so what IS the BEST midi keyboard for playing PIANO???

[wind]

I want to buy it !

THE BEST !

But first I need to know what IS the best :-)

What gives the best piano feeling, can reach from pp to ff...

is not falling apart after one week, etcetc.....

Something from from M-audio? CME ? Studiologic/Fatar , Casio, Yamaha ?

Or .. or ...... PLEASE HELP !

Thanks

[crotchet44]

Only you can answer that question - you need to go out and play them!

[Elfen]

I got a Yamaha S90es and I'm pretty happy with it. I tried the others at the store and if you are willing to pay for quality it's the way to go. Plus it's onboard piano patch "Natural Piano" is a phenomenon.

But like crotchet44 said, go try it. Best way to know if it's for you.

[Stagwall]

Is Yamaha Motif any good? I went to a store yesterday and the only keyboard with any kind of weighed keys I could find was the Yamaha Motif ES.

[Laurent]

Best keyboards actions are found in upmarket stage / home digital pianos from Yamaha / Roland / Kawai.

If you are looking for a not-so-expensive midi-only no-sound keyboard, I think Studiologic is good value for money (and better than any Maudio/CME/Casio...)

:)

[rkmusic]

Hi to everybody!
It has been a long time without posting here. I am back.

Wind,

Concerning the answer to "What is THE BEST..." I second the opinion of crotchet44. You are the person who can directly answer your question. Go and make a tour to several music shops and try the Keyb.
As a pianist I want to ask you. I suppose you to be a piano player: Do you own a real piano. If yes your piano is the best midi for you because it is a real one and you know it well! Give a look to this Site: http://www.midi9.com/index.htm
I will myself soon give to their system a try.
I have been in contact by email with a very kind person named Jack and I am sure he can give you or to any piano/sampled piano player good answer.
Remark: I have nothing to do with this business - I only give you this information from myself with no economical interest.

In the other side indeed you can find good midi keyb. My favorites are:
Kawai MP 8
New Yamaha serie CP300, 33, motif, MO8

The midi9 solution seems to be the very best solution but your midi keyb will stay at your disposal only were it is phisically located (home, studio, etc.)

When I have some news about the function of this sytem I will report somthing to you all the pianist of this Forum if you want.

Have a very good Christmas time,

[dalek3]

After trying quite a few I personally settled on the Yamaha P-250 digital piano. The touch on it is great and it has a very good piano sound to boot. I would recommend putting it on your list of midi keyboards to try out.

[Fogwall]

But first I need to know what IS the best :-)

Well, you asked for it - Yamaha GranTouch. Not cheap, not light, not new but undoubtly the best. Although sampled back in 1997, it is still very impressing to me - offering cabinet resonance, high dynamics, half-pedalling and re-pedalling. What I miss is string resonance, release samples and more sampling storage. I'm sure this would be featured in a "GT3" if Yamaha would still develop that exclusive piano series. But of course, the major reason for buying this monster piano is the authentic wooden keyboard action with double escapement, nothing beats it.

[PierreFunck]

The best MIDI controller keyboards I've ever played on are made by Doepfer:
http://www.doepfer.de

You should definitely try these out.

[jlperry]

I really enjoy the action on my Roland RD-700SX. I orginally picked it up for its intended use as a stage piano, but it's turned out to be a wonderful controller for sampled pianos.

[Fastonkeys]

Again, completely agree with this being subjective, but I given that I do my composition primarily on a Steinway D, I wanted as close to the "real thing" for the studio. I originally found the Yamaha P250 to set the bar, but recently swapped it out for the Kawai MP8. MP8 has wooden keys and weighting that is far more realistic (to me) than the P250. That said, the P250 is a great controller, so I think at the high-end, you'd be well advised to look at both. As far as piano samples go, both offer wonderful patches, though I was primarily interested in a controller and playability; I use so many different piano libraries that the on-board libraries (while convenient) were not not my primary concern.

[wind]

Thanks a lot for all your interesting responses ! :) 0-||

The reason I want to buy a new keyboard is that the one I use now , an Ensoniq TS-12 , is playing nice but it "only" has 76 keys,
and I would like 88 ;)

but what's more shocking:
After testing it with the Kontakt script for velocity-testing
( http://nilsliberg.se/ksp/scripts/scripts.html )
I discovered that the it does not send all velocities, especially MANY values are missing in the higher range !

:wow:

[studio64]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned aftertouch yet.

If you do need it, or if you think you may need it in the future, only a few 88 keyboards have it.

I use A Korg N1 88 keyboard, which has aftertouch.

The most important thing, like others have said, is play before you buy, and not just for a few minutes.

regards

[Patthoven]

so what IS the BEST midi keyboard for playing PIANO???


.... Hasn't been invented yet. They all blow!!!

I've been saerching this one out for several years as my Church is willing to get one but I just cant find anything that does it with any reasonable sense of similarity.

I don't know what the difficulty is?

We're not asking for a space shuttle here.

But I think I've tried many fom the M-Audio's to the FATARs to the Yamaha's( which are probably the least offensive.

But I'm stumped. let me know if someone finds something half way decent. I'd love to try it!

[Patthoven]

so what IS the BEST midi keyboard for playing PIANO???


.... Hasn't been invented yet. They all blow!!!

I've been searching this one out for several years as my Church is willing to get one but I just cant find anything that does it with any reasonable sense of similarity.

I don't know what the difficulty is?

We're not asking for a space shuttle here.

But I think I've tried many from the M-Audio's to the FATAR's to the Yamaha's( which are probably the least offensive).

But I'm stumped. let me know if someone finds something half way decent. I'd love to try it!

[ohernie]

The best MIDI controller keyboards I've ever played are made by Doepfer:
http://www.doepfer.de

You should definitely try these out.

Whoa! I didn't realize all those raw parts were available to me. I'm not happy with the interfaces on any current midi controllers and have wanted to build my own for a long time. Looks like I may get my chance.

BTW, the keybeds are Fatar so they would be the same as Studiologic controllers. Interesting to find out that Fatar manufactures 76 and 61 note weighted action keybeds. I wonder who they are selling them to.

Thanks for the link.

Ernie

[Pando]

From what I've tried, the high-end Roland digital pianos have really nice keyboards, with MIDI out. Unfortunately they are quite expensive (starting at about $2k for nice ones like HP-2) and usually don't have modwheels, pitch bends, or aftertouch. You can't travel with them either. But the key action is just fantastic, especially the progressive hammer-action ones, and the built-in piano sounds are not bad either.

I went to great lengths at trying many, many keyboards by visiting just about every piano and music shop in a 50 mile radius before I bought the HP-2, since having the real piano-action keys was very important to me. I can practice with headphones and it boots up instantly as well :D

[Richard Berg]

In my personal opinion, the Yamaha P-series -- and it's not close. Not surprising considering Yamaha is the only keyboard company that also makes real pianos. I got my P-90 for about $800 a couple years ago and never looked back. Occasionally I'll play the new controllers that Guitar Center stocks; never gotten even the slightest urge to switch brands.

[rkmusic]

... Not surprising considering Yamaha is the only keyboard company that also makes real pianos...

Not true: For example Kawai is another one with very good real pianos and its faboulous MP 8.

[Aaron Dirk]

Hi to everybody!
It has been a long time without posting here. I am back.

Wind,

Concerning the answer to "What is THE BEST..." I second the opinion of crotchet44. You are the person who can directly answer your question. Go and make a tour to several music shops and try the Keyb.
As a pianist I want to ask you. I suppose you to be a piano player: Do you own a real piano. If yes your piano is the best midi for you because it is a real one and you know it well! Give a look to this Site: http://www.midi9.com/index.htm
I will myself soon give to their system a try.
I have been in contact by email with a very kind person named Jack and I am sure he can give you or to any piano/sampled piano player good answer.
Remark: I have nothing to do with this business - I only give you this information from myself with no economical interest.

In the other side indeed you can find good midi keyb. My favorites are:
Kawai MP 8
New Yamaha serie CP300, 33, motif, MO8

The midi9 solution seems to be the very best solution but your midi keyb will stay at your disposal only were it is phisically located (home, studio, etc.)

When I have some news about the function of this sytem I will report somthing to you all the pianist of this Forum if you want.

