New VSL Piano ... Bosendorfer

[Drew Buchan]

http://vsl.co.at/en-us/211/412/287.vsl

[Nickie Fønshauge]

Very impressive! Also very hefty. 3++MHz, 1-2 GB RAM and 55 GB(!) of samples - for one instrument. Yikes :wow:

I have been on the lookout for a really fine Bösendorfer to complement TBO/7CG and Black Grand. I guess I finally found it. Oh man, all these temptations :(

[nikolas]

It is quite impressive indeed. So now there are 2 pianos: Ivory and the new VSL one.

I already have Ivory, so I will pass on this one, for now...

But indeed 55 GB for 1 piano???? Where are we headed????

Moreover a short thought: I see that the past 5-6 years software pianos, have excelled in eveyr aspect and sound deliciously realistic. I'm under the impression though that the electrical pianos, and midi controllers, are not so advances... Regarding, touch, feel, response... Any takes on that? (<-a little off topic, but then again any VSL instrument is a state of the art product, and a beast non the less... so there's little to discuss apart from : WOW! quite impressive indeed...)

Sorry for the part-off-topic.

[mixolydian]

Very impressive! Also very hefty. 3++MHz, 1-2 GB RAM and 55 GB(!) of samples - for one instrument. Yikes :wow:


:wow: And the pros will have another dedicated computer... :D

[Jibrish]

I expected to like this, but thought it sounded kind of clipped and staccato. Almost like a player piano.

Maybe it's just a heavy-handed performance (or a score edited midi file) but I thought the end result was sort of mechanical and spliced sounding, especially when taking into account the size of this thing.

Wouldn't a more hybrid approach that puts together the processing and programming finesse of a 64MB ram-based piano, with the "streaming" capabilities of a soft-sampler, bring a better result?

I wonder if some of the sample developers have just gotten stuck on a "bigger is better" and "we don't process and model-sound, we just do samples" kind of a mind set.

But maybe that's just me.

Best.

[JamesIII]

I expected to like this, but thought it sounded kind of clipped and staccato. Almost like a player piano.

Agreed. I was wanting to like this too since VSL has a strong track record with their products. Unfortunately, I've heard better piano libraries that are much less demanding on ones computer requirements. Oh well, I guess they can't get everything right.

[Chinablu]

I don't like it.

On my audio system (Tascam monitors + M-Audio Firewire card) sounds terribly harsh, fortepiano-like here and there, and reminds me of their classical guitar (not very pleasant, to be honest.)

No polemic, indeed: I love VSL orchestra, I have Opus 1&2 and Chamber Strings, plus other VSL frills like Glass&Stones, Percussion FX etc.

But a low-cost VI Opus 3 instead of another Bosendorfer (Ivory's sounds better) would have been more appreciated, here.

[Martin Tichy]

Just one thing to put the data size into perspective:
Half of the samples represent the player's position, the other half is the audience position. 55 GB is the total of 24 bit stereo samples that only need 34.5 GB space on your hard drive.
Cheers, Martin

[Sean Beeson]

Although nice, it didn't stand out to my ears as being anything incredible. However, I guess I will just have to wait to hear some more demos as well.

[football]

Sometimes you have to get these libraries under your own fingers to decide.

Unfortunately that can be tricky to do without actual buying them.

That being said, so far I am not loving the demo song samples.

[dpasdernick]

Are we headed in the direction of 1 computer per VST? I dumped all my hardware synths to consolidate my music gear. Now it looks like I'll have a bunch of "beige boxes" hanging around instead of some sexy looking synths.

Seems to be some new approaches to VST's. Gary Garritan's sonic morphing, Synful's physical modelling and VSL's "brute force sample every articulation" method. It will be interesting to see, years from now, if we are all running a dozen 8 processor mchines, with a half a terrabyte of ram all running 3-4 terrabytes of samples or a single computer running a smaller library that uses something like physical modelling to get us all of the articulations we need.

Might be easier to just learn the darn violin after all...

;)

Darren

[Aaron Dirk]

running 3-4 terrabytes of samples

Anyone care to do the math on how much recorded time 3-4 terrabytes worth of samples at 24bit/44.1 is?
....there goes my afternoon.
But, I promise, it shall be the greatest kazoo library ever! :D
I suppose everyone would want it available for direct download too:wow:

[Daryl]

Seems to be some new approaches to VST's. Gary Garritan's sonic morphing, Synful's physical modelling and VSL's "brute force sample every articulation" method. It will be interesting to see, years from now, if we are all running a dozen 8 processor mchines, with a half a terrabyte of ram all running 3-4 terrabytes of samples or a single computer running a smaller library that uses something like physical modelling to get us all of the articulations we need.

