Sonar 6 is very nice

[Brian2112]

...In fact it's wicked cool! (to borrow some New England jargon):D

Sorry if you were expecting a thorough review...having way too much fun right now. Just thought I'd pop in and mention it.

Use of virtual instruments and samplers within the host is now seamless. Automate anything...Roll your own knobs to control them...cool stuff!

...2112:)

[wes37]

I know this is a dumb question, but I take it the upgrade is worth it?

I was disaapointed with the functionality of Sonar 5 (not as stable as Sonar 4 on my system) and don't really see anything that makes me think S6 is a "must-buy", but if the users think otherwise, I'd like to hear about it.

Thanks,
Wes

[wst3ae]

what'd you do, drive to Boston and grab a copy from their dispay?

I'm sitting by the door every day awaiting the UPS or FedEx or even USPS truck, whatever they use these days, but it never seems to come.

Bill

[Brian2112]

Hehe!

No, they started shooting them out on Friday via Fed Ex 2nd day. (You have to sign for it btw).
They should have sent you an email with tracking # and the number you use to get your other number.~| :D
They are shipping them out by order recieved but starting with those going from S5 to S6 (I think).

Wes, I'll get back to ya man!:o I'll say this though, I love love love it! But then I liked the 4 to 5 update quite a bit as well. It takes a little getting used to. A lot has changed (for the better) and there is so much more neat stuff - can't even begin to describe. The new "ACT" thing makes the instrument rack a monster. The loopy slicing quantize thing is very cool (but I probably won't use that much). You can now customize your menus and plugs and everything you can think of. The automation is worth it alone. You should go to the site and check it out. I wasn't initially all that phased by the feature list, but now that I have it, I can tell you that it's a Major upgrade. They didn't just slap a new skin on it. Plus, it SEEMS at this point that I am taking less of a CPU/RAM hit (but that may be my imagination) time will tell.

[karmacomposer]

Thank you for the info. I was delighted over Sonar 5, so I know that the 6 upgrade is going to be slamming!

I'll order it after the weekend.

Mike

[kbaccki]

...In fact it's wicked cool! (to borrow some New England jargon):D

You mean: "It's a wickid pissa!" (Boston and surrounding areas)

I mean, Jeezum Crow (Vermont), get yer dialects straight... :D

[Ian Dorsch]

Sonar 5 was so impossibly unstable on my machine that it caused me to move over to Cubase, which runs flawlessly.

I tend to believe that the constant crashes in Sonar had mostly to do with Tascam's wonderful drivers for my old US-428, which I just sold to finance the purchase of a Firepod. Woo-hoo! Maybe it's time to revisit Sonar! :D

[wst3ae]

It's odd really, and I think the basis of the myth that only Pro Tools on a Mac is acceptable for "professional" work (not that the Avid folks do much to kill that rumor<G>!)

Any given software tool on a Windows platform may, or may not work for any given individual! There really is little rhyme or reason... or I suppose I should say quantifying the reason why one persons DAW is stable and another person's is not is very difficult.

And certainly digital audio production puts extreme demands on a computer, which makes the topic a hot one on any forum that discusses such tools!

I've had good and bad experiences with Sonar, Finale, GigaStudio, and other tools on pretty much every version of Windows. I can change motherboards, memory, cpu, disk drives, even audio and MIDI interfaces, and in the end I might get better results, and I might get worse.

What is really fascinating is when you make a change that ought to, in the real world, be a net no-change.... and yet the system behaves differently.

Case in point... I had GigaStudio 2.5 running under Win2K-SP4 on an Athlon Tbird 2500+ with 1GB of memory. It worked pretty well... a corrupted Gig file still stood a good chance of hosing things, instead of exiting gracefully, but that was about the only problem.

Then I upgraded to Windows XP SP2 and GS3, all the hardware remained the same. I did format the system drive before installation, just to be safe.

Nothing worked! I mean crash city. It was ugly.

In the hope of getting to the bottom of the problem I installed a new system disk so I would have space to have multiple copies of the "C" partition for troubleshooting and experimenting.

Never got that far... the thing is working better than my GS2.5 environment. All I changed in this case was the hard disk that hosts the operating system and applications.

Just for laughs, I copied the partition in it's entirety to the old disk and booted from it. Same deal, works well.

Explain that if you can!!!

I think part of the equation is Microsoft's bizarre patch process, which takes forever, and never seems to apply all the same patches even two times in a row.

Part of it certainly is the fact that two identical hardware platforms are difficult to come by. Each of us uses ever so slightly different video cards, audio and midi interfaces, brands of memory, not to mention motherboards and cpus.

And each of us installs our own collection of "must have" utilities. No two collections are the same I'd guess.