Have a very good Christmas time,


Yes! Yes! Keep us posted! I have no room for a grand piano. But I have uncle who's a piano tech with shop just full junk pianos, I've been toying with the idea of taking a junk grand and removing the sound board/length and rigging up midi to the keys. It may not be very cost effective in the end, but the idea sure sounds like alot of fun

[rkmusic]

... I've been toying with the idea of taking a junk grand and removing the sound board/length and rigging up midi to the keys. It may not be very cost effective in the end, but the idea sure sounds like alot of fun

If removing the soundboard/lenght doesn´t affect the sensation of the playing itself - I mean the hammer have to hit strings, etc... - if it doesn´t affect the normal use of the operated keyboard then YES! It´s great idea. No better achievement for piano touch than a real piano (a decent one)

Maybe the best scenario for musician who are also owners of a good piano is to have such a system mounted inside it and another keyboard for gigs and maybe the sum of cost of both solution is lower than a very very good movable keyb (and the weight!). I am a fan of Kawai MP8 or Yamaha GranTouch (over 100 Kg) solutions but prepare yourself, your arms and a friend´s arms and $$, €€, money!

[Steve_Karl]

Is Yamaha Motif any good? I went to a store yesterday and the only keyboard with any kind of weighed keys I could find was the Yamaha Motif ES.

The newer Yamahas are rumored to have better action.
I currently have an S90 and it's awesome.

[Prosilicium]

Originally Posted by Stagwall
Is Yamaha Motif any good? I went to a store yesterday and the only keyboard with any kind of weighed keys I could find was the Yamaha Motif ES.


For me yamaha is not perfect ,before , in live representation , I must play 5 hours piano rock style no stop on my S90 , the key have good sensitivity but the rebound is too small , not similar to real piano , after representation 3 days of pains fingers :o . Now , i play on old sgprox , used in master keyboard ( 8 midi zone ! ) and it's ok .

[ddarwin7]

I used to use a Alesis QS8 before I got the Kawai MP9500. For midi piano, I have yet to play a keyboard better than the Kawai. Real wooden keys and a mini version of real hammer action. They do not make the MP9500 any longer, but I believe MP8 is the new replacement for it. Go try one out if you get a chance. I have tried the new Roland 700SX and the Yamaha s90 as well, which are quite good. But in my opinion the Kawai's are the best. Again it is a matter of personal taste.

Dd

[Patthoven]

If removing the soundboard/length doesn't affect the sensation of the playing itself - I mean the hammer have to hit strings, etc... - if it doesn´t affect the normal use of the operated keyboard then YES! It´s great idea. No better achievement for piano touch than a real piano (a decent one)

Maybe the best scenario for musician who are also owners of a good piano is to have such a system mounted inside it and another keyboard for gigs and maybe the sum of cost of both solution is lower than a very very good movable keyb (and the weight!). I am a fan of Kawai MP8 or Yamaha GranTouch (over 100 Kg) solutions but prepare yourself, your arms and a friend´s arms and $$, €€, money!


Wow ... what a total shock...... This is a travesty for those of us who grew up on a piano. Its going to cost $1500-2000 to get a reasonable facsimile of the board I brought up with.......... what a shame!!

Is there not anyone out there who can help the thousands of us who know how to tickle the weight and proportions of the Ivories?

I find it hard to believe. But nonetheless, this is an issue that has plagued our compatriates for almost 20 years, and the market's response to it has been .......... "well you asked for prime rib of beef,.... here's some ground chuck,... take it or leave it!.'"

Wow, what kind of response is that? Again,....we're not talking rocket science here. We're just talking graduated weighting and balance.

My god, the industry has moved into much greater measures of science, why does this "physical" equation escape them so profoundly?

For those who have $1500-2000 to get a little piano action,.... God bless,... I am not one of you,.... but sure wish I was.

How about this........ forget all of the "on board sounds" and other niceties", just give us a piano controller of truly accurate feel and the knobs and sliders to use it as a MIDI controller as well. Many will be in awe!!!!

This way, you make some money, we get a controller that allows us to play a piano and control our favorite VSTi's,.... like RMX and a number of others.

Come on Roland, Korg, Alesis, Yamaha, M-audio etc...... Step up to the plate and stake your claim for god's sake.

Puting out synth after synth with little real new advancement is an insult to your clientele who are now more interested in an instrument to "play" the synths and pianos that they've aquired over the last 10 years.

Wake up and join us!!!! The air is fresh up here!!!!

[rkmusic]

Wow ... what a total shock...... This is a travesty for those of us who grew up on a piano. Its going to cost $1500-2000 to get a reasonable facsimile of the board I brought up with.......... what a shame!!

Is there not anyone out there who can help the thousands of us who know how to tickle the weight and proportions of the Ivories?

I find it hard to believe. But nonetheless, this is an issue that has plagued our compatriates for almost 20 years, and the market's response to it has been .......... "well you asked for prime rib of beef,.... here's some ground chuck,... take it or leave it!.'"

Wow, what kind of response is that? Again,....we're not talking rocket science here. We're just talking graduated weighting and balance.

My god, the industry has moved into much greater measures of science, why does this "physical" equation escape them so profoundly?

For those who have $1500-2000 to get a little piano action,.... God bless,... I am not one of you,.... but sure wish I was.

How about this........ forget all of the "on board sounds" and other niceties", just give us a piano controller of truly accurate feel and the knobs and sliders to use it as a MIDI controller as well. Many will be in awe!!!!

This way, you make some money, we get a controller that allows us to play a piano and control our favorite VSTi's,.... like RMX and a number of others.

Come on Roland, Korg, Alesis, Yamaha, M-audio etc...... Step up to the plate and stake your claim for god's sake.

Puting out synth after synth with little real new advancement is an insult to your clientele who are now more interested in an instrument to "play" the synths and pianos that they've aquired over the last 10 years.

Wake up and join us!!!! The air is fresh up here!!!!

I aggre. You are right. Nevertheless nowadays the best midi Keyboard controllers are IMO the Yamaha serie GranTouch and Kawai MP8 (master keyboard use also with knobs, sliders, etc...). They are real and anybody can buy (not cheap).
Apart of these the best controller is your piano itself with whatever the midi-optical solution you can find in the market (cheaper - midi9, Moog, etc...)

Resume: The best piano action system is the originals (grand, upright, etc...) and it is achieved with a lot of physical parts in movement every time you stroke a key. Not so easy to reproduce with a simple mechanism IMO.

Best regards,

[wind]

Resume: The best piano action system is the originals (grand, upright, etc...) and it is achieved with a lot of physical parts in movement every time you stroke a key. Not so easy to reproduce with a simple mechanism IMO.



Yes right !
Now this key set from Fatar seems to have hammers or something like that
http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_MDF_MDS.htm

But which product actually has these keys built in?
Unfortunately fatar does not respond on my mail, maybe someone here knows?

Maybe I end up starting my own business producing a good keyboard for us piano lovers ;) Thanks for the tip, Patthoven !

[wind]

Yamaha GranTouch.
the major reason for buying this monster piano is the authentic wooden keyboard action with double escapement, nothing beats it.


What is " ( double) escapment " ?

[nikolas]

Could be mistaken but is it the action with small springs that "immitates" the behaviour of a grant piano?

I have an upright with 2R (KRAUSS magnificent one...). The idea is that the board is on an upirhgt position and thus there is no gravitaional force, while in the grant pianos the board is horizontal so gravity helps the hammer go back to their place faster. More or less in a grant piano you can repeat the same not 14 times in sec. In upright pianos it's around 8, and with the 2R it's around 11 times... :-/ This all could be BS... Not too sure...
But this is a most interesting thread.

Thanks everybody for the wonderful reads...

[Tobias Erichsen]

Yes right !
Now this key set from Fatar seems to have hammers or something like that
http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_MDF_MDS.htm

But which product actually has these keys built in?
Unfortunately fatar does not respond on my mail, maybe someone here knows?


I think the Doepfer masterkeyboards use this keybed... at least that's
the one my girlfriend got from them to support her in the construction
of her stage-piano/masterkeyboard-model (her diploma thesis as an
industrial designer, currently in the finishing phase ;-)...

