Rumor Dept: Apple overhauling Logic to be a ProTools killer? [Archive]

Garritan

02-28-2007, 03:13 PM

Sergievsky

02-28-2007, 08:59 PM

It will probably be a DP killer too (and I'm a DP diehard). But they really do need to overhaul that interface otherwise the only one they'll kill is themselves.

JohnnyP

02-28-2007, 10:54 PM

I'd like to see Apple try. Now I use both Logic ANd Pro Tools. Ironically I just got through studying the Dvorin Advanced Logic Pro 7 chapter on audio editing.
I have used Pro tools long time and after completeing the chapter using the marquee tool and the waveform editing escercises I felt like, 'Man this is what Pro Tools is for.'
Maybe it's just me, but Pro Tools has the audio editing thing down pretty bone simple. But as usual I guess it's about which app you feel comfortable with.
I think they're both excellent apps. I like midi in one thing and editing/mixing in another. In Logic I do enjoy have audio, and samples, along with my midi data, but when it comes to hard core audio editing, I enjoy Pro Tools. Perhaps I'm too old shool.

jimmymio

03-01-2007, 12:02 AM

I think they're both excellent apps. I like midi in one thing and editing/mixing in another. In Logic I do enjoy have audio, and samples, along with my midi data, but when it comes to hard core audio editing, I enjoy Pro Tools. Perhaps I'm too old shool.

I'm a Logic user and i think i can safely say that among Logic-users, its pretty well accepted that PT is a far superior as an audio recorder/editor. OTOH Logic is untouchable as a compositional tool with its seamless integration of midi and its plethora of plugs and soft synths.
And on the Mac side, DP seems to sit somewhere in the middle.
As for the rumours, I never pay them too much attention. Besides, even if it were possible, Apple would have as much to lose as to gain by crushing PT.
JP

clonewar

03-01-2007, 12:48 AM

I ran across this on Arstechnica (http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/2/27/7253)
"Basically the rumor is this: There will be no Logic 8. The successor to Logic 7 will have a new name. The unnamed application will be 10.5 only and will work with a new line of touch sensitive Apple displays. Also, it will be an OMG PROTOOLS KILLER!@!! "
Read about the rumor here:
http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/2/27/7253

We'll know soon if this is just rumor. Hard to imagine that this will kill Pro Tools.

Well, as that article states, this rumor started on the GS forum and it was started by someone making their first post at the forum. He also said that the new app wouldn't have the environment. I've been thinking about moving to an Intel Mac and Logic and one of the reasons is that I want access to the routing and programming capabilities of the environment. I'll be waiting to see what Apple has planned.

Should be an interesting year...

BenBotkin

03-01-2007, 01:11 AM

OTOH Logic is untouchable as a compositional tool with its seamless integration of midi and its plethora of plugs and soft synths.
JP

Recant!

:samurai:
:( :eek:

(Cubase stand triumphant on the heads of it's defeated enemies!) ;) :D

Gamera

03-01-2007, 01:25 AM

Everybody wants to be a Pro Tools killer.

- G

Daryl

03-01-2007, 02:17 AM

The only thing that will kill PT, and all those users who have spend many thousands on the hardware, is when Digi moves away from PC and Mac and goes to a totally proprietary system. Now didn't I hear an industry rumour about that?

Digi has also shored up its sales by the acquisition of Sibelius, which gives it access to the huge education market. This is where Cubase is currently king, but a combination of PT, Sibelius and cheap crapola M-Audio hardware should prove to be a winning combination for schools.

Logic has got no chance as a killer of anything, no matter how good some people think it is, because it only runs on a minority platform. Now if Apple was to re-instate the PC version......!

D

StrangeCat

03-01-2007, 06:07 AM

that's nothing they have blue prints to some new apps there working on and gear that is supposed to take apple to a whole new level for music intergration. hmm windows what's happen'n?

Journeyman

03-01-2007, 06:14 AM

Cubase, Schmubase....*()

dvincent

03-01-2007, 07:51 AM

If Apple does want Logic to be a ProTools killer they will need to change the way the OS handles sample rate conversion not only for Logic but many other programs.

Source with petition to sign:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/BetterSRCforMacOSX/

"Current SRC sounds OK to me . . . .

I'm amazed at the time and energy (not to mention money) people spend in the pursuit of the highest quality audio, higher sample-rates, greater bit-depths, expensive D/A's and A/D's, dedicated input channels, 'mastering' plug-ins, and so on, and then run the resulting files through mediocre SRC without a second thought. . . and then complain that '44.1K doesn't sound as good', without considering or evaluating the impact of the SRC process itself; "jitter, aliasing, distortion, and rounding errors", as BIAS put it.

Why do we need better SRC in 'Mac OS X' as opposed to 'in Logic' or 'in DP5', for example?

Many Apple and 3rd party applications use Apple's SRC algorithms. It would be great to fix 'em all in one fell swoop.