Which brings us to Sonar... I've been using Cakewalk since Pro Audio Version 6. I've had really great experiences along the way, and I've had some frustrating one.

Oddly enough I can't pinpoint which ones were the worst, or even the best. I seem to remember that Sonar V3 was a pretty smooth transition, and I vaguely remember wrestling a bit with either 4 or 5, but I don't remember why.

In some cases I've been annoyed with features they included that I don't use, and in some cases I've been annoyed that long standing issues still aren't fixed, and of course there is the ever changing collection of add-ons, which is a minor sticking point...

But I've never run into a show-stopping instability, nothing that would make me go through the pain and suffering associated with learning a new toolset!!!

However, I have witnessed such episodes at friends studios. Really hairy, crash-prone setups that worked before the upgrade. And I haven't a clue as to why.

In one extreme case, I had built the system for my friend, and it was as close to identical to mine as humanly possible. All the hardware was the same, the only real difference was that I own a handful of utilities that he did not deem essential. These are all file management tools (Clone Master, NTD Match, and Partition Magic), and ought to have nothing to do with the DAW.

Yet my system worked, and his did not. Same drivers, almost all the same DAW tools (I use Sound Forge and he did not), and completely different behavior.

So we did the obvious... we swapped system disks. His system disk worked pretty well on my hardware, mine worked fine on his. We swapped back... mine worked on mine (thank goodness), his was still a mess. Reinstalled on a new system disk for him, still a mess.

This was Sonar Version 3, btw. By the time we were ready to throw in the towel a patch was released. We installed it, I was pretty sure this was an exercise in futility, but darned if the thing did not work!

And it has worked ever since, through several updates. He even bought and installed Project5 long before I did, and still, no problems.

It makes no sense to me...

But getting back to the topic at hand - I am looking forward to Sonar 6, already placed my order, and am looking out the window for the Fedex truck as I type<G>...

Bill

ps- I'll still keep my fingers crossed when I install!!!

[Ouch that hurts]

I certainly know where you're coming from Bill.

I have a pretty good multi-PC system now, with Sonar 4 and a couple of Gigastudios. I haven't had any serious DAW-stopping problems (such as pops and clicks, driver incompatibilities, BSODs or anything) for a few years now. But there are still mysteries - odd things that don't work the way you expect, and then one day just DO work for no apparent reason. Or the other way around...

But I think there's an element of cumulative skills and wisdom involved. Once you've set up a good number of DAWs, used them and troubleshooted them, you get gradually better at it, and naturally do a lot of small things in such a way that they contribute to overall stability. I think that's sometimes the key factor.

And no internet connection. That makes a big difference.

It is all a bit of a black art though.

[howardv]

I was in the middle of a project with Sonar 4 when S5 came out and lucky for me I broke my rule and installed the upgrade before I was done. I was amazed at how much better the mixes sounded under S5. I can't believe S6 can do much more for the mix quality but I ordered it anyway.

Howard

[wst3ae]

I certainly know where you're coming from Bill.
bet we're not the only two!!!

I have a pretty good multi-PC system now, with Sonar 4 and a couple of Gigastudios. <snip>
mine is:
(A) Sonar5, Sound Forge, GPO, JABB, DFHs, etc
(B) GigaStudio, Translator, MIDI Disk Tools, etc
(C) a linux box with lots of experimental stuff

At the moment the two Windows boxes are behaving well (and yes, that sound you hear is me knocking on wood!)

They are connected via ethernet, and I run MIDI over the network. Audio is piped via lightpipe between the Dakota card in each. (I'm actually at the point where I'd like to pick up a Montana for the Sonar machine so I can transfer 16 channels of audio instead of 8)

But I think there's an element of cumulative skills and wisdom involved. <snip>
You may be onto something. When things blow up the machine you know not to try that again<G>!

Each machine is configured with three copies of the system partition. The first is my work partition, the second is used to test new software before it makes it's way to the first, and the third is my safety copy, in case I need to start over. The biggest problem is that the operating system components can get out of sync, but keeping all three up to date is a pain!

And no internet connection. That makes a big difference.
I used to do that, but various copy protection schemes, and the need to update software makes it a lot less convenient that it once was! So I have the internet connection, but I disconnect it at the ethernet switch when I don't need it.

I still do 99% of my downloading on my office machine and let it do the virus scanning. Then I copy stuff across the net to the studio machines.

It is all a bit of a black art though.
It wasn't supposed to be!!!

When I put my first computer in my studio (it was an Amiga 2000) I promised myself that it was an appliance. No compilers, no interpreters, and only the utilities I absolutely needed!!! Studio tools only... guess how long that lasted!