Tobias

[Aaron Dirk]

Yes right !
Now this key set from Fatar seems to have hammers or something like that
http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_MDF_MDS.htm

But which product actually has these keys built in?
Unfortunately fatar does not respond on my mail, maybe someone here knows?

Maybe I end up starting my own business producing a good keyboard for us piano lovers ;) Thanks for the tip, Patthoven !


Interesting, TP/40wood has wooden keys!
http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_40WOOD.htm
I wonder if I can get them and replace the ones in my Fater SL-880?
I ruined 3 keys on mine from spilling my drink on it:o

[Aaron Dirk]

a closer look, and they look just like whats inside my SL-880.... I hope they are available to the public.

...Then again, what is a board worth without the keys? almost nothing I imagine. So it would be like buying a whole new board again.... just for 3 keys.

[Fogwall]

What is " ( double) escapment " ?

I am no piano technician but, as far as I know, the double escapement allows the grand piano to quickly repeat a note without fully releasing the key. This is possible as the hammer only falls back partially as long as the key is not fully released. The upright pianos are using a more simplified, single, escapement where the hammer always falls back to its original position.

[Richard Berg]

Every Fatar I've played has felt incredibly fake, weighted/hammer or no.

Never tried a Kawai (keyboard anyway; played zillions of their pianos, of course). I'm sure they are good.

[davecos]

Probably the Yamaha Disklavier since it's a real piano with real hammers and strings. I think they make uprights with this technology. That would be my ideal choice if I had the cash and space in my studio. I don't like electric piano action. None of the boards really get it right. Of all the one's I've used or tried I like the Roland RD300 SX the best. Nice light touch, no finger fatigue. Here's my rating from top to bottom of boards I've actually owned:

Roland RD-300SX 10/10
Yamaha P90 9/10
Yamaha Motif ES8 8.5/10
Yamaha S90 8.5/10
Yamaha P60 8/10
Korg SP-100 7/10
M-Audio Prokeys 88SX- 6/10

[S-dahl]

I think the Doepfer masterkeyboards use this keybed... at least that's


Yes, Doepfer LMK has a Fatar TP10MD inside, seems like one of the
best out there, except for the Yamaha Gran Touch of course - real
Grand action!

[jazzobizz]

I am no piano technician but, as far as I know, the double escapement allows the grand piano to quickly repeat a note without fully releasing the key. This is possible as the hammer only falls back partially as long as the key is not fully released. The upright pianos are using a more simplified, single, escapement where the hammer always falls back to its original position.

That's exactly what it is sir.....

[BernardoUzeda]

the best keys are YAMAHA S08, look no further for the best piano keys feeling

[J. Whaley]

well no one asked for my opinion, but after reading all those I feel I should give one -

I like the older MIDI controllers better. I have a Roland A-90. In my opinion it's got better action than an upright. When I was in college I would often opt for practicing on the A-90 over the school's uprights because the transition to the steinway for jury's etc was easier from the A-90 than the uprights.

I've heard awesome stuff about the Kawai and I'm certain it's worth looking at and checking out. YEARS ago we had a Kawai digital piano (1980's) and it's action was already way ahead of it's time and the competition.


Here's my BIG BEEF. In the 80's and 90's companies would make a keyboard with sounds and a decent keyboard. Now companies are making MIDI controller's only, but the keyboards suck. The M-Audio stuff is as close to tyco as anything I've ever seen. Plastic knobs, crappy plastic keys. I'm blown away that their top of the line 88 key controller sells for $1000 and is almost all plastic - not to mention feels like pure poop. One would think if a company tries to make only a screw driver, it would be a good screw driver, not a crappy one. And a company who only makes a hammer, would make it a dang good hammer. But for some reason companies (now days) who make only controllers don't know how to make a good one.... now that's ironic....

[Red_venom]

well no one asked for my opinion, but after reading all those I feel I should give one -

I like the older MIDI controllers better. I have a Roland A-90. In my opinion it's got better action than an upright. When I was in college I would often opt for practicing on the A-90 over the school's uprights because the transition to the steinway for jury's etc was easier from the A-90 than the uprights.

I've heard awesome stuff about the Kawai and I'm certain it's worth looking at and checking out. YEARS ago we had a Kawai digital piano (1980's) and it's action was already way ahead of it's time and the competition.


Here's my BIG BEEF. In the 80's and 90's companies would make a keyboard with sounds and a decent keyboard. Now companies are making MIDI controller's only, but the keyboards suck. The M-Audio stuff is as close to tyco as anything I've ever seen. Plastic knobs, crappy plastic keys. I'm blown away that their top of the line 88 key controller sells for $1000 and is almost all plastic - not to mention feels like pure poop. One would think if a company tries to make only a screw driver, it would be a good screw driver, not a crappy one. And a company who only makes a hammer, would make it a dang good hammer. But for some reason companies (now days) who make only controllers don't know how to make a good one.... now that's ironic....

To be fair, M-Audio is a successful company because they only target the "prosumer" bracket. And they don't only make midi controllers. I would imagine they only make midi controllers to offer a complete line of solutions for small/upstart home studios.

I wish this thread had a little more technical information. I dont expect a midi controller to replicate a grand piano, but I would like to know of what midi controllers are out are the best from a techincal standpoint. I think older does tend to be better though and although im not in love with the key action I have an 88key Classic Triton and it works decently, one key(C4) no longer responds correctly though so I would like to ask this question: Where can I find some info on how to clean/fix a controller? Im not all that savvy with DIY stuff myself, but I have some friends who would help me out, however I would like some knowledge before I even open it up. Would hate to have all the insides just fall out when I unscrew the major portion of the bottom or something.

[Per Lichtman]

Probably the Yamaha Disklavier since it's a real piano with real hammers and strings. I think they make uprights with this technology. That would be my ideal choice if I had the cash and space in my studio. I don't like electric piano action. None of the boards really get it right. Of all the one's I've used or tried I like the Roland RD300 SX the best. Nice light touch, no finger fatigue. Here's my rating from top to bottom of boards I've actually owned:

Roland RD-300SX 10/10
Yamaha P90 9/10
Yamaha Motif ES8 8.5/10
Yamaha S90 8.5/10
Yamaha P60 8/10
Korg SP-100 7/10
M-Audio Prokeys 88SX- 6/10

the best keys are YAMAHA S08, look no further for the best piano keys feeling

I'll chime in with my own take on this, thought I'm sure a lot of people feel this thread is already saturated with opinions. :)

The first keyboard I used with a feel I really liked was the Yamaha P60. Prior to that I'd been using unweighted or semi-weighted keyboards, none of which were full 88 key models. That was also around the same time I began having access to large variety of uprights and grands at school from Kawai, Steinway and Baldwin. Since then, I've tried a lot of other keyboards, though I've certainly missed many of the ones mentioned here. Nonetheless, I always found I preferred coming back to the P60 because it was weighted more heavily and felt more natural in my hands than the other keyboards. Specifically, I felt that it kept my hand muscles in shape in a way that served me quite well when I went back to play at a real piano in a way that few other keyboards did.

I've used the Yamaha S08 and found I far preferred the feel of the P60. This was generally the case for most keyboards coupled to multi-function synthesizers as opposed to MIDI controllers or stage piano style offerings. I also found the P60 to be at a very nice price point, costing several hundred dollars less than most of the competition. I tried out certain Studiologic offerings in the $1k (U.S.) plus range and immediately missed the P60.

The only thing I miss on the P60 are aftertouch and additional CC options, like a mod wheel or pitch bend. But that's why I keep a Behringer BCF-2000 on top of it: does all that and more and I don't have to give up the action I like. The combination of the two still cost under $1k, U.S.

[wind]

I'll chime in with my own take on this, thought I'm sure a lot of people feel this thread is already saturated with opinions. :)



Oh, no problem at all , it's all very interesting to read , the more opinions the better !
)(~ 0-||

Until now I have the yamaha cp33/p140 ( same keys!)
and the doepfer PK88 ( fatar) on my testing agenda , but more is always welcome ! :)

[PierreFunck]

BTW, the [Doepfer] keybeds are Fatar so they would be the same as Studiologic controllers. Interesting to find out that Fatar manufactures 76 and 61 note weighted action keybeds. I wonder who they are selling them to.

Both Studiologic and Doepfer build Fatar keyboards into their controllers. But it seems that the quality of the keyboards used by Doepfer is much better than the quality of the ones used by Studiologic.

