Decent piano sound? PLEASE HELP!!

[Phil B]

Hi

I'm very new to this board and to using software instruments, so would appreciate some basic advice...

I've just bought Colossus to use as a plug-in in Logic Express. My first problem is that some of the sounds (in particular the 2 GB piano) have some crackles and pops, and generally sound very uneven. I've installed DFD, but the problem is still there. I've tried changing the 'expert settings' in Colossus, but to little effect - I'm not really sure what I'm doing; is there a trick to doing that? Are there any other settings I could try to make the sound better?

My second problem is perhaps related to the first - ignoring the crackles & pops, the piano sounds in Colossus (again, especially the 2 GB piano, but also the rest of them to some extent) are AWFUL - the tones are unreliable, very fake sounding, and the Fazioli sounds extremely dull and muffled. I have very little experience of what sort of quality to expect from this software, but I can't imagine anyone being happy with what I'm hearing (espcially as I have read many excellent reviews). I intend to use the piano sounds mostly for pop styles, and was hoping for a clear and crisp sound. If there is no problem with my settings (and this is actually how the piano sounds are supposed to play - hopefully this is not the case...), can anyone recommend any adjustments I can make to the sound (either using the Kompakt sound adjusters, or using one of the equaliser plug-ins in Logic Express)? I'm a bit lost as to what I should be adjusting and to what extent.

Finally, would Akoustik or Synthogy Ivory (or any other software) get me a better (and clearer) piano sound than Colossus?

Any opinions/advice you could offer would be very much appreciated!

Thank you :confused:

iMac G5, 1.5GB Ram, 1.9GHz

[Nick Harvey]

Hi Phil.

Regarding your crackles and pops it sounds as if it may well be a latency issue.

Go to 'Audio Hardware & Drivers' (in the 'Audio' pull down menu at the top of the screen) and make the 'I/O Buffer Size' larger. If it's on 32 change it to 64. If it's on 64 change it to 128, etc, until your problem's fixed.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers,

Nick

[Bruce A. Richardson]

what genre of music?

[matto]

The piano sounds in Colossus (again, especially the 2 GB piano, but also the rest of them to some extent) are AWFUL - the tones are unreliable, very fake sounding, and the Fazioli sounds extremely dull and muffled.
Phil.. hmm I don't have Colossus so I can't say anything about the quality of its pianos but I have to say I'd be very surprised if they were "awful". However one man's "dull and muffled" can be another man's "warm and intimate", so one piano sample definitely doesn't fit all styles and applications...
I intend to use the piano sounds mostly for pop styles, and was hoping for a clear and crisp sound. If there is no problem with my settings (and this is actually how the piano sounds are supposed to play - hopefully this is not the case...), can anyone recommend any adjustments I can make to the sound (either using the Kompakt sound adjusters, or using one of the equaliser plug-ins in Logic Express)? I'm a bit lost as to what I should be adjusting and to what extent.
Finally, would Akoustik or Synthogy Ivory (or any other software) get me a better (and clearer) piano sound than Colossus?
If you're looking for a really crisp and glassy pop/rock piano that can cut thru any mix, nothing beats Sampletekk's "White Grand", IMHO: http://www.sampletekk.com/products.php?cat=9
This sampleset was designed from the ground-up for Pop applications, so maybe that's the sound you're looking for. It's really pretty much impossible to coax that sound out of a mellow "classical" piano sample using eq and processing, IMO.

Btw I don't work for them ;) I just love their products (as many do around here).

matto

[Crossingsound]

I find I really like the piano sounds in collosus, while not suitable for every situation, the 2 gig piano is perfect for ambient sounding piano, very rich in my opinion and my fellow pianer friends as well. While they are sensitive patches, you have to either adjust velocities afterwards, or just learn to play more precise. I am surprised to hear awful as well, what piano sounds have you been used to playing? as far as real piano's go, Ivory is another graet library, however if you think collosus is awful, you may not like those as well

[Chinablu]

Finally, would Akoustik or Synthogy Ivory (or any other software) get me a better (and clearer) piano sound than Colossus?