Some contenders for better SRC:

Logic Express
Logic Pro
iMovie
Final Cut Pro
QuickTime
Soundtrack Pro
WaveBurner (possibly uses internal even worse SRC - not confirmed)

Digital Performer 5 (not independently confirmed)"

Garritan

03-01-2007, 01:16 PM

More rumors abound about this new app with its multi-touch screen. According to one speculation (http://www.make%7E%7E%7E%7Ebreak%7E%7E%7E%7E.com/2007/02/28/one-more-thing-leopards-key-feature-to-be-multi-touch/):
"Not the Pro Tools thing as much- though I am curious if they can turn Logic into the audio eqivalent of Final Cut Pro- but the idea that Multi-Touch is coming to Pro Apps (and displays!) is big."

"With this in mind, I think the “secret” feature that Jobs has been hinting at with Leopard but has to date been unnanounced is system wide Multi-touch across the board in 10.5. The fact that ALL Apple hardware is due for a refresh seems to coincide nicely with this new ability.

It’s not science fiction, the tech is currently shipping.... I think Job’s plans for multi-touch will go further than simply widening a scroll bar so you can fist it. Can’t wait to see how this shakes down, buI have a very good feeling this is what’s coming down the pipe in a big, big way."
Maybe we're about to see a whole new way of computing...:)

JohnnyP

03-01-2007, 02:29 PM

want access to the routing and programming capabilities of the environment. I'll be waiting to see what Apple has planned.

Should be an interesting year...
This is my main beef with Logic. Why do I have to deal with the environment at all! I know I'm only scratching the surface of the product unless I do, but Man I wish that thing would get an overhall.

JT3_Jon

03-01-2007, 02:40 PM

This is my main beef with Logic. Why do I have to deal with the environment at all! I know I'm only scratching the surface of the product unless I do, but Man I wish that thing would get an overhall.

Its funny because I LOVE the environment and the flexibility it offers. I REALLY hope they do not completely do away with it as the rumor suggests.

Of course I see where you are coming from Johnny, and feel that logic could handle things like multi-instruments better without having to deal with the environment, but to take the extreme other end and remove it completely is naive IMO.

JohnnyP

03-01-2007, 05:21 PM

Of course I see where you are coming from Johnny, and feel that logic could handle things like multi-instruments better without having to deal with the environment, but to take the extreme other end and remove it completely is naive IMO.

I do mean overhaul and not removoe for the die hard environment makers. But man using GPO or EWQL man makin them aux's just to mix?!? sucks. I mean I',m slowly making templates but it's a drag.
Incidentlly, I mentioned is there another way or simply working easier with this while at AES '05 in NY. The Logic rep said we cannot program for every single user. I was taken aback. I wasn't trying to stump the rep I just wanted another work around. I guess there isn't one.

tgfoo

03-01-2007, 05:32 PM

I do agree that I would like an easier way of dealing with multi instruments and multi output instruments without having to always fiddle about in the environment (if I want to try something out quick for instance). However, I would be sad if they did away with the environment. So much power and flexibility, I used to dread using it but know I think I'd feel limited without it.

Also, they need to fix the fact that cc7 is hard wired to midi channel 1! :mad:

Trace

03-01-2007, 07:49 PM

The guys at Sonic State were talking about this today. They seem to agree that a multitouch interface is in the offing.

Digi is penetrating all levels of the market through the afore mentioned Sibelius, as well as their aquisition of M Audio. Their marketing is really agressive, and their hardware and software is cross platform. Also, with the introduction of the VENUE live console, Digi is poised to have a large share of professional events captured live directly into PT.

It seems to me that it is the pro and hardcore semi pro market that apple will have to win over. These are the people that are most tied to the Mac as a platform. However, Digi can sell across the board to folks on all levels of the market.

I think Apple is dreaming if they think they can kill an ap that has become a verb in the audio lexicon.

By the way. I don't work for Digi, and I rarely use PT anymore. But it is handy to have around.

StrangeCat

03-01-2007, 08:00 PM

Pro Tools for Vista?
Digidesign reports that Pro Tools for Vista is “coming soon.” How soon? Um … soon. I’ve heard through the grapevine that a Pro Tools release is expected within the next few months. In the meantime, Pro Tools users should avoid Vista for the time being; it won’t work. I know we have some huge fans and haters of both Digidesign and Microsoft, so I’ll let you read this sentence however you like: “Stay tuned — all the power of Pro Tools paired with the benefits of Windows Vista is coming soon.”

from create digital music(man that site rocks*() on of my faves.

so does this mean we'll finally be able to get soundtoys plugins for windows ?

dpasdernick

03-02-2007, 07:51 AM

Apple, schmapple...