I use a Studiologic myself, and I once had the opportunity to try out a Doepfer, and I can tell you that the touch of the Doepfer is A LOT better. The Doepfer was much less noisy and wobbly than my Studiologic.

[kstevege]

Don't forget the midi velocity sensitivity.

I bought a studiologic SL-1100 which was their top of the line 88 hammer weighted keyboard a few years ago. The reason I bought it is because the feel of the keys are awesome. But later on I discovered the velocity resolution was not that great in the low end (between 1 and 50) and high end (between 90 and 127).

So out of all the controller keyboards mentioned in this thread so far I think we need to clarify which ones have accurate midi velocity response as well.

[Durk]

I've got an Oberheim MC1000 88. It was just the cheapest 88 weighted key controller I could find by that time. It works for me pretty fine (after using the right velocity settings). No marks, 'cause I never REALLY tried any other weighted keyboard. Just wondering if there's anybody else who tried it and how it compares to others... (maybe it's just crap ;))

[michael88s]

Regarding the original question:

in my opinion, the Fatar Studio/Studiologic 2001 is the best controller keyboard for playing piano sounds, as far as I've found. Velocity control, a must, is easy and intuitive. This controller does a LOT more if you'd like it to. It's a totally flexible 8 zone controller woth aftertouch, etc.

I've owned three Fatar 2001's so far. At a certain age the keyboard tends to get a bit noisy. You only notice this at very low volume playing. The keyboard action is not as smooth as on a yamaha P60, which I also own, but the level of control is better than anything I've ever dealt with.

Find one of these in good shape, and you'll be a happy camper i expect...

[dewdman42]

I have a Kawai MP9000 and the action is the best I have felt in any digital piano. Wood keys, real hammers inside. It is simply great. Way too big to gig with though.

[Wafflemaster]

I would also vote for the Yamaha Disklavier GranTouch series:
http://tinyurl.com/37b97b


Real grand piano keyboard
Incorporating the peerless Yamaha grand piano keyboard and action mechanism, the DGT2A offers a solid, natural touch and expressive control far superior to that of most digital pianos. Optical key and hammer sensors capture the subtlest nuances of expression, without mechanical interference, while pedal sensors register foot control as well.


It really is nice, and I can't tell any difference in touch between it and a "real" acoustic grand piano.


If you already own an acoustic piano, another alternative would be the Moog Piano Bar:
http://www.moogmusic.com/detail.php?main_product_id=71

[rkmusic]

I have a Kawai MP9000 and the action is the best I have felt in any digital piano. Wood keys, real hammers inside. It is simply great. Way too big to gig with though.

How right you are! I agree and it´s go the same for MP9500 and new MP8.
Yes a bit heavy to transport. For gig I like the new CP300 from Yamaha.

[rkmusic]

I would also vote for the Yamaha Disklavier GranTouch series:
http://tinyurl.com/37b97b



It really is nice, and I can't tell any difference in touch between it and a "real" acoustic grand piano.


If you already own an acoustic piano, another alternative would be the Moog Piano Bar:
http://www.moogmusic.com/detail.php?main_product_id=71

These are IMO the best solutions for real piano playing and also see http://www.midi9.com/index.htm

[Suryaman]

These are IMO the best solutions for real piano playing and also see http://www.midi9.com/index.htm

Interesting this optical midi inteface for real pianos, I wonder how much it costs.

Regarding the question of the thread, I own a Kawai MP8 and I think it's the best midi controller cause the action is really close to that of a piano and you can fine tune your personal dynamic curve to fit to your touch. The wooden keys give a great piano feeling.
Last but not the least, for those who have big fingers(like me...) there's no problem cause the black keys are sufficiently
spaced out unlike yamaha P series or Roland.

[rkmusic]

Hi Suryaman,

Check also another solution by Moog called PianoBar. No installation inside the piano needed, so you can put it in whatever acoustic piano.

[obiwan]

I may be wrong, but these MIDI strips don't seem to silence the acoustic part of the piano (as does the Yamaha Silent Mechanism), so although they are capable of recording MIDI data - surely it would be fairly off-putting if you were recording a Brass or even Drum part? - See my question on another thread: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51421

[rkmusic]

I may be wrong, but these MIDI strips don't seem to silence the acoustic part of the piano (as does the Yamaha Silent Mechanism), so although they are capable of recording MIDI data - surely it would be fairly off-putting if you were recording a Brass or even Drum part? - See my question on another thread: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51421

Midi9 has an optional silent bar for mounting inside the piano, I am pretty sure. It is a sort of horizontal bar that stop the hammers just before the strings hit point and it can be engaged at any time.

[Suryaman]

Hi Suryaman,

Check also another solution by Moog called PianoBar. No installation inside the piano needed, so you can put it in whatever acoustic piano.

This system is interesting too, thank you!

[musiklov3r]

Very interesting. From two users, S-dahl and Aaron Dirk, it appears as though Fatar makes not only the action used in the Doefer keyboard, but also a wooden action that might possibly be used in the Kawai MP8, and one step up from the action of the Doepfer.

Does anyone know if Kawai uses a Fatar keybed in the MP8, specifically the TP/40 Wood?

I have an MP8, and I love the action when used to control Ivory. I did not like the action when used to control the internal piano sound. With Ivory, it is the closest experience to playing a real piano I have ever had.

I grew up with a 1920's Steinway Model D so I'm a bit picky. I previously used a Roland A90, but the action was always sluggish and the velocity curve response was poor although it was a great master keyboard controller. I auditioned the Roland RD series, the Yamaha S90 and CP series and felt that the Kawai MP8's action was head and shoulders more realistic.

One possible negative with the MP8 is that at first glance the keys feel heavy, almost too weighted. In comparison to the competition, after a few moments of auditioning the MP8 almost feels unplayable compared to the lighter actions of the competition. I felt that I might not be able to play runs as fast as I would like given the heavier action.

After thirty minutes of playing on the MP8, your muscles become adjusted to the weighting and your fingers feel as if they are playing a real piano. Going back to a competitor's keyboard at this point makes the competition feel like a plastic controller in comparison. You can really pound the MP8 and get the stabbing percussive Jazz/Blues feel of a real piano. Similarly, you can sink deep into the keybed and play classical music with real expression. My biggest complaint is the weight and dimensions of the MP8. It just isn't portable. When I gig and am forced to use an alternative, like a Roland RD, etc., I can no longer use the same playing style as a real piano. I have to regress to a plastic controller style technique and I get frustrated at the experience. The MP8 has spoiled me.

Again, this is in conjunction with Ivory and not with the internal soundset, which I do not care for at all.

At the Namm show, I was exposed to the Doepfer at the Audio Impressions demonstration room (awesome products by the way). They were kind enough to let me touch the keys a bit while they were demoing their software on a second Doepfer. I could not trigger a sound source, so I don't have a true idea of what the Doepfer is capable of, but my initial impression was one of quality, which the heaps of praise from Audio Impressions confirmed. The action felt very deep and the aftertouch seemed very functional (wouldn't it be cool to link aftertouch to a second sustain pedal for sustaining only certain chords, or an extended release envelope on a piano sample so that only that chord would have an extended sustain, or even a string patch). I digress.

I'm excited to audition a Doepfer LMK4 or LMK2 as I think they might make for an excellent portable controller. I'm trying to find on in the San Francisco Bay Area to audition. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. I've contacted the US distributor, Analogue Heaven and hope to be put in touch with a user in my area.

It seems like the MP8 might be one step superior given that it has the graded hammer action and uses wood keys. This is why I wonder if Fatar makes both keybeds and if the Doepfer will be very similar, but one step down in the line.

Can anyone shed some light?

Thanks,

Will

Quotes:

From S-dahl
Yes, Doepfer LMK has a Fatar TP10MD inside, seems like one of the
best out there, except for the Yamaha Gran Touch of course - real
Grand action!



From Aaron Dirk:

Interesting, TP/40wood has wooden keys!
http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_40WOOD.htm
I wonder if I can get them and replace the ones in my Fater SL-880?
I ruined 3 keys on mine from spilling my drink on it

[S-dahl]

The Doepfer LMK series seem very well built and many people praise their keys. The instrument has many options like advanced zone and velocity settings.

