Which notation program to choose....

[karvasika]

Hi!

I was a fan of Overture, but now after 1 year of waiting a mac version (or even if it's just around the corner), I'm starting to look for an alternative, because it takes ages for such a small company to develop any big changes and fix all the bugs.

So. What is THE notation program, that I can use with my GPO and other NI powered libraries that I might buy? I read, that Finale 2007 will work with any NI powered sample library. Are there other programs like this? I understood, that Sibelius only has a Sibelius-labeled GPO extension and won't work with the normal GPO libraries just like that?

Mr G. also mentioned in another thread, that GPO will be bundled with some other player in the near future. What might it be? I want a notation program, where I can compose to video and properly edit modulation data for a good expression (as necessary with GPO instruments).

Can you recommend me some other program than Overture? I know it has very good tools for manipulating midi data, but does some other program come even close?

I'm sorry if this discussion has been made several times before.. but no need for big comparisions, just some main points to help my decision. I haven't shut Overture out completely, but it's very close now. :n:

Thank you already for your answers!

[johnmarkpainter]

I don't even think there is a debate on this..."The" notation program is certainly Finale just like ProTools is "The" recording program.

BUT....that doesn't mean there aren't alternatives.

I Record and Notate in Nuendo (very similar to Cubase SX). The notation functions aren't nearly as good as Finale but programming/editing MIDI, composing to Picture and Mixing are far superior.

The Notation is good enough for my recording work and fast enough unless I need lots of separated parts.

When I need 'pretty' charts for an Orchestra, I just give MIDI tracks and a reference demo to a Finale copyist and for $200-$500 I get printed parts back.

It just depends upon your needs.

jmp

[johnmarkpainter]

One more reason I quit using Finale (after buying three upgrades) is that most of my arranging work is adding Orchestration to existing rhythm tracks.

I often get an MP3 reference via email. I import that into Nuendo, create a Tempo map and then sequence my arrangement to the Ref.

The only problem with that is that it doesn't really provide for Repeats, 1st and 2nd endings, Coda etc... You CAN edit the Ref audio to allow for that if needed but that could get confusing. I don't ususally write repeated material in my line of work so it isn't a problem for me.

jmp

[Skysaw]

I don't even think there is a debate on this..."The" notation program is certainly Finale just like ProTools is "The" recording program.
Certainly there is debate. Sibelius gets my vote.

[karvasika]

Skysaw, is it possible to use GPO and JABB with Sibelius without buying some extra packs?

[J. Whaley]

You can use GPO with Sibelius if you want. I don't have the sibelius with the Kontakt player (forget the version). There's a little application that comes with GPO called GPO studio. It basically functions to allow you to use GPO with a program that doesn't support Kontakt. So you shouldn't have a problem there. I've done it, although I don't do it often.

As for the programs. As far as I'm concerned Finale and Sibelius are the only real competitors. Learning curve is WAY easier on Sibelius. Ultimate flexiblity is greater on Finale. I've used Finale since version 2.1, back before they gave Finale '9x names to it. That was on Mac OS 7! We grew together for many many years. But there's certain strange things Finale has always done. You learn to accept them and then they become habits, but they never make sense. I did a lot of copy work with Finale and I set up huge orchestral scores. Finale never let me down as far as flexibility. But formatting was always really strange.

I upgraded with Finale until 2002. They were very slow to port their software to Mac OSX and I HAD to get a new computer. The new computers at the time wouldn't boot in OS9 anymore, so I changed to sibelius. They gave me a cheap cross grade - I think $149. I wasn't doing full orch stuff anymore so it didn't bother me that much. Formatting was a no-brainer. And the learning curve was a piece of cake. But Data Entry was always strange because I'd end up with notes everywhere from just playing around on the keyboard. But I've done hundred's of Rhythm charts, vocal charts, and small orchestra scores on Sibelius and I do think it's got some great features. But there are a few limitations, and there's some stuff I just never have figured out with large scores. So.....

Last week I switched back to Finale. (after 5 years) I upgraded to 2007 and in a strange way it felt really good to be back home. I'm not really even sure I know why I switched back, I just did. The formatting is much better, though still slightly strange. The rest of the oddness - I just remember it and even though it doesn't make sense, I know what to do so I don't ask questions - and I can do the complicated stuff I want - so I'm happy :)


That's my 2 ¢ - not worth much

J-

[dko22]

I'm not surprised you're getting fed up waiting for a Mac version of Overture having seen your pleas for info on the Ov. forum. It's about a year late already and i'm not convinced it will ever see the light of day. It's a shame that such a potentially great product doesn't look like seeing its full potential.

