Bluthner Digital Model 1: First Impressions

[Steve Lucas]

Hi to everyone!
Although I have been here many times before, this is my first post. I believe that it will be of interest to quite a few other members of this Forum.
Two weeks ago I purchased the Bluthner Digital Model One and have had some time to go through it. I think that it is an amazing product with a ground breaking "realistic piano tone". I love the full warm deep bass tone and the incredible versatility of the Timbral Impulses (personally use the Classical Impulses). The sound of the soft piano layers makes this sampled piano a real joy to play.
I do have something to compare the BDMO to because I own several other piano libraries Akoustik Piano, Ivory incl. Fazioli, Pianoteq 2, PMI Bosendorfer 290, and The Grand 2.
I hope that this piano will give as much enjoyment to other musicians out there, as it has to me. Take care all. Ciao for now. Steve

[hebex]

Great to hear this. :) I´m interested in the Blüthner myself.

So how do you compare the Blüthner to the other pianos you mentioned?

[Aaron Dirk]

Hello Steve,

Really great to hear from you:)

Thanks for the user feedback! I've been seriously looking to get the Blüthner. I've got a ton of sampled pianos already and my favorite ones are the ones with really sweet low velocities and this is the impression I'm getting with this one. Also my hero Rachmaninoff played one, so I just gotta have it:D

Say hello to Maria for me

[ddarwin7]

Hello Steve:

Thanks for you input. Looks like you'r really enjoying this piano. I would also like to know how this compares to the rest of the libraries that you have. I also have many many piano libraries, and have also tried pianoteq and Truepiano. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks

Dd

[Steve Lucas]

Hi to all,

The Bluthner is a more mellow piano than most of the other listed pianos. This is the case with Bluthner pianos in general. However, is this one ever a beautiful, and very playable, mellow tone!! It is a huge package, and I have yet to try all the pianos that it has on offer. I have only had time to try a few, because once I get playing one, the time just flies by, and I realize that I have to get back to other tasks at hand. Time to just play is hard to come by. Variety is what I am after within all my pianos. This has tons of variety!!! More on this later.
The middle and upper ranges of the pianos that I did get trying, have a beautiful crisp and clear timbre. I especially love the sympathetic resonance of the upper strings. Very real! The bass is big, but not as heavy as some other pianos. I find some bass to be a bit harsh and abrasive. Not so with this bass. It is typical Bluthner. Bass without the abrasives!
I have not attempted any programming at all, but I am sure that if you desire a bigger, and heavier bass, it would be possible to obtain. The authors have been very precise and thorough with this piano. There is access to over 250 different pianos, right out of the box! This package has options within it that I have not come across before in any other virtual piano package. Things like Timbral Impulse Tonal Modeling, Custom Reverb Impulses, Proprietary Sustain Impulses. So, I am sure that one will be able to attain any sound that one would want. I will have to spend more time with this piano and all its possibilities. It is truly mind boggling! I can hardly wait to get trying all of the different tonal variations. The total package comes with Kontakt Player 2, so this gives even more tonal shaping possibilities to the pianos.
I would say that there is something for everyone within this piano package. There is a group for Classical, a group for Jazz, a group for the Blues, a group for R&B with piano sounds from New Orleans, a group for Pop/Rock, and historical pianos from over 100 years ago!
I hope that I have helped in some way. This is one deep piano library. Take care everyone. I am going back to play. Ciao for now. Steve Lucas

[studio64]

Sounds very promising

Anyone in the UK purchased yet?

regards

[hebex]

Yes, it sounds very promising indeed. :)

One problem that I´ve had with several high profile piano sample libraries, is that several samples are missing or won´t load properly.

Have you encountered that problem - or any other problem whatsoever - with the Blüthner?

Appreciate your feedback.

[Steve Lucas]

Hi hebex and all,

You asked if I have encountered any problems with missing samples or problems while loading the pianos? As yet, I am happy to say that I have not encountered any problems at all. Everything has went smoothly. I am always a little skeptical about the evenness of the sampling. Even this is very smooth from velocity to velocity. I have enjoyed this piano very much so far.
Take care fellow (and lady) musicians, Steve Lucas

[ddarwin7]

Thanks Steve for that detailed review and explanation. Yes indeed, it does sound like a fine instrument. I've searched the web for more reviews on this piano, and did not find much, I guess its still too new. Just a matter of time.