I don't know who makes the Kawai keybed.

I have owned and played several other keyboards like Yamaha P250, Roland stage piano, Studiologic VMK 188 plus and CME UF8.

Studiologic VMK 188 has a different Fatar keybed, not the same as Doepfer uses. The keys bounces after release and is not as steady as you might expect.

I returned the CME keyboard after a week

Please let me know when you have auditioned a Doefper LMK :)

/Tommy

[Aaron Dirk]

Hello,

I'm not certain if Kawai makes the keys for the MP8 or if they come from Fatar.
But they don't appear to be the same as TP/40 Wood keys.

MP8 keys
http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/images/awapro_03.jpg

TP/40 wood keys
http://www.fatar.com/particolari/TP_40_WOOD2.jpg

I haven't found which keyboards that do have TP/40 keys in them, but I assume they would be found in home type console digital pianos rather than professional stage digital pianos.

I personally don't have an opinion on Doepfers, as I have yet to see one here in the states:o But if it's the same Fatar keys as my SL-880, I see no reason to go search for one

Thanks for your thoughts on your MP8. While it is tops on my list to be my piano controller, I have yet to see one in a showroom to try out. So if I get one, I won't be able to actually test drive one before hand.

To my knowledge, the MP8(mp9000, mp9500) are the only portable stage digital pianos with wooden keys in them.

Have you looked into the MP4 as an alternative to the MP8 for travel? While it doesn't have the wooden keys, maybe the action is closer to your liking

[rkmusic]

As I said before, for me IMO the best one is Kawai MP 8 or one of these 2 retrofit system for your actual acoustic piano: Midi9 or Moog Piano Bar.

[musiklov3r]

Thanks for the clarification on the keybeds. Very helpful.

I did have a chance to audtion the MP4 and it was not an acceptable stage solution. I didn't care for the action of the keys enough to take the time to audition it with Ivory.

I'm excited to audition the Doepfer and will post my thoughts as soon as I am able.

Will

[S-dahl]

I've found two interesting reviews about the Kawai MP8 and 9500...

MP9500 (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb03/articles/kawaimp9500.asp)

MP8 (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov05/articles/kawaimp8.htm)

It seems like the keybed is made by Kawai...?

[wind]

ok , so now we now what is "the best" : the kawai MP8

but .... it is also heavy and expensive..so now I would like to know:

which one is "second best" ! ;)

so reports on doepfer and kawai MP4 are very welcome,

thx and greetings to everybody :)

[musiklov3r]

I wouldn't include the MP4 as a candidate. The action was not competitive with other offerings IMHO. Kawai does make the CAX (same action as the MP8) which has the following specs:

53 12" x 17" x 6 1/2"

66 lbs.

But again, probably too heavy. I think it will come down to the Doepfer or another manufacturer, possibly one who utilizes Fatar keybeds...


ok , so now we now what is "the best" : the kawai MP8

but .... it is also heavy and expensive..so now I would like to know:

which one is "second best" ! ;)

so reports on doepfer and kawai MP4 are very welcome,

thx and greetings to everybody :)

[Iplayjazz]

I eagerly got my hands on a MP4 yesterday. It will be going back to musiciansfriend I am afraid. I wanted to upgrade my studio controller from an Alesis QS8 which I like but never blew me away. And I was hoping to use this board as an occasional gig axe when I needed a great sounding piano.
-----1. the action is pretty good but did not blow me away either. it is not as heavy or sluggish as the QS8 can be when playing very fast but not great enough to make me pull the trigger and buy it.
-----2. Very unimpressed with the piano patches. I expected something top tier. But for gigs, running mono into an amp, I much prefer the sound of kurzweil. I did like the organ patches and the splits with bass and strings.
-----3. Still is pretty heavy for a lot of gigging.

I guess I am returning this...mostly because the action didn't sell me as enough improvement on my QS8. Especially considering onboard sounds didn't blow me away.

Just my 2 cents and I hope it can help someone else.

alan

[Mahal]

Concerning the Doepfer: I own a PK88 and a LMK4. As you might expect, I do like the action very much ;)

If you think about buying one of the Doepfer keyboards, I'd recommend not to take the LMK4. The controller unit of the LMKs has been developed some years ago and IMHO doesn't meet todays standards. Programming it is a pain, even for a computer geek like me.

But of course: The action is great :)

[Fl3ck]

I have a Roland A90 and I'm very happy with it (keys, controllers, etc.)

[Tobias Erichsen]

... I wanted to upgrade my studio controller from an Alesis QS8 which I like but never blew me away ... I guess I am returning this...mostly because the action didn't sell me as enough improvement on my QS8. Especially considering onboard sounds didn't blow me away...


Hi Alan,
I'm currently looking for a replacement of the Yamaha KX-88 for
gigging. The KX88 has really nice keys, but it is just too heavy
for constantly moving around (especially if it is placed in it's also
heavy transport case ;-)

I have thought about getting a QS8.2 (some of them still floating
around, at least used). This keyboard seems pretty light and
has nice dimensions (mod & pitch on top and not on side)...

I would probably not use the integrated sound much, so it just
comes down to a halfway decent feeling of the keys...

Best regards,
Tobias

[musiklov3r]

This is pretty much how I felt at the store...The MP4 is not an acceptable solution. Don't judge the MP8 in any way, based on the MP8, except for the internal sounds which are poor as well, but if you're like me, you are using Ivory or another soft synth and are only buying the controller for the action.

Combined with Ivory and a Muse Receptor, I get over 80 voices in Ivory with a 10 velocity level keyset, with pedal ambience, etc. Playing the piano now feels absolutely amazing. Way better than any digital piano I've ever seen.

But of course, it's not portable at over 70lbs. I'm still working on trying the Doepfer, maybe the guys at AnalogueHaven (the US distributor) will read this and make an effort to locate someone in my area to let me audition it.

-Will

I eagerly got my hands on a MP4 yesterday. It will be going back to musiciansfriend I am afraid. I wanted to upgrade my studio controller from an Alesis QS8 which I like but never blew me away. And I was hoping to use this board as an occasional gig axe when I needed a great sounding piano.
-----1. the action is pretty good but did not blow me away either. it is not as heavy or sluggish as the QS8 can be when playing very fast but not great enough to make me pull the trigger and buy it.
-----2. Very unimpressed with the piano patches. I expected something top tier. But for gigs, running mono into an amp, I much prefer the sound of kurzweil. I did like the organ patches and the splits with bass and strings.
-----3. Still is pretty heavy for a lot of gigging.

I guess I am returning this...mostly because the action didn't sell me as enough improvement on my QS8. Especially considering onboard sounds didn't blow me away.

Just my 2 cents and I hope it can help someone else.

alan

[goodloe]

I've had some time to do a little research also, and please accept this as my opinion on this touchy subject!

Let me preface that I've owned a Yamaha P-80, a Yamaha P-90, and have auditioned the Yamaha P70, S90ES, P250 (all at one time), and the Kawai CA-5, CA-7, and CA-9 (all of which have the AWA pro hammer action like the MP8 and CA-X). I've also played some of the Roland higher end digital stage pianos within the last year but dismissed them because of the action. I currently own a Casio CDP-100 which impressed me for its "bang for the buck" but I felt its action slightly inferior to the Yamaha P70 (but not $200+ inferior!)

I'm in Los Angeles, so I had the pleasure of being able to go to Doepfer's USA distributor today, Analogue Haven (http://www.analoguehaven.com) in Pomona, CA. I tried the PK88 (http://www.analoguehaven.com/doepfer/pk88/), which has the exact same action as the LMK2+ and LMK4+ (their higher-end midi controllers). The PK88 is a barebones midi device which simply is designed to have a great action. The price is $1099, the keyboard weighs approx. 45 lbs, and it is built around a heavy-duty "flight-case" style exterior that is rugged and designed for gig use. It's not designed for actual transportation a la real flight cases.

This action is wonderful. I'd consider it a rival to the Kawai AWA Pro action. For my needs, even if it is slightly inferior, this keyboard wins because it is lightweight and designed for the road. In addition, the folks at Analogue Haven are really helpful. FWIW, Lionel Richie bought a PK88 for his touring, according to the sales rep. This keyboard is only available at the Pomona store but they do mail order. If you have an excuse to visit L.A. (the weather is mine!), then check this keyboard out. I studied classical piano at Oberlin and freelance in jazz/salsa/pop styles full time.

