Please Comment On New Piece: Trick or Treat

[jeffn1]

Well, its been almost a year and I am finally finishing up a new piece. I am calling it Trick Or Treat. It still needs to be mastered, and I am hoping to get some final comments on the mix from the talented people here.

It features EWQL Choirs, Prominy LPC, EZ Drummer, Broomstick Bass, z3ta+, with some "spice" added by Bela Medial Lyrical Distortion, Bela Media Diva Collection, Tascam Ultimate Orchestral Percussion, Wusikstation, Cameleon, as well as some (free) sound effects.

You can access it here: http://www.box.net/shared/x0uf2pg7tz[/URL]

Or here: [URL="http://www.soundclick.com/jeffreynaness"]www.soundclick.com/jeffreynaness (http://www.box.net/shared/fmf4r0v4b3)

Thank you for any comments and help in finalizing the mix before I send it out of mastering.

jeffn1

[Tomdini]

Hey Jeff,

First off, good stuff. I enjoyed it. A bit different vibe from your usual material. So the rest of this is simply to give you some pointers towards realizing the full potential of this excellent music.

Hilarious opening chorals. Outstanding enunciation with EWQLSC. I think I hear some weirdness in the bass section, though, near the end of the opening passage - they kind of fade out and back in, like a noise gate or something... did you effect them? At the end of the piece I hear the same thing. I dunno. I'm not quite diggin' it, whatever that is, deliberate or otherwise. Some quick sentences at the end, as far as EWQLSC is concerned. Turned out pretty good.

Did you do a three-mic mix with the choirs? Sounds like C mics + reverb to me.

Now, I find this to be true of most of your music... the guitars, dude. Bring them way up in the mix. They should be very loud and dominant - compressed and punchy. It just sounds like the guitars, which ought to be your central harmonic anchor and main driving rhythmic force, are merely a weak background texture. Kicks the legs out from under the piece before it even has a chance.

The whole thing could be louder and more present, I feel. But the guitars for sure. Maybe double-track 'em, if you feel so inclined. Could be all it needs to fatten 'em up and bring them out.

And some of that lead work needs more room to breathe. More delay, perhaps.

All a matter of sheer opinion and taste, of course. I'm not listening through the best monitoring system, either. As aforementioned, I'm a fan, so if this come off harsh, it's only because I care so much. You solicited advice!! :)

Louder guitars!!!!!!!! ;)

-Tom

[Pingu]

Hi Jeff,
I'm really enjoying this piece, and I'll post some more comments later. Initially though, I'm getting a really sudden drop in overall level just before 41'' - I'm listening on Hi-Fi, haven't tried the other options yet, but it's happening every time.

[jeffn1]

Hey, thanks for the listen, guys. Pingu, I am looking forward to seeing your comments. Tomdini, you know I am a huge fan of your music (and I print out all your posts on using guitar sample libraries with the hope of learning from your techniques).

With regard to the choirs, I did not use any effects. I think I just used the full mics for everything. I might have also used the close mics for the boys choir. (It is tough too remember now). I think I am done messing with the choirs (they took up a lot of time as is).

I am going to work on those guitars. I will try increasing the level in particular places (the power chords that are not present enough). I will also try some modest compression and also see how a little delay effects it.

The guitars are already double tracked. The tracks are panned 50% left and right. One side uses the distorted LPC library just with a little EQ. The other side is the LPC clean library run through Guitar Rig 2. (See, I have already learned something from you!)

Now, the guitars still might not be as dominant as you like (I sort of want an ensemble piece, rather than a guitar piece), but I am going to push them some more in that direction.

I am confident the piece as a whole will be louder and more present when it is done, but I am leaving that to a friend of mine (Kilroy, from k-v-r) who is going to master it for me.

Thanks again for listening and commenting.

Oh, and Pingu, I will check out what is happening just before 41 seconds into the piece.

jeffn1

PS: Does anyone know a halloween tv special that is looking for some music?

[Marko]

I enjoyed this a lot. I am listening to it again as I write this. The opening is charming. I am not much of a rock fan, but this mix sounds great. I like the synthesizer lines in particular.

Very nice use of the choir.

Marko

[jeffn1]

I enjoyed this a lot. I am listening to it again as I write this. The opening is charming. I am not much of a rock fan, but this mix sounds great. I like the synthesizer lines in particular.

Very nice use of the choir.

Marko

Thanks, Marko. You can see how there might be a little difference in perspective/taste between you and Tomdini. So, at some point I have to decide how much the guitars should dominate. I don't want to lose the synth lines (or anything else).

jeffn1

[jamiha]

Not my kind of preferrence, yet I listened to the whole piece. The choir using a sing-song kids chant is absolutely precious. Because it is low key, I liked it. I imagined a couple of choir oos (like friendly ghost rises and falls) and even two well-placed kids giggles to keep it all in perspective. The sing-song choir chants are an impressive touch.

This is a good Halloween piece. I think I'll listen to it again. As reasonable a use of synths as Manhiem (?) Steamrollers.

Good luck,
tony h

[jeffn1]

Not my kind of preferrence, yet I listened to the whole piece. The choir using a sing-song kids chant is absolutely precious. Because it is low key, I liked it. I imagined a couple of choir oos (like friendly ghost rises and falls) and even two well-placed kids giggles to keep it all in perspective. The sing-song choir chants are an impressive touch.

This is a good Halloween piece. I think I'll listen to it again. As reasonable a use of synths as Manhiem (?) Steamrollers.

Good luck,
tony h

Thank you. Those are some good ideas to consider.

jeffn1

[jeffn1]

New mix up. I beefed up the guitars.

jeffn1

[Tomdini]

Ha! I can actually hear the double-tracking now. Hey, my idea sounds pretty cool, doesn't it? :D

Nice. I dig it, man.

