An Example of Garritan Choir

[Samantha Penigar]

I just received my copy of the Finale 2008 upgrade. I had to experiment with the Choir first. Here is a very small sample. The song is "We Shall Behold Him." It was recorded by Dottie Rambo and Vickie Winnans.

I'm loving the choir!

You will need to click on my PowerProfile page and scroll down to the bottom for it.

[Leaf]

Wow it sounds great, lots of possibilities with that. :samurai: Can't wait to get 2008. What other surprises did it have in it?

[rbowser-]

Hi, Samantha - I know Leaf was able to find it at your site, but I couldn't. There's So much there on a very long page, and I couldn't find anything at the bottom where you asked us to look.

If you could post the direct link to this one file, that would be great.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[rpearl]

Randy,

You are clicking on the myspace link - try the one below it.

Samantha - too short!! It sounds great, though...

Looking forward to hearing more.

All the best,

[rbowser-]

Ah! Thanks, Ron--I got confused there.

Hmm, someone else posted something recently that included the new Finale choir samples, and this had the same effect--I can't tell it's a choir! It sounds like a soft organ of some sort. And I can't tell if these examples are using a Lot of reverb, or if the samples just have that indistinct, murky quality?

On the other thread I'm thinking of, it was explained that these were early prototypes, still just sketched in, and not indicative of the Garritan Choir library still yet to come.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[diligamus]

Beautiful, Samantha, just beautiful! Not having the Garritan Choir, I am doing some experiments with Papelmedia Choir and Florestan Choir Aahs. They are Soundfonts. I will post at some point if I think my experiment is worth listening to, even if only for the sake of comparison.

[rbowser-]

Hello, Stephen

Glad to see your post--I was beginning to think I was really whacked in the way I'm hearing these choir demos. I wish I could think of the other post I'm thinking of--but it was said on that thread that these Finale samples really can't be considered what's happening with the real Choir program coming.

What Samantha recorded is very pretty, and I certainly don't mean to take away from that. It's just sounding so organ-like, as the other demo did. Choirs in old hardware synths were much better sounding than this. I have a little remembered module called the Korg Symphony Orchestra Module which has a very good choir I still use on occassion--and that unit is almost 20 years old!

We haven't heard a lot of detail about what's being developed, but like most people, I'm sure hoping a formant shaping ability is part of the upcoming Choir, so that lyrics can be sung distinctly.

Meanwhile, we have Roberto's fantastic demo posted awhile back where he used a Vocoder plugin to shape the sound of choir samples--that was excellent!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[Samantha Penigar]

This could be the results of experimenting with both Oohs and Aahs combined. This not an oritional composition, but an note for note copying of a hymn.

I had just received my copy of the upgrade. I'd been up all night writing music. UPS delivered about 9:30 AM and I work until about 1:30 PM.

This sample make me want the full version. I know it will be much better. Again, this was a blending of Oohs and Aahs. I'll try them independly to see it that makes a difference. Overall, I love this new addition to Finale.

[rpearl]

Beautiful, Samantha, just beautiful! Not having the Garritan Choir, I am doing some experiments with Papelmedia Choir and Florestan Choir Aahs. They are Soundfonts. I will post at some point if I think my experiment is worth listening to, even if only for the sake of comparison.

Those are pretty good - especially the solo soprano in the GM set! For some reason it is the Synth Voice (#54).

[diligamus]

Hi, Samantha and Ron, here as promised is my first experiment with the Papelmedia/Florestan Aah Choirs:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=705642

Scroll down till you see the one called Christ the King.

[Samantha Penigar]

They sound great. I can't wait for the full Garritan Choir.

[rbowser-]

Thanks, Diligamus - Nice recording and your Sound Font choir experiment is very successful, I think. They are sounding much more authentic than what we're hearing in these new Finale voices. I was finding myself wanting the choir more up front in the mix, but it was still very effective.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[Samantha Penigar]

Part of the problem with what I posted is that the saprano voice will not sound below E4. The pick-up measure and the first two full measures has the melody. I placed the saprano voice an octave higher and it sounded quite unnatural. All things considered at least I know I would love to have the full version of the Garritan choir.

[AlanPerkins]

All this has certainly whet my appetite for the choir!

[rpearl]

Hi, Samantha and Ron, here as promised is my first experiment with the Papelmedia/Florestan Aah Choirs:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=705642

Scroll down till you see the one called Christ the King.

