Overture vs Finale (current opinions)

[dewdman42]

Ok... for a little lively debate. Some time has passed now since Oveture4 came out, and also since FinaleGPO came out. Which setup do you guys prefer, including if you use other sample libraries in addition to GPO? Which setup and why? if you use one or the other and have not worked with both, please don't respond with all the reasons why you love the one you have unless you've also worked with the other. I'm looking for a real objective comparison between the two.

Also, all the obvious points about Finale being a standard, being perhaps superior for typesetting purposes, etc.. Those discussions have been had many times and don't need to be repeated.

I'm mainly interested in the CURRENT state of affairs in terms of ease of input, ease of editing, ease of setup, humanization of playback, interrpretation of dynamics and other markings during playback, compatability with the important VST plugins and sample libraries, etc.. In other words, if you're a composer and you want to compose with one of these tools and produce audio with them..which do you prefer and why? Overture claims this to be their forte. But Finale has made big strides in this direction in recent years.

Thoughts?

[dbudde]

Is there some reason you've left Sibelius out of the discussion?

I've looked at all three and Sibelius wins by far for stability, ease of use, feature completeness and speed of entry.

I used to think Overture was going to be a boon, but they've lost all credibility with the constant dismissal of Mac support in version 4.

What little experience I have with Finale 2005 and 2006, then seem to be less stable than Sibelius. Looking at the forum postings confirms this.

[dewdman42]

well, now that you mention it... let's include Sibelius and Notion too...sure.. I have been more interested in Finale recently because of the Human playback and the stuff Gary is doing with them. I am specifically trying to find out who has the best midi playback capabilities....in a notation package.

[dbudde]

Sibelius playback is better than they will admit to. Their GPO playback is limited to their internal sample player which has limitations on number and combinations of instruments, unless you know about this little undocumented feature (http://web.mac.com/dbudde/iWeb/Plugins/GPO.html).

They don't support JABB in the same way as they support GPO, but using the same technique, one can make JABB just as useful in Sibelius ([URL="http://web.mac.com/dbudde/iWeb/Plugins/JABB.html).

[Jeff Turner]

I am specifically trying to find out who has the best midi playback capabilities....in a notation package.

Overture's the only one that gives you sequencer type controls over the midi data. if that's what you're looking for. I prefer to just use a sequencer if that's what I need.

I'm a Finale user, and I think that 2007 is a huge upgrade. Here's a description that I'm quoting from Tyler on the Finale forum about the HP enhancements in 2007.

"The enhancements to HP are going to be useful to users of a lot of different libraries. The idea this time around was essentially to allow users to define how the stuff HP looks for gets played back. And you can save these as sets - so you could have an EWQLSO set, a GJBB set, a Garritan Marching Band set, etc. What you can't do yet is define WHAT it is that HP is looking for. But Robert has been expanding the library, and even as of 2006 it was able to consider a large amount of elements.

So if you are playing to a library that required a particular keyswitch, patch change or continuous controller message to switch to a pizzicato patch, now you can tell HP how to do that and save it so that you don't have to do it again. HP will employ that technique whenever it encounters a pizzicato in the score. Different files can have different preferences saved with them. I believe they will be including preference sets for some of the more popular libraries today. Also, people should be able to share preferences with each other, so once someone develops a set, others should be able to benefit from that."


What little experience I have with Finale 2005 and 2006, then seem to be less stable than Sibelius. Looking at the forum postings confirms this.

This is a bit of an overstatement. We can find posts by users who are having trouble with every notation/sequencer program. My personal observation is that users who have problems with Finale/GPO playback for instance, quite often haven't read the documentation. There's a very comprehensive HP/GPO tutorial that came with 2006. Almost every possible problem is addressed in that document.

I use Sibelius occasionally too. I don't find either Sib. or Fin. to be more (or less) stable than each other. They're both professional programs with devoted users. But what I see as the bottom line, the publisher that I work for, about 70% of the composers use Finale and the other 30% use Sibelius. And the Sibelius files get transferred into Finale for the final printed product.

Jeff

[Michael_uk]

Is there some reason you've left Sibelius out of the discussion?

I've looked at all three and Sibelius wins by far for stability, ease of use, feature completeness and speed of entry.

I used to think Overture was going to be a boon, but they've lost all credibility with the constant dismissal of Mac support in version 4.

What little experience I have with Finale 2005 and 2006, then seem to be less stable than Sibelius. Looking at the forum postings confirms this.

I disagree. I have used Finale for many years and have found no stability problems. I have trialled Sibelius a number of times and have found Finale to be superior in ease of use and speed of entry. Regarding completeness, I feel that presently Sibelius is chasing Finale particularly with working with GPO. I am not aware of anything Sibelius can do that Finale cannot. What forum postings? I have been reading the forums too and I'm not aware that these forums have put down Finale! In fact, it seems to me from the forum posts that Finale is more popular.

Regarding Overture, I have only ever looked at this very briefly so I can't really make any personal comparisons with this.

I would suggest trying demos of each of these to see for yourself. For the rest of us we have our own ways of working and for many of us Finale is the tool to use. For others Sibelius or Overture is the way to go. It's really a matter of preference.

[dbudde]

I disagree. I have used Finale for many years and have found no stability problems. I have trialled Sibelius a number of times and have found Finale to be superior in ease of use and speed of entry. Regarding completeness, I feel that presently Sibelius is chasing Finale particularly with working with GPO. I am not aware of anything Sibelius can do that Finale cannot. What forum postings? I have been reading the forums too and I'm not aware that these forums have put down Finale! In fact, it seems to me from the forum posts that Finale is more popular.


Maybe this has all been fixed. If so, then great. But when I was looking at crossgrading to Finale (around the time Finale 2006 was coming out) the finale forum was fraught with playback issues so I opted not to crossgrade. The playback feature was the most important one to me at the time. And it's my understanding that this is the main reason there were 4 releases of Finale 2006.

I hardly think Sibelius is playing catch up with Finale. I'll agree they each have their strengths and weaknesses. I notice, for instance, Finale 2007 is just now introducing linked parts.

[chmara]

I am fully Mac...and have been waiting with baited breath for Overture 4 to be ready for Mac.

Meanwhile - I am getting older.

I know it must be a programer's nightmare -- and with the translation now having to go to Unimac.....


BUT - the interface between sequencer and notation IS trhe next step and needed on Mac desperately.

I have found both Finale and Sib too limiting in needing to marry sequencing with notation and get out what I need...at a price I can afford.