One thing to keep in mind; it has no built-in sounds. You need a softsynth or a sound module.

My decision was easy vs the MP8, my previous finalist; I own Synthogy Ivory and want to have the option of using the keyboard on gigs. The CA-X is only available on a limited basis since Kawai has discontinued it; only remaining floor stock at their stores is for sale. So I'd rather pay $800-1000 less and get the Doepfer, which is less weight at 45 lbs vs. the 66-70 lbs for the Kawai. True, I don't get the MIDI zones and all that, but I use Logic Pro and that will do all the MIDI I need.

To sum, I now own a Doepfer. We'll see how it grows on me.

-----
Andrew Goodloe
www.goodloe.org (http://www.goodloe.org)

[bebop603]

I've got a Kawai MP9000 that I use to trigger the Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano. Excellent combination! Feels totally acoustic and I prefer the VGP out of all the sampled pianos I've tried (Akoustik, Ivory, Vintaudio C7, PMI Emperor, PMI Old Lady). Only drawback is that, while the MP9000 has an acoustic feel, there is no escapement mechanism--M8 may be different. The keys directly throw little plastic hammers that have a substantial lead weight inside. It's actually the lead that makes the MP9000 family so heavy...the keys when you take them out are about a foot long and very light!

BTW, I think Ivory and Akoustik are overated for solo playing, especially through headphones. Just too closely miked for my taste. I have a decent audio setup (Echo indigo + Sennheiser 580 headphones) so maybe I'm hearing more harshness/detail from Ivory & Akoustik than others might hear through lesser phones.

I'd have to second other peoples opinions in saying the VGP sounds just like sitting down a playing on a grand--totally beautiful tone (I use Medium Gospel (wet) with MP9000 light touch setting).

I really wish someone would start making midi controllers with the same craftmanship that has been used with electric guitars for decades. I want to see some polished solid ash bodies wrapped around one of those Fatar wooden keybeds! Not a huge body--that would be too heavy. But something cool that I'd really enjoy having on stage with me.

-Greg

[Braindrop]

After several months of trying out different keyboards, I ended up going with a Roland RD700-SX. My wife and I miss having a real piano, but don't really have the space for one at the moment. The hammer action feels great, and not too light -- the onboard soundset and expansion options were a nice bonus as well.

Honestly, the one that is going to be best for you is the one that feels best. I tried $500 controllers that sounded better than $2000 controllers, so price is not always the best indicator.

Good luck!

[Oliver Vessey]

I've got an Oberheim MC1000 88. It was just the cheapest 88 weighted key controller I could find by that time. It works for me pretty fine (after using the right velocity settings). No marks, 'cause I never REALLY tried any other weighted keyboard. Just wondering if there's anybody else who tried it and how it compares to others... (maybe it's just crap ;))
I also used one of these for a while. I've certainly played worse keyboards, but it's been in retirement since I got a Yamaha CP300, which is in a whole other league.

[goodloe]

Update from my previous report: (if anyone cares!!)

I returned the Doepfer. The first unit I got had a regulation issue regarding the velocity signals; all the black keys send velocities about 10-15 higher than the white keys. The second unit I got had two keys that seemed somewhat louder than the rest (again, two black keys). Also, the entire unit sends really hot velocities out; I had to seriously tweak Synthogy Ivory to get a more mellow sound. It felt like I was playing several dynamic levels louder than I was for anything above about pianissimo or piano.

I just got a used Kurzweil Midiboard. I had read rave reviews on the PianoWorld and MusicPlayer forums about it, and the response is indeed astounding! Mine needs a bit of regulation to even out the action, but I can handle that for what I paid for it.

Does anyone here have experience with the Roland A-80? I've read rave reviews about it as well, and would be curious to know how it compares to the Midiboard, Kawai AWA-Pro (i.e. MP8, CA-series), and some of the other actions out there.

Any takers on that question please?

Thanks
Andrew
www.goodloe.org

[S-dahl]

Update from my previous report: (if anyone cares!!)

I returned the Doepfer. The first unit I got had a regulation issue regarding the velocity signals; all the black keys send velocities about 10-15 higher than the white keys. The second unit I got had two keys that seemed somewhat louder than the rest (again, two black keys). Also, the entire unit sends really hot velocities out; I had to seriously tweak Synthogy Ivory to get a more mellow sound. It felt like I was playing several dynamic levels louder than I was for anything above about pianissimo or piano.

Thanks
Andrew
www.goodloe.org

Thanks for the update!

If you like the keyboard action why not try the Doepfer lmk series?

"32 velocity response curves"
"Adjustable velocity reduction factor for black keys"
"8 split zones"
...and much more

[goodloe]

If you like the keyboard action why not try the Doepfer lmk series?

"32 velocity response curves"
"Adjustable velocity reduction factor for black keys"
"8 split zones"
...and much more



I don't like the inconsistency. Since both PK-88's had keys that played louder than the others, I think there is some sort of quality control issue with the actions. They feel fine, but are sending different velocities.

Also, I think that paying $1500 for a midi controller is obscene. The action is not *that* good. For that I'd rather get a Kawai MP8. I shouldn't have to pay another $500 to get a velocity that resembles a grand piano.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!

Andrew

[musiklov3r]

Very interesting. Thanks for the update goodloe. I'm off to LA this weekend to pick up a car and am planning a visit to AnalogueHaven to check out the Doepfers.

I had considered having them send one up to me and paying for the shipping both ways if I decided I didn't like it, but couldn't decide between the PK88 and the lmk series (with controller functions and esoteric editing like black key sensitivity vs. white key).

You solved the problem for me. I now plan on auditioning the lmk series, with Ivory and my muse receptor, and will focus specifically on the lmk2 or lmk4.

I am excited about the Doepfers for two reasons, portability and reputation for being an excellent feeling controller. If it truly is the best portable controller, the price is not as important an issue for me. Not because I don't care about value, I'm just tired of lugging around extremely heavy controllers (75 lb MP8) or more often, using inferior action controllers that leave me frustrated with playing live compared to playing at home on the MP8. I do wish the Doepfers had usb connectivity at this pricepoint...

I hope that the LMK series will let me fix the black key issue you describe and I will report back next week after the experiment. Did you have a chance to try this at the store?

Goodloe, how did you like the feel of the keyboard otherwise? How would you compare it to the Kawai MP8, or your favorite controller action to date?

I sold my Roland A-90 when I upgraded to the MP8. I'm not familiar with the differences between the A90 and the A80, but the A90's action is heavy and sluggish. It is not responsive enough for fast playing and it is nearly impossible for fast single key repeats. The MP8, on the other hand, has the best "key refresh" of any piano controller keyboard I've played and allows for fast key repeats on par with some inferior grand pianos I've played. I think I may be in love with my MP8. The A90 was also cited by William Coakley as having inconsistent velocity response:

http://www.williamcoakley.com/articles.php?article=a90.php

I think I noticed something similar to this as I never felt I could be very expressive with the A90. Again, I'm not sure if the A80 and the A90 are in any way similar.

Thanks,

Will

If you like the keyboard action why not try the Doepfer lmk series?

"32 velocity response curves"
"Adjustable velocity reduction factor for black keys"
"8 split zones"
...and much more



I don't like the inconsistency. Since both PK-88's had keys that played louder than the others, I think there is some sort of quality control issue with the actions. They feel fine, but are sending different velocities.

Also, I think that paying $1500 for a midi controller is obscene. The action is not *that* good. For that I'd rather get a Kawai MP8. I shouldn't have to pay another $500 to get a velocity that resembles a grand piano.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!

Andrew

[goodloe]

I had considered having them send one up to me and paying for the shipping both ways if I decided I didn't like it, but couldn't decide between the PK88 and the lmk series (with controller functions and esoteric editing like black key sensitivity vs. white key).

Watch out for the 15% restocking fee. No negotiating on that condition! Also, keep in mind that while the folks at Analogue Haven are very helpful, their knowledge of keyboards and piano playing is basically 0%; they know very little about the details behind the Doepfer controllers they sell. They are into analog synths/generators and all that, so the keyboard thing is a "side business" from their perspective.