Based only on the demos, I would have to say Sibelius is far better for ease of use, despite a few quirks. Although Finale may ultimately have more control, most of us just want to get ideas onto "paper" as quickly as possible. The big drawback with Sib. is lack of proper VST support. However if you only want to use GPO then it's not such as issue. If you already have Cubase then it may be worth looking at the improved scoring in v.4 (including in the Studio version). There are quite a lot of features there but aesthetics, decent integration into the main project and user friendliness still leave rather a lot to be desired.

[rpearl]

Well, Sibelius gets my vote. But if you choose Finale, you will still get a great program. Both of them can do anything you want notationally. They both seem to watch what the other is doing, so their upgrades keep pace. If you wait a little longer, Sibelius 5 will be out (no release date - they never announce when it wil happen), and no doubt will be very competive to Finale.

R. Pearl

[dermod]

I have looked into my crystal ball and seen the greeness of the far off fields. My prediction is that you switch to Finale or Sibelius and return to Ov4, perhaps cursing a bit, but a wiser, and certainly a poorer man.

[JamesIII]

I used Finale for about ten years and was a "die hard" user. A while back I decided to notate a new choral work in Sibelius to see what all of the fuss was about. I was instantly hooked. I have been using Sibelius now (with GPO and Sibelius Edition plug-in) for two years and haven't looked back. I did upgrade to Finale 2007 for it's Sibelius-like linked parts to make it easier when I work with older works that were created in Finale. They're both great programs and to its credit, Finale is more "tweakable". However, Sibelius gets my vote for ease of use and faster entry.

James G. Eakin III
Composer-In-Residence,
Turtle Creek Chorale
Assistant Director-Film Scoring program,
Aspen Music Festival & School
www.jameseakin.com

[Jeff Turner]

Download the demos and decide for yourself. But neither one currently has the midi editing capabilities that Overture has. You can edit midi data in either program, but it's not a graphic piano roll editor.

And consider if you have any other people that you might ever exchange files or collaborate with. It'd be best to stay on the same program right from the beginning.

I use Finale 98% of the time and Sibelius for the other 2%. Others are different. Remember there is no "best" notation program. Use the one that works best for you.

Jeff

[wst3ae]

Download the demos and decide for yourself.
Just do yourself a favor and don't let yourself get decision paralysis!! I spent almost two years debating between Finale and Sibelius... it made me crazy! All that wasted time!

I ended, in the end, up choosing Finale for a lot of reasons, non of them particularly feature related!

They are both very cool, very powerful programs. I don't think either one is particularly "intuitive", but then the whole art of engraving is hardly intuitive<G>!

As a composing tool, which is my primary use, I think Finale is fine. I do create the output when I'm done, but most of my stuff is for small-ish ensembles, I could probably do it by hand...


But neither one currently has the midi editing capabilities that Overture has. You can edit midi data in either program, but it's not a graphic piano roll editor.<snip>

That is a big gotcha!

I've become comfortable with the fact that one uses a sequencer to sequence, and a scoring tool to score, and the twain will eventually meet, but I don't see it on the horizon.

To me the big win would be better interchange between tools. MusicXML is way better than MIDI for transmitting the nuances of both performance and engraving, and when two companies get it together and use something like that I think we will all be better off. (I've sent this suggestion to MakeMusic and Cakewalk more than once under the theory that the squeaky wheel gets greased... we'll see!)

For now the combination of Sonar and Finale gives me everything I need, if perhaps not in the easiest form.

[dko22]

Just do yourself a favor and don't let yourself get decision paralysis!! I spent almost two years debating between Finale and Sibelius... it made me crazy! All that wasted time!


good point --it's almost what I'm afraid of. Being utopian is all very well (I'm talking about myself here) but we have to live in the real world. Nevertheless, the flawed and arguably incomplete Overture is likely to remain my utopia substitute for the time being --I'm too used to the idea of creating a performance as I go along... And I'm not sure Cubase/Studio 4 should be completely ruled out either though it becomes increasingly complicated if tracks don't match score staves or more than one MIDI channel per track is required.

[BlueMax]

great thread!! While I may be on the cusp of buying Finale or Sibelius, I should consider the option of a sequencer that also happens to do some decent notation. I'll start my own thread for that! :)

... but I'll be watching this one closely! :n:

[tunesmith]

I have Finale 2006 and Sibelius 4, I always use Sibelius, easier, faster. It works better for me.

[CallMeZoot]

I have the latest versions of both Finale and Sibelius.

I "grew up" with Finale -- used it all through college and grad school (as a composition student), so I know its ins and outs. I'm used to it, and I feel like I can do just about anything in it. It's a very flexible and powerful program, once you've put some time into learning it.

Out of curiosity I cross-graded to Sibelius a year or so ago. I have yet to do any serious work in it, but I have to say I really prefer its editing and layout. I feel like it is much more intuitive to work with, and that scores just look better right off the bat, without having to do so much tweaking.