Thanks
Dd

[Raindog]

How is the cpu demand of the piano? I have quite a few piano libraries, but once it comes to involve K2´s convolution engine or scripts to imitate resonance behaviour my cpu regularly maxes out though my Mac is reasonably fast (2X 2.5 GHz G5, 4 GByte RAM, 100 GByte 7200 rpm harddisk).
I´m a bit afraid to buy a piano and playing it won´t work or only when I use a 17 ms latency on my RME audiointerface.
Thanks for any comments in this regards
Raindog

[hebex]

How is the cpu demand of the piano? I have quite a few piano libraries, but once it comes to involve K2´s convolution engine or scripts to imitate resonance behaviour my cpu regularly maxes out though my Mac is reasonably fast (2X 2.5 GHz G5, 4 GByte RAM, 100 GByte 7200 rpm harddisk).
I´m a bit afraid to buy a piano and playing it won´t work or only when I use a 17 ms latency on my RME audiointerface.
Thanks for any comments in this regards
Raindog

At KvR I read the following about the Blüthner:
"Concentrated enough to use on your laptop. Unlike many of the "mega-pianos" the BDMO was designed with size in mind. Concentrated and ultra-powerful, the Blüthner Digital Model One will run on a laptop – even with 12 layers pedal up and down (24+ stereo samples per note) and advanced convolution."

Sure would be nice to hear a user comment about this...

[Ernest]

Raindog

The cpu demand is very much lower than other commercial libraries such as Ivory. The convolution and samples are encoded/formated/processed in such a way to maximize the streaming (number of voices) and minimize the cpu load when convolution is activated. Native Instruments was even surprised and told Dan and I that the BDMO played perfectly on all their test computers - and wondered what we did.

The piano is about 4.2 Gig's in size and it works well with convolution on any G5 or a Intel mac laptop. I have tested BDMO on these type of machines and the piano plays perfectly when the TI SI and RI impulses are all active.

I would not recommend a G4. You can play the piano with the TI's on a G4 but when you also add the large Reverb Impulses and Sustain -you will stress the CPU.

Dan and I have tested it on a 2.4 and 2.8 P4 and all the features work perfectly using a small percentage of the CPU total resources even when all 3 convolution impulses (TI's RI's & SI's) are all active.

We also restricted the maximum length of the the bass tone to 13 seconds since there is nothing in the piano literature that requires notes longer than this. This significantly helps the cpu/hard disk requirement for this library (especially on the Mac) as well as obviously reducing the size of the file.



Ernest Cholakis
Numerical Sound/Pro Audio Vault
www.proaudiovault.com
www.numericalsound.com

[Ashermusic]

Raindog
We also restricted the maximum length of the the bass tone to 13 seconds since there is nothing in the piano literature that requires notes longer than this.

Ernest Cholakis
Numerical Sound/Pro Audio Vault
www.proaudiovault.com
www.numericalsound.com

Clearly you have not heard the last chord of the Beatles' "A Day In The Life" on "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" :)

[Saraswati]

My 2-year-old iMac G5 is limited to 2GB ram and cpu of 2GHz. It won't play the Emperor, the Old Lady, and even the pianos that come with K2, except for the most bare-bones versions. (No scripting, convolution, etc.) I wonder how it would do?

Saraswati

[onurbnosslin]

Hi guys,

Where could I find and buy this software? I presume it is VST compatible and can be used for instance within Cubase 4.

I played the real Blüthner piano as a kid and I loved it.

Anyone?
:|:
Keep swingin´
Bruno
bruno@icedance.hu
www.plattenseeurlaub.hu (http://www.plattenseeurlaub.hu)
www.maganszallashely.hu/krisztahaza (http://www.maganszallashely.hu/krisztahaza)

[Joseph Burrell]

The piano is a Kontakt 2 Player VST instrument. It can be loaded as a VST in Cubase.

It can be purchased here: http://www.proaudiovault.com

[Ernest]

Ashermusic

Well I quess you can't play "A Day In The Life" at your gig's with the BDMO ! I stand corrected. However note that there were 5 people playing 3 pianos in order to get that tone. John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Ringo Starr, George Martin, and Mal Evans, simultaneously playing an E-major chord on three different pianos.

Maybe we will have to release a Blüthner Digital Model Three X and record 3 pianos simultaneous - what do you think maybe there is a market for that ...

With this piano you can select the chorus and the longest RI which T72 that would extend the length/thichness of the sound also purchase the Pure Space Reverb Impulse http://www.numericalsound.com/purespace.html (has 12 second RI's) that could add considerable amount of time. Then add the air conditioning hum for the final 15 seconds because that is what you hear at the end (as well as a lot of hiss) - possibilities ...