I am excited about the Doepfers for two reasons, portability and reputation for being an excellent feeling controller.
Just watch out for the consistency across the action. This one took me a few days to uncover... you really have to sit with it.

I hope that the LMK series will let me fix the black key issue you describe and I will report back next week after the experiment. Did you have a chance to try this at the store?
I did try this at the store, but missed it. Chalk it up to my excitement over finding such a portable keyboard! I don't know about the LMK series, but it seems like getting support replies from Doepfer is slow

Goodloe, how did you like the feel of the keyboard otherwise? How would you compare it to the Kawai MP8, or your favorite controller action to date?
Hmm. Well, it felt more like the MP8/CA series (I tried CA-5, 7, 9).. Not quite the same of course. It still felt somewhat synth-y, especially compared to the Kurzweil MIDIBoard I just bought used.

If you're interested, look me up when you get out here; you're more than welcome to try the MIDIboard if you're curious. Just PM me.

Thanks
Andrew

ps--Anyone else, please, advice on the A-80? action, current market value, anything?? :)

[Mahal]

I don't know about the LMK series, but it seems like getting support replies from Doepfer is slow
That's really awkward. At least here in Germany, the people at Doepfer are known for very good support.

[Steve_Karl]

Thanks a lot for all your interesting responses ! :) 0-||

The reason I want to buy a new keyboard is that the one I use now , an Ensoniq TS-12 , is playing nice but it "only" has 76 keys,
and I would like 88 ;)

but what's more shocking:
After testing it with the Kontakt script for velocity-testing
( http://nilsliberg.se/ksp/scripts/scripts.html )
I discovered that the it does not send all velocities, especially MANY values are missing in the higher range !

:wow:

If you play a Yamaha S90 or better, coming from a TS-12, you'll be in a different world.

[dewdman42]

Thanks for updating us about the PK88. I had a Roland A-90 before. It had great features for its time, but the keys were indeed sluggish and the velocity response was just all wrong. I finally read some technical article one day a few years ago about why the velocity on it was messed up and got rid of mine. I replaced it with the Kawai MP9000 which has about the best I have ever played in terms of raw realism....And personally I think that includes even comparing to many of the expensive console digital pianos. But I have not tried any of those in few years now, so maybe they have improved. But the downside of the MP9000 is that its way too big and heavy to gig with. I set it up in my home studio and love it. I even just use its own internal grand piano sound much of the time instead of hassling with something like ivory, though Ivory is clearly better. A lot of stuff is better actually. But its convenient to just turn it on and play when I want to.

You had perked my interest about the pK88 because I have been on the lookout for a portable gigging solution that has weighted keys. That one sounded hopeful, at 45 pounds. That is lighter than my Yamaha S90 even. By the way, the action on the S-90 PALES in comparison to the MP9000. Good enough for gigging though. But now I just want something that is good enough for gigging and lighter..and it doesn't have to have sounds either. I need to try out some of the Kurzweil boards floating around. They tend to be a little on the lite side in terms of weightiness, IMHO, but sometimes for a gigging board that is better...you get used to it and its easier to play things like string pads and stuff like that.

[olibats stabilo]

I`ve got a roland rd700

I think that it has great action, but the design of the modwheel is strange (as with all roland keyboards)

I`ve also got a old yamaha kx88, but I prefer the roland.

the kx88 has extra latency, it also has a will of it`s own, which is not a good thing imho

haven`t tried the kawai pianos

[Tobias Erichsen]

Hi everyone,

I just found some unconfirmed rumours on various pages that
seem to indicate, that a new Kawai MP-Series model is upcoming
at MusikMesse...

It's called MP5 is supposed to have the polyphony of the MP8,
256 different sounds, release-samples, an improved keybed,
black finish.

Here is an entry in the online-catalog of a German music-instrument-
dealer: http://www.musik-schmidt.de/osc-schmidt/catalog/kawai-mp5-p-22113.html?osCsid=b19f3b930bf79c74c7d504d1fa5c5900

Best regards,
Tobias

[Maestro-D]

So here'smy 2 cents to this never endiong debate. the Roland's/Kawias etc aren't really midi keyboards as such. To my mind they are primarily stage pianos, not master controllers. The wooden key jobs don't support channel aftertouch which is something you woulld want in any sel respecting midi controller worth its salt.

I bought a Studiologic VMK 188 plus - ordered it early January, it arrived 10 weeks later and I sent it back after one week. It has a great action - Fatar Grand touch plus more knobs, buttons, and sliders than you could shake a stick at. Plus aftertouch. So why did i send it back? Basically its all you could want from a midi controller but I realised I didn't want a midi controller - I wanted a stage piano. i just could not be arsed plugging in all these leads plus computer plus audio interface plus god knows what else. So I'm now looking at Rolands. The moral is - one day all this kit will be inside a single 88 key rig. hope its not too far off.

CD

[goodloe]

Update on my Kurzweil MIDIboard:

Sometimes it takes a bit of time to really figure a keyboard out. I'm convinced that the action is just a *bit* too light for my tastes. It makes playing on other keyboards a bit of a chore.

Don't get me wrong, I love the action. But if I go to another digital my fingers feel a bit out of shape.

I guess I'll be checking out the new Kawai MP5 when it's available. Any other suggestions?

[musiklov3r]

Any idea on when the Kawai MP5 is due out? Also, I'm checking out the Studiologic VMK188 which has the Fatar Grand Touch keybed. Anyone have any experience with this new one?

I still need to put an email into Doepfer on the issues Goodloe and I experienced with the LMK2 and PMK88.

It had an amazing action when used with Rhodes samples. A really cool although very different action with piano samples from the Kawai MP8 I am now used to. The action seems squishy so that you could really nail specific volumes with string patches or rhodes, etc., but I had a really difficult time repeating notes quickly. For instance, if you were playing three or four notes repetitively, turning the time around, it became almost impossible to play the notes after the first couple strikes. It thought the piano action would be great for slow, melodic, expressive music, but lacking for fast paced or repetitive styles.

Plus, I had the same issue as Goodloe on mismatched volumes on different keys and between the black and white keys. Very strange.

-Will



Update on my Kurzweil MIDIboard:

Sometimes it takes a bit of time to really figure a keyboard out. I'm convinced that the action is just a *bit* too light for my tastes. It makes playing on other keyboards a bit of a chore.

Don't get me wrong, I love the action. But if I go to another digital my fingers feel a bit out of shape.

I guess I'll be checking out the new Kawai MP5 when it's available. Any other suggestions?

[Tobias Erichsen]

I had the chance to do a quick "test-drive" on the MP5
at MusikMesse and it felt much nicer than the old one
in the MP4 (which is also used in the ES4). Obviously
not in the same class as the MP8 - but you save quite
some weight if you are looking for a portable controller
(and some cash also ;-)

Tobias

[goodloe]

Plus, I had the same issue as Goodloe on mismatched volumes on different keys and between the black and white keys. Very strange.

-Will
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if they put one of the ones I returned on the floor as the demo. Perhaps?

So the MP5 is better than the MP4 but not equivalent to the MP8? I was hoping it was some sort of lighter-weight approach to the MP8. Sigh...

And I was just looking at some vintage Mason & Hamlin uprights, along with a couple yamahas (U3). Hate the Yamahas, so unremarkable in their sound.

Any more suggestions?? Please??

sigh...

[Tobias Erichsen]

So the MP5 is better than the MP4 but not equivalent to the MP8? I was hoping it was some sort of lighter-weight approach to the MP8. Sigh...


Well - like always the feel of a keybed is highly depending on personal
taste. And the MP5 weighing just 20kgs (compared to the 32 of the
MP8) obviously has not the same keys as the MP8- but I still think it is
worth a try.

I'm looking for a replacement of the Yamaha KX-88 which I currently
need to carry to gigs and I want something that is easier on my back
(we don't get younger ;-), has a nicer form-factor (having the modulation
and pitch-band above the keybed) but still has quality keys...

So currently my pick would be the MP5 - but I will be waiting until it
is available in stores to give it some more testing than was possible
at MusikMesse

Tobias

[randyman]

Hi, all - this is my first post, but I've been lurking and reading for a while now...