[Cataclysm]

I disagree. I have used Finale for many years and have found no stability problems. I have trialled Sibelius a number of times and have found Finale to be superior in ease of use and speed of entry. Regarding completeness, I feel that presently Sibelius is chasing Finale particularly with working with GPO. I am not aware of anything Sibelius can do that Finale cannot. What forum postings? I have been reading the forums too and I'm not aware that these forums have put down Finale! In fact, it seems to me from the forum posts that Finale is more popular.

Actually, I've seen several other users in other forums who greatly prefer Sibelius over Finale. Of course, it's just a matter of preference.

[dermod]

Working on a score without the ability to edit midi data and mix sample programs without leaving the page, must be like a cutting feature films with a black and white monitor. The others will follow, but OV4 is there today.

[Michael_uk]

Actually, I've seen several other users in other forums who greatly prefer Sibelius over Finale. Of course, it's just a matter of preference.

Of course .. and there are several other users in other forums who greatly prefer Finale over Sibelius .. and several other users who prefer Overture over both Finale and Sibelius. It is just a matter of preference and this is exactly my point so it is unhelpful, in my opinion, to claim that the forums are putting one or the other down.

[GigaLove]

gpo users can get overture 4 for 200 bucks. compared to finale and sibelius which are more as 3 times as expensive.....this is very attractive.

but well...I'm a notation prog beginner. i wonder which one is the fastest program...the one that needs the fewest clicks.

-so which one of the three is the most comfortable concerning the typing-in of notes via mouse...editing etc...?

-is overture the only one which has true vst support?

notion looks to me very good concerning how it reacts elegant on dynamic instructions...and the tap-tempo-control is very cool (all sequenzers should have that nowadays)...but the narrowness of the prog concerning midi, the intern library and the lack of vst support does it disqualify from the race imo.

[Collin]

Can any of these programs sync an audio track? A lot of my work is writing arrangements for existing songs. At this point I have to start in cubase in order to hear the song along with my added horns or what ever Overture can load an audio track, but must be played from the beginning every time. For me the first score program to truely playback audio wins. I guess you would end up with a cubase type program but with the score page being the main page.
Anybody use logic?

[dbudde]

gpo users can get overture 4 for 200 bucks. compared to finale and sibelius which are more as 3 times as expensive.....this is very attractive.



Sibelius and Finale can both be had for nearly the same. I picked up and old copy of Encore on ebay for $10 and crossgraded to Sibelius for $200. The same is possible for Finale.

[dbudde]

Can any of these programs sync an audio track? A lot of my work is writing arrangements for existing songs. At this point I have to start in cubase in order to hear the song along with my added horns or what ever Overture can load an audio track, but must be played from the beginning every time. For me the first score program to truely playback audio wins. I guess you would end up with a cubase type program but with the score page being the main page.
Anybody use logic?

I think you'd just need to build a tempo map of your audio file and use that to synch to the notation program. Both Sibelius and Finale have the ability to sync to movies. This is not frame accurate though and I haven't used this feature but it looks like it would be useful for that.

I use logic (or have used it). I am mostly using DP these days.

[GigaLove]

Sibelius and Finale can both be had for nearly the same. I picked up and old copy of Encore on ebay for $10 and crossgraded to Sibelius for $200. The same is possible for Finale.



wow....that's a good hint. that changes a lot in my calculations. so "encore" qualifies to crossgrade for both sibelius as finale?

edit: well...just took a look at ebay. the prices for encore are far above 10 bucks

[dbudde]

wow....that's a good hint. that changes a lot in my calculations. so "encore" qualifies to crossgrade for both sibelius as finale?

yes, but I assume you can probably only get one or the other from a single copy of encore.

http://www.sibelius.com/shop/upgrades.html
http://www.finalemusic.com/finale/pricelist.aspx

[TomcatII]

What I did was to use my copy of Rhapsody (the little brother of Encore) to crossgrade to Finale (because Sebelius wouldn't take that one) for $199 and then when I had Finale in hand and on my computer I crossgraded to Sebelius for $199. Sebelius requires you to tear out 2 pages from the contents section of your Finale manual and send them to Sebelius before they will give you the authorization number to make Sebelius work. Also, Finale required me to send them my Rhapsody master disks in order to get the crossgrade but I didn't care since I hadn't used the program in about 8 years, partly because it wouldn't work in WinXP and partly because I didn't like the way it worked anyway; I had just never gotten rid of it.

Tom

[dbudde]

edit: well...just took a look at ebay. the prices for encore are far above 10 bucks

Guess I got lucky. I got mine just as Passport was going out of business.

[rikp]

Is Overture a PC only platform?

Peace

rikp

[dbudde]

Is Overture a PC only platform?

Peace

rikp

There is a mac version for version 3. There has been a commitment for a mac version for version 4. No evidence of that so far though. It has slipped at least 9 months from the original commit date.

[Cantabile]

I just have one wish. To include a fairly decent staff set in Sonar. That is all that it is missing!

Sorry about the rest of the topic. I have only used Finale. Opened overture SE once that came with GPO ages ago and it is still installed, however I do not use it:)

[rikp]

There is a mac version for version 3. There has been a commitment for a mac version for version 4. No evidence of that so far though. It has slipped at least 9 months from the original commit date.


Thanks for the info!

Peace

rikp

[NeoDavinci]

Many thoughts on this.
I tried the Overture trial earlier this year. It was buggy to say the least. Playback would go wacky (and actually affected other programs at times). I tried to play an mp3 in Quicktime immediately after using Overture and found that audio had dropped in pitch but not in speed. Same with playback through my external tv tuner. That never happened again after I rebooted, but I didn't play much with Overture's playback after that either.
Also, the entry wasn't really all that intuitive, and following their tutorial to the letter doesn't always do what the tutorial says it does. The behavior of their keyboard shortcuts struck me a wrong approach (things that appeared to be active on the screen were not actually what was being carried out). I appreciated the intent of the program, but it felt like beta software. I'll check back periodically because I really do think they are headed in the best direction.
I dropped Finale years ago and have never wanted to return to it, but it's VST capabilities over Sibelius interest me. That said, it's demo felt like it would be a slower working environment than Sibelius, probably only because I've been using Sibelius for 10 years.
I still like Sibelius's input methods the best, but the playback at this point makes me mad. First of all, I already own GPO and Sibelius and don't really want to pay another $50 to use them together more effectively than I can with GPO studio (actually a lot more $ than that because I would have to upgrade to the newest version of Sibelius as well, which I would only be getting for GPO playback). Plus, I see no reason to think Sibelius won't make me upgrade the two separately every time a new version comes out, but I have a sneaking suspicion they'll make me maintain the latest version of both for compatibility. Also, GPO doesn't cover all of my sound needs--chorale for instance--and Sibelius is charging separately for any add on I might like (a rather limited list), all of which will be subject to uprade at some point. You could easily spend $600 to $1000 getting the sounds you want in Sibelius and still not be able to use most of your actual samples. This makes either Finale (assuming your samples are in Kontakt, which mine are but a lot of yours probably aren't) or Overture a much cheaper option as a composer.
Notion reminds me of Igor Engraver on the face of it. I'd wait and see if it pans out at all.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I have yet to see any notation program marginally approach the ease of entry or musicality of a sequencer.