Listen to Ivory demos (http://www.synthogy.com/pages/audio.html).

I bought it, it's awesome.

[ohernie]

... while not suitable for every situation, the 2 gig piano is perfect for ambient sounding piano
Now THERE's an understatement ...

Ernie

[Hermitage59]

To give you another option, may i suggest you consider Worra's 7 Seas Grand, or another of his fine piano sample libraries?

Good luck,

Alex.

[Laurent]

Hi,

I'm also a big fan of Sampletekk piano.
For "clear and crisp pop sound" (what Phil B is looking for) TBO may be more suitable than his brother 7CG.
White Grand is also a must try.

If you don't have a sampler and/or if you want a "plug and play" VST, Ivory has obviously clear and crisp piano sounds.

[mattdean]

I love Ivory. There are many different presets (3 different sampled pianos) to choose from for whatever sound you are going for.

[Phil B]

Many thanks for your very useful replies.

Sampletekk White Grand sounds very much what I am looking for. However, can anyone advise how I would use this in Logic Express? I don't have Kontakt (only Kompakt). I don't have any other software either, and I don't think that Kompakt can be used for this... Are there other possibilities for 'plugging-in' this sortware to Logic? EXS24 sounds familiar, but I don't really know what this is... And where does DFD come into this?

Sorry to be asking such basic questions, but my computer knowledge is extremely limited!!!!!

Thank you very much

[Olivier]

Hi,

Native Instrument Akoustik Piano 1.1 Concert Grand is a good choice.

This library is updated with overtones simulation , great sound and performance.

and another update come with more...

Regards,

Olivier

[Hermitage59]

Many thanks for your very useful replies.

Sampletekk White Grand sounds very much what I am looking for. However, can anyone advise how I would use this in Logic Express? I don't have Kontakt (only Kompakt). I don't have any other software either, and I don't think that Kompakt can be used for this... Are there other possibilities for 'plugging-in' this sortware to Logic? EXS24 sounds familiar, but I don't really know what this is... And where does DFD come into this?

Sorry to be asking such basic questions, but my computer knowledge is extremely limited!!!!!

Thank you very much


Phil,
If you have Logic Express, then EXS is the one you want.

The player 'inside' Logic is called the EXSP24. It is an audio instrument, and if you've had a play with Logic already, you'll realise that there is a difference between an Audio Track, an Audio Instrument track, and a midi track.
The EXSP24 'plays' EXS files. These files come in two parts. (I'm keeping it simple here.) And let's use a bassoon for an example. (A tribute to one of our members here, Brian 2112, who is plotting a bassoon jam session.)

The two parts are:
The instrument. This doesn't contain anything except instructions.
The samples. These are the sound files, and are arranged according to a sequence, or 'map' that is in the instrument file (instructions.)

It's important to remember for any EXS file, that the 'instrument' file goes in:

/library/application support/Logic/Sampler Instruments.


This is the case for all your EXS instrument files. Logic won't recognise them otherwise.
The sample part of each file can live in a different place on a Hard Drive, but if you're new, and using one HD, i suggest when you load all the files in the same spot, at least until you're more experienced with the program.

This is achieved in the following fashion:

You've taken delivery of your brand new piano samples (let's call them Worra's 7CG for clarity.) in EXS format.

It asks you where you would like to put the files. Put everything in the instrument file, in the path i listed above.

Open Logic Express.

Create an Audio Instrument track.

Open an 'instance' of EXSP.

In the menu, if you have placed the files correctly when you have installed your new piano, you'll see 'Worra's 7CG' listed among the rest of your instruments.
Select.
Wait for them to load.
Play.


There are pros and cons for many types of format, and different users will extol the virtues of one or another.