Bill

[moops]

A quick question about Sonar 6, which I guess is a follow-on of a topic from a recent posting re. control surfaces: Has the control surface integration improved with S6 as a result of the new wunder-mapping-gadget?
More specifically (selfish me!), has anyone tried S6 with a Mackie MCU? or alternatively the Tascam US-2400?

thanks
Paul

[Lunatique]

Can someone talk about if the ACT feature works?

I just got a Novation ReMOTE 25 SL, and to my dismay, it seems to support just about all the major DAW sequencers out there in its automap feature, EXCEPT for Sonar (I'm told Cakewalk refused to cooperate with Novation, and I'm sure it's because Cakewalk was developing ACT for Sonar 6, which is their version of automapping). Now I'm wondering if I should sell the Remote SL since I bought it mostly for the automapping. But if Sonar 6's ACT works well, then it's like having it for the ReMOTE SL anyway, and I can still use the ReMOTE SL's automapping on other applications like Reason, Cubase..etc.

[Infinite5ths]

I like ACT very much. I'm using it with my Evolution (M-Audio) UC-33e controller. It's got a few limitations (like the number of physical controls that can be mapped for each controller - 8 knobs, 8 sliders/faders, 8 buttons, etc.) and some programming limitations (you can't un-map a single control right now, you have to re-map to a different control/parameter or start from scratch). But overall it is amazing and wonderful -- a HUGE update for Sonar.

The only complaint I have right now is that soft-synths that DO NOT reveal their parameters/controls for automation can't be automated using ACT. GPO is one example. I can't create a software control in ACT (or anywhere else in Sonar, as far as I can tell) that is assigned to "Tune", "VAR 1", etc., because these are not revealed by the Kontakt engine used in GPO. My other synths (such as Wusikstation) reveal all of their controls, and assigning them for automation is a snap with ACT & the new Synth Rack. In S5 and before, I could create a software knob widget (within a MIDI track) that was remote-controlled by MIDI CC, RPN or NRPN data coming from an external controller. I could then assign that software knob so to feed whatever CC, RPN or NRPN data I wanted to the track. It was a two-step process (and a pain in the neck); but it allowed me to automate hardware and non-revealed soft-synth controls by means of an external physical controller. This appears to be gone in S6. EDIT: This feature is NOT missing in S6. I had to dig a little deeper. It's buried in some menus at the bottom of the Track Inspector (Module Options > FX > Show Assignable Controls); and you have to RIGHT-CLICK on the FX button (far lower left corner) in the Console then select Show Assignable Controls. It's all still there, just like in S5 and before. So I don't even have THAT complaint! So what I say in the next paragraph is even MORE important. The list of parameters when selecting "MIDI Parameter Type" for each of these Assignable Controls is STILL EMPTY due to the fact that GPO/Kontakt doesn't reveal its controls to the VSTi interface.

That said, it's about time that GPO/Kontakt learned how to reveal its controls throught the VSTi interface. That's how automation is done today. Regardless of whether Sonar still supports the old, painful two-step mapping setup, Kontakt (and GPO) are painfully difficult to automate compared to synths that DO reveal their controls. I'm tired of having to memorize what CC# controls each sound aspect of GPO, then assign it to a hardware control, then assign a software widget to receive input from that external hardware control, then assign the software widget to feed the proper data to its MIDI track. It's obsurd. This ain't hardware anymore folks!! ~|

[Lunatique]

Thanks for the info!

What about once you've mapped a few vst's and Sonar itself--do you actually save out each template, and Sonar will automatically call up that template when you click on it with your mouse, and all the mapping you've done on that partucular template will then apply to the right knobs/sliders? For example, the ReMOTE SL has automapping, which means anything you do inside a sequencer that supports Novation's automapping will work. Click on one of Reason's synths, and all its parameters will automatically be mapped to the ReMOTE SL, and click on the mixer, all of ReMOTE SL's controls will instantly be remapped to the mixer's parameters.

HOWEVER, for sequencers that don't support Novation's automapping (like Sonar), you can create templates. But every time you switch to a different vst inside Sonar, you'd have to physically change to that template (assuming you've created a template for that given vst) in ReMOTS SL. If you are switching back and forth between some VST's and Sonar itself, imagine the amount of template switching you'd have to do.... That is precisely why I'm hoping Sonar's own A.C.T. works just like Novations's automapping, where you don't have to switch between templates--once you've mapped your vst's, it's stored in memory and will be called upon automatically when you click on them with the mouse.

Another concern is value jumping when you go between different VST's/mixers..etc on the same knob. For example, you twist the knob to 5 o'clock position on a synth, then use that same knob to change a panning on a mixer strip to 9 o'clock position, then go back to that synth and want to turn the knob to 6 o'clock position--will the knob's value all of a sudden jump to 9 o'clock as soon as you move it? Can Sonar's A.C.T. do what Novation does, which is set all controls to "play catch up" when updating values--as in, values only change once you've moved a control to its original position?