So, I have always taken the route of composing/sequencing in a sequencer, and hard-quantizing a copy of the MIDI file for import into an engraving program.

In this fashion, the priorities are better, I think. You hear more of a performance while composing, and it's much, much easier to quantize a human performance than to UN-quantize and get a semblance of humanity from a notation program.

[imagegod]

I have yet to see any notation program marginally approach the ease of entry or musicality of a sequencer.
To each his own...clearly this is true for you. And I respect that truth completely. But for a visually oriented individual such as myself, Overture has been a Godsend...I 'see' music (or imagine it, if you will) as notes on a staff...without Ove4, I'd never be able to compose anything but simple, rudimentary music. With it, my work has allowed me to approach great classical structures with a sweeping classical sound (along with GPO, I might add...thanks Mr. G!).

I've used trials of both Sibelius and Finale (pre-GPO) and neither approached the ease of Oveture 4. Again, that's just me.

I'm not a musician...I know nothing about musical theory. I only understand music...deeply, passionately, and Overture allows me to reproduce that understanding and that passion as Art (or something approaching 'Art').

Thanks!

[GigaLove]

-just a short interposed question: does finale have a piano roll editor? couldn't find any info on their page....

-ok another one: is it possible to customize the shortcuts in overture? why does overture have no queing function?

-sorry....here goes question nr3: in overture: while moving notes up/down with the keyboard arrows...any possibility to make them playing the new tone (audio monitoring)? in contrast to other notation progs this seems to be mute in overture....:confused:



thanks for all infos:|:

[Hermitage59]

I'm still on Sib 3 for notation, and xport the midi file. I won't be going Sib 4, as i think the lack of VST, or VSTi is deplorable. In this day and age, notation is still an integral part of many composer's requirements, and it just makes me think the general lack of attention to this facet of music proves an unwillingness on the part of DAW and notation program builders to really nail an engraving quality score editor. (Notion is sample inclusive, so that's out). There's probably more cash in the rest of the program, hence the neglect.
And just to rub salt into the wound, as another poster mentioned, Sib users get bolt ons, which have to be paid for. I find that unacceptable given their blurb emphasises the 'playability' of the program. I don't want to use Kontakt, just have a hosting ability to use my own sounds.
And then there's the plugin for hairpins..........:mad:
Fundamental, heavily used input, reduced to slow, manual midi process.

Overture has some way to go, but like others, i'll keep an eye on it, at least for the next year or so (for the VST and hopefully AU hosting). If they don't have a Mac version by then, i suspect they probably won't have one at all.

Bruce, "I do it your way" (cue Frank) for much of the short stuff, as scores are generally not required.
But it's still a workaround. Be a lot easier to write fast in notation and get a good sound too.
How hard is that?
(Still waiting for a big 20" 'Midi' writing tablet that does good score input, includes a stack of templates, and plays back any samples i want, with a good, complete, does what it says on the tin notation program, that's rock solid. Take one stylus, one coffee, one cigar, put the feet up, relax, and write like a madman....)

Or am i being Old Fashioned, and we're heading to the stage where manuscript and notes on a page will be things of the past, and we simply plug muso's into a midi input box, and make 'em play back the file, "live"?

Where are we going to put the jack plug?

:eek:

[Doralin]

I'm mainly interested in the CURRENT state of affairs in terms of ease of input, ease of editing, ease of setup, humanization of playback, interrpretation of dynamics and other markings during playback, compatability with the important VST plugins and sample libraries, etc.. In other words, if you're a composer and you want to compose with one of these tools and produce audio with them..which do you prefer and why? Overture claims this to be their forte. But Finale has made big strides in this direction in recent years.

Thoughts?

At the current moment, Overture4 is the best. Because,

1. Overture4 supports almost all VSTi and VST FX, while Finale 2007 supports only Native Instruments plugins.
2. With Overture4, we can attach midiCC (+, - and absolute value), program change and key switch to expression and articulation mark , while with Finale 2007, we probably can attach only key switch to the mark.
3. Overture4 has voice function which enable us to switch sound from shortbow to legato (and so on) very smoothly. It dosen't effect any change in scores (but the color of notes might change).
4. The haripin mark of Overtur4 has the multiple time-series values of every midiCC such as moderation(CC#1), volume(CC#7) and expression(CC#11).
5. Overture4 has many default settings to control various sound libraries, and Finale 2007 is going to catch up it.

Someone wrote Overture4 isn't stable, but I disagree with it. Of course, Overture4 has bugs as many as the other softwares have.
But, I think Finale will become more catching than before, because it will have a free Kontakt2 player and continual collaboration with Garritan.

---------------------------------------
Tatsu Nagao
Kontakt2, Overture4, CubaseSL3,
Fender ST58-70TX, YAMAHA P-120

[NeoDavinci]

Someone wrote Overture4 isn't stable, but I disagree with it. Of course, Overture4 has bugs as many as the other softwares have.

Actually, I said: "It was buggy to say the least" and then gave examples.
You've got my curiosity up though. How many of you feel Overture is what you would term stable? While I used the demo:
1) It crashed regularly. Sibelius doesn't.
2) It adversely affected other programs ability to play back sound, even after it was closed. I've never had another audio program exhibit that particular bug.
3) It behaved oddly in terms of input.
4) It had beautiful integration with GPO.

Do most of you really find Overture stable? I'm certainly willing to give it another shot.

[Doralin]

1) It crashed regularly. Sibelius doesn't.
2) It adversely affected other programs ability to play back sound, even after it was closed. I've never had another audio program exhibit that particular bug.
3) It behaved oddly in terms of input.
4) It had beautiful integration with GPO.

Hello NeoDavinci,

I don't have the experience like 1) and 2). But, last month I had several crashes which came along with new patch, and this problem was solved in a few days. I think it hasn't crashed regularly .

