Stradamazing!!!! - The Discussion on Tone

[jonray]

Today I installed the Strad for the first time and after a few teething problems :( which were eventually sorted :) , I got it up and running.

Bloomin' eck!!!! I did THIS in an hour:

http://my-mp3s.music-4-schools.co.uk/Scherzo_Strad_Jon_Raybould.mp3

Remember this was straight out of the box with no explorarion of advanced key switching, trills etc, just with a bit of volume (expression controller) and modulation (vibrato intensity) tweaking.

What an instrument!!! Love it!!! Heh heh Heh!!! Gary - thank you so much for the Group Buy!!!

Cheers
Jon Raybould

[GerardR]

I agree a bit with Raymond. I know you did it in one hour and that is a great effort, but please make Mendelssohn happy and make it a real Midsummernights Dream.

Regards

Gerard

[jonray]

Hi guys,
Thanks for the feedback.

Raymond and Gerard - if I could get a few pointers about how technically I could tweak things to try to make Mendelssohn a little more happy, I'd love to hear more!! :)


Houston - what did I do in my next hour? See
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50626
(Almost literally that took up my next hour)!!!! LOL :D

Richard, Larry, Bob, David, Vic - Appreciate your comments.

Best
Jon

[Hardy Heern]

Great job jonray......as Larry would say (hope you're still doing OK Larry!) Cor Blimey! :)

I'm on the point of buying this library, and probably will, but still have concerns about the tone at times.....and I'm very torn about it. I've complemented JerryW on his piece http://frontiernet.net/~jerrysmusic2...lein_Mild!.mp3 (http://frontiernet.net/~jerrysmusic2/O_Jesulein_Suess!_O_Jesulein_Mild!.mp3) and you, yours.....they are great.

However, I thought that Dan's Jesu violin and cello piece (and Dan has the greatest of skills, which I greatly admire) Yesu Parvule (https://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Jesu%20Parvule%20Dan%20Kury.mp3) sounded like a harmonium to start with!.....I stress only for the first second or two.... until I knew what was happening (not having heard the piece before). Then the dreaded (to me) occurrence of the hollow tones were spotted....at 13, 18, 22, 27, 47-50, 55, 59secs and at 1:01min.

I've even gone through a lot of my violin CDs to check if my memory deceives me....but no....I've not heard real violins with this hollow, recorder/clarinetish? sound.

I'm very puzzled by this as obviously the violin has been very carefully recorded but something, somewhere in the technology causes this hollow sound which is quite un-violin like. It's often fleeting but, sometimes, spoils the effect for me and actually jars my senses.....not enough to prevent me buying it (I hasten to add) as I hear other great stuff from it but maybe I'll have to avoid using it in a certain way....or in a certain region of pitch/ velocity or something?

If anyone can say why this is (and I'm, pretty, confident that it isn't the actual violin recorded. I say this as I've just listened to a lot of violin music before daring to post this)

I found the early Gofiller cello demos exhibit the same problem but hopefully this will be improved before release.

I'm very interested in understanding what causes this effect as I've heard it, on and off, for the last 20yrs from the early electronic orchestral organ days.

I reiterate, I still think the library has more than enough to make the current offer price attractive (although, I don't think any solo instrument should sell for more than $50-100 (as I've said many times....not when compared to the price of full orchestra libraries). The library has great expressive abilities although I'm not a believer in practicing any part to the degree that I could add all the controllers in realtime.....I'm an advocate of adding those after entering the part.....(admitting that I haven't used it yet!:) )

Any ideas anyone?

Frank

[Garritan]

this hollow sound which is quite un-violin like. It's often fleeting but, sometimes, spoils the effect for me and actually jars my senses.....not enough to prevent me buying it (I hasten to add) as I hear other great stuff from it but maybe I'll have to avoid using it in a certain way....or in a certain region of pitch/ velocity or something?... Any ideas anyone?
I hope you will re-render this piece. After having heard this one I certainly won't buy the Strad. :(
I think there are many factors affecting the sound of music and sometimes it is a subjective thing too. There have been heated arguments for centuries about real violins - the Stradivari having a nasal tone where as the Guarneri has a golden tone, and vice versa. Mixing also plays a factor. The Stradivari takes time and practice.