Darren
I think that sample libraries are going to get larger and then smaller as processing takes over from "brute force". We can't be that far from the days that a computer can calculate exactly how the timbre changes during a diminuendo or crescendo, so that all one would have to do is move a fader up and down.

D

[Crystal]

Whatever technology you use, to get an exceptional sampled piano, you need an exceptional piano.

I’m not sure the piano is exceptional.

[JohnCarter]

Absolutely. I don't like bosendorfer pianos, just take a listen to the East West Bosendorfer 290 , i don't like the sound of this one too.

[JonFairhurst]

Absolutely. I don't like bosendorfer pianos, just take a listen to the East West Bosendorfer 290 , i don't like the sound of this one too.Try the Post Bos 290. I only have the demo version with GS3 (which is playable, but has fewer layers). I find it to be a very natural sounding piano to my ears. I've heard good things about the Bardstown as well.

[Nick Batzdorf]

And if the piano weren't 35GB, people would be upset that it's too small. :)

If you're going to have seven velocity layers, pedal-down samples, substitute samples when you play repeated notes, two mic positions, and 24-bit recordings, you're going to have to dedicate $20 of hard drive space to the library.

There are other libraries that aren't as computer-intensive, for example Art Vista's, the new Reason Grand... but there are many others.

[Crystal]

Just a point :

The East West is a 275 if I don’t make a mistake (I don’t own it), and the PMI a 290 as a plug in.

I personally use the PMI 290 but still in Giga format (only available on PMI’s site). I own the EW/PMI plug in too, and, don’t ask me why, I really feel a difference (I can’t stand the plug).


Anyway, about the instrument itself, I don’t know if the model maters so much. I heard one day a concert Steinway in a big theater which was absolutely... awful !

But another one in a small town which is gorgeous...

Age, tweaks, maintenance... It can make a big difference in the same series.

Horowitz was known to completely tweak his instrument. In fact there’s many room to tweak the sound of a concert piano, it’s quite scary to discover that (a tuner showed me one day).

That’s why I don’t really take care about the model. It’s not a guaranty at all, in my opinion. The only way to make a statement about a piano is... to hear it.

[stargazer]

I expected to like this, but thought it sounded kind of clipped and staccato. Almost like a player piano.

Maybe it's just a heavy-handed performance (or a score edited midi file) but I thought the end result was sort of mechanical and spliced sounding, especially when taking into account the size of this thing.

Agreed, there's something weird about the attack part of the sound, as in most other sampled libs I've heard...

[beach]

Well even if it sounds good i don't think it has something really impressive if not the amount of samples!
But one thing for which I am a little bit disappointed is the choise for the organ demos!!!!

Where is J.S. Bach?:p


Roberto

[Daryl]

But one thing for which I am a little bit disappointed is the choise for the organ demos!!!!

Where is J.S. Bach?:p


Roberto
6 feet under.

D

[S-dahl]

It sounds good but I don't know if it's impressive...

They should make a couple of demos with less reverb and
more adagio, legato/pedal playing (pp-mf)

Hm...two different articulations = 27,5 GB per group?
(still quite big)

[composernyc]

Absolutely. I don't like bosendorfer pianos, just take a listen to the East West Bosendorfer 290 , i don't like the sound of this one too.

I didn't like this one at first either, but then I explored some of the different settings for it, like the DARK REV piano, and WOW -- it knocked my socks off. It's a thick, warm, intimate-sounding piano that I just love.

Also, I still find myself going back to the Ultimate Piano Collection from East/West... the Steinway C Pedal piano is great, and this one is now in the clearance section at ~~~~~~~~~~~~.com for 19.95!

[tomhartman]

Absolutely. I don't like bosendorfer pianos, just take a listen to the East West Bosendorfer 290 , i don't like the sound of this one too.


Agreed, I dislike them a lot, the ones in Ivory included, THE REAL ones on a studio floor included as well. They always sound tinny and brittle to me.

TH

[Journeyman]

6 feet under.

D
Wouldn't he have decomposed by now? :wow:

[Daryl]

Wouldn't he have decomposed by now? :wow:
Depends on whether or not he had any implants.

D

[Mega]

Hi...thanks for posting this, Drew! I don't know about all the complaints but to each his own ears, of course. I thought the demos were quite nice. Of course, some people don't like the sound of Bosendorfers, but what to one sounds tinny and brittle can to another sound crisp and crystal clear, which is the hallmark of the Bosendorfer Imperial not to mention the thunderous bass. Which is perhaps why the Bosendorfer has often been a favorite in rock and pop music (Tori Amos, for example, favors the Bosendorfer Imperial) while classical music still seems to favor Steinways in general. I especially liked the Beethoven sonata and the Chopin waltz (which clearly showed the benefits of the repetition samples). Anyway, another welcome addition to the piano samples repertoire. It does go in the direction of the large piano sample size method. I am also interested in seeing what the other piano modeling method direction offers (see, for example, Pianoteq's offering). Thanks.