As to 3), I feel there seems to be room for improvement. When I tried to move notes up or down with my mouse, sometimes I couldn't move them, and I was resigned to moving them with arrow keys. I guess the cause may be in the VST hosting function. But I don't feel very big frustration.

I think Overture4 is almost stable. Geniesoft is a small company whose staff is only one person, but he is committed to suport his users as shown by his actions, like this forum here.

Bests,
---------------------------------------
Tatsu Nagao
Kontakt2, Overture4, CubaseSL3,
Fender ST58-70TX, YAMAHA P-120

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Bruce, "I do it your way" (cue Frank) for much of the short stuff, as scores are generally not required.
But it's still a workaround. Be a lot easier to write fast in notation and get a good sound too.
How hard is that?
(Still waiting for a big 20" 'Midi' writing tablet that does good score input, includes a stack of templates, and plays back any samples i want, with a good, complete, does what it says on the tin notation program, that's rock solid. Take one stylus, one coffee, one cigar, put the feet up, relax, and write like a madman....)

Now, that is a very good point!

There is handwriting recognition for Wacom tablets that can get surprisingly close to what one has "written" on the tablet. It should be MUCH easier to translate musical notation from tablet entry, since the language is so much simpler. I know that I would be able to really fly on a system like that, much more so than any of the ones I've used. Finale makes me feel like I'm being tortured, as does Overture. Some of my colleagues use Sibelius, but I find it equally tortured. And pricey, considering the graphics quality and UI of all these notation programs tends to underwhelm.

I suspect the reason we have not seen this kind of development is very much the size of the market. There's just not enough sales to do even the level of QA work we'd like to see in the software, much less the kind of R&D effort which would be required to do a tablet-translation. However, there has been some significant recent penetration into the educational markets, so it is probably a good time for professional musicians to step up to the plate and insist that new resources be allocated towards making these programs actually usable. At present, none are anything approaching a joy to use.

But, I can't agree with you and others more about the efficiency of notation as a way to communicate performance data. I still sketch on paper, then sequence, because I can jot down a page of raw material faster than I can play it (and much faster than I can "notate" it in any of the so-called notation programs).

I nearly wore the pages off my Clinton Roemer "Art of Music Copying" book as a young pup, and once you've learned the tricks, it does go very, very quickly.

That book is subtitled "The Preparation of Music for Performance," and it deals with so many issues that even the best notation programs don't, in terms of how to best present music for the best possible first read. Ironic, that this is fast becoming a lost art, especially since the notation programs don't really address a lot of the

[Hermitage59]

Hmmmm, what we actually need is a small computer disguised as a writing tablet (just the screen, no keys), so we can write without being plugged in if we want, and the unit doubles as a 'controller' as well. (Bluetooth or wireless midi data transfer?) Drop the completed midi file in your favourite sequencer, and we're off and running, putting the finishing touches in with final adjustments. All symbols, hairpins, ornaments, etc, should be midified, (with manual options if desired) and playback cleanly.
For us parchment types, who like to write, and can do so fairly neatly, can you imagine how much time we'd save?
Especially if all midi symbols and instrument playing instructions (including legato) were recognised, and automatically triggered the right samples, in our favourite libraries. Write, and VSL or GPO plays back the right samples, approximate durations, and legatos and sustains properly, with automatic sample retrigger if neccessary.
With a large collection of templates, including Film timecode layouts, we'd be getting somewhere close.
Need to be 20" or so to get two pages in, and it should be square i guess, to get the depth in the page. (No squashed staves.)Perhaps light, almost transparent grey lines denoting ledger lines for assisted accuracy? And vertical lines for denoted beats, with a small square at the bottom of each score barline that we can use to drag barlines if we need to?
Toolbar across the top with denoted tempo script that we just 'pick up' with a double tap of the stylus, and put on the score? Maybe dynamic markings as well? Double tap and place, as opposed to click and drag?

Hmmm........

:D

[astrt4]

Now, that is a very good point!

There is handwriting recognition for Wacom tablets that can get surprisingly close to what one has "written" on the tablet. It should be MUCH easier to translate musical notation from tablet entry, since the language is so much simpler. I know that I would be able to really fly on a system like that, much more so than any of the ones I've used. Finale makes me feel like I'm being tortured, as does Overture. Some of my colleagues use Sibelius, but I find it equally tortured. And pricey, considering the graphics quality and UI of all these notation programs tends to underwhelm.

I suspect the reason we have not seen this kind of development is very much the size of the market. There's just not enough sales to do even the level of QA work we'd like to see in the software, much less the kind of R&D effort which would be required to do a tablet-translation. However, there has been some significant recent penetration into the educational markets, so it is probably a good time for professional musicians to step up to the plate and insist that new resources be allocated towards making these programs actually usable. At present, none are anything approaching a joy to use.


Notating on a tablet by writing the notes in could never be as fast as the current systems employed by notation programs. Bruce, I have to guess you've never taken the time to get proficient at any of the qwerty or step-time MIDI entry systems in Finale or Sibelius.


At the current moment, Overture4 is the best. Because,

1. Overture4 supports almost all VSTi and VST FX, while Finale 2007 supports only Native Instruments plugins.
2. With Overture4, we can attach midiCC (+, - and absolute value), program change and key switch to expression and articulation mark , while with Finale 2007, we probably can attach only key switch to the mark.
3. Overture4 has voice function which enable us to switch sound from shortbow to legato (and so on) very smoothly. It dosen't effect any change in scores (but the color of notes might change).
4. The haripin mark of Overtur4 has the multiple time-series values of every midiCC such as moderation(CC#1), volume(CC#7) and expression(CC#11).
5. Overture4 has many default settings to control various sound libraries, and Finale 2007 is going to catch up it.


The original poster was also interested in other areas of these programs, including input. Overture isn't up to Finale or Sibelius in this area.

But regarding your list:

1. If the samples he wants to use load in Kontakt, Finale should provide the functionality needed.
2. Finale has for many years allowed expressions to be set to all of the MIDI functions you listed.
3. Human Playback will look for markings like slurs and switch samples accordingly. You can also enter expressions via metatools (one click) if you want to set these changes manually.

[dko22]

To each his own...clearly this is true for you. And I respect that truth completely. But for a visually oriented individual such as myself, Overture has been a Godsend...I 'see' music (or imagine it, if you will) as notes on a staff...without Ove4, I'd never be able to compose anything but simple, rudimentary music. With it, my work has allowed me to approach great classical structures with a sweeping classical sound (along with GPO, I might add...thanks Mr. G!).