As you're a self confessed newbie, you've probably chosen a good start, as EXS files, and the ESXP mkII player are forgiving, and quite simple to use.
This format is a little old, but reliable, and has the advantage of being economic, compared to other formats, with RAM, something you'll learn to consider instinctively, the more samples you buy, and the more tracks you load.

You can have several Audio Instrument tracks open, using the EXSP24 as your Audio Instrument in this case, and your computer won't spit and cough and tell you you're overdoing it (unless you really overdo it!). EXS is pretty efficient, and although it lacks one or two features, you'll be up and running and enjoying yourself fairly quickly without too much pain.
You can have several EXSP24's open at once (one for each track), and it's worth knowing that if you buy an orchestral library in EXS format, it highly likely (given a decent amount of RAM, and fairly quick CPU, and HD) you'll be able to load a full orchestra's worth, (with just one or two articulations for each instrument) without too much hassle.
You did ask about pianos, but you may want to branch out a bit, so it's worth knowing the basic process for other instruments too, yes?

Kontakt format is popular at the moment, and GS3 has been around since Moses was a boy. These formats are used by experienced fellows, and have many advantages, and objectively, some disadvantages, but do require some knowledge to get the best out of them. As you're on Mac, GS3 is pointless at this stage, as it's Windows only.

It's absolutely worth reading the manual, and catching up with forum discussions specific to Logic. Go to Apple's site and search for discussions.
Select the Logic forum, and read,man,read.

As a final point, it's important to remember that EXSP mkII is built into Logic as an Audio Instrument, and is not available as a standalone instrument, like a VSTi. (That's a discussion for another time.)

Good Luck!

Alex.

[Ashermusic]

I have been playing the EXS24 version of the Sampletekk Seven Seas Grand the last couple of days and the more I play it the more I like it. I am experimenting with adding the UAD-1 Neve 1073 and Plate 140 and I am about to start fooling around with the UAD-1 compressors.

I have always been more partial to Steinway/Bosendorfver than Yamaha but I am really impressed with this piano's versatility.

I love playing the ArtVista Virtual Grand but my engineer really dislikes working with it so I may have found my new "go to" piano with the Seven Seas.

So kudos to Per and Sampletekk.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I have been playing the EXS24 version of the Sampletekk Seven Seas Grand the last couple of days and the more I play it the more I like it.

I have the same impression. I initially preferred TBO. Now it is very close. I like the #1 instrument, run with the pedal up resonance from GigaPiano II. It gives it a shimmery 3D quality that is fantastically rich. It is probably the richest sounding piano of all that I have played. TBO cuts a little differently, but Seven Seas holds its own, and it is a more grounded, whole-cloth piano sound.

There are a bunch of more than decent pianos out there. It's a matter of what floats your boat.

[howardv]

One thing I've noticed when recording big bright Yamahas is that they have a natural tendancy to resonate nicely with female vocals. Bet that pedal-up resonance would do exactly that if applied directly to a vocal. Gotta try that.

Howard

[kbaccki]

However, can anyone advise how I would use this in Logic Express? I don't have Kontakt (only Kompakt). I don't have any other software either, and I don't think that Kompakt can be used for this...

???

Kompakt is the Kontakt engine with (major) edit capability removed. It should import Kontakt libs natively, I would imagine.

In any case, Sampletekk's "multi-format" libs come in three falvors on one disk -- Kontakt, HALion, EXS24 -- so you should be all set with either Kompakt or EXS24.

[Laurent]

I have the same impression. I initially preferred TBO. Now it is very close. I like the #1 instrument, run with the pedal up resonance from GigaPiano II. It gives it a shimmery 3D quality that is fantastically rich.
For those who like to make there own "hybrid" pianos (ooops I hope it's not a trademarked word...) I also recommend to try running 7CG or TBO with the Vintaudio C7 Pedal Up bridge resonance...

[JohnGrant]

I'm going to resurrect this subject, but with this qualifier....

Best recorded piano sample sound?

Or....

Best live sampled piano sound?