[Journeyman]

What made me buy Ivory over Acoustik was the upper octaves of the Acoustik. To my taste, the Acoustik sounded lovely, except for it sounding very brittle and unattractive in the upper octaves. VGP is not to my taste either. Personally, I'm absolutely thrilled with Ivory. To each his own...

Time to do your own research and decide what YOU like.

[tomhartman]

Hi...thanks for posting this, Drew! I don't know about all the complaints but to each his own ears, of course. I thought the demos were quite nice. Of course, some people don't like the sound of Bosendorfers, but what to one sounds tinny and brittle can to another sound crisp and crystal clear, which is the hallmark of the Bosendorfer Imperial not to mention the thunderous bass. Which is perhaps why the Bosendorfer has often been a favorite in rock and pop music (Tori Amos, for example, favors the Bosendorfer Imperial) while classical music still seems to favor Steinways in general. I especially liked the Beethoven sonata and the Chopin waltz (which clearly showed the benefits of the repetition samples). Anyway, another welcome addition to the piano samples repertoire. It does go in the direction of the large piano sample size method. I am also interested in seeing what the other piano modeling method direction offers (see, for example, Pianoteq's offering). Thanks.

Well of course like anything it's up to what you like.

For the record, I have seen/heard far more Steinways and Yamaha's on rock and pop stuff (The Beatles for instance, Steinway for the most part) and Yamaha and even Baldwin in the 70s and 80s on for many pop artists...because that's what started showing up in the major studios

....the clarity of the Bosen doesn't bother me, it's the odd kind of "I'm talking through my nose" sound that it so often shows up with in sample libraries. Most all of them have a very odd freq response curve that I just don't get...

TH

[steff3]

I think Boesendorfer is more popular in Jazz than rock btw.

And as it is an Austrian company, it might be used frequently at Vienna....

Personally, of the real ones I played I liked Bechstein the most. Somehow I never came across a Steinway which I liked (and this was the brand I was sitting infront of the most often) - I think they only sound if they are in top condition - otherwise a Steinway just does not sound.

From the demos - though they are very high velocity and staccato, I think that the sound was quite good. Most often the high mids just fall out of the sound, which was not the case. Would love to try it myself - as with pianos it is always important to me how the sound reacts to my playing ...

best

[beach]

6 feet under.

D

I think you wanted to say up!!!*():wow:


Roberto

[Mega]

For the record, I have seen/heard far more Steinways and Yamaha's on rock and pop stuff (The Beatles for instance, Steinway for the most part) and Yamaha and even Baldwin in the 70s and 80s on for many pop artists...because that's what started showing up in the major studios

TH

Hi...yes, I didn't mean that Bosendorfers were the most common for rock and pop, just that many find them quite well suited for that, as well as jazz. Although the great, classical musical minded comedian Victor Borge also used a Bosendorfer :) Steinways on the other hand are quite versatile and are used for all kinds of music, although I think they still dominate the classical music scene. And Yamaha C7s seem to be made to cut through a rock music mix. My current favorite piano is the Fazioli which is just so silky and smooth, that is why I am also very pleased about Ivory's Italian Grand.

[Mega]

From the demos - though they are very high velocity and staccato, I think that the sound was quite good. Most often the high mids just fall out of the sound, which was not the case. Would love to try it myself - as with pianos it is always important to me how the sound reacts to my playing ...

Hi...I agree that there should be more variety in the demos, with more soft pp playing and more smooth legato playing to demonstrate the different capabilities of this new piano sample. Again, I did like the Chopin waltz which demonstrated the repetition samples.

[Crystal]

I listened again the demos, and well, I hate to say this but I really don’t hear a concert piano.

What a pity, cause the ‘Repetition Performances’ is really an exiting innovation which is cruelly missing in actual libraries.

But gee... I just find the sound... bad. Independently from all taste considerations.

I have to say (don’t throw stones on my head) that, It just sounds synthy, specially in the hi range. Synty, and not homogeneous, which is repulsive too me, for a concert piano.


I’m not sure a good digital Roland or Yamaha would make a big difference.

(No stones, please...)


I’m really disappointed. I don’t expect that from VSL



But I read : ‘we have developed our first sampled grand piano’

It means it won’t be the last.

I hope.

[nikolas]

Maybe the next will be around 200 GB? who knows... ;)

I didn't mind the sound really... (I've posted again... but now it's a more thorough post...), and I didn't think it was synthy exactly...