Ernest

[onurbnosslin]

The piano is a Kontakt 2 Player VST instrument. It can be loaded as a VST in Cubase.

It can be purchased here: http://www.proaudiovault.com

Thank you so much for the info.

Keep swingin´
Bruno:|:

[Ashermusic]

Ashermusic

Well I quess you can't play "A Day In The Life" at your gig's with the BDMO ! I stand corrected. However note that there were 5 people playing 3 pianos in order to get that tone. John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Ringo Starr, George Martin, and Mal Evans, simultaneously playing an E-major chord on three different pianos.

Maybe we will have to release a Blüthner Digital Model Three X and record 3 pianos simultaneous - what do you think maybe there is a market for that ...

With this piano you can select the chorus and the longest RI which T72 that would extend the length/thichness of the sound also purchase the Pure Space Reverb Impulse http://www.numericalsound.com/purespace.html (has 12 second RI's) that could add considerable amount of time. Then add the air conditioning hum for the final 15 seconds because that is what you hear at the end (as well as a lot of hiss) - possibilities ...


Ernest

LOL, Ernest!

[Raindog]

I have one more question regarding the "real piano" behaviour of the Blüthner Digital Piano: Does the Blüthner offer repedalling which means that when pressing and releasing a chord and IMMEDIATELY after that pressing the sustain pedal you can hear the resonances of the previously released chord.
This would be very nice as it happens quite often during a piano performance and contributes to the realism of a sampled piano.

I´m actually quite tempted to buy the library although I didn´t want to buy another sample based piano library as I own quite a few already. All the libraries sound great (Worra´s Black Grand and White Grand, Vintaudio´s Yamaha C7, PMI Boesendorfer and Emperor as well as ArtVista´s Virtual Grand) but when you use additional convolution for resonance and/or reverb or scripting to add resonance and repedalling I have lots of technical problems with cracks and dropouts especially when using low latencies on my 2x2.5 GHz Mac. This may be due to the performance of Kontakt 2 on Macs but set the reason aside it isn´t funny when you just want to play piano. Only the Virtual Grand from Artvista behaves well so it´s the one I use most.
From what I read in this thread the Blüthner seems to be cpu friendly as well, this makes it very attractive.

Best regards
Raindog

[domi]

Hi all

I am in the same situation (a few piano libs and quite tempted by BDMO). Sound of the library is great, but I would definitely appreciate some classical demo mp3 from a listener perspective. The resonnance of the higher pitch is really beautiful, but how does it work when you attempt to build a more distant perspective ?

Domi

[Raindog]

I have one more question regarding the "real piano" behaviour of the Blüthner Digital Piano: Does the Blüthner offer repedalling which means that when pressing and releasing a chord and IMMEDIATELY after that pressing the sustain pedal you can hear the resonances of the previously released chord.
This would be very nice as it happens quite often during a piano performance and contributes to the realism of a sampled piano.



So DOES the Bluthner do repedalling? Just in case that my original question was covered by all my wordflow afterwards :)
Regards
Raindog

[Ernest]

Raindog

You will hear a smooth decay of the pedal down notes even after you re-pedal but you must increase the release pedal decay rate (user programable knob) more that the default length of about 200 milli-seconds you can program this to over a 1 second decay. A higher value will allow you to hear the sound of the previous sustain chord decaying even after re-pedaling.

Ernest

[Ernest]

domi

OK here is a distant perspective demo. This piano demo is the first 39 bars of Eric Satie composition Gymnopedie No. 1 performed on the Blüthner Digital Model One that I sequenced. This is the default patch with the original piano tone (no equalization or Timbral Impulses) and in a large Concert Hall included in the BDMO - reverb impulse selected was "R70 Clear".

http://www.proaudiovault.com/Gympd1_ProAudioVault.mp3

Ernest

[domi]

Many thanks to Ernest for that beautiful and deep demo. I really like that sound. In fact, after careful listening to the demos on the site, I already ordered BDMO. I am really pleased because that new mp3 performs exactly like I hoped.

Congratulations

Domi

[dandean]

I don't think anyone has touched on this feature included in the Blüthner Digital Model One yet, but we have included full variable sustain pedal implementation. The greater the pressure on the VSP, the greater the sustain produced in the instrument. It is really quite amazing, especially with our Discrete Sustain samples. Also, the feel of the pedal is much more natural than a typical on/off sustain pedal.