Thanks D - depending on what you are using, there are ways of getting the chorus to crescendo/decrescendo. Do try the solo soprano, though!

[rbowser-]

Hello again, Samantha

Thank you for explaining what part of the problem is with your short choir demo--It indeed sounded to me like a high synth voice was part of the mix, now I understand that you did have the Soprano playing/singing a full octave higher.

How can the lowest note for Soprano be so short of the mark? That's odd.

Ron--I didn't understand your new post, "...there are ways of getting the chorus to crescendo/decrescendo..." - I didn't know anyone was having a problem with that--?

I still wish we could hear a more straight, unprocessed demo of these Finale samples--I'm not at all sure how much of what I'm hearing is due to the recording/processing and how much is due to the nature of the samples themselves.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[dermod]

A slightly processed sound is probably unavoidable with cross-fading samples, which is the Garritan trade mark. The advantages are huge. From earlier posts, I get the impression some people are asking the Garritan choir to be able to have a non-vibrato voice option. The only way to oblige is to go the Strad route and have a straight tone with (presumably) an LFO filtering process to introduce vibrato. The Finale demo (composition merits aside) did not sound good to me. Ultimately, if Garritan can produce a well balanced choir with solo voices covering all normal ranges capable of articulating words at least reasonably well, it will be a world beater. If not, then best step back for a few years. In the meantime Papelmedia currently downloads at less than 20 euros the whole lot.

[qccowboy]

well, I posted another brief sample of the Garritan choral sound from Finale 2008 on my website, just the opening of the choral section of the Kyrie and the first page of the Qui Tollis from Bach's B minor mass.

(apologies for cutting them short)

http://www.dosblanc.ca/music/examples/bach_sample.mp3

I too find that they sound a bit (well, a LOT) "synthy".
bt it's still nice to have them in Finale.

As with all my musical samples, this is the score, as published, with a few minor modifications here and there (i didn't agree with some of the string bowings!), played back (played bach?) directly through Finale 2008.

[rbowser-]

Hi, Michel--Thanks for the "play Bach" - :)

These choir samples are sounding a bit more natural in your recording. I couldn't detect their presence for awhile, until you brought their volume up, and then at least I could hear that they are human voices. They do have that overly sharp attack like "voices" in earlier synth or sampler versions of choirs, lending the unreal "Clockwork Orange" flavored machine-fun effect.

It's a hard nut to crack, taking the complex sound of a choir and getting an acceptable, let alone convincing effect from them.

Thanks for this.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[diligamus]

Thanks Randy. I see what you mean now that you mention it and I listen to it again. I'll revisit that in the full 27 minute version.

Ron -- I did use quite a bit of CC7 in there -- maybe even more is called for?

qccowboy, thanks for posting this example of the Garritan Choir. It's interesting to compare all these different choir sounds.

[Samantha Penigar]

well, I posted another brief sample of the Garritan choral sound from Finale 2008 on my website, just the opening of the choral section of the Kyrie and the first page of the Qui Tollis from Bach's B minor mass.

(apologies for cutting them short)

http://www.dosblanc.ca/music/examples/bach_sample.mp3

I too find that they sound a bit (well, a LOT) "synthy".
bt it's still nice to have them in Finale.

As with all my musical samples, this is the score, as published, with a few minor modifications here and there (i didn't agree with some of the string bowings!), played back (played bach?) directly through Finale 2008.

This is a much better rendering that the one I hastly submitted. The vocals really sound like the human voice.

[Markleford]

The Finale choir samples surely aren't representative of a 'Garritan Choir' product.

It wouldn't make sense to give that away for free, now would it?

- m

[rbowser-]

I'm sure you're right, Markleford

But this:

"...It wouldn't make sense to give that away for free, now would it?..."

Reminds me something I saw on the Cakewalk Forum awhile back. When people started upgrading their Sonar Home Studio programs to the new one which includes a special version of GPO, users were saying about the Steinway Piano, "Not too bad for a freebie." - oh my. The piano we've all known, loved and used now being thought of as just another freebie piano sound.

People's opinions of what they use/own is directly proportionate to how much they pay for it. Give away tickets to the greatest show on earth and they won't be nearly as impressed than if they'd spent $100 per seat. :(

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[Markleford]

When people started upgrading their Sonar Home Studio programs to the new one which includes a special version of GPO, users were saying about the Steinway Piano, "Not too bad for a freebie." - oh my. The piano we've all known, loved and used now being thought of as just another freebie piano sound.
Though that version probably had a reduced sample pool with wider intervals, no?

