Finale/Sonar

[earlwgreen]

Hi everyone.

I have several questions for those of you who use Finale and Sonar together.

Can you give a basic 123 on how an arrangement can go from Finale into Sonar then allow for vocal tracks to be added WITHOUT saving the Finale file as a wave and just importing it into Sonar?

Can Finale export only certain parts per .wav or must it be the total arrangement?

How well would the midi file from Finale transfer over to Sonar for more editing? Also, what about the GPO features in midi? Will they transfer to Sonar?

I'm really pleased with Sonar for tracking and mixing, but I used Finale years ago when it first came out, and with Garritan and Kontakt being included in Finale, I may just go with that for my arrangements.

Also, which forum do you suggest for Finale?

Finally, on the Finale site they show Garritan has a General Midi product available and I was wondering if any of you use it? Does it only include GM in one form or are there variations for different instruments? I'm looking at electric pianos, pad, etc.

Thanks!

[marce]

Have you tryed to export a midi file from finale, open it in Sonar and then use the same presets for the kontakt player?

[earlwgreen]

Hi Marcelo,

I don't own Finale yet. That's why I'm asking before I spend the money.:)

If this doesn't work for me, I will do it a different way.

Thanks

[danpowers]

Exporting a MIDI file from Finale into Sonar is how I would go about it.

Also, which forum do you suggest for Finale?
http://forum.makemusic.com/

Finally, on the Finale site they show Garritan has a General Midi product available and I was wondering if any of you use it? Does it only include GM in one form or are there variations for different instruments? I'm looking at electric pianos, pad, etc.
The Garritan General MIDI product has been announced, but has not been released yet, unless I'm totally out of the loop. I think the Finale site is taking pre-orders for it.

[wst3ae]

Vocal tracks aren't my challenge... guitar tracks are!

I find that both Finale-to-Sonar and Sonar-to-Finale can work, depending on what you are trying to do at any given moment. In fact, though I have not done it in a while, running the two programs in parallel is also a valid approach.

What does not work, at least for me, is repeated trips back and forth. The constant changes to both the written score and the underlying MIDI data creates havoc!

Something I've been experimenting with recently is recording the output, as processed by human playback, from Finale into Sonar. It isn't perfect, and I end up still going in and tweaking, but I think I do a little less tweaking than if I create a simple MIDI file in Finale and import it into Sonar. I'm not sure though!

What has worked in the past, but it is a royal pain to set up and get working, is to run the two programs side by side. It ought to be a lot easier than it is, but there is often some in-fighting between the two programs over the device drivers.

I had hoped that I might be able to take the midi out from Finale and drive various soft synths in Sonar on the fly, but it hasn't worked out so well in practice.

Sometimes I write music by, well, writing music. That is, pen to paper, or in my case, mouse to Finale. I tend to think much better this way. Or I like the music that comes out better when I work this way.

But it isn't always the case, and sometimes I start a project in Sonar, but need printable parts, and thus I'll have to copy the MIDI to Finale, and then transcribe what ever audio tracks I want to keep.

It strikes me, from time to time, that the ideal arrangemen would be for Finale to be integrated into Sonar, but given the huge difference between what we might sequence vs what we might write, I'm not sure the result would be all that different.

Would it be cool if Finale added at least one stereo audio track? Probably, for very simple projects, but then I suspect you'd still need to move it back to Sonar for final mix.

I think the root of the problem is that standard notation is still an imperfect way to record what's going on in a musical passage. It's the best we have, but it is imperfect. Each of the respective companies has sought to make their side of the equation as good as they can, and I think they do a pretty good job of it.

[tfishbein82]

Would it be cool if Finale added at least one stereo audio track? Probably, for very simple projects, but then I suspect you'd still need to move it back to Sonar for final mix.

Haven't tried it, but my understanding is that you can open one audio file in Finale now, using the Video Sync feature.

[Richard N.]

I can confirm that you can open mp3 files in F2k7 using the movie window.

It would be a challenge to score against the audio file if it is not in strict tempo though.

[wst3ae]

I can confirm that you can open mp3 files in F2k7 using the movie window.
Too cool! Now I guess I have to upgade<G>!

[/quote]It would be a challenge to score against the audio file if it is not in strict tempo though.[/QUOTE]

Excellent point! One of those little things I just don't think about when I'm typing on the forum... but that probably is the big decision maker as to whether to work in Finale or Sonar... even if I don't think about it.

When I work in Sonar I often start with a guitar track. And Sonar lets me work against that guitar track even if it is not strictly locked to a tempo.

When I work in Finale I might mess with tempo a little, but usually I am just writing, and I'll mess with tempo later, in Sonar.

Dang, never really thought about it that way.

OK, I'll revise my wish to include some kind of conform to tempo tool as well as the audio track<G>!

Bill

[wst3ae]

wait a minute... I wonder if their tap tempo feature would do the trick. I'll bet it would get awfully close.

Now I guess I really have to upgrade to give it a try!!!