Dan Dean
www.dandeanpro.com
www.proaudiovault.com

[Ernest]

Here are some thoughts (first impressions) on the Blüthner Digital Model One by Joel Bruce Wallach who recently purchase it but does not posts on forums. - Ernest

The BDMO’s warm emotive sound inspires and cajoles new musical ideas from me. These are playable sounds that I can feel, and this is an important distinction in sampled sounds. Many sounds on the market are interesting -- they tickle the ear-- but few electronically generated sounds activate the living creative feeling in one’s body and mind. We have always wanted electronic instruments to provide inspiration, but the soul of music often gets lost in the electronic circuits. ~

Ordinarily I disregard techno advertising terms like “proprietary algorithms”, but I’ll make an exception here-- these algorithms may well explain the feeling that I’m really in that spacious environment with that historic piano.

I believe the feeling activated by the BDMO truly reflects a deeper quality of programming that the player can truly sense, leading to a greater depth of creative expression. The BDMO’s richness is most evident in the subtle timbres. Contrast this with most competitive products-- bright and zingy timbres that seem exciting at first, but produce aural fatigue over time.

I’m grateful to Ernest and Dan for creating this inspiring multi-faceted piano-- I’m looking forward to enjoying the BDMO in all its permutations. ~

Regards,

Joel Bruce Wallach

[Raindog]

Here are some thoughts (first impressions) on the Blüthner Digital Model One by Joel Bruce Wallach who recently purchase it but does not posts on forums. - Ernest

The BDMO’s warm emotive sound inspires and cajoles new musical ideas from me. These are playable sounds that I can feel, and this is an important distinction in sampled sounds. Many sounds on the market are interesting -- they tickle the ear-- but few electronically generated sounds activate the living creative feeling in one’s body and mind. We have always wanted electronic instruments to provide inspiration, but the soul of music often gets lost in the electronic circuits. ~

Ordinarily I disregard techno advertising terms like “proprietary algorithms”, but I’ll make an exception here-- these algorithms may well explain the feeling that I’m really in that spacious environment with that historic piano.

I believe the feeling activated by the BDMO truly reflects a deeper quality of programming that the player can truly sense, leading to a greater depth of creative expression. The BDMO’s richness is most evident in the subtle timbres. Contrast this with most competitive products-- bright and zingy timbres that seem exciting at first, but produce aural fatigue over time.

I’m grateful to Ernest and Dan for creating this inspiring multi-faceted piano-- I’m looking forward to enjoying the BDMO in all its permutations. ~

Regards,

Joel Bruce Wallach

Just what I am looking for. A piano that FEELS right. I hope to have it soon in my sensitive fingers (once I find someone to finance me the beast after my wife took my credit card :) )
Raindog

[Iplayjazz]

I too am very interested in this library. Any chance of someone running xav93 's Skylark demo midi file through this library to here another example of the kind of playing I would be using this for.

PS-- What is the HD space for this total library? Are we talking about 100 gb or more?

thanks

alan

[Ernest]

Alan

The library is 4.2 GibBytes in length. Did xav93 ever post the Skylark midi file ?

Ernest

[Ernest]

Alan

Here is the Skylark demo with the Büthner Digital Model One. The 65% dynamic range patch was used. I added a little room reverb RI number 13 was chosen - mixed in at -5 db relative to the dry level. Note that the reverb and mixing was all done inside the Kontakt 2 player. This demo is 9 meg's in length the link is http://www.proaudiovault.com/Skylark_Dyn65_Ri13_5db.mp3

Ernest

[Iplayjazz]

Ernest,

Wow, thanks for doing this, and so quickly as well. That is very nice of you, and it will hopefully help others(and me) hear another example of this piano library to aid in decision-making.

Alan

[xav93]

Hi all!

Just to say, when you say "xav93 's Skylark demo midi file", keep in mind i'm not the player. I don't remember who is, but it was someone from this forum.

About the sound of this piano itself, it's quite a bit dull or downy. As if the decay was too short, as if there was a good attack, but not the rest (lack of full bodied sound). Does the velocity range of the midi file has been set to really fit this piano?
In comparison, i prefer the render made with the Black Grand (http://jazzphoton.free.fr/Demos%20mp3/Skylark%20Black%20Grand%20v2.03%20(kontakt)%20by%2 0XB.mp3). Dynamic range is better used and the decay is good.

Xav

[xav93]

I listened to "Aria BDMO Original" demo from proaudiovault site and it sounds far better than what i heard thru skylark demo.

[domi]

I do prefer the BDMO skylark, just for the reason you dislike it: for the soft sounding of the low velocities, which are less "tiring" to my ears that the more or less always brilliant sound. But I agree that the velocities of the sylark midifile could be perhaps somewhat extended to higher values for the BDMO.
Nevetheless, this shows how subjective the perception of the sound is! Like green colors that other people see blue and so on.