Many times it is the artist and their skill level with the instrument. If you put a real Stradivari in the hands of a beginner it will not sound very good. And if you put an old pawn shop violin in the hands of a master, it will sound ever so sweet. This is why education and practice is important. I think the following excerpt from the famous poem by Myra B Welch may shed some light:

The Master's Touch

It was battered and scarred
and the auctioneer thought it scarcely worth his while
to waste much time on the Old Violin but he held it up with a smile.

"What am I bid Goodfolks?" he cried. "Who'll start the bidding for me?"
It was "a dollar... a dollar.... then two"... only two.
"Two dollars and who'll make it three?"
"Three dollars once - Three dollars twice - And going for three"
But No!...

From the room far back,
a gray-haired man came forward and picked up the bow.
And wiping the dirt from that old violin...
and tightening the loosened strings...
You know, He played a melody pure 'n sweet, as the carillon angels sing.

Well, the music stopped,
and the auctioneer in a voice that was quiet and low...
Said: "What am I bid for the Old Violin?" And He held it up with the bow.
"A thousand dollars! Who'll make it two?

Two thousand! Who'll make it Three?"
It was "three thousand once"... "three thousand twice"...
and "Going for three!" said he.

Well, the people stared...
But some of them cried: "We do not quite understand!"
"What changed its worth?"
Swift came the reply... "It was the Touch of the Master's Hand."
...

[Houston Haynes]

I've heard this hollow/nasal sound out of a violin many times, it's just that it's fleeting in the capable player's hands, and they tend to steer away from it when they hit that tonal quality. And in some cases, players actually *look* for that quality in order to cut through an ensemble - a characteristic that make the Stradivari a particularly prized instrument amongst soloists through the ages.

I think that people declaring one way or the other based on recordings is listening through rose colored glasses - because that's based on an artificially produced sound - that of a recorded, mixed and mastered performance of an instrument of a particular character.

Every girl looks pretty in her prom dress, and every solo violin recording worth publication has a beautiful round tone.

The SSV is capable of producing a nice round tone of that quality, but it takes time, practice, and facility with the instrument, as well as better-than average mixing and mastering chops to make it nearly-indistinguishable from a recording of the real thing.

I say again - I double-dare anyone to come this close to a genuine sound one hour out of the box - on any virtual/sampled violin instrument.

[Garritan]

Today I installed the Strad for the first time and after a few teething problems :( which were eventually sorted :) , I got it up and running.

Bloomin' eck!!!! I did THIS in an hour:

http://my-mp3s.music-4-schools.co.uk/Scherzo_Strad_Jon_Raybould.mp3

Remember this was straight out of the box with no explorarion of advanced key switching, trills etc, just with a bit of volume (expression controller) and modulation (vibrato intensity) tweaking.

What an instrument!!! Love it!!! Heh heh Heh!!! Gary - thank you so much for the Group Buy!!!

Cheers
Jon RaybouldJon,

For one hour of playing with the library you have done extraordinary! Usually I tell people it takes a bit of practice to learn to play the Strad. You did fantastic on your first attempt and you did this library justice. It will only get better and better.

This Listening Room here is for sharing music among members and to learn and it is not an official demo area. I don't know why some would feel the need to rain on your parade. Some simply do not understand the spirit of this community and the listening room. Those who don't own the library simply may not understand how radically different this instrument is.

Do not let the few comments dampen your enthusiam. Keep up the good work and thank you for sharing your excitement. We are here to help you get the best use of the library. Please continue to share your talent and your music.

Thank you for posting this and best wishes for the New Year.

Gary Garritan

[Tom Hopkins]

They must have put something sour in the water over there in the Netherlands! Think “positive, constructive feedback,” guys. Otherwise, your comments are less than pointless. Rule of Thumb: When someone is so obviously having a great deal of fun while exploring a new instrument (read: Excited!), don't charge in with your biggest, heaviest wet blanket and try to squelch the enthusiasm. If you don't like what you hear either give some helpful suggestions or find something more productive to do with your time (gardening is a nice hobby!)