I've used trials of both Sibelius and Finale (pre-GPO) and neither approached the ease of Oveture 4. Again, that's just me.

I'm not a musician...I know nothing about musical theory. I only understand music...deeply, passionately, and Overture allows me to reproduce that understanding and that passion as Art (or something approaching 'Art').

Thanks!
I am not sure how it can be easier to produce a score using a sequencer first and then a notation programme. If you are playing in real time without a metronome and without a desire to produce a score then a sequencer is probably better because of a much greater feature set. But I have tried to convert previously sequenced works using Cubase SL3 time warp into a score usable format and it's a complete nightmare unless what you play is pretty exact to begin with.

Since starting with Overture, I have improved my technique I think simply by seeing the music on the page and being able to clearly follow it and I agree with Imagegod that it can actually aid composition! This came really as a big surprise to me! I feel Overture is still too buggy but the intuitive basic workflow and very good VST support means I would prefer to stick with it and hope it grows and matures, rather than having to move at some point to a more expensive alternative. A piano roll editor is essential in a notation programme and even though in Overture it is currently rather clumsily implemented (a combination of a very old Cakewalk and new Ov. "edit midi data" screen which don't always quite work together), it does at least exist!

[KeithW]

Now, that is a very good point!

There is handwriting recognition for Wacom tablets that can get surprisingly close to what one has "written" on the tablet. It should be MUCH easier to translate musical notation from tablet entry, since the language is so much simpler. I know that I would be able to really fly on a system like that, much more so than any of the ones I've used. Finale makes me feel like I'm being tortured, as does Overture. Some of my colleagues use Sibelius, but I find it equally tortured. And pricey, considering the graphics quality and UI of all these notation programs tends to underwhelm.

I suspect the reason we have not seen this kind of development is very much the size of the market. There's just not enough sales to do even the level of QA work we'd like to see in the software, much less the kind of R&D effort which would be required to do a tablet-translation. However, there has been some significant recent penetration into the educational markets, so it is probably a good time for professional musicians to step up to the plate and insist that new resources be allocated towards making these programs actually usable. At present, none are anything approaching a joy to use.

But, I can't agree with you and others more about the efficiency of notation as a way to communicate performance data. I still sketch on paper, then sequence, because I can jot down a page of raw material faster than I can play it (and much faster than I can "notate" it in any of the so-called notation programs).

I nearly wore the pages off my Clinton Roemer "Art of Music Copying" book as a young pup, and once you've learned the tricks, it does go very, very quickly.

That book is subtitled "The Preparation of Music for Performance," and it deals with so many issues that even the best notation programs don't, in terms of how to best present music for the best possible first read. Ironic, that this is fast becoming a lost art, especially since the notation programs don't really address a lot of the
Here are some links to some academic papers, so I know this can be done:
http://graphics.cs.brown.edu/research/pub/papers/music.pdf
www.cs.brown.edu/publications/theses/ugrad/2005/gtaubman.pdf (http://www.cs.brown.edu/publications/theses/ugrad/2005/gtaubman.pdf)
If one of the "big two" would put this capability into their program, the other would surely follow. I've asked the Sibelius folks for this before, but I guess they don't see the value of it.

Keith Walls

[Doralin]

But regarding your list:

1. If the samples he wants to use load in Kontakt, Finale should provide the functionality needed.
2. Finale has for many years allowed expressions to be set to all of the MIDI functions you listed.
3. Human Playback will look for markings like slurs and switch samples accordingly. You can also enter expressions via metatools (one click) if you want to set these changes manually.

As to 2, I want to add that not only the expressions but also the articulations and dynamics of Overture4 can be set to all of midiCC. And the all marks except for dymamics also can be set to a key switch. The slur arc has a sending ghost note function for VSL legato, too. They are very useful for me.

I hope Finale will catch up with Overture4 in playback. I'm very interested in the collaboration between Finale and GPOA.

---------------------------------------
Tatsu Nagao
Kontakt2, Overture4, CubaseSL3,
Fender ST58-70TX, YAMAHA P-120

[dko22]

I hope Finale will catch up with Overture4 in playback. I'm very interested in the collaboration between Finale and GPOA.


At least Finale, unlike Sibelius, recognises Overture as a product for a competitive upgrade. $199 will secure you a copy of Finale 7 (though how you can return a non-existent Ov. 4 masterdisk I'm not sure). I'm hoping though, that Ov. 4 development will continue as it's still ahead of the field in important areas.

[astrt4]

As to 2, I want to add that not only the expressions but also the articulations and dynamics of Overture4 can be set to all of midiCC. And the all marks except for dymamics also can be set to a key switch. The slur arc has a sending ghost note function for VSL legato, too. They are very useful for me.

I hope Finale will catch up with Overture4 in playback. I'm very interested in the collaboration between Finale and GPOA.

---------------------------------------
Tatsu Nagao
Kontakt2, Overture4, CubaseSL3,
Fender ST58-70TX, YAMAHA P-120


Expressions in Finale can include just about anything. Dynamics are expressions. Tempo markings are expressions. You could use expressions as articulations (or vice versa) if you wanted to.

When it comes to default playback - the sound you get without any tweaking of MIDI data, etc. - Finale's playback is probably the best of any notation program, thanks to HP. Overture has more convenient tools for tweaking the MIDI data if you want to edit it (although I don't think it has an equivalent to metatools, which can be extremely handy for this). But Finale's limitation is in the convenience of applying MIDI data rather than lack of capability of doing so.

[qccowboy]

if anyone wants an idea of what un-tweaked, direct from Finale 2006 playback gives, then listen to any of my scores (there are a few here in the forum).

All recordings of my works are direct from "publisher" scores, playing back via Robert P.'s HumanPlayback. In my opinion, Finale's playback is considerably more than ample for any serious composer.

All MIDI data is editable, btw, in Finale. I don't know if it's easier or harder than it would be in a sequencer, since I rarely bother to alter any of it. However, as a composer who likes to work from notation, Finale works perfectly fine.

As for the people griping about Finale being unstable, you need to look at what they are doing and using with their computers. A lot of the trouble is people running four or five programs simultaneously, chat clients, mail programs, external sequencers, etc... and they expect Finale to run smoothly at the same time. Most of the trouble is more directly attributable to Windows tha to Finale. I have yet to have Finale crash on me. But then, I also use Finale, and ONLY Finale, while I'm working on my music. I don't have any particular need to have yahoo chat and MSN and my mail program running at the same time.:D

[Doralin]

Expressions in Finale can include just about anything. Dynamics are expressions. Tempo markings are expressions. You could use expressions as articulations (or vice versa) if you wanted to.