Dominique

[hebex]

About the sound of this piano itself, it's quite a bit dull or downy. As if the decay was too short, as if there was a good attack, but not the rest (lack of full bodied sound).


Yeah, I must agree with this. It seems to be the problem with several libraries I´ve tried/heard that the decay is short and thin. Is there a way to get more body with the Blüthner?
Any mp3 around showing it?

[Ernest]

xav93 and hebex

Your comments about the attack to decay ratio - good attack, "but not the rest (lack of full bodied sound)". It seems like both of you want a compressed sound for each piano note - which gives a larger than life sound - fair enough - it is possible that some other piano libraries that you are using as an implicit reference have added compression in the actual samples.

Dan and I did not use any compression on the samples we opted for a natural acoustic decay. The user can always add compression to the BDMO piano in the mixing/post production stage in order to adjust the attack/decay balance of the piano tone to suite a particular style of music.

The important point to remember is that you cannot undo compression in samples - if you have a compressed piano sample library then there is no way to undo the embedded compression if you later decide you want a more natural piano tone. We feel that the uncompressed attack/decay components gives the user more options to adjust the piano tone dynamics after the recording process (or rendering of a midi file).

The "bit dull" sound of the lower velocity levels is exactly the sound of a real world piano playing pppp. We went to the trouble to record and add these super soft layer because they add to the realism of a sampled piano. Most if not all sampled and digital pianos on the market do not contain these timbres. Piano player do use these lower layers more often than you think - remember the faster one plays the "lighter" the touch has to be because there is less time to fully strike down on a note without adding undue delay to the upcoming notes and or the tempo of the performance.

Dan and I knew when developing the BDMO that everyone has different concepts on what constitutes a desirable tone - it does makes sense to add these layers and let the user decide how many of them required for a piano performance. In your situation it sound like you both want less timbral variation in the piano tone as the dynamics change from from pppp to fff. This is easy to do - simply make sure that the midi velocities are not lower than 60-80 and the lower layers timbres will not be active. If you need a larger dynamic range with less timbre choose the 85% or 100% patches.

Ernest

[Raindog]

I do prefer the BDMO skylark, just for the reason you dislike it: for the soft sounding of the low velocities, which are less "tiring" to my ears that the more or less always brilliant sound. But I agree that the velocities of the sylark midifile could be perhaps somewhat extended to higher values for the BDMO.
Nevetheless, this shows how subjective the perception of the sound is! Like green colors that other people see blue and so on.

Dominique

Same here. I would by no means describe the sound as dull but as intimate. It is such a matter of taste what one´s personal preference for a piano sound is but I must say that the Bluethner is just what I personally like in a piano sound. No harsh overtones and these wonderful ppp sound which may be due to the ppp(p) samples the developers have added.
Just another opinion
Raindog

[Raindog]

Hi Ernest,
could you explain your concept of dynamic scaling once more (i.e. the difference between the patches with 100%, 85% and 55% respectively). Maybe that is the reason for the difference between the demos.
Thanks
Raindog

[xav93]

xav93 and hebex

Your comments about the attack to decay ratio - good attack, "but not the rest (lack of full bodied sound)". It seems like both of you want a compressed sound for each piano note - which gives a larger than life sound - fair enough - it is possible that some other piano libraries that you are using as an implicit reference have added compression in the actual samples.
I don't play only sampled pianos and my reference is not one piano particularly. But it depends on the way the piano was harmonized, the tenderness or the hardness of the hammer... and IMO, decay is too short with THIS skykark demo (tastes and colors are not the same for everybody...)


The "bit dull" sound of the lower velocity levels is exactly the sound of a real world piano playing pppp. We went to the trouble to record and add these super soft layer because they add to the realism of a sampled piano. Most if not all sampled and digital pianos on the market do not contain these timbres. Piano player do use these lower layers more often than you think - remember the faster one plays the "lighter" the touch has to be because there is less time to fully strike down on a note without adding undue delay to the upcoming notes and or the tempo of the performance.
Ok, but in this case, skylark midifile may not fit such low velocities. It's a balad, but not played as intimate. I don't feel any decay problem when i listen to example 2 or 3 or Gymnopedie No. 1 or Aria from your site. You know it : we can't 100% fit a midifile to a piano that has been played for another. And the inverse is also real : a midifile played to fit the BDMO may not fit others because even if it has many many layers, they are not mapped the same. Think about Keith Jarrett who, before his concert, chooses his piano between few available and then adjust his playing, the speed and/or the density, to fit the concert hall's resonance. What he plays is what fits for this piano at this moment at this place.


