considerations into his "performance"!

Background babble: I always loved how wonderfully expressive real recorded Violin passages could sound (For example Piazollas "Tanzago", "Tango Ballet" and others) when the players skilfully switch the strings during their performance. I NEVER heard something like that in orchestral mockups!

Maybe the ability to switch between strings could help in adding yet more depth, heart and emotion to the performance?

What do you think about this idea?

[Skysaw]

Thanks for bringing this up again. There was once a little discussion on this on page 8 of this thread: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39032&page=8

It was repeated in slightly more depth elsewhere, but I couldn't find it. One thing some of us came up with is that the sample set could probably be kept to a minimum in size by simply supplying: (using violin as example)

1. Sul-G samples from D4 to about C5 (No need to sample for notes only available on G string anyway)
2. Sul-D samples from A4 to about C6

Using just these extra notes, we could keyswitch between G string, D string, and "normal mode." Normal mode would always give you the highest available string for the chosen note.


I don't recall ever having seen anything marked "Sul-A," as the timbre of the two top strings is much much more similar than any two other strings. It *could* be included, but in the interest of keeping things smaller, I don't think it would be needed.

[boten]

Yes, that idea is already in use in Real Guitar, there is an Auto Fret mode which will automatically play the note on the string in the position you're currently at, or manual mode in which you can set the fret position (automation by cc controller) and play the note in any possible string. It is amazing how realistic this sounds vs the regular guitar samples always playing at position 1. I also think that this should be implemented for the future violins.

[Hannes_F]

I don't recall ever having seen anything marked "Sul-A," as the timbre of the two top strings is much much more similar than any two other strings. It *could* be included, but in the interest of keeping things smaller, I don't think it would be needed.

I slightly disagree here since the difference between high A sting and low E string is very big and important. The E string is from steel and the A from gut or nylon, and the difference is very frequently used to point out the character of the passage.

The thing is that it is so essential that players will use intuitively what fits into the mood, and so self-evident that it often is not mentioned in the score.

+1 for the initial issue ...

BUT

there is also the cc#24 for brightness, and I use it for this purpose.


Hannes

[Nickie Fønshauge]

I have to agree with Hannes. On a cello, that usually plays with metal-only strings, there is a marked and much used difference in timbre between the two top strings A & D. On a violin with metal E and gut A string, the difference would be even greater.

[Garritan]

musicpete,

Thanks for posting the suggestion. We must be on the same wavelength.

Sul altra corda switching is already implemented in GOS2 :)

Gary

[Craig Reeves]

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

[JPGarbarini]

Pray tell when we'll have some demos of GOS2 Gary?

hehe :)

[musicpete]

Look at me: I'm useful! )(~

Wow, this sounds exciting! Now I really hope this will help giving string lines even more heart and emotion.

Mind if I include this in the GPOA rumor thread?

[GDG]

musicpete,

Thanks for posting the suggestion. We must be on the same wavelength.

Sul altra corda switching is already implemented in GOS2 :)

Gary

How about violin subharmonics, e.g., playing an octave below low G on a normally-tuned violin?

See http://homepages.nyu.edu/~mk4/subharmonics.html

Enjoy,

Grant

[Nickie Fønshauge]

How about violin subharmonics, e.g., playing an octave below low G on a normally-tuned violin?

See http://homepages.nyu.edu/~mk4/subharmonics.html

Enjoy,

Grant
And why not include the sound of little goblins and flying saucers while we are at it. %-

[jmc]

I hope there's an effective way to go from jete to spicatto, to staccato, to accented, to marcato, to... um, i'm not sure what's after that... molto scrape violento...? Lots of articulability-rificness... is what I'm hoping for. Multiple strings are good too.

[GDG]

And why not include the sound of little goblins and flying saucers while we are at it. %-

Only if it is released before Halloween ;)

[karvasika]

I agree it's important to have possibilities in libraries, but I also would like to see a library, where you don't have to spend all the time on programming it, but it would make stuff automatically.

Imagine: you start your notation program with an empty orchestra score. You write some single melody for your 1st violins (only one voice, nothing special) and add some midi modulation data to tell the nyances you want. Then you just send 1st violins to the group 1 on your GPOA player.

This is where GPOA takes the lead.

Then you load "Garritan's full 1st violins section"-preset to your GPOA player, group 1. This preset loads 16 separate 1st violins to the player, each with their own characteristics. Then you just toggle humanize on for the group and it's instruments. GPOA automatically humanizes the single midi stream coming from the notation program to suit each instrument and makes it sound different on each one. Now you just twist a few more knobs from the GPOA to make it sound like you.