Bill

[earlwgreen]

Well, guys, I've been reading your replies and doing more research, and it does appear it will be easier for me to just continue using Sonar and skip Finale at this point.:(

I need the pro end plug-ins for vocals and possible live violin/fiddle so unless someone has a better way for me to do it, I'll just go back to buying GPO then add Kontakt later.

It would be great if you could just make a .wav for each part in Finale then copy those to Sonar for final mixing. That would take time, but I can't seem to find out what quality the wav files will be. I've probably just missed it somewhere.

Any other thoughts, please share them!

[Jun Yamamoto]

Well, guys, I've been reading your replies and doing more research, and it does appear it will be easier for me to just continue using Sonar and skip Finale at this point.:(

I need the pro end plug-ins for vocals and possible live violin/fiddle so unless someone has a better way for me to do it, I'll just go back to buying GPO then add Kontakt later.

It would be great if you could just make a .wav for each part in Finale then copy those to Sonar for final mixing. That would take time, but I can't seem to find out what quality the wav files will be. I've probably just missed it somewhere.

Any other thoughts, please share them!

I am using Finale 2005 so that not very much updated. I sometime uses Finale for writing music and generate MIDI file and import it to SONAR. Fine tuning of MIDI is far much easier in SONAR than Finale, I believe. I can use GPO as SONAR plug-in to perform such MIDI track.

Even if current version of Finale will generate .wav file, I think you cannot tweak detail of performance if once .wav file is generated.

[earlwgreen]

I'm beginning to agree Jun. Sonar does seem to work better with midi, and since I don't need to print perfect scores, I think a may stick with Sonar.

By the way, I really liked Tokyo Tropical Night. Great job. Maybe one day I'll get better at jazz!

Thanks for your input.

[stmain]

Hi earl, sorry I didn't see this post earlier, but here's my take on a few of the issues you bring up. I use both Finale (now 2007) and Sonar PE 5 extensively.

1. Yes, you can absolutely export only certain parts as a .wav file in Finale. Simply go to the instrument list window, check the "solo" box for that particular instrument, and then "save special" to .wav file. Basically, Finale then saves as a .wav file whatever you allow it to "hear." The quality of sound is pretty good, I think -- it's 16 bits only of course, but I've used it in my film-scoring and never had any complaints. The resulting .wav file can then be imported into Sonar, of course.

2. You can ALSO save the file as a midi file. Here's the flow: First, get the file in Finale to sound the way you want it to sound. That includes whatever Human Playback settings you like. Then, select the whole document (highlight with the mass edit tool), then go to "plug-ins," then to "Playback" and find "Apply Human Playback," which will take the HP effects you hear and WRITE them as midi data into the tracks (which is what Sonar needs to be able to make them sound the same way). Next, Save as a midi file. It'll ask what kind; You want Format 1, where each instrument is saved to a separate track == which is the default I think.

3. You asked about tempo changes and fluctuations. If you make tempo changes in Finale (using either Tempo-tap, which I think is a fine utility, or by making metronome changes into the score), you'll obviously want them retained when the file is brought into Sonar. Here's how to do it (and it took me months to figure this out!). DON'T IMPORT THE MIDI FILE INTO AN ALREADY EXISTING SONAR FILE. Instead, once you've saved the file as a midi file (see above), open Sonar. It'll go through the tip of the day, etc. Then just get to the default document page (for me it's two blank audio tracks and two blank midi tracks). Then go to File:Open, and find your midi file. It will open just as you saved it: with every instrument now a labeled track, and all your tempo changes intact. Your midi data should also be in there (CCs and all that stuff).

4. The larger question: why do this? For me, there are certain projects that I only do in Sonar, certain ones I only do in Finale, and those that I need both for. For me, Sonar's "score" view is still really for babies, or rocker-dudes who don't really work in score that often. It's true that in the end I tweak everything in Piano roll view (since that's where Finale has a really crappy interface), but at least in the composition-stage of a piece, I need to SEE it in score. Piano roll view makes me feel like I'm flying blind.

5. Once you've imported your score as above, you can of course add any audio tracks that you need to the project.

Hope that helps! Let me know if anything's unclear.

Steve Main

[earlwgreen]

Perfect answer Steve!

Makes sense. I am interested in the HP feature and also the ability to hear it close to what I want in Finale before going to Sonar.

Another question:

Are the Finale versions of GPO and Kontakt transferable to Sonar, or do I still need to purchase those for Sonar?

This may make me wait on getting Finale until I get the full version of GPO and Kontakt 2.

Thanks.

[stmain]

Hi earl, I've just been fiddling with it, and the best i can make out is "no" on both counts. That is,

1. Sonar couldn't seem to find the FinaleHostVST.dll plugin that would enable the FinaleGPO version (as opposed to the full GPO) to run in Sonar as a VST instrument. I ran the Cakewalk plugin wizard several times, but it just didn't "see" it, though I personally put it in the VST folder.