Journeyman

03-02-2007, 07:58 AM

I love their Peach Iced Tea! )(~

JMDNYC

03-02-2007, 12:41 PM

Trace

03-02-2007, 02:48 PM

Other then the hardware acceleration, the thing that has most impressed me about ProTools is the way audio can be edited and handled in one page. None of the other major DAWs seem to have adopted this approach. I have always wonderd why. I use Cubase for most of my work, and its' audio editing scenario is pretty dodgy.

clonewar

03-03-2007, 12:22 PM

I think the title of this thread has it backwards; I'm waiting for Protools to be the Logic Killer. The only thing really keeping me using both programs simultaneously is the greater midi editing flexibility in Logic and the Score Window. Digidesign has addressed the midi editing pretty much to my satisfaction in version 7.3. I'm hoping that the next big ProTools upgrade will have a Sibelius Score window integrated into the program (not just the "Send to Sibelius" as it is now.). When that happens I'll switch to all ProTools.

I like the way ProTools handles multi-channel plug-ins better than how Logic does. Also Logic doesn't seem to handle a lot of track automation very well.

Are you talking about LE or HD? No matter what midi features PT adds I can't see the composer market lining up to pay $10-15K+ for a PT setup when there are so many alternatives.

Now, if you're running a studio and want to attract customers.. or want to be able to track with 'zero' latency while using effects.. that's a different story.

JohnnyP

03-03-2007, 10:03 PM

I think the title of this thread has it backwards; I'm waiting for Protools to be the Logic Killer. The only thing really keeping me using both programs simultaneously is the greater midi editing flexibility in Logic and the Score Window. Digidesign has addressed the midi editing pretty much to my satisfaction in version 7.3. I'm hoping that the next big ProTools upgrade will have a Sibelius Score window integrated into the program (not just the "Send to Sibelius" as it is now.). When that happens I'll switch to all ProTools.

I like the way ProTools handles multi-channel plug-ins better than how Logic does. Also Logic doesn't seem to handle a lot of track automation very well.
Hmmm. this is interesting. When the notation gets 'tight' I may need to take a look. I have a friend and we were both opcode vision users. He teaches Logic at a tech school but now uses Pro tools for his composing work.

JMDNYC

03-04-2007, 06:40 PM

Are you talking about LE or HD? No matter what midi features PT adds I can't see the composer market lining up to pay $10-15K+ for a PT setup when there are so many alternatives.

Now, if you're running a studio and want to attract customers.. or want to be able to track with 'zero' latency while using effects.. that's a different story.
I have an HD3 Accel system, and I use ProTools every day. When I have to use Logic, I'm sometimes surprised by the weird errors; just the other day it was playing back a midi track transposed down a half step -- no pitch bend, no tranpositions, not when you played it live. I restarted Logic and it was fixed. This is why I call it "Logic semi-Pro."

If I didn't already have such a nice ProTools system I could see the appeal of running everything in Logic, since it does have so many features. I just find them often inconsistent in operation.

Andrew Aversa

03-04-2007, 10:33 PM

Now, if you're running a studio and want to attract customers.. or want to be able to track with 'zero' latency while using effects.. that's a different story.

Who needs PT for that? Maybe 10 years ago, or even 5... but the latest Core 2 Duos are so blazing fast that you can EASILY run dozens of even the highest CPU effects in real time, at minimal latency. I have a few projects using hundreds of plugins at 10ms and my measly 2.4ghz e6600 C2D doesn't top 50% in realtime playback. If you invested $3,000 into a new machine with a Quad Core processor, you would be able to run far more than that, also. Native is the future!

thesoundsmith

03-05-2007, 04:30 PM

Apple will not be creatng a ProTools killer anytime soon. The vast majority o fProTools customers do not care about Apple vs. PC or any features that Apple may incorporate to attract customers. ProTools people have a large investment in professional studio hardware and software, and the ProTools portability, standardization and ubiquitousness will insure its survival for a long time to come.

I'm not a ProTools fan, but I recognize that they have the ame-brand recognition that their own customers expect. Labels go to ProTools facilities so they can be insured of being able to go to any top studio in town or across the globe. Top producers choose PT for the same reasons. It will take many years for Apple to undo the music industry corporate mindset...

As an example of the professional s. home mentality, for many years, Ampex 200B recorders were the 2-track recorders of choice in most pro studios, despite the availabity of newer, quieter machines with better sound (the original Ampex went to 12K with a S/N of around 53dB, if I remember correctly. In a few years, Teac had a 10" model that was flat to 18K and produced tone up to 22K, with a >60dB SN, but no professional studio would touch it over the 200B, which could run 24/7 with no problem.

David Abraham

03-05-2007, 10:02 PM

If you invested $3,000 into a new machine with a Quad Core processor, you would be able to run far more than that, also. Native is the future!

and PT LE is native....

Sergievsky

03-05-2007, 10:17 PM

and PT LE is native....

But no PDC which makes mixing a pain... and a limit of 32 tracks (48 stereo if you pay an additional 400bucks which I did)...and you're limited to their interfaces whose awful coreaudio drivers discourages you from using it with other apps.