It did remind me of my old piano (an amazing Krauss piano of the back 80s with double repetition... an upright one)... It's sharp and lovely, with deep medium pitches, and dark low ones...

Steinway was taken by Gary, so VSL hd to chose between the rest of the pianos :D. Honeslty I just suspect that this is what happened! Not everybody can have the "approved" signature of a piano manufacturer... ;)

demos will come later on, I'm sure... Even Beach will be satisfied with a Bach rendering (while I honetly don't see why one should judge a piano over Bach, since pianos were not invented at the time... but anyways... I really see his point... to more demos)...

Let's not be early to judge the piano just yet...

[Crystal]

I’m not sure demos are in question, unfortunately. Of course I wait more of them like you, but I’m pessimistic.

Look for example the Grande Polonaise op53, at 5 minutes 15 sec (slow part).The melody...


Come on.


It’s just horrible...


I know a Korg New SG1D from 80’s which sounds better than that !


No, there really is a problem.

[Chinablu]

Look for example the Grande Polonaise op53, at 5 minutes 15 sec (slow part)
The melody...
Come on.
It’s just horrible...

I'm listening the Polonaise right now through my AKG K240 headphones.

A very strange kind of piano, indeed.

[alprazolam]

Sorry, for me VSL Bose sound a little bit "plastic". Anyway is hard to judge
because until not played directly. In any case personally I would prefer to use an other plugin since the V.I. engine is heavy and occupies resources also not loading samples......:)

[Chinablu]

Sorry, for me VSL Bose sound a little bit "plastic"

Let's be honest: in the demos, at least, it sounds terrible.

In Italy we say: Non tutte le ciambelle riescono col buco.

In English it could be translated as: Not everything turns out as it should.

[beach]

demos will come later on, I'm sure... Even Beach will be satisfied with a Bach rendering (while I honetly don't see why one should judge a piano over Bach, since pianos were not invented at the time... but anyways... I really see his point... to more demos)...

Let's not be early to judge the piano just yet...

nikolas Beach will be satisfied with an ORGAN demo of Bach music!!! You probably misunderstood me!~|

best,
Roberto

[fahl5]

Steinway was taken by Gary, so VSL hd to chose between the rest of the pianos :D. Honeslty I just suspect that this is what happened! Not everybody can have the "approved" signature of a piano manufacturer... ;)

Presumably the "Vienna Symphonic Library"-philosophy has a certain penchant to traditional austrian high quality products (as far as available).
In respect to Grand Pianos this is Boesendorfer.

Perhaps we better wait how this Boesendorfer sounds together with the Vienna Konzerthaus Conv.Reverb (MIR) to judge the original viennese Sound.
Steffen

[Dietz]

nikolas Beach will be satisfied with an ORGAN demo of Bach music!!! You probably misunderstood me!~|

best,
Roberto
Here you go:

http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=13&DemoId=4963

[karvasika]

54GB?!!!!!

That's pure madness!! I mean.. they mention it on the site as if it was a good thing!!! Like some megahertz talk. "Our new processor is 12095890348 MHz!!!" -> "Our new sampled piano is 5023984 TB."

Honestly, I would never buy something like that. I'm convinced that morphing technology with modelling gives us much better results and especially much better instrument as whole, since it should be playable too. Hello?

I remember having a PC 286 with 20MB hard disk space with Windows 3.11 taking over 10 megs. :S I could've never become a musician with it. :)

[Aaron Dirk]

Being how I grew up worshipping the music of Rachmaninoff, I happen to love the sound of Bosendorfers. Most of his recorded works I have were done on a Bosendorfer. This definitely sounds like a Bosendorfer to me. I thought it sounded really great! I guess if the Bosendorfer sound isn't your thing, then it just isn't your thing.

Being VSL's flag ship is a 550gb orchestra, why would anyone be shocked that this is 55gb? Personally, I would been shocked if they came out with a 55mb piano~|


Anyways, just my 2 cents, if I'm aloud to give it:o

[nikolas]

The thing is that it's...just a piano. Same with Ivory (but at least you could install one of the three and save your self a hard disk... :D)

Well times are changing. Considering that in a little while (read 3-4 years maybe), computers will be able to handle 128-256 GB of RAM, then we will be loading the whole of these pianos, and half the VSL library, without DFD... :D

[Jibrish]

...Being VSL's flag ship is a 550gb orchestra, why would anyone be shocked that this is 55gb? Personally, I would been shocked if they came out with a 55mb pianoI like a Bosendorfer as well... and there's no shock at the size. Just surprised that given it's size, it wasn't smoother and more natural sounding.

