Film Orchestration/Midi

[Gulliver]

Dis wrote:
And what are these \"non-linear expression envelopes\" and how did you use them? And which layers did you overlap?

In this case what I meant by non-linear is a sine or a cosine wave (i have these cakewalk .cal scripts that do this) but you could think of it as any type of envelope aside from the usual linear up/down ramp, which is not very natural. You could really get involved with this whole envelope business and create elaborate sets for all different instrument sections. You could study the way a violin section bows and how that effects the relative volume and intensity of the passage being played. I also deliberately use envelopes sometimes to control the nature of the samples themselves, as in the case of a choir sample that peaks too quickly, etc..

Regards,
Faisal.

[KingIdiot]

Mixing envelopes is another \"tweaker\" effect. I\'ld love to see an NFX effect that allows for more LFO controls, and \"special effects\" all controlled with MIDI controllers. For orchestrations it could help expressiveness. Even bettter would be a special NFX version of this with multiple inputs into the effect from a single midi channel/instrument. Doing something like this could aallow for really expressive vibrato on strings doing more than one line. And keeping it fairly realistic.

Another good trick with envelopes, is to have slightly different ones for things like choirs. Something like different ones on male and female, and different ones on higher registers and lower registers.

[Gulliver]

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/gullvr (\"http://briefcase.yahoo.com/gullvr\")

I mentioned in another thread I would post a topic concerning Orchestration (or as in this case specifically for Film) to hopefully initiate discussion on the subject. There are a number of experienced and professional hands that lurk on this forum so I would like very much to get them to participate. http://209.15.164.171/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

To start it off, I uploaded a number of short mp3 tracks to my Yahoo briefcase. I will list them off:

Mask of Zorro - Love Theme (James Horner)
-----------
I put this together because it is typical of the type of \'lush\' orchestration used in modern Hollywood productions. It\'s not particularly innovative or musically interesting but it works all the time.
Big string section, Horns and Trombones providing a warm backdrop, on higher-registers the Flutes and Woodwinds kick-in to double the violins, the Harp (ala John Barry) sometimes plays a part. Other common doublings are Horns and Violas, Cellos (arco) on higher-register in unison with the violins & violas.

Giga instrumentation for the \'Zorro\' piece:
Strings - Miroslav + Ultimate Strings
Brass - Miroslav Horns & Trombones
Woodwinds - AO Flutes
Misc percussion - AO

=========

Predator

Ok, I gotta admit that I am fond of this score, since the mid-80\'s it has defined what passes off today as film scoring for Action & Sci-fi films. It\'s also great for referencing orchestration if you\'re looking to create that type of hard-edge, muscular sound. The piano is used almost strictly as a percussive tool (elbow crashes, marcato hits, etc) Harsh Trombone staccato blasts, blaring Trumpets (tonguing), Timpani galore (hits, rolls, rapid cresc/descrendos) and the ever present military snare drum.


Giga instrumentation for the \'Predator\' piece:

Strings - Ultimate Strings
Brass - Miroslav + AO
Piano - Steinway
Woowinds - Miroslav + AO
Percussion - AO + soundfonts

to be continued.....

[Gulliver]

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/gullvr (\"http://briefcase.yahoo.com/gullvr\")

Englishman - from \'The Englishman Who Went Up A Hill But Came Down a Mountain\' *phew*

I included this piece as an example of small ensemble work. Stephen Endelman\'s score has all the (cliche) elements of a comedy score (Pizzicatos,etc) but nevertheless it\'s tongue-in-cheek charming.

Giga instrumentation for \'Englishman\'
Strings - Miroslav (Solo) + Ultimate Strings (pizzicato)
Woodwind - AO
Percussion - AO

============

The Omen

An exercise in pure fun. I originally transcribed two different cues (The Altar, The Demise of Mrs. Baylock (sp?)) The original score obviously had elaborate choir but the two cues included here are mainly instrumental. Jerry Goldsmith originally used a mid-size orchestra and I tried to reflect that with my sample choices.

Giga instrumentation for \'The Omen\'
Strings - Miroslav
Brass - AO
Woodwinds - Miroslav + AO
Percussion - AO


Regards,
Faisal.

[Chris Beck]

Let me be the first to say: excellent work.

Particularly the \"Englishman\" piece - replace that one flute part with a live overdub and I\'d have been completely fooled.

Nice job

- Chris

[Synth2k]

Superb work, Gulliver. I bet if these were shown to some of my sample library non-believer friends they would likely become instant converts to the sample world. Forgive me if this has been covered before, but what is your choice of reverb, mixing/recording hardware for these snippets?

Ryan.

[JoE]

Hi all,
I\'ve been following the discussion with great interest and I\'m stunned by the quality of
the mp3 tracks posted in this thread and the previous one! Being a total beginner I\'d like
to ask the following question (although it may be a bit off topic). How - other than by
experimentation - can one learn to get realistic results out of string libraries?
Solo strings seem to be less of a problem than ensembles. Please forgive me for asking
such a banal question, but is there a general rule to play only single notes (rather than
thirds or full chords) when using, say, a violin ensemble sample? I have no idea whether there are any conventions in
composing for real orchestras saying that all the violins always play the same note.