Dan and I knew when developing the BDMO that everyone has different concepts on what constitutes a desirable tone - it does makes sense to add these layers and let the user decide how many of them required for a piano performance. In your situation it sound like you both want less timbral variation in the piano tone as the dynamics change from from pppp to fff. This is easy to do - simply make sure that the midi velocities are not lower than 60-80 and the lower layers timbres will not be active. If you need a larger dynamic range with less timbre choose the 85% or 100% patches.

That's why i love the TBO : because of its rich timbral dynamic from pppp to ffff! For example to play left hand very softly while right hand really attacks melody and solo. And I set my master keyboard (and not the preset) to use all this range naturally, not the inverse.

[David Ferris]

I've now heard three renderings of Skylark - BDMO, Black Grand, and PMI Old Lady. Despite the short decay which Xavier mentioned, to my ears the warmth of the BDMO rendering of Skylark makes it the most enjoyable to listen to.

I suspect that if the BDMO version had been recorded from a live performance, its dynamic range would have created a different impression.

[Ernest]

Raindog

Here is a detail explanation of the dynamic scaling with an audio example.

I posted an mp3 example http://www.proaudiovault.com/BDMO_DynamicExample1.mp3 in order to illustrate the variable dynamic range patches of the BDMO. In the demo there are 4 separate note groups each with all 12 tones or layers going from the pppp to fff.

The first sample group is C1 (lowest C on the piano) rendered with the 45% dynamic range patch (Bluthner_45_Classical.nki). Look at the level of the 1st tone in this example with a sound editor the value is -13.37 db and the 12th sample value in this group (fff) is 0 db. So in this case the dynamic range is 13.37 db.

The second group is still a C1 but it was created with a 100% dynamic range patch(Bluthner_100_Classical.nki). The 1st sample level is much lower -29.62 db and the 12th sample (fff) is 0 db so the dynamic range of the 2nd group is 29.62 db.

In case 2 the 29.62 db range is the actual real world dynamic range of the Blüthner Model One 9 foot grand piano at Skywalker Sound (which was the piano we used to make this library). The first example has the same note but with about half the dynamic range - thus the 45% patch. The 45% patch was designed for contemporary/ensemble recordings where the piano needs to have more presence. Note that you cannot compress the 2nd group 100% dynamic range patch) and in effect duplicate the natural clean sound of the 1st group (45% dynamic range patch). The 45% patch had about half the dynamic range but notice that there is no noise in the sample - it is as clean as the 100% dynamic range - this is one of the reasons why Dan and I feel that our noise reduction is state of the art.

In group 3 and 4 the note is now C7. In these cases the range is different in group 3 (45% dynamic range patch) the softest note is -24.06 db and the loudest is 0 db. In group 4 (100% dynamic range patch) the softest note is 53.28 db. As you can see and clearly hear the dynamic range of the upper register of the piano is much greater than the lower register.

In the above example we looked at 2 notes of the Blüthner Model One Grand Piano. Now to accurately capture the dynamic's of a piano a sampler/patch has to encode the unique dynamic range which is different for all 88 notes. This is what was done in the BDMO.

The 100% dynamic range patches are the full real world dynamics of a grand piano. But in recorded music there obviously is a requirement to have less dynamic range which is why we have the 45, 55, 65, 75, 85 and 100% patches.
To the best of my knowledge no other piano sampled library has accurately encoded the real world dynamic range of all 88 notes in a piano and also offered scaled dynamic patches that accurately scale the unique character of each note's dynamic range but with less range. Compression could never give you this.

The higher dynamic range in the upper register of the piano is one of the important characteristic for expressiveness because it enables a player's touch to be clearly heard in a performance.

For some who are interested I wrote an article in Sound On Sound - DVD #2 (Nov. 2005) on this subject of accurate dynamic range in samplers that included over 20 sound examples.


Ernest

[Ernest]

xav93

Yes I do generally agree with your comment

"we can't 100% fit a midi file to a piano that has been played for another. And the inverse is also real : a midi file played to fit the BDMO may not fit others because even if it has many many layers, they are not mapped the same."

I would add that your observation is more relevant for 4-8 layer piano libraries because in mapping 4/8 layers samples there will on average be a change in the tone every 31/15 velocity units. This is quite large so to cover the entire range of a piano tone there will inevitably be abrupt jumps in timbre as the player/midi file goes from pppp to fff. Depending on where these transitions are placed - this will definitely impact on the overall sound of a 4/8 layer piano library triggered by a midi file.