On second listen: yeah, that sounds great!

Only two nagging critiques remain.

One - near the end of the opening choral passage, something screwy happens with the basses/tenors - they kind of drop out then fade back in. It doesn't sound good... I don't know what it is. Near the fourth bar after the Diva soloist starts singing. Seems like an EWQLSC/Wordbuilder glitch to me.

Two - On all the lead guitar stuff, but especially when those single e-guitar notes ring out, after you hear that first synth arpeggio... with the vibrato sustains and unison bends... those notes, but really all the lead guitar material, absolutely beg for some kind of delay/reverb/sparkling, shimmery high-end. I think making that lead guitar a more cosmic/spacey/electronic/synthy-sounding lead, is gonna sound real effective with all the synths and other electronic textures you got going on there. It's much too dry, it blends in with the rhythm guitars and gets a little lost in the mix as a result.

You used EZ Drummer? I'll have to give that lib another consideration. The demos didn't sell me entirely, but the drumming in this track sounds very natural and tightly engineered - the former due to your excellent MIDI chops and the latter due to Toontrack's good sampling technique.

Okay, one more critique that just slapped me in the face. I think you should use more mutes when doing staccato stuff on guitar. Rule of thumb is, multi-note articulations (like power chords or other chords), use a bridge mute. Single note articulations (like those harmonics you have in the rhythm guitar when LPC first comes in, and the unison bends later on), use a pick mute. It just sounds so unnatural to me, that those notes are played staccato but I don't hear a little "plink" or a "click" as the guitarist mutes the notes.

They don't need to be everywhere (but they should be, whenever a guitarist would use them :)), but at least use them in exposed passages where their absence is obvious... they don't have to be loud, either. Subtle, but audible. Maybe they're already there, but I sure don't hear 'em. :)

I like your changes, though. I'm really only nitpicking on the lead guitar sound and the mutes (though I think they're both important!!). But do fix the weird choir thingy at the beginning.

-Tom

[jeffn1]

Thanks, again, Tom. I am glad you got me to beef up the guitars.

Is there an article somewhere that dicusses the differences between pick and bridge mutes? By the way, all the articulations were from the LPC superformance multi (except during the beginning where also used Lyrical Distortion).

I isolated that choir part and did not hear the problem. I had mixed down the "children's soprano/alto" choir part and the "bass/baritone adult" choir part in the same track. When the child part ends and the adult part starts, I drew in an envelope because, otherwise, the adult part would have been too loud relative to the children's part.

Can you tell what word is being sung when this occurs? The adult singing line is "Come on in, don't be shy, you may live or you may die."

jeffn1

[Tomdini]

No article necessary. I'll tell you. :)

A bridge mute is when you slam the heel of your palm onto the bridge of the guitar, muting every string at once. For staccato power chords or staccato full chords, this is the preferred technique. Any time you gotta mute more than one string.

A pick mute is when you place the pick on the string you want to mute. The string vibrates against the pick and, if correct pressure is applied, the note will instantly stop. This is the preferred muting technique when playing on one string.

There are all kinds of ways to stop the strings from vibrating on a guitar, but of what LPC makes available to you, these are the two principals.

They sound very different from one another. A bridge mute is more "plink"-ish, and a pick mute is scratchier, more "click"-ish. Not to mention their different applications (multi- versus single-string).

In the LPC Performance Multi manual, it tells you how to achieve bridge mute and pick mute staccatos. I can't recall the keys off the top of my head.

More complex patterns of mutes can emerge when you, for example, strum a chord, then bridge mute the bottom two strings in order to play a melody on them while the other four strings ring out - and any staccato notes played on one of those two bridge muted strings will probably be pick muted.

Hope I haven't confused you.

Re: the choral glitch, it's in the bass part - right at "don't be shy" - on "shy," you can hear them drop out then fade back in. It's really, really obvious. Or at least, I think so.

What kind of engineering did you do to the EZ Drummer part? Did you use one of the expansions, or just the original sample set? I hear all kinds of articulations in there that sound great. The open hihats, the snares, the kicks (punchy without being thunderous). Quite a variety of cymbals in there, and I hear you striking them in a myriad of different ways. Probably the open hats are my fave, though. They sound perfect. The cymbal crescendos are included, I imagine (because they're not included with DFHS unless you use mallets)? That kit's a phenomenal rock kit, from what I can tell. The more I listen to your track, the more I consider picking up a copy of EZ Drummer.

-Tom

[jeffn1]

Thanks, Tomdini. Perhaps yet another Tomdini post for me to print out for future reference.

I will check out the choral part again. I thought the end of the word "shy" sort of fades out (I woudn't think a choir would hold the hard "i" sound out. I tend to think it would naturally have that gap. But I will listen again).

On to EZ Drummer. It is the default kit. I applied some EQ and compression to the kick and snare. I might have EQ'ed the room mic to bring out the ride cymbal. Yeah, I play the rim and bell on the ride. I don't think I processed the hi hats at all.

But, note, some of the cymbals swells were not from this library. I "cheated" and used some cymbal swells from Tascam Ultimate Orchestral Percussion library. :)

In general EZ Drummer is perfect for me. I was beta tester (though not a particularly good one), but I would have bought it anyway (it is pretty reasonably priced). I just don't have the technical chops or know how to bother with BFD or DKFH. The kit sounds great pretty much out of the box. It is also reasonable in terms of ram usage (you should have seen what had to go through to try to use DKFH2). I have heard that the Nashville kit sounds great too (even better?), but I haven't tried it yet.

jeffn1

[jeffn1]

The mastered version is available at www.soundclick.com/jeffreynaness (http://www.soundclick.com/jeffreynaness) (I deleted the version at box.net).

jeffn1