Jon, the Strad *is* an exciting instrument to play, isn't it? I found it difficult to put down when I first tried it a few weeks back. It's simply astonishing how intuitive it is to play. Giorgio and Stefano have done a fantastic job with this instrument. Only those who have played it will understand. There's a simple solution for anyone who doesn't like what they hear – don't buy the product. The loss will be yours. The rest of us will be enjoying the thrill of this marvel.

As to the demo: If that's what you've managed to accomplish in just an hour, Jon, I can't wait to hear what you'll be doing in the coming months! Remarkable.

Tom

[Tom Hopkins]

I really know that you have to put in a lot of effort in "programming" the sound to get it right and sound like a Stradivarius or any other well build violin (and according to the Italic story of Gary, it takes a master to make it really "sing" ).I want to make the following extremely clear so that the proper people receive the much-deserved credit for the Strad: I was *not* involved in its development except in the most minimally peripheral of ways. All original concepts, programming, and adjustments were accomplished by Giorgio Tommasini & Stefano Lucato. I was busy on other projects at the time of the Strad's development. When I mentioned (in my previous post) that I had been impressed by the Strad a few weeks ago - "a few weeks ago" was the first time I had actually played with the instrument and it was sent to me in its released-to-the-public form. My impressions were essentially arrived at in the same manner as any other user at first encounter with the Strad.

But just after having heard a real master on the Strad, I stumbled upon this one.... and decided that it has a long way to go.Yes, but just saying that accomplishes nothing. Be specific. In what ways? Articulations, application of portamentos, phrasing, etc.? Specific suggestions will help the user take steps to improve their work. Blanket statements without detail aid no one - least of all the user who has posted the mp3. If you have no specific suggestions then be sure and plant flowering annuals at the correct time of year and fertilizer can do wonders.

Tom

[Houston Haynes]

Listening to more or less official demo's is another question. They are or have been mastered by real "masters" of this instrument with knowledge and appropriate skills do make it sing. But these are "masters!"

That's just a bunch of "fertilizer". Here's the quote from the Garritan Demo Page (http://www.garritan.com/audio/index.html): [emphasis mine]

Note that these demos are not professionally produced in order to make a more favorable impression - such examples would be misleading. Instead, we thought it honest to show the Personal Orchestra in real world use. What you hear is what you get... straight from users from around the world.

It seems like you need to slow down on your rate of sounding off in forums and work on your listening and reading comprehension.

The listening room is a good place to hear what others can make of GPO and/or the Strad and when that isn't satisfactory......... except with a lot of programming(and I mean really a lot), then "I am not in".

More "fertilizer". This thread is about what one person created in their first hour of using the SSV.

ONE HOUR - THEIR FIRST HOUR.

He specifically mentioned that he DIDN'T use any of the controllers that have been designed into the instrument. (again with the lack of reading comprehension, what's up with that?)

For the sake of discussion I will make a Prelude for piano and violin to see what I can do after several hours. My personal challenge.

Nope - you can't change the rules to suit yourself - it's got to be solo violin only, on the level of complexity of the Mendelssohn - and it has to be done in one hour. I'll grant you the one exception in that it doesn't have to be your first hour with your instrument of choice.

Good luck.

By the way - if you want to hear something that was played in real time, try this:

here's an .mp3 (http://vemerson.club.fr/Uploads/Strad_2_Impro_2.mp3) of some improvised ramblings I did on the Strad II.. mainly experiments with playing technique..

Remember, if you want to be in lock-step with this, you've got to be able to pull it off in real time and match complexity. I'll spot you a second pass in a sequencer to modify some attack velocities to get the portamento to be just so.