When you use a 12 layer piano library the change in sample occurs on average every 11 velocity units so the mapping become less of a factor - what is more important is the staring tone (pppp) and how the tone smoothly evolves in timbre through the layers to fff.

I rendered the Skylark with the 45% dynamic range patch - does this sound better to your ears ?

http://www.proaudiovault.com/Skylark_45_Ri13_5db.mp3




Ernest

[Raindog]

xav93

Yes I do generally agree with your comment

"we can't 100% fit a midi file to a piano that has been played for another. And the inverse is also real : a midi file played to fit the BDMO may not fit others because even if it has many many layers, they are not mapped the same."

I would add that your observation is more relevant for 4-8 layer piano libraries because in mapping 4/8 layers samples there will on average be a change in the tone every 31/15 velocity units. This is quite large so to cover the entire range of a piano tone there will inevitably be abrupt jumps in timbre as the player/midi file goes from pppp to fff. Depending on where these transitions are placed - this will definitely impact on the overall sound of a 4/8 layer piano library triggered by a midi file.

When you use a 12 layer piano library the change in sample occurs on average every 11 velocity units so the mapping become less of a factor - what is more important is the staring tone (pppp) and how the tone smoothly evolves in timbre through the layers to fff.

I rendered the Skylark with the 45% dynamic range patch - does this sound better to your ears ?

http://www.proaudiovault.com/Skylark_45_Ri13_5db.mp3




Ernest

This demo shows how versatile the piano is soundwise. Excellent. Counting the money......
regards
Raindog

[xav93]

This sounds smoother and yet has a good timbral dynamic. Great!

(Ernest, I emailed you about some other small details...)

Xav

[dandean]

I've now heard three renderings of Skylark - BDMO, Black Grand, and PMI Old Lady. Despite the short decay which Xavier mentioned, to my ears the warmth of the BDMO rendering of Skylark makes it the most enjoyable to listen to.

I suspect that if the BDMO version had been recorded from a live performance, its dynamic range would have created a different impression.
Hi David,

Yes, this is correct. A player will "calibrate" his playing style naturally to the instrument. This is similar to a pianist adjusting playing style to the actions of different acoustic pianos - they will all have a different touch.

Thanks,
Dan Dean
www.dandeanpro.com
www.proaudiovault.com

[Raindog]

I finally made the move and actually BOUGHT the Bluethner (instead of posting about it only).

First impression: Amazing
Second impression: Even more amazing

The piano hopped over the Atlantic Ocean (Canada -> Germany) in less than a week. Well done

Installation on my G5 Mac was painless , the NI licensing control center worked flawlessly as usual. It is my currently preffered license process, no dongles, just a working internet connection necessary.

The piano takes about 4.1 GByte on the harddisk (which is not that much). The Kontakt player just ADDS the Bluethner to any excisitng Kontakt player libraries (JABB and Chris Hein Guitars in my case) that´s very comfortable.

The sound: Well, let´s put it that way. Don´t put your earphones on if you want to avoid some lasting impressions around your ears after playing this piano for several hours :)
I never owned a better defined (I mean tonal and in space) piano so far. The dynamics are impressive (from pppp to fff) but you have to adjust your keyboard thoroughly to deal with it (though you can always take one of the 65% or 45% dynamics which is more what you know from other piano libraries. CPU load is reasonable no dropouts on my G5 Mac even with extensive arpeggios.

The highs are singing (without ringing) the basses are deep and warm and not muddy. You can even play bass chords, great sound.

I haven´t touched most of the Impulse responses (timbral, sustain and reverb) as there are far too many for one musician´s life. But the ones I´ve touched do significantly alter the piano sound. This means you don´t buy ONE piano but many (including a very nice timbral impulse from an upright Bluethner.

Bottom line: This is an impressive piano and it will definitely substitute most of my other libraries (though I won´t delete the PMI Boesendorfer and ArtVista´s VG from my harddisk).

Best regards
Raindog

[dandean]

I finally made the move and actually BOUGHT the Bluethner (instead of posting about it only).

First impression: Amazing
Second impression: Even more amazing

The piano hopped over the Atlantic Ocean (Canada -> Germany) in less than a week. Well done

Installation on my G5 Mac was painless , the NI licensing control center worked flawlessly as usual. It is my currently preffered license process, no dongles, just a working internet connection necessary.

The piano takes about 4.1 GByte on the harddisk (which is not that much). The Kontakt player just ADDS the Bluethner to any excisitng Kontakt player libraries (JABB and Chris Hein Guitars in my case) that´s very comfortable.