To me it's a problem with sampled pianos in general, and the surprise is just that even at this scale the stitches in our dear Mr. Frankenstein's beast (if you will)... can still be seen.

This library is more than 800 times the memory size of my GEM Pro2 but it sounds like most sampled grands I have... and I still rough everything in with the Pro2. The Pro2 doesn't sound more real in tone, to be sure, but the performance is far more liquid and natural.

So I think that what is needed in virtual pianos is not more size, but better processing, and a kind of a move away from the more purist idea that it is better to have a ton of raw samples than it is to have a more hybrid product that uses sample process and modeling, morphing (and whatever it takes) to get a more seamless performance.

Either way, no harm meant. Just offering up an honest reaction for whatever that's worth.

Best.

[spectrum]

Here you go:

http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=13&DemoId=4963

Bit OT, but I think that the Organ demo is pretty awesome sounding. :-)

Is all the ambience in the demo coming from the library? Or is additional ambience added?

[Dietz]

Thanks for the flowers, Eric :-)

The reverb you hear in Guy's "Toccata" comes from AltiVerb 5, as he told us - in addition to the dedicated release-samples of each note. The actual reverb of the Vienna Konzerthaus' Great Hall is much shorter (about 1.6 seconds).

The funny thing is: As soon as you switch off the releases completely, you get the impression of a bone-dry studio-organ, as there is nothing in the continuous tone of a flute (once it is playing) that "triggers" the room again. IOW - you can choose the location you want to put this 10x20 meters instrument into.

... maybe we should open another thread for keeping this one tidy ... ;-)

[Chinablu]

This definitely sounds like a Bosendorfer to me.

Could you indicate a Rachmaninoff's recording sounding like the VSL piano?

[Mega]

54GB?!!!!!

That's pure madness!! I mean.. they mention it on the site as if it was a good thing!!!

Hi...I think a lot of the size comes because they sampled from two different perspectives, player and audience, and also there are 5 repetition samples to handle repeated notes. I think both features are worthwhile offerings, with the repetition samples being quite innovative and welcome (at least for piano samples, other sampled instruments have been using this technique for a while now).

[matto]

Personally I prefer (real) Boesendorfers over Steinways by a mile, but judging by the demos...this one's not doing it for me.
IMHO Post's Emperor is far better; to me that's the best Boesendorfer sample currently available.

matto

[Aaron Dirk]

Could you indicate a Rachmaninoff's recording sounding like the VSL piano?

:confused: Huh? for real? ....ok

Disclaimer: I don't work for VSL or have any association with VSL. This is just my own personal opinion


Lets see, without actually A & B recordings, and off the top of my head.

I have a bunch of recordings of Vladimir Ashkenazy playing Rachmaninoff on a Bosendorfer (a box set actually)

Rachmaninoff - A Window In Time (both cd's) done with a Bosendorfer

David Helfgott - :D moaning and all, with a Bosendorfer

I could go on and on

The VSL Bosendorfer sound is within the same ballpark as these. I'm sorry but I happen to like what I've heard. It sounds like a Bosendorfer. But hey, if you want to really get technical about it, every sampled piano fails to compare to the real thing, but thats not why I have a hard drive full of pianos.

I know I have a CD somewhere of the Polonaise played on a Bosendorfer, it would be an interesting comparison.

[Crystal]

About size :

I’m not sure what technology is in use to sample pianos, but I can’t imagine layers are played live, it’s probably a robot.

We won’t have that kind of industrial secrets here (or anywhere, anyway), but I’m not sure it’s a big deal to accumulate samples with a piano, so, why not.

And again, the ‘Repetition Performances’ is a major innovation. Cause, it doesn’t generally appears in demos, but a sampled piano always begins to sound fake with repeated notes or chords at same levels, when a single sample is in use, particularly with staccato notes.

I suffer a lot of that, personally.

So that’s why we should strongly encourage VSL in that way, IMHO.

(Plus, sampling is a low CPU solution. It maters when we don’t like to network, as myself, for productivity reasons.)



But, I seriously think that good concert pianos are really rare, in fact.

Prospections to find the winner is the first big investment that seems to miss cruelly for that first VSL shot.


This company is magic, for Symphonic lovers. We can wait really more than that.