2. I'm quite sure that the Finale 2007's version of "Kontakt Player" wouldn't work in Sonar, only because this version of Kontakt seems ONLY to work with FinaleGPO sounds. (A few of us long-time Finale types are a bit cross with the Finale people as a result, because their advertising seemed to imply that with the new "Kontakt Player" that comes bundled with Fin2007, we'd be able to load ALL of the various NI library sounds into one player -- and since I use a lot of EastWest stuff also, that's important to me. But it turns out not to be the case).

So, to do as you're proposing, you're right that you'd need to get the full version of GPO.

Hope that helps!
Steve Main

[stmain]

Oh, and one more thing. Remember that you don't technically need Kontakt 2 at all if you want to run any of the NI libraries in Sonar. I don't own Kontakt 2 myself. I just use all as VST instruments, and I'm good to go.

S

[Cantabile]

Hi everyone.

I have several questions for those of you who use Finale and Sonar together.

Can you give a basic 123 on how an arrangement can go from Finale into Sonar then allow for vocal tracks to be added WITHOUT saving the Finale file as a wave and just importing it into Sonar?

Can Finale export only certain parts per .wav or must it be the total arrangement?

How well would the midi file from Finale transfer over to Sonar for more editing? Also, what about the GPO features in midi? Will they transfer to Sonar?

I'm really pleased with Sonar for tracking and mixing, but I used Finale years ago when it first came out, and with Garritan and Kontakt being included in Finale, I may just go with that for my arrangements.

Also, which forum do you suggest for Finale?

Finally, on the Finale site they show Garritan has a General Midi product available and I was wondering if any of you use it? Does it only include GM in one form or are there variations for different instruments? I'm looking at electric pianos, pad, etc.

Thanks!


Definately export midi(format 1). Make sure in the instrument list in finale that each section has its own channel(IE string groups) or else they will all end up on one track and you will end up with alot of extranous cloning and deleting just to seperate parts.

Sonar is a very powerfull tool to further manipulate things.

[earlwgreen]

Wow thanks guys thanks for the input.

Thanks Steve for the heads-up on GPO/Finale and Kontakt Player/Finale. I would be upset too if I had counted on using Kontakt as my main player and found out it wouldn't work. The reason for needing Kontakt is the organ samples I want to use require either Kontakt or Hauptwerk and since Hauptwerk is only for organs, I can use Kontakt for many different instruments.

Thanks Robert for the tips on bringing Finale into Sonar.

So, it looks like I'm back to using Sonar with GPO and later I'll purchase Kontakt when I'm ready to start using the organ samples.

Any other thoughts are welcomed!

[billp]

It is possible to drive SONAR from Sibelius and other midi-based music generation software, and I'll bet you can do the same from Finale.

I use Midi Yoke (http://www.midiox.com/), which is free, as virtual midi cables, and route the midi out from Sibelius through Midi Yoke into SONAR, which serves essentially as a synth rack.

Midi Yoke has 8 midi ports, each of which support the full 16 channels, so a total of 128 channels is available.

I create a project in SONAR whose tracks match 1-to-1 the staves in Sibelius or other music generation software, and assign the midi tracks to the appropriate voices in SONAR. Matching the track configurations between Sibelius and SONAR greatly simplifies the eventual import of the midi file.

This arrangement enables you to hear pretty much what you will get when you import the midi file into SONAR. This also enables you to use any soft synth you want, including GPO, since they're hosted by SONAR.

Once Midi Yoke is installed (a simple matter), you simply start SONAR and Finale and you're all set...well almost...

If you want the details on this, let me know. I have used this technique with other music generation software as well, with excellent results.

[earlwgreen]

Thanks Bill for the info.

Jonathan Orwig mentioned MidiYoke to me for another program. I'll give it a look. If I need more help with that, I'll let you know.

I'm still shying away from Finale at this point. Maybe later after I've made some money from my projects!:D

Thanks again.

[edteja]

You can always use the instrument list to disable instruments and record .wavtracks from a score in finale one at a time. Cumbersome, yes, but it works. Then pull them into SONAR and mix and master.

[earlwgreen]

Thanks edteja. I thought about that, but if I want to redo a part, I have to put it back in Finale, adjust it, especially if it's a note or timing, then bring it back into Sonar.

The best part about having Sonar and Finale use the same samples is cost. After you buy one product, you just use it back and forth, at least until all the vocals are tracked. Then you finish it in Sonar.

When I get the money, I'll add Finale. But, right now, I want to collect the GPO and Jazz and General Midi packages first. Those are more important.

Thanks again for the input.

[marce]

You can always use the instrument list to disable instruments and record .wavtracks from a score in finale one at a time. Cumbersome, yes, but it works. Then pull them into SONAR and mix and master.

Dont support Sonar the multiple outputs of Kontakt player? That way, you can route each instrument to a diffrent track, and record a separated wave in one only pass.

[Terry]

You can make a wav part of each instrument or any group of instruments by soloing the parts you want to record. The quality of the wav files seems fine to me.

Terry

[Terry]

Sorry! I posted before reading all 3 pages.

Terry