David Abraham

03-06-2007, 01:02 AM

But no PDC which makes mixing a pain... and a limit of 32 tracks (48 stereo if you pay an additional 400bucks which I did)...and you're limited to their interfaces whose awful coreaudio drivers discourages you from using it with other apps.

yep, but it's clear to me that it's Digi's game to lose. If they resolve these remaining issues it could spell an even tougher time for the competition.

Ashermusic

03-06-2007, 09:16 AM

Is there really anyone here who thinks one DAW has to die for the others to be successful? The whole idea of the ProTools "killer" is just silly to me.

Houston Haynes

03-06-2007, 09:48 AM

Is there really anyone here who thinks one DAW has to die for the others to be successful? The whole idea of the ProTools "killer" is just silly to me.

You can't kill what's already dead... :D ...but seriously, I think it's a non-colloquial colloquialism. I can't tell you how many times I've run across an interesting req to score or mix a short film that said "must have your own Pro Tools rig". :rolleyes: Then, when I ask them if it *really* is a Pro Tools-only gig, in most cases they say "no, you just need to have your own equipment". Then I think to myself "oh, you're one of those special filmmakers, aren't you?"

)(~

Anyway, to me it's most important to pry the simple minds off of the simplistic idea that everything in audio is Pro Tools - not to supplant one platform for another. Remember the days when someone handed you a stack of papers and said, "Do you mind Xerox'ing this for me?" The same thing happened in synthesizers, when in the early days everything was called a "moog". So if it means that Apple runs Logic right into Pro Tools' wheelhouse - launches a massive marketing campaign - and starts sniping all of those Logic/PT combo users, so be it. For me it benefits all users of alternative audio platforms in that it will begin to shift the thinking of those that - well - don't think too much.

Pro Tools as a verb? "Here's a cassette tape of my band back in high school. Do you mind Pro Tools'ing it for me?"

~|

Trace

03-06-2007, 10:14 AM

I agree. It certainly trips on the tounge. However, I don't think I could count the number of interviews I have read with well placed artists and engineers that have actually used ProTools in just that way.

It is silly.:)

Andrew Aversa

03-06-2007, 10:24 AM

and PT LE is native....

It's tied to hardware, however, so it's not really the same thing as running Cubase for example. And when you consider that LE is the cheapest of the ProTools options, with fully-featured HD systems easily $5000+ in hardware... I mean, come on. Besides, my point still stands. You don't need a pricey and cumbersome Pro Tools setup for minimal latency and lots of effects. Home computers can do that effortlessly now.

BenBotkin

03-06-2007, 11:46 AM

DISCALIMER: Attempted humor following

Reason makes sense, Logic is a compelling argument, Trackion is stable, Audition is for wannabes, Sibelius has been dead for a long time, MOTU is sheer fantasy, Sonar is good for tracking stuff, Acidloops is pretty hot stuff--but C4 is just plain dynamite! :rolleyes: :D

Finale is the very end. ;)

thesoundsmith

03-06-2007, 12:01 PM

LE is not ProTools - Apple could do some serious damage to the amateur/semipro market, but PT RTAS is still what all the majors use, and if you want to play with the big dogs, you've got to have fleas - er, PT...

JonFairhurst

03-06-2007, 12:03 PM

And Vegas isn't compatible with other apps - What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. :)

JonFairhurst

03-06-2007, 06:39 PM

Apple has announced their ultimate product:

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/apple_unveils_new_product

mts

03-07-2007, 12:36 PM

JohnnyP

03-08-2007, 09:16 PM

Dasher,

LE is not ProTools - Apple could do some serious damage to the amateur/semipro market, but PT RTAS is still what all the majors use.
Isn't RTAS IN LE? It's been a while since I fired it up but I thought the plugs were RTAS. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point.

JohnnyP

03-08-2007, 09:24 PM

Personally, if I have a room full of 'paying' clients I'd rather be sitting in front of a hardware based system like ProTools or SSL's Soundscape because when the heat is on you'd trade reliability and speed for your entire collection of plugins. Don't get me wrong, I'm running Nuendo as well... it's certainly got the 'chops' but I wouldn't risk my studio's reputation on it.

Amen. That's what I'm talking about. Clients don't know the different nuances between MOTU, LOGIC or whatever. They know Pro Tools (probably becuase of Avid at this point.)

Andrew Aversa

03-08-2007, 09:59 PM

My experience is that any product aimed to please everyone ends up being pretty average. I'm afraid the computer age has given us into a 'something for nothing' mentality. There was a time that if you wanted 64 channels of SSL EQ you needed an SSL desk - instead we're being convinced that a 'digital emulation' is as good as the real thing and the best part is you can have it for a few hundred dollars. Personally, if I have a room full of 'paying' clients I'd rather be sitting in front of a hardware based system like ProTools or SSL's Soundscape because when the heat is on you'd trade reliability and speed for your entire collection of plugins. Don't get me wrong, I'm running Nuendo as well... it's certainly got the 'chops' but I wouldn't risk my studio's reputation on it.