[Mega]

Rachmaninoff - A Window In Time (both cd's) done with a Bosendorfer


Personally I prefer (real) Boesendorfers over Steinways by a mile, but judging by the demos...this one's not doing it for me.
IMHO Post's Emperor is far better; to me that's the best Boesendorfer sample currently available.

matto

Hi...I have that Rachmaninoff Window in Time CD. It is simply awesome! It actually uses piano rolls that Rachmaninoff (who was, in addition to being a wonderful composer, a superb pianist that made the most difficult passages seem effortless) himself made and then, to make a modern recording, processed on a Bosendorfer 290SE reproducing piano with a mechanism by Wayne Stahnke. This is the same kind of model used in Post's Emperor piano sample, which also ingeniously uses the Stahnke mechanism to get multiple and very accurate velocity layers. And I agree that the Emperor piano is one of the best sampled Bosendorfer out there...it really captures that nice crisp Bosendorfer sound. Although it would be nice to actually have the VSL Bosendorfer under my fingers like I do the Emperor to truly compare, based on the demos alone I also tend to think the Emperor sounds more natural. But I again applaud VSL for bringing repetition samples to a piano sample library.

P.S. Now will someone give me a star in this forum! :D

[alanb]

And I agree that the Emperor piano is one of the best sampled Bosendorfer out there...it really captures that nice crisp Bosendorfer sound.
What distinguishes the PMI Emperor from the PMI Grandioso Bösendorfer, both in terms of sound and library presentation (velocity layers, bit depth, etc.)?

[beach]

about the organ... I have to say that the sound in wonderful!!!!
So Congrats on the Bach piece!:p even if in terms of interpretation
Helmut Walcha remains the untouchable!!!!

Anyways congrats to Vienna for the organ!!!
I look forward to hear more demos!!

All the best,
Roberto

[Nick Batzdorf]

maybe we should open another thread for keeping this one tidy

This is tidy?!

:D

[Mega]

What distinguishes the PMI Emperor from the PMI Grandioso Bösendorfer, both in terms of sound and library presentation (velocity layers, bit depth, etc.)?

Hi...that is a good question. Both Post Bosendorfers are very nice offerings but quite different beasts depending on your uses. The Grandioso I believe was recorded in the audience perspective while the Emperor in the player perspective. The Grandioso has less velocity layers than the Emperor (which uses the special Stahnke mechanism as I mentioned earlier). The Grandioso has both wet and dry samples while the Emperor only has dry samples. I wish the Grandioso had much more dry samples (more velocities, sustain pedal down) than it has since I prefer them to the wet samples, but some people like JohnGrant really appreciate the natural reverb and smoothness of the wet samples. The Grandioso upper range is absolutely sparkling and it screams Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto. The Emperor is a more balanced piano overall in my opinion, but as I said both are quite nice pianos and I would recommend getting them both if you can. The VSL Bosendorfer I am still evaluating and contemplating :)

[The Sinner]

quite poor demos, sounds nothing like a real player

[matto]

Hi...that is a good question. Both Post Bosendorfers are very nice offerings but quite different beasts depending on your uses. The Grandioso I believe was recorded in the audience perspective while the Emperor in the player perspective. The Grandioso has less velocity layers than the Emperor (which uses the special Stahnke mechanism as I mentioned earlier). The Grandioso has both wet and dry samples while the Emperor only has dry samples. I wish the Grandioso had much more dry samples (more velocities, sustain pedal up) than it has since I prefer them to the wet samples, but some people like JohnGrant really appreciate the natural reverb and smoothness of the wet samples. The Grandioso upper range is absolutely sparkling and it screams Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto. The Emperor is a more balanced piano overall in my opinion, but as I said both are quite nice pianos and I would recommend getting them both if you can. The VSL Bosendorfer I am still evaluating and contemplating :)
Yes, the Emperor has 12 recorded velocity layers for both pedal up and pedal down, so it's up there with the more extensively sampled pianos velocity wise. Grandioso has fewer although I can't remember exactly how many.
Emperor has only one "close-ish" perspective, Grandioso has both close and ambient.

To me the Emperor just has among the best basic sounds of any sampled pianos I own or have tried, it's crystal clear without being harsh or thin, full but without a hint of boxiness, with a perfectly chosen micing distance to allow the sound to bloom, and enough velocity layers to make for an expressive playing experience. It's an extremely versatile sound which works in a wide variety of styles and situations.
The Grandioso is not quite as well balanced IMHO and for me there are not enough velocity layers either...

[Crystal]

What distinguishes the PMI Emperor from the PMI Grandioso Bösendorfer, both in terms of sound and library presentation (velocity layers, bit depth, etc.)?


Be careful with Grandiosos versions. You won’t have same patches and same velocity curves with the Kontakt player or Giga versions.

In fact, the Grandioso is 16 recorded layers. (« Over 2 GB of samples, up to 16 recorded layers of velocity, separate sustain pedal up and down samples, multiple release samples... separate "dry" and "wet" samples that can be mixed for ultimate ambience control. »)

I always use the wet 16- layers+RS patch.