:wow:

Because your reading comprehension seems to need so much help - I'll summarize for you: You've refused to approach this new user's work on their terms You've applied several logical fallacies to prop up your sock-puppet position here *All* of your missives have been summarily deconstructed with direct attribution from primary sources You've alluded to proffering your own work, which has parameters that are nowhere close to being comparitive to the original poster's initial submission.

I don't know what they call that in the Netherlands, but in America we use the phrase "you don't have a leg to stand on".

[YBaCuO]

Since we are complaining about tone ...

HH - I would prefer it if the forum remained a friendly place.

YBaCuO

[Houston Haynes]

Since we are complaining about tone ...

HH - I would prefer it if the forum remained a friendly place.

YBaCuO

It would be a lot friendlier if we didn't have a pair of sock-puppets seizing on every newbie's thread as a way to attempt to throw Garritan's into the ditch and condescend to everyone in the thread. This is a resurgent pattern that I think has more to do with sour grapes and hidden agendas than sincerity in wanting to engage in a proper discussion.

Don't turn this thread into something about me just because your buddy got busted. Jon made a great first effort with the Mendelsohn, and *that* was what this thread was about until your friends from the Nether Regions came along to prop up the standard tired old paper tiger and half-baked allusions.

[Garritan]

This Thread has been spit from the original Stradamazing!!!
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50603

This thread is to focus on specific issues that Raymond and Hardy brought up.

Tone has been something that has been discussed at length. and past discussions have lead to imporvements with the instrument. So we welcome your comments on how to improve the Stradivari.

With the Strad we have two primary tones. "Lyrical" has a warm rich tone and "Classical" has a brighter tone. The tone of the violin can be chosen. Here is an example of the Lyrical patch done by David Hearn: http://www.garritan.com/Strad/ForClaire.mp3

But there is more to it than just fundamental tone. Like a real violin it is not just the bow going across the string (or in this case samples merely being triggered). It is how the player acts upon the instrument.

The way the Strad is played will affect the tone. Bow noise is important and the imparting of vibrato will play a significant role in how the tone is shaped. The ability to shape phrases with dynamics and the bow effects also play a role. It is the playing of the instrument that also creates the tone and this is what makes the Stradivari SV unique.

Gary Garritan

[Garritan]

The next replier calls for a friendlier discussion. I pity this discussion very much and was offended by Garritan and Tom suggesting that I can better go for gardening.

RaymondRaymond,

I think Tom saying "If you don't like what you hear either give some helpful suggestions or find something more productive to do with your time (gardening is a nice hobby!)" was Tom's attempt at humor.

In the Listening Room we try to focus on the contributor's music and we offer constructive suggestions and feedback. Perhaps there are language and cultural things going into the discussion. Sometimes people react to how they read words and the intent can be different.

You made your point about not wanting the Strad based on this beginning demo, but I invite you to hear the dozens of other demos at http://garritan.com/stradivari.html I think you will hear a variety of tone. But it may be that none of these are to your liking, and that is fine too. This instrument is not for everyone and tone is a very personal thing.

Gary Garritan

[commalot]

I'm not a regular contributor to these forums but after reading this thread I thought I'd say something. STAY ON TOPIC! The original post simply expressed enthusiasm for a sample library. Give an appropriate answer or skip it. I did have an idea though. Create a separate forum section called "Flame Out" or "Things I Don't Like", etc. and dump any threads that go negative in there.
Just a thought, David M.

[Garritan]

I'm not a regular contributor to these forums but after reading this thread I thought I'd say something. STAY ON TOPIC! The original post simply expressed enthusiasm for a sample library. Give an appropriate answer or skip it. I did have an idea though. Create a separate forum section called "Flame Out" or "Things I Don't Like", etc. and dump any threads that go negative in there.
Just a thought, David M.commalot,

We split this thread from the original in the Listening Room in order to stay on topic: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50603

I like your idea of a dedicated section called "Flame Out" or "Things I Don't Like". But only a very few would be there as 99+% of the posts are constructive, encouraging, helpful and positive.