Or perhaps it reaffirms the old addage that 'the best things in life are free'. In fact, probably my favorite sampled piano continues to be the Akai Splendid Grand, which was a feebie from their ftp site!

- m

[Garritan]

Sorry for the confusion and lack of clarification about the Choir set.

The Choir Samples in Finale 2008 are not from the Garritan Choirs.

The choir samples in Finale 2008 are an early edition from a different recording done some time ago. They are not a preview of the forthcoming Garritan Choirs.

The upcoming Garritan Choirs are a recent set of samples from members of one of the world's most well-known choirs.

Hope this clarifies things. We'll post more details in due course. :)

Gary Garritan

[rbowser-]

Great, Gary - After the convoluted turns this thread has taken, it's great to get this definitive information from you. Thank you very much. As you can see--there is a Lot of interest in the Choir Library you're developing!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[qccowboy]

Which libary are these choral sounds drawn from?
On the player in Finale, it says "Garritan Sounds for Finale"... which obviously leads to the assumption that the sounds are from the upcoming Garritan choral library.


Sorry for the confusion and lack of clarification about the Choir set.

The Choir Samples in Finale 2008 are not from the Garritan Choirs.

The choir samples in Finale 2008 are an early edition from a different recording done some time ago. They are not a preview of the forthcoming Garritan Choirs.

The upcoming Garritan Choirs are a recent set of samples from members of one of the world's most well-known choirs.

Hope this clarifies things. We'll post more details in due course. :)

Gary Garritan

[nikolas]

Thanks Gary...

My hopes are again high up :)

Yes, maybe Makemusic should correct this small detail, as it already is creating confusion...

[Jeff Turner]

Which libary are these choral sounds drawn from?
On the player in Finale, it says "Garritan Sounds for Finale"... which obviously leads to the assumption that the sounds are from the upcoming Garritan choral library. I completely agree. On Finale's list of included instruments, it clearly says that these sounds are all from Garritan & Co., it's reasonable for the user to conclude that these few choir samples were from the upcoming Choral Library. Is the same true of the included world library sounds? Are they from the General Midi Library or are they some miscellaneous samples that won't ever appear in any full Garritan library?

Jeff

[Michael_uk]

I completely agree. On Finale's list of included instruments, it clearly says that these sounds are all from Garritan & Co., it's reasonable for the user to conclude that these few choir samples were from the upcoming Choral Library. Is the same true of the included world library sounds? Are they some miscellaneous samples that won't ever appear in any full Garritan library?

Jeff
When I first heard the choir sounds in my new Finale 2008, I listened with disbelief. I say disbelief because I considered the sounds to be no better than I hear in the likes of Virtual Sound Canvas and Cakewalk TTS-1. In fact at times the choir voices are , in my view, distinctly 'synthy'. I say disbelief because I have come to consider Gary's products to be of the highest order. Not only that, we all know that when Gary presents his offerings we can expect something extra, something over and above what others offer. Gary has revolutionised the world of the Sampled Instruments Library. Having become used to the very high standards of Gary's products, I listened in disbelief.

Then I went back to the marketing on Make Music's website and here are quotes from their blurb.


More than 250 world-class sounds from the creators of Garritan Personal Orchestra®. Free new sounds include saxophones, choirs, guitar, marching percussion, world instruments, ...


Garritan Personal Instruments included in Finale


Rich sounds provided by the makers of the Garritan Personal Orchestra®, included for free.

Nowhere, but nowhere does it say that the choir sounds are from Gary Garritan's up and coming new sampled Choir. The assumption that these are a preview of what's to come is all ours .. and, like just about everyone else, I assumed this too. However, I have to accept that no such claim was made and the fault is with me for making the assumption. Please don't misunderstand me, I thought and felt the same as others here. Gary explained in his post that the choir sounds are early recordings and, as such, confirms that he did supply the sounds. This fits in entirely with the marketing quotes above and, technically, we have to accept that this is accurate and not misleading. I use the term 'technically' but I can understand that for many, whilst this is technically accurate, it might not be 'in the spirit' and as such it was easy to assume these sounds were samples from Gary's forthcoming choir.