(About velocity curves : http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43776&highlight=velocity+curve+kontakt )


I don’t own the Emprore, but here is a Grand Piano (the official demo) :
http://www.postpiano.com/products/demos/emp/new%20GS3%20demos/EMP_GS3_Images_NEW.mp3


Those two pianos are night and days with the VSL one.

[Joanne Babunovic]

Seems to be some new approaches to VST's. Gary Garritan's sonic morphing, Synful's physical modelling and VSL's "brute force sample every articulation" method. It will be interesting to see, years from now, if we are all running a dozen 8 processor mchines, with a half a terrabyte of ram all running 3-4 terrabytes of samples or a single computer running a smaller library that uses something like physical modelling to get us all of the articulations we need.

Might be easier to just learn the darn violin after all...

;)

Darren

Hi Darren,

Appreciated your cliff notes summary of our choices. VSL, brute force - great analogy.

I have my grandmother's violin , which I use to play in high school orchestra. Just a few days ago, I tightened up the bow and took a shot. It was so bad, I put it "the instrument" back in the case with the same type of body language and handling procedures they use for hazardous material :) I don't think there is any other instrument that is so unforgiving.

Joanne

[Aaron Dirk]

The Emperor has 16 velocity layers (I think Old Lady has 12) I think it's very nice, It's also my noisiest piano, which isn't too bad, until you keep hearing the same noise over and over. But overall I do really like it.

The Grandioso, while it has 16 programmed velocity layers, it is actually 5 recorded velocity layers. I really like the sound of both wet and dry, The wet is really nice out of the box. I wish it had more softer(ppp) samples with it though.

The VSL has 7x5 velocities, so it's more like having 35 velocities, and from the huge size, I bet it's every key too. Being it's from VSL, I imagine you are going to have to tailor the sound to get what you want with verb. It's not like they are known for out of the box type products.... unless of course that's what you want to do

[matto]

In fact, the Grandioso is 16 recorded layers.
Well yes...sort of...it's 16 layers total...I believe it's 10up/6down if I remember correctly, or 8/8. Emperor is 12/12, so I guess one could call that 24 layers of recorded velocities.
There may be *presets* in Grandioso that have more than 8-10 velocity layers each, but those were made by duplicating some of the recorded layers.
(I got this info from the "comparison chart" off Post's website, but I can't find that chart anymore since he changed his website... :confused: )

Those two pianos are night and days with the VSL one.
That's my feeling as well, at least going by the demos...then again I always found the Ivory demos rather underwhelming, and everybody seems to love playing that one. So I guess sometimes the demos don't tell the whole story...

[matto]

The Emperor has 16 velocity layers (I think Old Lady has 12) I think it's very nice, It's also my noisiest piano, which isn't too bad, until you keep hearing the same noise over and over. But overall I do really like it.

According to Post the Emperor is 12up/12down, the old Lady 10up/10down *recorded* velocity layers.
I agree that the Emperor is a bit noisy on the lowest velocity layers, although it's never been a problem for me in context of a musical piece (even solo). Besides the background "noise" mostly consists of rather pleasant bird songs... :D :|:.

[Aaron Dirk]

ahhhh, I was thinking it was 16 and 12.... you're right it is 12 and 10. I like them both anyways:D

[Crystal]

I’ve just check the Grandioso « wet B290 16-Layers extra-release » (and not +rs...) patch in the GS Editor, and what I see is 12 layers with only 6 waves... and no pedal dimention... ...I give up.

[steff3]

If I look at the picture from the newsletter it seems they sampled the Boesendorfer without the top/wing - however this is called in English ...

This seems very strange - no?

best

[matto]

ahhhh, I was thinking it was 16 and 12.... you're right it is 12 and 10. I like them both anyways:D

I’ve just check the Grandioso « wet B290 16-Layers extra-release » (and not +rs...) patch in the GS Editor, and what I see is 12 layers with only 6 waves... and no pedal dimention... ...I give up.

Well ultimately it doesn't matter...what counts is what it sounds like and how it feels...:)

matto

[steff3]

btw, I quite like the new demos (Debussy and another Chopin I think)

they are much softer etc...

[Mega]

In fact, the Grandioso is 16 recorded layers.

Hi...actually as has been noted above, a lot of these velocity layers in the Post pianos are just filtered ones from a smaller pool of recorded samples with a smaller number of velocity layers. And the dry samples of the Grandioso are even less than the wet samples...just 5 recorded velocity layers. Since I personally prefer them to the wet samples, if the dry samples just came with the same number of actual recorded velocity layers and with both sustain pedal up and down like the wet samples, I would appreciate this nice sampled piano even more. But still overall both Post Bosendorfers are quite musical and enjoyable to play, with the different characteristics I mentioned in my earlier post. Now it is off to check out the new softer VSL Bosendorfer demos just mentioned...thanks :)

[Mega]

btw, I quite like the new demos (Debussy and another Chopin I think)

they are much softer etc...