I still go back to Finale because I know it better, and can work quickly in it. BUT I'm fairly sure that I'll be moving over to Sibelius once I learn its more powerful features.

chris.

[J. Whaley]

My biggest problem with Sibelius is when you're putting notes in, if you want to just play and work on parts you have to actually tell Sibelius you're done putting notes in. Otherwise it just puts note after note. I've messed up so many scores by having a bar selected and not knowing and I just start playing. Before I know it there's notes everywhere and I'm completely distracted trying to figure out what I just input data over.


other than that (which finally put me over the top and sent me back to Finale) I do tend to like Sibelius better.
J-

[J. Whaley]

My biggest problem with Sibelius is when you're putting notes in, if you want to just play and work on parts you have to actually tell Sibelius you're done putting notes in. Otherwise it just puts note after note. I've messed up so many scores by having a bar selected and not knowing and I just start playing. Before I know it there's notes everywhere and I'm completely distracted trying to figure out what I just input data over.


other than that (which finally put me over the top and sent me back to Finale) I do tend to like Sibelius better.
J-

[Nickie Fønshauge]

My biggest problem with Sibelius is when you're putting notes in, if you want to just play and work on parts you have to actually tell Sibelius you're done putting notes in. Otherwise it just puts note after note. I've messed up so many scores by having a bar selected and not knowing and I just start playing. Before I know it there's notes everywhere and I'm completely distracted trying to figure out what I just input data over.
I experienced the same with Overture 3 SE, when I was a PrintMusic user and tried the O3SE, that came with GPO, to see if full Overture was the way to go instead of upgrading to Finale. But, it was such a nuisance to have to open/close the Step Entry window, each time I had to shift from note entry to doodle mode and vice versa. It made me long for good ole PM's Speedy Entry, and thus I ended up upgrading to Finale. And I never had any regrets about it.

Hmmmm, should I repeat this post? ;) :D

[CallMeZoot]

My biggest problem with Sibelius is when you're putting notes in, if you want to just play and work on parts you have to actually tell Sibelius you're done putting notes in. Otherwise it just puts note after note. I've messed up so many scores by having a bar selected and not knowing and I just start playing. Before I know it there's notes everywhere and I'm completely distracted trying to figure out what I just input data over.


other than that (which finally put me over the top and sent me back to Finale) I do tend to like Sibelius better.
J-

That used to get me a lot too -- I just got in the habit of hitting ESC before I do anything, just to make sure it clears out of whatever was last selected. Quick and easy solution if you can get yourself into the habit.

chris.

[qccowboy]

Again, with no fear of repeating what needs to be said, Finale and Sibelius are two very different products with two different ways of working.

A user with patience and a good eye should be able to make either one perform to a professional capacity for notation. however, they really work differently.

I've been using Finale for about 15 years now, and have grown thoroughly used to its idiosyncracies. I tried Sibelius and just couldn't get my mind around its way of doing things. My best friend, on the other hand, switched from Finale to Sibelius and swears by it now. So it really is a personal thing.

Even different users of Finale use it differently as can be seen on the MakeMusic forums - some work constantly in scroll view (like me, for example - I keep all "page view" work until the very last second) while others seem to prefer using it in page view from the outset.

Are you going to be entering notes using your computer keyboard and a mouse? or via a MIDI keyboard? ease of use for whatever means of data entry you prefer is a consideration.

I'm not sure about the very latest version of Sibelius, but I think Finale MAY have a tiny edge on it for playback and ease of integration of GPO. However, please don't take that as an indictment of Sibelius nor as a bonus for Finale.

[karvasika]

I quickly checked out the built-in score editor in Logic Express. It seems you can do pretty much with that too and it's not impossible to write whole symphonies with the score editor either, because you can select each midi track and view it as a score. And extracting parts is very easy, since they are kinda separate already!

So does someone have experiences in using Cubase or Logic as the number 1 notation program as well? At least the good side it to be able to program the thing very well and the notation is there too. Plus you can record background tapes, compose on videos, etc.

[dko22]

I'm trying to evaluate Cubase Studio 4 scoring at the moment. I think it's fair to say that no-one would choose this package if notation is the primary concern but for music production first and ability to produce a score second it might fit the bill. Live recording directly into the score editor seems full of problems (waiting for forum feedback on this one) but step input is perfectly straightforward as I see it. Handling of voices/polyphony is quite advanced in terms of options. And dynamics and articulations can be programmed through the "MIDI meaning" feature -this affects realtime playback only and does not change the actual MIDI data

[johnmarkpainter]

Karvasika,

See my post on Page 1 of this thread.

jmp