Again, please don't misunderstand me, I thought the same as others here and am just as disappointed. It's just that I can't find anything anywhere where we were promised Gary's new choir sounds.

[diligamus]

So I've been looking into what's available right now in terms of choirs and this is what I came up with. Would you like to make any corrections or additions to this list?


Papelmedia and Florestan soundfonts
Ooh and ahh only
Free or low cost downloads


Miroslav Refill Choir
Vowels and a few syllabic combinations
$200 but only works with Propellerhead Reason 3 which is an extra $500 = $700 total


Spectrasonics - Symphony of Voices
Some phrases (Kyrie, Allelujah, Amen, Agnus Dei, etc.)
$500 but only works with Akai Samplers which are an extra $1,000 = $1,500 total


Bela D Media Giovani Boychoir LE
Some phrases (Benedictus, Agnus Dei, etc.)
Boys only
$100
Does it need separate Kontakt Player 1.5? Or will it work with the Player that came with GPO #2? Does it work with Kontakt Player 2 for extra $300?


EastWest/Quantum Leap Symphonic Choirs
Wordbuilder for phrases
$600
Apparently lengthy to install and complex to learn
May need separate iLok security key $40?
Does it need separate player?

[Jerry W.]

So I've been looking into what's available right now in terms of choirs and this is what I came up with. Would you like to make any corrections or additions to this list?


Spectrasonics - Symphony of Voices
Some phrases (Kyrie, Allelujah, Amen, Agnus Dei, etc.)
$500 but only works with Akai Samplers which are an extra $1,000 = $1,500 total

The Full versions of Kontakt 1.x and 2.x will import AKAI sampler formatted files just fine.


Bela D Media Giovani Boychoir LE
Some phrases (Benedictus, Agnus Dei, etc.)
Boys only
$100
Does it need separate Kontakt Player 1.5? Or will it work with the Player that came with GPO #2? Does it work with Kontakt Player 2 for extra $300?
You will need Full Kontakt 1.x or 2 to use Giovanni. I do not believe it has it's own player. And GPO's original player (based on K 1.5) will only load GPO. The Kontakt player 2 for the newer GPO will only load sample libraries that have been formatted into the proprietary Kontakt Player 2 format.



EastWest/Quantum Leap Symphonic Choirs
Wordbuilder for phrases
$600
Apparently lengthy to install and complex to learn
May need separate iLok security key $40?
Does it need separate player?
Nope - it comes with its own, but I have heard it is rather difficult to really create realistic phrases and such.

:)

Jerry

[diligamus]

Thanks for clearing up these points Jerry. This is only a hobby for me so I will wait to see if the famous (already!) Garritan Choir is more affordable.

[rpearl]

Thanks for clearing up these points Jerry. This is only a hobby for me so I will wait to see if the famous (already!) Garritan Choir is more affordable.


I think we can be sure it will be affordable; we know it will be easily usable!

[diligamus]

Well I've changed my mind about waiting as I want to get on with my project, so now I'm looking in different directions to get a choir sound.

As mentioned in the posts above, the ooh and ahh soundfonts are cheap, but there's a limit to what you can do with them. Also all the existing choir sample libraries are too expensive, especially if you have to buy a sampler to go woth them.

So now I'm looking into processing a single voice (mine!). Here's what I've found out:

vielklang -- I started another thread for this subject, but there was a report that the demo version verges on malware, so that rules that one out.

antares -- the makers of the famous Autotune now have a Harmony Engine that looks quite good, and also a Choir Multiplier, but the Choir Multiplier didn't sound like much improvement over a chorus effect to me (demo on their site). Also requires purchase of an iLok key. Total cost could get up to around $600 again.

melodyne -- there's a single track, standalone version called Melodyne Uno. I dowloaded the demo last night and tried it out. I though the results were pretty good considering it's an audio processor. The Uno version is $200, which is my kind of price. It's a bit fiddly having to work on one track at a time, but there are more sophisticated versions available for anyone who wants to spend more money. Support on their forum looks timely and attentive.

Anyone care to comment on my choice before I go ahead and buy the Melodyne Uno?

[diligamus]

For all my northernsounds friends interested in adding vocals to your compositions -- I've now purchased Melodyne Uno 1.8. Makes my signature a bit longer! :D I intend to post the results , good or bad, so you can hear for yourself how it sounds.