I may be wrong but I couldn't set articulations to midiCC with Finale. For example, pedal mark didn't send CC#64(sustain).

I usually tweak midiCC and audio volume in detail with Cubase, because the automation function of Cubase is easy to use (e.g. copy, paste and move the midiCC between several tracks at one screen). I don't ask for too much to notaion softwares.

But, I want to edit the midiCC of pedal, staccato, marcato, legato, pizz, arco etc. with a notation software. These marks are combined with specific notes. I know HP can do them with GPO, but only with GPO. And I don't know well whether end-users can customize them easily or not.

If I can do them with Finale, I'll purchase it.:)
---------------------------------------
Tatsu Nagao
Kontakt2, Overture4, CubaseSL3,
Fender ST58-70TX, YAMAHA P-120

[Jerry W.]

Been reading this and had to chime in.
(sorry for the length)
This has been asked by SEVERAL people in SEVERAL threads.

The short answer - It really does depend upon what you are going to do with it.
The long answer is that each has its glories and each has its faults.

Finale has, as has been said several times, and it is true at least to my eyes, the BEST printed output ANYWHERE. It can create basically any style or configuration of score you can imagine.
With HP, its playback is fantastic now. BUT.....its midi editing is abismal.

Ok, that is not really fair. It is not abismal, since you CAN edit all your CC data within its "Midi" tool, BUT. it is very cumbersome and time consuming. And you Finale users will agree with me on this, I am sure.

Stabilty - never had issues with it - (and I have been using it since 1995) but there are certain quirks with certain versions that annoy me. (e.g I use 2004c - I love keyboard shortcuts. And changing from scroll view to page view is something I do regulary - but it won't work with 2004c and Mac OSX 4)

Overture has hands down the best midi CC editing of any notation software. Period. Whether or not it is stable is not something i am prepared to address, since I have only used Overture 3.6 for Mac (which is stable) - and used the Overture 4 Trial version for a few weeks. Its support for VST is the most comprehensive anywhere. I think there are some very logically laid out tools there. It is one of the easiest programs I have used. But no scroll view - after being a Finale user for so long - has been a sour spot with me.

Its printed output is decent - but not stellar.

How EASY these are will depend upon how much time you take to learn software, get used to the tools used to input notes (whatever your prefereces are) and how quickly and comfortably the software becomes a part of your workflow.

You really need to try BOTH (or as many as you can) out and decide that for yourself. All the opinions here are informative, but are quite useless in the final scheme, since each of us are unique in the way that we work on music. Oh, we might have similar tools, workflows, even habits and such, but how music comes from within us is unique to each.
I personally love Finale because I have developed my own way of using it quicklly. I lament in its shortcomings, but put up with them because how paramount it has become in its place of tools I use on a daily basis to write my music. I use Finale as a starting point. It helps me work out ideas. I usually export my Finale stuff to MIDI and edit using Tracktion or another DAW. Right now - that process works for me.

I, like many of you, are anxiously awaiting that ONE app that does it all, and Overture has that promise right now, but not there yet. If Finale redesigns their MIDI editing to match a DAW, like Overtures, then Finale would be tops - but until then, I use Finale and a DAW. That process creates the best looking PRINTED score, and creates the best SOUNDING recording of that score.

Just add this to yet another of the many opinions you have already heard.

Jerry :)

[dewdman42]

All recordings of my works are direct from "publisher" scores, playing back via Robert P.'s HumanPlayback. In my opinion, Finale's playback is considerably more than ample for any serious composer.

who is Robert P? can you please point me to a couple of these as-published finale performances which were done mostly with automatic HP performance?

[Michael_uk]

who is Robert P? can you please point me to a couple of these as-published finale performances which were done mostly with automatic HP performance?

Robert P is Robert Piéchaud who wrote the Human Playback feature in Finale.

Robert posts frequently here in the Garritan forums and has answered many questions personally on Human Playback. I have found Robert to be up front, and very helpful indeed.

Many thanks Robert. :)

[astrt4]

I may be wrong but I couldn't set articulations to midiCC with Finale. For example, pedal mark didn't send CC#64(sustain).

HP will by default send this data on controller 64 for most devices. But if you want to control it yourself, you would use expressions. Create a pedal up expression and a pedal down expression. Assign them both as note expressions (expressions in Finale are either note attached or measure attached).



But, I want to edit the midiCC of pedal, staccato, marcato, legato, pizz, arco etc. with a notation software. These marks are combined with specific notes. I know HP can do them with GPO, but only with GPO. And I don't know well whether end-users can customize them easily or not.

Some of the things you list are actually expressions in Finale. Pizzicato and arco for example. But perhaps you should ask Robert about how Finale 2007 will differ from 2006 in regards to those other elements. From what I understand, you'll be able to reprogram those things so that HP will send whatever type of MIDI message you want.

[giwro_jon]

who is Robert P? can you please point me to a couple of these as-published finale performances which were done mostly with automatic HP performance?

Go to:
http://jorwig.powweb.com/audio/qccowboy/

All of these are rendered as-is from the Finale score - I know Michel is telling the truth, since he sent me the Finale files and I rendered them for him and am hosting them. It's really quite impressive, IMHO

Enjoy:)

[Doralin]

HP will by default send this data on controller 64 for most devices. But if you want to control it yourself, you would use expressions. Create a pedal up expression and a pedal down expression. Assign them both as note expressions (expressions in Finale are either note attached or measure attached).

Some of the things you list are actually expressions in Finale. Pizzicato and arco for example. But perhaps you should ask Robert about how Finale 2007 will differ from 2006 in regards to those other elements. From what I understand, you'll be able to reprogram those things so that HP will send whatever type of MIDI message you want.

Thank you very much for taking the time out to explain this to me. I gave Finale2006 a trial and understood what you wrote. I'm going to keep on using Overture4, but I think I must keep an eye on Finale, especially on 2007. It seems to be excellent and easy to customize.
---------------------------------------
Tatsu Nagao
Kontakt2, Overture4, CubaseSL3,
Fender ST58-70TX, YAMAHA P-120

[dewdman42]

I wish Finale 2007 would add full support for ASIO soundcards though... The realtime latency while trying to use hyperscribe or just play the keyboard through a sound is less than stellar right now.

I have been giving Overture4 a run for the money lately. I must say, it has some impressive features in terms of sequencing and controlling any sample library I want. I love that, for example, I can double click on a hairpin and it pops up a little window with a CC controller curve which I can use a pencil tool to change. And I can have that CC curve applied to all hairpins in the score or all in the staff, etc.. And I can copy and paste their hairpins with the embedded controller data, etc.. Nice.