Voila. You now have a score with few notes written on 1 voice, with simple modulation data for velocity levels and GPOA makes it sound like 16 separate players. Imagine what you can create with a product like this. And this will take you 2-5 minutes. All you who have made something like this with Cubase by recording modulation data, duplicating it and altering each midi channel bla bla, you know how much time it can take.

Now this is what would be the coolest product on earth. No more frustrating and difficult programming on the notation program side (at least it wouldn't be necessary). Just pure creative composing and GPOA would take care of your sounds. Gary, I will send you a box of chocolate if you make this happen!

[Garritan]

Just pure creative composing and GPOA would take care of your sounds. Gary, I will send you a box of chocolate if you make this happen!mmmmmm............chocolate :heart: Only one box? :p
This is something we are working on :)

[Hannes_F]

I agree it's important to have possibilities in libraries, but I also would like to see a library, where you don't have to spend all the time on programming it, but it would make stuff automatically.

Imagine: you start your notation program with an empty orchestra score. You write some single melody for your 1st violins (only one voice, nothing special) and add some midi modulation data to tell the nyances you want. Then you just send 1st violins to the group 1 on your GPOA player.

This is where GPOA takes the lead.

Then you load "Garritan's full 1st violins section"-preset to your GPOA player, group 1. This preset loads 16 separate 1st violins to the player, each with their own characteristics. Then you just toggle humanize on for the group and it's instruments. GPOA automatically humanizes the single midi stream coming from the notation program to suit each instrument and makes it sound different on each one. Now you just twist a few more knobs from the GPOA to make it sound like you.

Voila. You now have a score with few notes written on 1 voice, with simple modulation data for velocity levels and GPOA makes it sound like 16 separate players. Imagine what you can create with a product like this. And this will take you 2-5 minutes. All you who have made something like this with Cubase by recording modulation data, duplicating it and altering each midi channel bla bla, you know how much time it can take.

Now this is what would be the coolest product on earth. No more frustrating and difficult programming on the notation program side (at least it wouldn't be necessary). Just pure creative composing and GPOA would take care of your sounds. Gary, I will send you a box of chocolate if you make this happen!

This will never work until the user does not know how string instruments are played and how string players feel and think. This is a fundamental transition - use the keyboard but forget about the piano and you will get a new relationship to notes and sounds.

It seems that I can make more realistic string sounds with GPO within seconds using nothing more than notation - at least more realistic as many others, even with multi-thousand $ libraries, tons of K2 scripts and lots of MIDI tweaking. Why?

EDIT: This sounds big-headed, sorry, which is not my intention. EDIT END

Actually it is not as hard as it seems - there are just some easy guidelines and I am thinking of making a tutorial of it. But as easy as it is it will be very hard to program a script or library that can substitute the own thinking - unless the script is capable of reading a musical phrase in advance before beginning with the first note.

For me the job of a composer should include this knowledge since it is located very deep down at the roots of musicality (my 2c). Everybody that understands this will write differently. Do you really want this knowledge to be buried in a script or library?

That being said I am looking forward to GPOA as well.

Hannes

[Hannes_F]

I hope there's an effective way to go from jete to spicatto, to staccato, to accented, to marcato

PS.: This can all be done with just the Sus-Short AG patch and proper control of velocity and modwheel. I have a trick to even get ponticello.

Actually I am not convinced that tons of switched layers are the way. I mean, a violin player has one violin and one bow and will not change the set just to do some shorter notes with more attack in-between. Imagine - a violin player with one bow for spicatto, one for staccato ... better one good bow that does it all, and learn how to handle it.


Hannes

[joaz]

It seems that I can make more realistic string sounds with GPO within seconds using nothing more than notation - at least more realistic as many others with multi-thousand $ libraries, tons of K2 scripts and lots of MIDI tweaking. Why?

Actually it is not as hard as it seems - there are just some easy guidelines and I am thinking of making a tutorial of it.

Please do it Hannes, I am sure many here would benefit from any tips and tricks to getting a good String section sound.

You have ably demonstrated, that it is possible to achieve a good string sound from GPO. Anything that adds to our knowledge is welcome.

regards Joe

[karvasika]

Hannes, I know what you mean.

My main needs are in making big groups of instruments with one line of notes. I can't say what would be the best thing for the humanizing part so that it wouldn't take away possibilities from the composer, but I really want the possibility to build big instrument groups easily without programming and without any tricks in the notation program side. The ensemble building should be done in the player side with the score being as simple as possible in the notation side. Ie. I don't want to duplicate one melody 16 times to make 16 violins play it.