Since this is obviously not a true \"Sample
Libraray\" question, can anybody please point
me to a more appropriate forum on this subject, if one exists?

Thanks,
Jens.

[Gulliver]

But what is your choice of reverb, mixing/recording hardware for these snippets?

Should\'ve mentioned this but all the tracks were done on a PII (Celeron) 450mhz with 128Mb of RAM, 9Gb HD, SBLive. Cakewalk was used for sequencing, SF Vegas for mixing, Soundforge for editing and encoding. On average I had 20 to 40 giga files loaded at any time (Ports 1-3 in Gigastudio) Reverb was done with Cakewalk\'s Audio FX3 SoundStage. EQ, Dynamics and everything else was done with TC Native.

Regards,
Faisal.

[Chadwick]

Gulliver,

Are you saying that you were running Cakewalk and Gigastudio on your PII simultaneously, and using Cakewalk for midi sequencing as well as audio stuff?

I ask this because the guys I bought my PC from told me to trun off the audio side of Logic because the machine kept giving me ASIO errors when I ran the Gigastudio.

Making Logic midi only helped, but of course I have no audio tracks or VST plugins.

I\'m very interested in Cakewalk if it puts so much less load on the CPU than Logic that you can run it with audio and plugins.

[Ewen]

I too use Cakewalk\'s Audio FX3 SoundStage.
It\'s my favorite reverb..

I find it most useful on percussion, it make the samples sound like they \"are played\" from the rear of the hall, even if you use \"close miked\" samples...

It\'s also good for brass and woodwinds.

[Gulliver]

Are you saying that you were running Cakewalk and Gigastudio on your PII simultaneously, and using Cakewalk for midi sequencing as well as audio stuff?

Yes, I have them running at the same time plus I record within cakewalk one track or group of tracks at a time. I have to do this because my system would otherwise crawl to a stop on the more complex performance setups. My usual routine is to divide the different instrument sections and record them separately. I then use SF Vegas for multitrack mixing and DX Effects (realtime) It\'s sorta like having your own mixing board with multiple i/o\'s, buses, etc.

Making Logic midi only helped, but of course I have no audio tracks or VST plugins.

You can treat Cakewalk like a multitrack audio mixer but personally I don\'t. In by itself cakewalk already eats into the CPU cycles Gigastudio needs. I leave all the Mixing after sequencing and initial recording. I\'m sure if you have a powerful system you could kill two birds with one stone but chances of a software crash, conflicts and other assorted headaches multiply ten folds when you start to mix Midi and Audio processing at the same time (atleast with PC\'s, Macs don\'t suffer so much)

Regards,
Faisal.

[Gulliver]

but is there a general rule to play only single notes (rather than thirds or full chords) when using, say, a violin ensemble sample?

I think aside from the normal division between 1st and 2nd violin a composer/orchestrator can mark a chord \"div\" to be played by a strings section. In the real world this naturally weakens the ability of a single group to play strong f or double fortismo passages but 90% of the time divisi is used in softer parts (p/pp) In the gigastudio/sampling world this rule can be thrown out the window. Rarely have I come across a 34-player violin section that actually sounds like 34 players, so assigning more then one note at a time will probably not ruin your the orchestral balance. If you play a lot with chords on string sections it might be best to use different original samples and divide your parts accordingly, this can in the long run sound more natural and convincing.
In general, maybe upto 90% of traditional orchestration rules apply in the sampling world. In fact, I argue they play even a bigger role because any mistakes you make in doubling (or lack of), balance and assignment will probably be easily detected, much more so than in a live recording.

Regards,
Faisal.

[mramosch]

Hello Faisal

I couldn\'t find your E-Mail address...
Is it a secret ?

If not then send it to me please...

All the best

Manfred

[Damian Smith]

I\'m quite surprised you\'re using an SB Live for your sound card. What do you think of it? I was thinking of upgrading it to a GSIF-compatible sound card. Do you think it\'s worth upgrading or just sticking with it?

[Gulliver]

I couldn\'t find your E-Mail address...
Is it a secret ?

Lol.. No, I just updated my profile, it should be there.

Re: SBLIVE
Do you think it\'s worth upgrading or just sticking with it?

This little card is fine if you\'re strictly working in digital domain, meaning you\'re not pluging in any external audio sources or outputs. Also you have to refrain from touching the onboard Soundfont engine and the Reverb/Chorus (both due to poor software drivers not the hardware) If you use this card in this manner the sound quality of your work will remain very consistant and high. Introduce anything I\'ve mentioned above and you will cry for a descent professional soundcard.


Regards,
Faisal.

[This message has been edited by Gulliver (edited 11-06-2000).]

[mramosch]

A perfect \'Piece of Art\' of strings playing \'divisi\' -

get yourself the score of Jean Sibelius
\'The Swan of Tuonela\' op.22 Nr.2

As Gulliver said: Mostly used in p/pp/ppp parts
of an orchestration.
Additionally he lets them all play \'con sordino\'.
Violins, violas and the Celli !!!

And most of all. Listen to it while reading the score...

Manfred

[This message has been edited by mramosch (edited 11-07-2000).]

[JoE]

Hi Gulliver and mramosch,

Thanks a lot for your replies regarding divisi strings! I appreciate it.

Best regards,
Jens.