For a number of years, I've been using a Yamaha S-80 as my piano-style MIDI controller, and a Yamaha EX5 as the organ-style controller. While the S-80 certainly did the job, I'd become increasingly dissatisfied with its feel and action. Nothing major, just the sure knowledge that all in all, it really didn't feel that much like a piano. (I'm not dissing the good ol' S-80, I'm just picky.)

So while searching the web for that perfect controller keyboard, I wound up here, and first heard about the Yamaha GranTouch.

To make a long story short, I found one - a GT-1 - and for a great price. It was brought over from Japan by the owner (the control markings are in Japanese) and the owner bought an acoustic baby grand, so she no longer needs the GranTouch. (They were asking $1,500, so I snapped it up... someone in Manhattan was asking for $6,999 for a GT-2 on eBay; they've since come down to $5,000, if you're looking! :)

The catch is that it's in Indiana, and I live in Rhode Island. The movers will be picking it up in a few days, and hold it for a few weeks until they piggyback it onto a trip to New York.

I'll have it in early June, and I *can't wait* to get my hands on it, and post my reactions. It will become the primary controller for my synths, and from everything I've heard, I'll truly have the Grail of controllers...

Thanks for all the great info I've found here, and I'll report back as soon as my new (used) baby arrives.

Randy Walters
Bristol, RI

P.S. This will be used as a studio controller; I have no intention of using the internal soundset. The once-mighty 30 meg of sample ROM is just a little underpowered, at this point! :)

[goodloe]

I've decided to sell my 1989 Kurzweil MIDIBoard now. I got an MP8 and as a full-time gigging musician I wanted something with built-in sounds and a little newer.

So... any takers on the MIDIBoard?? Here's the craigslist ad:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/msg/341511787.html

Thanks
goodloe

[musiklov3r]

I got an MP8 and as a full-time gigging musician I wanted something with built-in sounds and a little newer.
Thanks
goodloe


So what do you think of the MP8 compared to the Doepfer? Ignoring the poor balancing of the key sensitivities and the black and white key offsets (of the Doepfer, not the MP8), what do you think of the actual feel of the keyboards?

To me, the Doepfer felt amazing for Rhodes simulation or for very expressive/specific control over patches like strings, etc. The sponginess and the ability to dial in a specific velocity felt great.

The cons of the Doepfer were that it didn't feel quite like a normal piano to me, or at least not like the MP8 does. The MP8, with my eyes closed, ATC monitors, and Ivory, feels like I am playing a real piano. Or at least it's the closest simulation I've seen. The way you can hit the keys and the response of the action, the actual mechanism employed, simulates a real piano. It's hard to explain in writing, but you probably understand what I am saying. It's not perfect, but it does make it hard to go back to traditional controller keyboard action.

The Doepfer made it difficult to repeat keys, especially in five note repetetive blues phrases, like when turning around the beat, making it limited in the styles it could be used for. But yet, the sponginess was so cool.

I just picked up a demo of the Studiologic VMK-188. The midi control element is not functioning for me. The manual is horrible. Out of the box, middle C changes the selection of active logic tracks for faders rather than playing a note. It does this in all templates, even the logic EVB3. There's nothing in the manual to explain how to turn it off and there's no hard reset listed.

The keys are interesting. They have potential. Not like the Doepfer or the MP8, definitely in a lower class. But they seem superior to my old Roland A90, the current Roland controllers, and as soon as I can get the thing working with a sustain pedal, I'll report back more.

I wish they would create a portable version of the MP8!

Will

[goodloe]

So what do you think of the MP8 compared to the Doepfer? Ignoring the poor balancing of the key sensitivities and the black and white key offsets (of the Doepfer, not the MP8), what do you think of the actual feel of the keyboards?

[...]

I just picked up a demo of the Studiologic VMK-188.
The keys are interesting. They have potential.



No comparison. I wanted a realistic piano touch for practicing classical music and jazz. The MP8 is it! Unreal how responsive it is, though its repeat rate is so-so. The Doepfer had its charm, but my concerns with its inconsistency in velocities killed it for me. It just felt strange after taking it home for a couple of days; not so with the MP8. The Kurzweil MIDIBoard I had for several months also felt unrealistic, especially after extended playing; my technique got lazy since the action was so light.

I will say that you may be right on the Rhodes assessment; I was just playing on a Rhodes a few weeks ago and it is so very different! But I don't think it makes much sense to get it just for that, at least from my perspective.

I'll have to check out the VMK-188.

I use a Casio Privia for gigging out (I have been using a Casio CDP-100 but just got a used PX-300 so I can have the pro-grade line outputs). For now I'm compromising the action/feel for the 26-30 lbs of carrying weight. For live gigs this really matters! It feels pretty good until I go back to the MP8. I remember playing on a friend's Kawai MP4 back in Nov/Dec and liking that as well. I've used the P-80 and P-90 Yamahas; there's really nothing great in a light stage piano, so I decided to just go with the Casio.


Goodloe

[beatpete]

I just bought a Yamaha P70 and, considering it's 28 lbs, it's pretty good. The keyboard feels great and the velocity curves feel natural.

[jenniferhaines]

I have a Yamaha PF-500 that I love! I use it to record (in conjunction with Ivory) because it has such a nice "piano" feal to it. Great touch. I've owned this digital piano for 5 years now and not had a single problem with it. I also own a Charles R. Walter handmade upright piano and I can go back and forth between the two with ease. Hope that helps a little :)

[musiklov3r]

Yeah, I can't believe how great the MP8 is either. I wonder if the MP-9 will improve the action or just change the interface. Or if an MP-9 will even be released in the near future. It looks like the MP5, recently release, uses the same action as the MP4, but in the MP-8 styling.

I wasn't very impressed with the MP4 soundset when I played it at the local music store. But recently I tried the EP2 which is the same action but with built in speakers. Although the action was a little light and didn't feel realistic like the MP8, I actually really liked it. I'm now thinking that maybe the MP5 or a cheap MP4 might make a great gig keyboard. I just wish I could use the same feel for home and live as it is a pain to have to practice on two different actions. I can't make the switch easily as I don't play out very often. And if the MP4/5 action had just a bit more depth it would make it much easier to play expressively.

The nice thing about the MP4/5 action is that it's key repeat rate is much better than the MP8, which I agree is a bit slow and can slow you down in fast passages as well. Kind of sets a speed limit for you.

No need to bother with the VMK-188. I liked the action, but the electronic interface was horrible. Couldn't find a workaround, it is just not a completely thought out design.

Maybe if an improved action MP9 is released, the MP8 can live in the garage in it's case and be easier to cart out. Expensive but possibly worth it?


No comparison. I wanted a realistic piano touch for practicing classical music and jazz. The MP8 is it! Unreal how responsive it is, though its repeat rate is so-so. The Doepfer had its charm, but my concerns with its inconsistency in velocities killed it for me. It just felt strange after taking it home for a couple of days; not so with the MP8. The Kurzweil MIDIBoard I had for several months also felt unrealistic, especially after extended playing; my technique got lazy since the action was so light.

I will say that you may be right on the Rhodes assessment; I was just playing on a Rhodes a few weeks ago and it is so very different! But I don't think it makes much sense to get it just for that, at least from my perspective.

I'll have to check out the VMK-188.

I use a Casio Privia for gigging out (I have been using a Casio CDP-100 but just got a used PX-300 so I can have the pro-grade line outputs). For now I'm compromising the action/feel for the 26-30 lbs of carrying weight. For live gigs this really matters! It feels pretty good until I go back to the MP8. I remember playing on a friend's Kawai MP4 back in Nov/Dec and liking that as well. I've used the P-80 and P-90 Yamahas; there's really nothing great in a light stage piano, so I decided to just go with the Casio.


Goodloe

[jsaras]

Definitely NOT the Yamaha P80. No matter how hard you hit the keys the maximum MIDI velocity value that it will send via the MIDI connector is 100. This has been true for a number of Yamaha products. I even remember a third party device that someone used to market for DX7s that increased the MIDI velocity value by putting it in the MIDI cable chain.

I have yet to dial in a velocity curve with Ivory's velocity adjustments that feel good and similarly, any other external sound source that has velocity sensitivity doesn't jive well with the P80.

I wonder if this peculiarity exists with the new CP33.