The sound: Well, let´s put it that way. Don´t put your earphones on if you want to avoid some lasting impressions around your ears after playing this piano for several hours :)
I never owned a better defined (I mean tonal and in space) piano so far. The dynamics are impressive (from pppp to fff) but you have to adjust your keyboard thoroughly to deal with it (though you can always take one of the 65% or 45% dynamics which is more what you know from other piano libraries. CPU load is reasonable no dropouts on my G5 Mac even with extensive arpeggios.

The highs are singing (without ringing) the basses are deep and warm and not muddy. You can even play bass chords, great sound.

I haven´t touched most of the Impulse responses (timbral, sustain and reverb) as there are far too many for one musician´s life. But the ones I´ve touched do significantly alter the piano sound. This means you don´t buy ONE piano but many (including a very nice timbral impulse from an upright Bluethner.

Bottom line: This is an impressive piano and it will definitely substitute most of my other libraries (though I won´t delete the PMI Boesendorfer and ArtVista´s VG from my harddisk).

Best regards
Raindog

Hello Raindog,

Thank you very much for your comments. I also love the Bluthner upright timbal impulse that Ernest captured from Henry Mancini's upright model, captured in L.A.. Word has it that Mancini used this piano in most of his recordings rather than a grand piano. One of my favorites.

Thanks,
Dan Dean
www.dandeanpro.com
www.proaudiovault.com

[Musieck]

After listening to demos I must say this is most subtle and beautiful sampled piano to-day.

I would like to buy it, but after calculating tax+VAT in my country (Poland, which is in EU but still has it's own 22% VAT) whole cost will be about 450 $

Hence the question:

1. do you plan to have European (EU) distributor, or
2. do you plan to provide digital download for high bandwith users

I think that many folks from some EU countries might have same issues, so I encourage you to look into this and take steps that obviosly can increase your sales.

All the best!

[hebex]

After listening to demos I must say this is most subtle and beautiful sampled piano to-day.

I would like to buy it, but after calculating tax+VAT in my country (Poland, which is in EU but still has it's own 22% VAT) whole cost will be about 450 $

Hence the question:

1. do you plan to have European (EU) distributor, or
2. do you plan to provide digital download for high bandwith users

I think that many folks from some EU countries might have same issues, so I encourage you to look into this and take steps that obviosly can increase your sales.

All the best!

I´m myself based in Europe and I think Musieck has a point here...

[Raindog]

I´m myself based in Europe and I think Musieck has a point here...

I´m myself based in Europe (Germany). I payed exactly 299 $ plus shipping. No VAT, no tax (it´s a DVD and you don´t pay tax for a license). So don´t worry.
Regards
Raindog

[GunJinn]

I'm based in Poland, too. Cze Musieck :)

It is real pain for us to order from US or Canada. Customs aren't that high, but they ALWAYS apply VAT and different taxes to everything that exceeds about 100 USD. Only way is to ask someone to send it like a "gift" (declared value "0" or just the cost of DVD or CD), but many companies out there won't do that.

I've ordered Jeff Rona CDs some time ago, and was not only waiting like 2 weeks more (customs) but also paid more than 50% of declared price in taxes. Not very positive expierience.

That's why I prefer to buy in EU (German or UK distributors somehow manage to have prices almost similar to those in US), or, like Musieck suggested, digital download is another good option to buy US made software.

All in all, I second that, EU distributor or simple but convincing d/l would be nice.

P.S. Then I will buy this wonderful instrument, as well..

[Raindog]

I'm based in Poland, too. Cze Musieck :)

It is real pain for us to order from US or Canada. Customs aren't that high, but they ALWAYS apply VAT and different taxes to everything that exceeds about 100 USD. Only way is to ask someone to send it like a "gift" (declared value "0" or just the cost of DVD or CD), but many companies out there won't do that.

I've ordered Jeff Rona CDs some time ago, and was not only waiting like 2 weeks more (customs) but also paid more than 50% of declared price in taxes. Not very positive expierience.

That's why I prefer to buy in EU (German or UK distributors somehow manage to have prices almost similar to those in US), or, like Musieck suggested, digital download is another good option to buy US made software.

All in all, I second that, EU distributor or simple but convincing d/l would be nice.

P.S. Then I will buy this wonderful instrument, as well..

I would mail the developers. They are very nice and responsive. I´m sure they´ll work something out so that Polish customs will leave you some money to feed the cat :)
best regards
Raindog

PS: The DVD comes as a DVD not as software. So you normally won´t have to pay customs (5$ value)