[Brian2112]

.. That is precisely why I'm hoping Sonar's own A.C.T. works just like Novations's automapping, where you don't have to switch between templates--once you've mapped your vst's, it's stored in memory and will be called upon automatically when you click on them with the mouse.

I'm pretty sure that is exactly how it works.

Also, check the Cakewalk site. They have streaming vidieos of it here: (*.WMV).

Link (http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Control.asp)

...2112:)

[Ian Dorsch]

That said, it's about time that GPO/Kontakt learned how to reveal its controls throught the VSTi interface. That's how automation is done today.

Kontakt 2 has tons of parameters available to automation.

[carlmsmith]

Anybody know if they are mailing out the automatic Sonar 5 to Sonar 6 upgrade yet(for recent buyers). They said something about 30 days, but I don't know if that's when they begin to send them or that they'll have them all out by then.

Carl

[kbaccki]

Anybody know if they are mailing out the automatic Sonar 5 to Sonar 6 upgrade yet(for recent buyers). They said something about 30 days, but I don't know if that's when they begin to send them or that they'll have them all out by then.

Yes, it was "within 1 month of release" for those buying upgrading to S5 during August. I was one of those and recieved S6 just a few days ago...

[Ted Vanya]

Please forgive if you think my question is changing the subject. Howardv said that a mix he has done sounded much better on Sonar 5 than in Sonar 4. I am running HomeStudio 2004, and having problems with it. Some TechServ guy at Cakewalk suggested that I should try Sonar 5 demo. I downloaded it and found that yes, my mix done in Homestudio sounded considerably better in Sonar 5.
Is it possible,theoretically, that this is true, or Howardv and I just hearing a "new" version of the old mix and therefore it sounds fresher, better to us. My problem of stucked notes also occured in Sonar 5, so my search continues, but I would love to hear some of you commenting on the effect of various sequencers on sound quality.
Thanks

Ted

[howardv]

Ted:

The difference only became evident after I checked off the box enabling the "64-bit double precision engine" in Sonar 5's audio options. Unchecked, the mixes were identical. I was doing a project with 88.2k/24-bit tracks at the time. But the differences were noted in ab listening sessions of the mixed down audio cds (dithered 44.1/16). I also uploaded mp3 rips from the audio cds to the Sonar forum and some listeners there were certain I mixed them differently.

Besides making better instrumental mixes, which were the bulk of that project, I also noted some subtle changes in the way vocals sat on a handful of other tracks. They were slightly more forward. I ultimately had to trim them back slightly to get them to sit the same as they did in the S4 mix.

On a related subject, a few months back I was reading a magazine interview of Ray Charles' former recording engineer and he was going on about how he didn't like daw's for final mixdowns because to his ears as he added tracks, they flatened out the stereo imaging in the mix. He mentioned using Pro Tools for his daw but always tracked out to a big board for his final mix to solve the problem. I wonder if the problem he was hearing really had to do with mixing resolution. He also mentioned he was just begining to use Sonar64... got to also wonder if it makes him change his mind about mixing with daws vrs big boards.

Howard

[kbaccki]

I am running HomeStudio 2004, and having problems with it. Some TechServ guy at Cakewalk suggested that I should try Sonar 5 demo.

Ted, Home Studio 2004 is based on the SONAR 2 mix engine, IIRC. As of SONAR 3 cakewalk overhauled their mix engine significantly, so subsequent versions of HS took advantage of that overhaul.

Is it possible,theoretically, that this is true, or Howardv and I just hearing a "new" version of the old mix and therefore it sounds fresher, better to us.

No, SONAR 5 is an entirely different beast under the hood than SONAR 2/HS 2004 technology. It does provide 64-bit mix capability, as howardv points out, but even the plain old 32-bit engine is significantly different than the SONAR 2 technology. BTW, the latest version of Home Studio is based on SONAR 4, so even there you'd get a significant upgrade in mix engine quality, if you're on a budget. Also, being a registered HS user it looks like you can get SONAR 6 for $350... and they also have promo on SONAR 5 for september...

My problem of stucked notes also occured in Sonar 5, so my search continues,

Interested to hear what you're getting stuck notes with... which controller? routing to outboard MIDI? routing to softsynths? which ones?

Also, the cakewalk.com user forum is accessible to all, and people there are usually very helpful with resolving technical issues, even if you're just using the demo....

[Ted Vanya]

Thanks Howard and Kbaccki. I am starting a new thread, before somebody knocks me on the head steeling the original subject of this thread.
So, thanks

Ted