I note that I can double click on a dynamic symbol such as pp and enter the exact controller# and data value I want for that symbol.

I note that Overture imports from an XML file all the keyswitches and such from many products, including GPO..so that from within Overture I can see descriptive names for things like that and they are selectable from all the places that make sense.

I note that Overture4 supports ASIO and any VST instrument or effect I want (yes there is a way to buss all the instruments to a single ambience reverb instance).

Entry in Oveture is very easy...I like how it shows a little dotted line that shows what will be effected by a symbol such as pp...before I drop it.

On the downside, Human playback is not as automatic as I had hoped it would be. I definitely did feel that i needed to tweak and fiddle with the CC curves of hairpins and the actual dynamics values, etc....and I just barely started to scratch the surface of it really. Part of me thinks that I really only need to use a notational program for composing and printing. But for production I'm probably better off playing every part in real time by hand into Sonar tracks and producing it in that environment... With that in mind, perhaps the Finale HP is the way to go. If they would just get ASIO in there.

[danny7]

I've used both and Overture 4 is definitely better than Finale. Overture 4 is much more VST-friendly. Finale needs to streamline a lot of its features. There are way too many confusing dialogs just to get a functional pedal marking on the page! I'll still keep an eye on Finale, since I'm not a hardcore product loyalist. I'll go for whatever lets me do what I want and doesn't cost me my retirement.

[dewdman42]

I just have one wish. To include a fairly decent staff set in Sonar. That is all that it is missing!


Yea I hear ya Cantabile. If Sonar had better notation, then I would just use Sonar for everything except printing. Sonar is really where I want to be.

Thanks to everyone so far for contributing to this thread. I am going to be working on my big film scoring class project for Hummie next fall and trying to decide which notational program to spend the summer learning. At this point I actually own Finale2004, Sibelius3 and OV4. Trying to decide whether to upgrade Finale or sibelius or not. And also, adding Notion to consideration now after some very favorable comments from Hummie about it last night. I have ordered the demo. We'll see. $299 for competitive upgrade I understand.

It seems to me like there are 3 main tasks we talk about. Some people may only do 1 or 2 of these tasks, but often times we need to consider all three:

1 - composing (having notation is paramount to high level composing)

2 - producing (having full sequencer control and audio tracks here, such as sonar)

3 - Printing

From what I can tell, no one program really covers all three and in many cases they barely cover two.

My own experience with Finale has been that its super duper complicated. I am not a guru. But I know that true Finale gurus spend years getting there. I don't have years to get there (in terms of this project). Finale has so many hidden and obscure settings that a true guru can do amazing things with it. But its very difficult to figure out how to do the simplest things. I once spent several days trying to figure out how to print a blank sheet of manuscript with the line thicknesses reduced a little bit. When someone on a forum somewhere finally helped me out, it was easy to do, but it was nearly impossible to "figure out" how to do it on my own. The one and only thing that is drawing my interest in Finale is that A) it has Human playback which people say works great with GPO, but I have yet to try it out and B) if I ever am lucky enough to publish music, they will probably want Finale files submitted. The complexity scares me though.

I barely spent any time with Sibelius3 before v4 came out, which I did not upgrade yet.. Not much comment there. Seems like playback features are minimal. A lot of people that hated Finale complexity, love Sibelius. All I can say about Sibelius is MAYBE.

I have spent the past couple weeks messing around with Ov4 finally. I must say I like many things about it, though it is a litte rough around the edges. The print out is not publisher quality but good enough for the project I will be working on. It had a lot of flukey stuff happening though sometimes. I didn't like how it added rests a certain way as I was entering music...it forced me to erase them before i could enter more... Maybe I'm still learning the program. Playing midi real time was nowhere near as good as Finale gets it.

I guess one thing I liked is that I could tweak the CC values of the hairpains to make my composing-phase mockups sound a little better. I think I would still prefer to go to Sonar for doing a serious full mockup, but perhaps for the purposes of hearing my work as I am composing...Ov4 does provide a level of control over things that exceeds what I am hearing that finale provides. Or at least makes it easy to manipulate those aspects, the midi performance, more so than what Finale/Sib does, but less than Sonar.

However, Overture does not really have true automatic Human Playback, like Finale supposedly does. Ov4 also supports any VST instruments I want (though generally I use kontakt for everything which works in Finale too), and Ov4 supports ASIO soundcards for low latency. Ov4 also has an effects buss for hosting ambience or other reverbs I want. There are other cool things about the way you enter symbols. They have put some good thought into it, its just a little rough around the eges and frankly until I see the developer Don expand his business into a bigger operation, the future is uncertain. I am already up to date with this program, no additional cost. So its a bit of a contender. One major flaw for me is that it does not export MusicXML.

I am now also interested in Notion. Hummie had some good things to say about it last night. From his perspective, its not going to print as well as finale or Sibelius in terms of being able to handle all kinds of wierd situations, but probably is going to handle all of our class situations just fine. But the beauty of the program is that its a simple composing solution. You don't have to worry about VST's or keyswitches or CC#'s or anything midi at all. You just enter the notation and hear the playback and it does a decent job. In some sense, its more basic then everything else, but less to think about, focus on the music. I like that idea. It would not be satisfactory for me for doing a serious mockup I'm sure. I'd have to import the midi or musicXML into Sonar for a serious mockup. Dunno. Demo on the way...we'll see...

Anyway, thanks again for all your comments. Seems like at this point there is no clear winner...and a lot of it is definitely based on personal preference and also if you already have a lot of time invested in learning how to use one of them, there is no reason to switch.

[astrt4]

I've used both and Overture 4 is definitely better than Finale. Overture 4 is much more VST-friendly. Finale needs to streamline a lot of its features. There are way too many confusing dialogs just to get a functional pedal marking on the page! I'll still keep an eye on Finale, since I'm not a hardcore product loyalist. I'll go for whatever lets me do what I want and doesn't cost me my retirement.

A pedal marking is pretty fast in Finale. I do it from within simple entry. Hit asterisk and then p to enter the pedal, asterisk then L to enter the release.

Same shortcuts work for the articulation tool (hold the letter and click the note).

[Richard Berg]

Notating on a tablet by writing the notes in could never be as fast as the current systems employed by notation programs. Bruce, I have to guess you've never taken the time to get proficient at any of the qwerty or step-time MIDI entry systems in Finale or Sibelius.