You make it sound like it's impossible for digital software emulations to sound as good as hardware gear, and that lower costs imply lesser quality. I mean, you pretty much said that you're trying to impress customers (who probably don't know any better). I'd bet an awful lot of money that they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between software and hardware in terms of the final result.

tomhartman

03-08-2007, 11:17 PM

You make it sound like it's impossible for digital software emulations to sound as good as hardware gear, and that lower costs imply lesser quality. I mean, you pretty much said that you're trying to impress customers (who probably don't know any better). I'd bet an awful lot of money that they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between software and hardware in terms of the final result.

But that's not the complete story, since they couldn't often tell the difference between real and fake strings either;)

I haven't found any software that sounds as good as their hardware equivalent, or rather, I should say, sounds the SAME. I bought a real UA LA-3a this week after using the Bombfactory Plug In version for ages and the hardware version just eats it for lunch. Kind of like, do you want a real steak, or a really good photo of a real steak? ;)

TH

clonewar

03-09-2007, 02:41 AM

yep, but it's clear to me that it's Digi's game to lose. If they resolve these remaining issues it could spell an even tougher time for the competition.

This is a good point. If Digi did away with the crippling nature of PT LE/M Powered they could get a huge portion of the home/project studio market.. but my guess is that they won't anytime soon because it would eat into HD hardware sales.

That's like waiting for Apple to box OSX and let you install it on a custom built pc. Not going to happen, they're a hardware company..

clonewar

03-09-2007, 03:07 AM

I have an HD3 Accel system, and I use ProTools every day. When I have to use Logic, I'm sometimes surprised by the weird errors; just the other day it was playing back a midi track transposed down a half step -- no pitch bend, no tranpositions, not when you played it live. I restarted Logic and it was fixed. This is why I call it "Logic semi-Pro."

If I didn't already have such a nice ProTools system I could see the appeal of running everything in Logic, since it does have so many features. I just find them often inconsistent in operation.

So when you restart the problem is fixed? Why are you complaining? :)

I'm thinking about moving to a Mac Pro/Logic setup and I've learned a lot about Logic. It definitely has its share of quirks. The whole uncertainty of Logic's future with Apple has me waiting until some official word comes out about the next version.. otherwise I'll build a QX6700 based quad core pc and upgrade to Cubase 4.

One of the things that bugs me about these rumors is the chance that they could remove the environment from Logic. The environment and Logic's erector-set free form nature are what I'm interested in. With all of the professional composers and studios that use Logic I just can't believe that they would change the program so drastically. I subscribe to VI Mag and every month they profile a professional composer and almost all of them run Logic. One of them (can't remember the name) had a huge orchestral template and had a screenset setup that had two arrange windows linked, one was a full view arrange window and the other was an arrange window that had each orchestra section instrument groups in a folder, the window itself was very small, just big enough to see the 4 or 5 folder icons. The small window sat off to the side and became a menu, when he clicks on the 'strings' button (folder icon) the strings tracks open in the full size arrange window, when he clicks on 'brass' the brass tracks open, etc. I'm all about ergonomics and ts workflow enhancements like this that I want access to. It seems like you really can bend Logic to whatever workflow you want. This is what I'm worried about losing in a 'Pro Tools Killer'.

Oh well.. if they ruin it I'll probably save about $2K going with the quad core pc/Cubase 4.. looooots of samples/synths/effects I can get with that..

JMDNYC

03-09-2007, 07:24 AM

The environment and Logic's erector-set free form nature are what I'm interested in.

Although I haven't gone there yet, I think the Plogue Bidule would give you even more flexibility. It's not a sequencer though, its more of a software and plug-in host.

The small window sat off to the side and became a menu, when he clicks on the 'strings' button (folder icon) the strings tracks open in the full size arrange window, when he clicks on 'brass' the brass tracks open, etc. I'm all about ergonomics and ts workflow enhancements like this that I want access to.

ProTools 7.3 adds Window Arrangements, which can do the same thing. Clearly Digi is looking at Logic and trying to copy all the good points. (It's like what I heard some wag say about Microsoft and Vista -- they put a Mac OSX computer on the desk and told the engineers "Copy that.")

One small trouble with Logic is that I often hit the numbers by accident and the windows jump around when I don't want them to - in ProTools it takes three keystrokes which in this case is a good safeguard.

Logic on ProTools Hardware would seem to be a best-of-both-worlds solution, but when I tried that I was unable to get the surround functions to work to my satisfaction. I think this is an area where Logic needs to improve.

Finally, I think the way Digi withholds some features from ProTools LE is simply annoying; for example you can mix AIFF and WAV files in the same session in HD but not in LE. Is this an example of intentionally crippling software? (I don't know what Apple withholds in Logic Express).

Daryl

03-09-2007, 07:39 AM

So when you restart the problem is fixed? Why are you complaining? :)

DAW software that requires restarts is just no good in a professional environment. My template takes nearly 10-15 minutes to load. If I had to restart, then that would seriously impede my workflow. Currently I switch on my PC, load up, work and then switch off at the end of the day. No crashes, no MIDI quirks, no restarts.