Gary Garritan

[commalot]

Hello Gary, or should I say Mr. Garritan. Yes, I agree that 99% of of the people here are very helpful. I've received lots of help from this forum both from public and private posts. Creating music, either as a hobby or professionally, is a passion on an aesthetic line that is easily trounced on. I believe all art forms have that Achilles heel. So I get angry when I see someone's enthusiasm pummeled.
Here's to Art, David M.

[Giorgio Tommasini]

Raymond,

Thanks for your latest comments.

Well, the importance of proper communication cannot be overemphasized. :)

You will probably appreciate the Stradivari manual. It was conceived and written to provide some essential information, as well as practical examples, to obtain expressiveness from the instrument within a reasonable time, if not straight out of the box.

Some useful tutorials and midi files are available as well:

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47734

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41257

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40923

Best regards,

Giorgio :|:

[Hannes_F]

Today I installed the Strad for the first time and after a few teething problems :( which were eventually sorted :) , I got it up and running.

Bloomin' eck!!!! I did THIS in an hour:

http://my-mp3s.music-4-schools.co.uk/Scherzo_Strad_Jon_Raybould.mp3

Remember this was straight out of the box with no explorarion of advanced key switching, trills etc, just with a bit of volume (expression controller) and modulation (vibrato intensity) tweaking.

What an instrument!!! Love it!!! Heh heh Heh!!! Gary - thank you so much for the Group Buy!!!

Cheers
Jon Raybould

Jon,

this is really impressive and I thing you did a good job on this. I like your phrasing.

One remark to the tone topic:
As a hardware violinist I am always on guard with the sharpness of the tone on the lower E-string. Sometimes it is really needed but easily overdone and too sharp if permanent. Play a sharp tone there once and people will notice it as an accent - nice. Do it twice and they will regard it as a repetition. Three sharp notes in a memorable time and they will think that your violin sound is always too screechy.

So I look for ways to disarm the tone in that region on the real instrument - two ways to do this 'hardware-EQ-ing' are by flattening the fingers of the left hand or bowing more towards the fingerboard. Vibrato also plays a role since it can be more 'cutting' or more 'smoothing' in character. Most effective but not always possible would be to play the same passage up at the A string - but this can lead to a muffeled and unclear tone so it is not always an option.

So if I were to play the electronic version I would look for a way to sweeten the tone especially in the range from E4 to C5 - not always but sometimes to make variations. Maybe there is a controller for that? If not, I would use EQing there.

Just my 2c.


Hannes

[Hannes_F]

One more thought:

Instruments that have been recorded closely need an appropriate high frequency roll off for creating some distance - reverb alone is not enough. I have found this also to be valid with recorded violin and it will also help the Garritan Strad tone. I guess the irritation with the first Strad version about being a little too harsh in tone was partly caused because of this effect - dry and close recording of the basic material to get the best possible signal-to-noise ratio. But most people know the violin sound from a distance of say 3 - 10 meters.

Hannes

[jonray]

To Jonray,

I apologize to you having said that I didn't like what you'd put on the forum.
By no means it was something to take away your enthousiasm.

I hope that you will accept my apologies and please continue putting things in the Listening Room.


Hi Raymond!! Thanks for the aploogy, my friend, but really there's no need to apologise to me!! I didn't take your comments personally as it happens.

I think the main thing that seemed to cause the reaction was the abruptness of your message - short and to the point. But no matter - all's now forgotten and you certainly didn't dampen my enthusiasm. I'll continue to post pieces!

Raymond - who after having heard the demo's I couldn't find in the first place, ordered the Strad!!


LOL! So you bought it anyway - fantastic!!! :) :) Maybe you'll post some Strad pieces of yours soon?? :D :D

Take care
Jon

[jonray]

Jon,

this is really impressive and I thing you did a good job on this. I like your phrasing.



Hannes, many thanks for your comment. Especially since I now know you're a violinist!!! (And having heard your playing on the other Garitan forum, a very good one..)

Your comments about the sharpness of tone of the lower register and about introducing some high frequency eq to give a distance effect make a lot of sense and I thank you for the advice. I will investigate this when time allows.

Thanks again
Jon