Hi...I agree the new Debussy Claire de Lune and Chopin Nocturne demos with the slower, softer, and more legato playing are quite nice. They show that even with "only" 7 velocity layers, this piano is quite smooth and expressive. So the VSL Bosendorfer is definately worthy of consideration :)

[Crystal]

Well.

Don’t know.

Of course soft layers are better. Debussy doesn’t sound so bad.

But for my taste, there really is a problem in the mezzo / forte high range. It sounds like a Kawai. See the melody in the Nocturne...

I can’t suspect the technology or demos from VSL.


I just don’t like the piano itself.

I hope it won’t be the last from VSL.

[Endorf]

Hello!
I practise piano with Sampletekk TBO and Black Grand. Only with the 31 dynamic layers from the TBO I can really form acute musical phrases! The 16 layers from the BG are to less.

When I hear the demos from the Boesendorfer it seems, that two marginal differ loudness of the same note [or how could i explain this better, in english?] sounds equal - because they are using the same overtone spectrum. Only 7 velocity-layers are really to less!
I'm disappointed, thet VSL doesn't yose the 54GB (27GB for one perspective?) for more velocity layers. The TBO has only 13GB...

Endorf

[Mega]

Well.

Don’t know.

Of course soft layers are better. Debussy doesn’t sound so bad.

But for my taste, there really is a problem in the mezzo / forte high range. It sounds like a Kawai. See the melody in the Nocturne...

I can’t suspect the technology or demos from VSL.


I just don’t like the piano itself.

I hope it won’t be the last from VSL.

Hi...I agree that I prefer either the very soft notes or very loud notes while the medium notes may sound a bit nasal (for example the places you noted earlier in the Polonaise)...of course that is a subjective evaluation that others may find different. I find that the demos show that the piano can offer a nice touch sometimes.

[Mega]

Only 7 velocity-layers are really to less!
I'm disappointed, thet VSL doesn't yose the 54GB (27GB for one perspective?) for more velocity layers.

Endorf

Hi...I think a lot of the size also goes to the repetition samples which I think is a very nice and unique feature (at least for piano samples). But maybe you are right, 3 or 4 repetition samples with more velocity layers instead of 5 repetition samples might have been another possible option.

[Worra]

Hello!
I practise piano with Sampletekk TBO and Black Grand. Only with the 31 dynamic layers from the TBO I can really form acute musical phrases! The 16 layers from the BG are to less.

When I hear the demos from the Boesendorfer it seems, that two marginal differ loudness of the same note [or how could i explain this better, in english?] sounds equal - because they are using the same overtone spectrum. Only 7 velocity-layers are really to less!
I'm disappointed, thet VSL doesn't yose the 54GB (27GB for one perspective?) for more velocity layers. The TBO has only 13GB...

Endorf

Cool! I never thought that anyone would say that TBO has only 13GB...:D
Anyway, glad that you like the pianos.
I guess that all producers has their own standard for making sampled pianos and I'm sure that VSL's standards are very, very high.
Personally, I think that it's the many velocity samples that makes a sampled piano playable since a piano is such a dynamic instrument.
I guess I still can call TBO and 7CG for "the largest sampled pianos" when it comes to numbers om velocity layers/samples....:)

[xav93]

About repetition feature, that's quite interesting to avoid as many layers than in TBO, because the chance to play exactly the same velocity is quite low with TBO. But with the "only" 7 layers of this VSL piano, repetition feature makes sense. Sampling is easier : selecting the samples following right velocity seems easier. Imagine the accuracy needed in sampling to recreate 31 layers.
I'm not pro or cons repetition feature. I have an idea to manage correctly the 31 TBO layers to make a repetitive tool too. 7 layers too, with 3 or 4 repetitive samples with crossmapping of the velocity transitions.

Worra, did you finally test the nki I send?

[kotori]

Since TBO has 31 velocity layers wouldn't it be possible to turn this instrument into a 16 layer one with 2 repetitions per note? After all, the difference between a pair of adjacent layers shouldn't be too big so alternating between the layers might be a reasonable approximation of repetition samples. The volume response for each pair of layers would of course have to be set to be the same for both layers. It shouldn't be very hard to write a script which does this automatically and provides independant repetitions for each note.

[Aaron Dirk]

I had made an 8 layer-4RR of Seven Seas(even though there is only 31 layers, the ppp RR layers goes 1-2-3-2), because my sl-880 didn't have the velocity response to cover all of it's 31 layers, some layers weren't activating. Because the samples a normalized, there isn't a volume issue between the RR layers. And it plays very smoothly. It works very nice for playing trills.