Yes & no. Step-time MIDI entry is much faster than notating by pen/tablet/mouse when working horizontally, e.g. writing a melody. Working vertically (building chords, fleshing out an orchestration, etc.) on the other hand would be faster with the tablet, or pen & paper for that matter.

----

I disagree that Finale is tops in printing/engraving quality. Lilypond looks much nicer to my eye. Like someone said, it would be great if Sonar's staff view was more usable -- with any luck the majority of my work could be done there and exported straight to Lilypond without ever needing a "notation" program.

Problem is, notation features in sequencers aren't much better than when I started using Cakewalk in junior high (Home Studio v5). Yet if they put just a few key improvements into it, my usage of Finale would drop dramatically. The trick in software development is finding which subset of improvements could do that for a significant portion of the customer base. There may be no such thing.

[astrt4]

Yes & no. Step-time MIDI entry is much faster than notating by pen/tablet/mouse when working horizontally, e.g. writing a melody. Working vertically (building chords, fleshing out an orchestration, etc.) on the other hand would be faster with the tablet, or pen & paper for that matter.

----

I disagree that Finale is tops in printing/engraving quality. Lilypond looks much nicer to my eye. Like someone said, it would be great if Sonar's staff view was more usable -- with any luck the majority of my work could be done there and exported straight to Lilypond without ever needing a "notation" program.



Working with step-time entry with MIDI or with qwerty is faster for both vertical and horizontal entry. Writing by hand doesn't come close - it's far more strokes for each object, there's no copy and paste, etc. Entering via tablet requires far more time spent on accuracy. I would guess that entering via tablet pen could not reach 1/3 the speed of the current methods.

Lilypond makes plenty of its own mistakes, and editing takes considerably longer. There aren't any notation programs that produce anything close to publishing quality output by default. They all require an engraver to get engraver-quality output. The default output of Lilypond can look pretty terrible, just like with the others.

[Doralin]

I have spent the past couple weeks messing around with Ov4 finally. I must say I like many things about it, though it is a litte rough around the edges. The print out is not publisher quality but good enough for the project I will be working on. It had a lot of flukey stuff happening though sometimes. I didn't like how it added rests a certain way as I was entering music...it forced me to erase them before i could enter more... Maybe I'm still learning the program. Playing midi real time was nowhere near as good as Finale gets it.

F.Y.R, when doing step input with midi keyboard, Overture dosen't add rests. And when with mouse, we can replace a rest with a note by clicking almost the same position of the rest. In this way we don't need to erase rests and can get to know how many notes we can add in the measure.

Tatsu

[dewdman42]

Regarding OV4 and rests...whatever it was doing...was not intuitive..that's all I can say. But with time I'm sure I could learn how to enter things the Overture way.

Regarding Lilypond, i agree it is the best printer output of the bunch. Actually, I might use lilypond for my final printing for this project. One thing nice about both finale and Sibelius is that they both can use the Dolet plugin to output MusicXml which can then be turned into Lilypond. I'm quite impressed with the printer output from Lilypond thus far. To be honest, if Overture output MusicXML, I wouldn't even look any further..I would just use Overture for the enhanced sequencing and then Lilypond for printing. dunno. There is no clear winner here.

[dewdman42]

I just got the Notion 1.5 demo disc in the mail. 4 words:

ITS NOT THERE YET

[Leaf]

I vote for Finale. I have never used the others, and I'm still learning how to use Finale, but 'm finding it to be absolutely awesome. There is this one bug that bugs me, occasionally the instrument contol thing (whatever it is called the console thing on the left side, in studio veiw) will dissappear if I scroll too fast, and then I have to save, close, and re-open, to get them back up, but other than that everything is amazing in what you can do with this program, simply amazing. I give it 4.9 stars.

[Jerry W.]

I vote for Finale. I have never used the others, and I'm still learning how to use Finale, but 'm finding it to be absolutely awesome. There is this one bug that bugs me, occasionally the instrument contol thing (whatever it is called the console thing on the left side, in studio veiw) will dissappear if I scroll too fast, and then I have to save, close, and re-open, to get them back up, but other than that everything is amazing in what you can do with this program, simply amazing. I give it 4.9 stars.


Leaf,

You might just have to go under the "view" menu and select a different veiw than you are in. (if it is in scroll view, select page view, and then change back again.)

Just a thought.

Jerry

[Leaf]

Leaf,

You might just have to go under the "view" menu and select a different veiw than you are in. (if it is in scroll view, select page view, and then change back again.)

Just a thought.

JerryGreat idea, I will try that as soon as it does that again. Thanks.:)


edit: That works! two clicks and it's back up. Too easy, lol, someday soon i will think of doing stuf like that without having to ask for help. Thanks Jerry.

David

[danpowers]

...someday soon i will think of doing stuf like that without having to ask for help....
As they say on the Finale forum, "the first ten years are the hardest." ;)

[Jesse Hopkins]

I vote for Overture (no conflict of interest here to be sure! LOL) because it has always just made a lot more sense to me. No seriously, even though I am helping Don Williams promote the software, I got involved for my love of the product after 12 years of using it. I wrote "Rouser" in about 4 hours with Overture 4, and what you hear is straight out of the sequencer, no mixing.
http://hopkins.composerarts.com/Rouser.mp3
I was able to complete notation and the polished demo without using a separate sequencer. And if anybody wants to see the animated gif featuring some of Overture's finer attributes, just check out the top of my web page.:

http://hopkins.composerarts.com

And if you use multiple libraries, Overture just lets you do more in terms of playback settings (different for each staff).

- Jesse

PS - The mac version is just around the corner

[Hannes_F]

I have been holding back for a while. But I have to say that while I like Overture 4.0 as a product I am very dissatisfied with their support.

I've lost my Overture installation and parts of my mail inbox due to a hard disk crash and need their help to install it again. But none of my mails to the support or messages in their forum have been answered. This has kept me from writing for weeks now and I am p&%%@d ... :confused:

[Doralin]

I have been holding back for a while. But I have to say that while I like Overture 4.0 as a product I am very dissatisfied with their support.

Geniesoft is an one-man business, so, sometimes the answer from him was a fair bit late. It's certainly one of weak points of Overture. I miss Joseph who was a dedicated voluntary support staff. But, because of his being a small business, we can purchase his product at lower price than other products.

I copied the downloaded file and the order confirmation e-mail which has the serial number into a CD, and bookmarked the order status web-page from which we can re-download the installation file.

[Hannes_F]

It took about one month but now the problem is fixed. :D