D

tomhartman

03-09-2007, 07:54 AM

DAW software that requires restarts is just no good in a professional environment. My template takes nearly 10-15 minutes to load. If I had to restart, then that would seriously impede my workflow. Currently I switch on my PC, load up, work and then switch off at the end of the day. No crashes, no MIDI quirks, no restarts.

D

Same here on the Mac with PT, except I started up about a year ago ( I don't turn mine off at days end) ;)

TH

JMDNYC

03-09-2007, 08:59 AM

My ProTools almost never used to crash until now that I upgraded to a Mac Pro. I've had a few DAE errors -1122 now, which requires trashing the DAE preferences, something I hadn't had to do since OS9. Hopefully this is just part of the public beta testing that will soon go away with a cs update.

JonP

03-09-2007, 09:19 AM

Same here on the Mac with PT, except I started up about a year ago ( I don't turn mine off at days end) ;)

TH

Why?......

clonewar

03-09-2007, 10:37 AM

Although I haven't gone there yet, I think the Plogue Bidule would give you even more flexibility. It's not a sequencer though, its more of a software and plug-in host.

ProTools 7.3 adds Window Arrangements, which can do the same thing. Clearly Digi is looking at Logic and trying to copy all the good points. (It's like what I heard some wag say about Microsoft and Vista -- they put a Mac OSX computer on the desk and told the engineers "Copy that.")

One small trouble with Logic is that I often hit the numbers by accident and the windows jump around when I don't want them to - in ProTools it takes three keystrokes which in this case is a good safeguard.

Logic on ProTools Hardware would seem to be a best-of-both-worlds solution, but when I tried that I was unable to get the surround functions to work to my satisfaction. I think this is an area where Logic needs to improve.

Finally, I think the way Digi withholds some features from ProTools LE is simply annoying; for example you can mix AIFF and WAV files in the same session in HD but not in LE. Is this an example of intentionally crippling software? (I don't know what Apple withholds in Logic Express).

I'm waiting for Plogue to put a new demo of Bidule up so I can try it out. There's also Max/MSP so I know I can get the environment style routing without Logic. I didn't know that Bidule can be used as a VST.. very cool!

You could change the key commands for Logic's screensets (I believe). I really love using screensets. Cubase calls them workspaces, but for some reason it only allows you to assign 9 key commands to workspaces, so you can have keyboard shortcuts to your first 9 workspaces, for the rest you have to go into a 3 menu tree that opens a window where you select your workspace, which of course defeats the entire idea of a workspace to begin with, I might as well just navigate to whatever I wanted to see.

I don't think there's any doubt that Digi intentionally cripples LE. They want people to have access to it and upgrade to HD one day. This was my point earlier about how Digi could really rule the market if they stopped crippling LE, but then you would most likely have a lot of studios just running LE instead of HD.

I don't think you can compare it to Logic Pro vs Express, Cubase vs Cubase Studio, etc.. at most there's a $500 difference in those programs, with PT there's at least a $5000 difference just to get in the HD door.

clonewar

03-09-2007, 10:39 AM

JMDNYC

03-09-2007, 10:55 AM

I would like LE better if the MBox were not so large. Now there is a new mini one, and there is an M-Audio thing that's the size of a credit card (although the M-Powered LE software costs more than the MBox software). At least with Logic you can just plug your headphones into the laptop directly -- better for those composing on the airplane moments (not that I have a lot of those). Unfortunately I only have one Logic dongle, and it usually stays in my studio.

Along these lines, I found a nice little program which emulates Logic's ability to use the cap locks as a midi keyboard. It is called MidiKeys.

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/16702

Very useful when you want to travel light.

Cubase calls them workspaces, but for some reason it only allows you to assign 9 key commands to workspaces

Doesn't Logic also restrict you to 9 screenshots?

Tommy

03-09-2007, 11:05 AM

clonewar

03-09-2007, 11:13 AM

Well you can always go with an internal M-Audio card also, but that won't work for a laptop, and isn't M-Powered even more crippled then LE?

I don't do much music work on a laptop. I had a nice laptop rig setup and never used it outside of my studio so I sold it. I always thought that I'd be at the beach, or on a plane, or in Barnes and Noble working on some music, but in reality in those situations I'm always reading.

I just had this question address on the GS forum.. from what I understand Logic can have up to 99 screensets, all of them accessible through key commnds. To go past the first 9 you hold down the Option key and type the number of the screenset. Beautiful.

Ashermusic

03-09-2007, 12:51 PM

[QUOTE=JMDNYC

Doesn't Logic also restrict you to 9 screenshots?[/QUOTE]

If you mean screen sets, no, it allows 90.

JMDNYC

03-09-2007, 01:32 PM

Dear clonewar and Ashermusic,
Thanks for the screenset tip. That will come in handy.