Two completely different kettle of fish. In the "live" category it's almost anyone's bet, anyone's personal preference, depending on a million different factors.

Best recorded piano sound? That's probably a little easier to settle. In that category, you can narrow things down a bit, depending on whether you're talking about solo piano; piano in a mix; classical... jazz, pop, type of piano... Steinway, Bos, etc; ambient sound or flat sound; etc.

So, for example, the best recorded piano sound in the Steinway category, solo piano, classical, ambient sound, is probably a toss up between
Akoustic, Black, and Galaxy.

You can fiddle a lot with any of these pianos and come up with a recorded-result that is pretty hard to distinguish from a mid-tier professional recording of a live solo piano. Top tier? No, I don't think we're there yet. The best live piano solo recordings are still very hard to match. We'll see whether Garritan can break that elusive sound barrier.

Again: live performance piano samples? Wow.... Totally depends on your personal preference as a pianist. Your touch. What sound you like to hear coming out of the speakers (and they better be good) when you hit the keys. Where you're playing. Who your'e playing to. Who you're playing with. The list goes on and on.

JG

[beatpete]

Seven Seas Grand here hands down. funny, because up untill the 7CG, the East West Steinway was my favourite and I'm pretty sure that's included in Collosus.

[JohnGrant]

Best recorded or best for live playing?

JG

[beatpete]

I guess, both because one works hand in hand with the other.

[JohnGrant]

Sorry. I don't understand. A piano sample that sounds fabulous played live, in a room, a hall, or in some other acoustic space, doesn't have to have a totally accurate "piano" sound. There are a few Roland digital pianos, for example, that a good ear will tell you don't sound exactly like a piano. Yet they play and sound great when gigging in many different venues. They make great live music, in other words; even though AS RECORDED they don't sound all that "piano-like."

On the other hand, there are piano samples like the BOS 290 that I personally think would be far too reverberant (even the flat sample) for decent gigging; yet they can be made to sound completely like a real piano for purposes of making a piano CD, i.e., in a recorded environment, where touch, immediacy, intimacy, predictability of velocity response etc., aren't that important, but where accuracy of the piano sound is critical.

Hence the familiar totally rotten experience we've all had where we hear a mp3 demo of a piano sample that WOWS us, only to discover on purchasing the sample that it sounds nothing like the demo (recorded sound) when we sit down to play it live!!!!

Hey, there might of course be a piano that does BOTH these things--the live sound and the merely recorded sound--equally well. For my tastes, though, I haven't heard---yet---a piano that sounds totally convincing AS RECORDED. There are plenty that I'd play live happily. An exception might be the WET BOS 291, but then you've got to settle for a sound that is mighty reverberant, and by definition unplayable in a live setting. Only good for making piano CDs in otherwords, where manipulating the midi file would be pretty much a necessity to get the sound you want.

Another way of seeing the distinction I'm trying to make is that piano samples that sound good played live tend to be very dry. The drier the better, for the most part, because the piano sample in a live context needs, above all else, to respond predictably. Once the sound comes out of the speakers and starts rebounding off whatever is in the space they're being played in, all kinds of unexpected things can happen. You want to be certain of the result, or as certain as you can be. You don't want anything unexpected.

A piano sample that sounds good in terms of the recorded result, heard that is "as a recording" and not "live," can afford quite a bit of inherent reverb; i.e., it can be recorded pretty wet, because what's being heard is the room or hall that was part of the piano performance.

Quite the opposite is the case for samples played in a live context, where the room your playing live in provides the particular dynamics, the ambience, and the reverberation you're playing in. You don't want somebody else's room messing up the sound that is inherent in the room or hall you're playing live in. Two reverbs, in this sense, are not better than one!

JG

[beatpete]

John:
For me, the 7CG sounds great period. I don't make a distiction between live and recorded, it just sounds good. None of the Rolands and Yamahas come close to my ears. I guess anythng can work live, but my premise is, if it sounds good, it will work anywhere. It sounds like you should really audition anything before you buy...