And Tommy, can you confirm something I've heard? Is it possible for Nuendo to update several systems on a network? I thought ProTools was going to do this years ago when the bought the Rocket Network (remember that?) but nothing ever came of it. Working with other editors in a sound department could be alot easier if you could simply sync your session somehow.

JD

tomhartman

03-09-2007, 03:27 PM

I switched from Logic to Nuendo and never even felt the need for looking back. And the PT-using visitors are stunned when they see what I can do - even in real time - with audio. ASAIK, Apple will have to bite a serious apple if they ever want to outclass this beast...

tommy

I did the same...from Logic to Nuendo...Nuendo was far better. But in the end I went back to PT HD, which for me was better still. Most happy Nuendo users are on the PC, I think. On the Mac, it was buggy, and some of the most basic things you'd want to do you couldn't...like change the order of the tracks in the Mix window. In addition, there are no programs out there as of this post that come close to PT's automation, which is why it's used almost universally in movie post sound, etc.

TH

dnortana

03-10-2007, 08:28 AM

Alfalfa

03-10-2007, 09:53 AM

I think that studios could go the other direction. What if ProTools were to configure their own computer that runs ProTools? Korg did it with Oasys. Digidesign could do it with ProTools. Dedicated, reliable.

Meanwhile, ProTools could take more of the home user market with their LE and M-Powered offerings. The track limit just isn't an issue for me, personally, though I understand that it is for others. ProTools' MIDI seems to be the biggest hold up, though I find it adequate. The more MIDI improvements they make, the more compelling buying PT becomes. At least you don't have to defend why you use PT. :) Well, too much.

Daryl

03-10-2007, 04:22 PM

tomhartman

03-10-2007, 09:58 PM

It is argued that ProTools has clear market leadership with the pros.

It got there in two ways. One, it had the feature set that pros needed. Two, its unique selling proposition included specialized hardware that met a need that computers themselves were simply unable to meet.

Until now, perhaps. Today's computers have so much ooomph that the value of additional specialized hardware becomes increasingly questionable. Retaining market leadership in today's environment may require a paradigm shift?

Trond

It goes beyond the computers though.

The reason PT is stable and is much more reliable than native is that it only depends upon itself. If I use Logic, or Nuendo on the Mac, and there is a problem, you have to have hunt down where the problem is. Is it in the RME Fireface? Is it a bug in the program? Or, more likely, and much worse, is it a Coreaudio problem that Apple needs to address? Guess how high audio users are on Apple's "Need to take care of this.." list? ;)

With PT you can use the native power of todays computers, but you also have dependable horsepower in the hardware sitting there that doesn't depend on a third party interface, or a software scheme run by Apple. If you have a problem, you make one call....to Digi. I have called them about 4 or 5 times literally since I started using Pro Tools in the early 90s. In addition, Digi is quick to put out customer service updates (Try that with Steinberg or Apple) that often fix bugs before most people know they are even there. Digidesign tests their products with a vengeance, and the support I have had from them over the years has been superlative. All of this contributes to why it's the most popular on the pro level, not it's sound, or the fact that other platforms offer features that it doesn't. All programs offer features another program doesn't. Otherwise they all be the same program;)

TH

tomhartman

03-10-2007, 10:42 PM

Why?......

Most failures I've had with gear have been with gear that is cycled on and off constantly. I have not seen a lightbulb fail while turned on in my life, but plenty upon hitting that ON OFF switch;)

TH (Who does "sleep" the monitor at night however, and play "ocean surf" sounds through the monitor system throughout the night)

David Abraham

03-11-2007, 01:49 AM

It's tied to hardware, however, so it's not really the same thing as running Cubase for example.

doesn't have to be. a student/aspiring producer/engineer can get their hands on PT software at a very affordable price point...and though not as powerful as HD it's certainly comparable enough that it would be easier to graduate into an employment situation with a full blown PT rig.

Currently I recommend MBOX Mini for most of the beginners who ask my opinion.

clonewar

03-11-2007, 10:20 AM

Guess how high audio users are on Apple's "Need to take care of this.." list? ;)

You couldn't possibly be implying that Apple is more concerned with future iPhone users then pro audio users.. could you???

jjdpro

03-11-2007, 11:25 AM

"Besides, even if it were possible, Apple would have as much to lose as to gain by crushing PT"

That statement does not make sense..Besides the big studios and big post and production houses, 90 percent of the DAW market is and HAS been awaiting another "Viable" alernative to Pro Tools..

EMU/Ensoniq had such a product "Paris" but cut development thru a series of buy-offs..

With Digi lauching even more "Cripple -Ware" like the Digi-003 and the like, only Steinberge and Magix Samplitude and Sonar have remained "true" competitors to Pro Tools. But, still not the App hat most users want ..

There is an entire "middle" market that is not being served. That market wants to spend around 3-10k maybe even 15k for an d entire production DAW.
Digi and other DAW manufactuers are ignoring that market segment and is stedfast is engaging the "Bed_Room" recordist. Meaning , They will get the 3-10k in $299.00 increments..Sad, but true..

So, if Apple has such a product. Myself being a long time Logic user(PC), is great. Ihave stated for many many years, that Logic Audio, even in it's current state, is antiquated. It's user interface is old, boring. The mixer does not have a professional spit and polish. he whole enviormrnt thing is cool, but needs to be buried and replaced with "function " gui keys.

The audio engine was and still does compete with Pot Tools but not even in the same league as Neundo and Cubase or Samplitude. Steinberg has the market on audio and event editing . Such powerful and simplistic ~~~tionality , put's their DAWs in cals by themselves..

I say Horray Apple!!! For having such balls and disreguarding the "hollywood" composers types who have kept bith Logic and DP from becoming the DAWs hat they should become...

I'm a Logic user and i think i can safely say that among Logic-users, its pretty well accepted that PT is a far superior as an audio recorder/editor. OTOH Logic is untouchable as a compositional tool with its seamless integration of midi and its plethora of plugs and soft synths.
And on the Mac side, DP seems to sit somewhere in the middle.
As for the rumours, I never pay them too much attention. Besides, even if it were possible, Apple would have as much to lose as to gain by crushing PT.
JP

JonP

03-11-2007, 12:24 PM

Most failures I've had with gear have been with gear that is cycled on and off constantly. I have not seen a lightbulb fail while turned on in my life, but plenty upon hitting that ON OFF switch;)

I know just what you mean although its not something I've ever done. Doesn't it raise your electricity bill a fair bit though?. I'm not coming from some green angle here, I'm just intruiged as to wether the pros outway the cons.

tomhartman

03-11-2007, 03:19 PM

I know just what you mean although its not something I've ever done. Doesn't it raise your electricity bill a fair bit though?. I'm not coming from some green angle here, I'm just intruiged as to wether the pros outway the cons.

It's hard to tell about the bill without turning everything off every night and comparing...besides...we have a BIG family;) I'm sure it adds though.

The constant thermal thing can't be great either, getting cool, getting warm, getting cool, etc. Of late, let's see...I have several hard drives that give or take a day or so have been on for a couple of years, and the Mac and Digidesign hardware has been on for about a year now. There are a few times when I've had to shut down everything because of a storm (we are in Florida) but on average it's on 24/7. Also makes getting going in the morning a click or so away.

Funny...I had a Control 24 for about a year, and it was one of the early models which had power supply problems. Digi was replacing them free, and I kept reading about everyone getting their new consoles while mine was still working away, even though it had an early serial number. Finally, I turned it off one day, and when I turned it back on, it no longer worked. When I spoke with Digi they said "Did you keep it on all the time?" and when I said yes, they said that was why it hadn't gone sooner. ;)

TH

mts

03-12-2007, 03:57 PM

My top pick for "Pro Tools" killer (or at least wound) is the PC based Soundscape. Mackie did their best to destroy a fantastic product by marketing it as a 'Broadcast' system, but since Sydec bought it back they have now become part of the SSL family. Just to give you a taste of what's already happened, SSL has enabled their new EQs created for the C Series digital consoles to run 'latency free' on Soundscape - not a simulation or acoustic model... the real McCoy! The other big news is that a system with a Mixpander (dsp farm) will run your VSTs AND give you the ability to double your 'native' track count by simply installing an extra harddrive in your computer. At less than $5k US it's a serious solution - and no, I don't work for them... but as a studio owner/musician I always like to spread the word on brilliant gear. I've been a Soundscape user since 1994 and it has never once crashed... Windows has - but believe it or not Soundscape will carry on recording or playing back until you restart your computer (let's see you do that with Logic/Nuendo). mts

jjdpro

03-12-2007, 11:49 PM

Good points.. Also, I spoke with Sydec a few months back and i told them that their Mixer and editing gui interface needs some majors cosmetics tweaks...They responded: "We know" and have been told by SSL to make those comsetics changes..

So, yes, after Ensoniq's Paris demise with the Emu(Creative) buy-out, Sydec is a major bright light of hope.. I for one love DSp base DAWs.. They are smooth, fast, and sound big..

My top pick for "Pro Tools" killer (or at least wound) is the PC based Soundscape. Mackie did their best to destroy a fantastic product by marketing it as a 'Broadcast' system, but since Sydec bought it back they have now become part of the SSL family. Just to give you a taste of what's already happened, SSL has enabled their new EQs created for the C Series digital consoles to run 'latency free' on Soundscape - not a simulation or acoustic model... the real McCoy! The other big news is that a system with a Mixpander (dsp farm) will run your VSTs AND give you the ability to double your 'native' track count by simply installing an extra harddrive in your computer. At less than $5k US it's a serious solution - and no, I don't work for them... but as a studio owner/musician I always like to spread the word on brilliant gear. I've been a Soundscape user since 1994 and it has never once crashed... Windows has - but believe it or not Soundscape will carry on recording or playing back until you restart your computer (let's see you do that with Logic/Nuendo). mts