Layering Strings

[raweber]

I have heard in the past that some (renderers? what do we call ourselves?) will layer solo strings over the string sections to make a fuller, more varied sound.

As I'm getting to that stage in my first GPO project, I'm curious what people layer together - the solo strings or the individual player strings, or all of the above.

[Garritan]

Hi Rob,

Renderers is a good name. :)

Layering solo strings with sections does create a fuller sound. With section strings the players seem to move in lockstep fashion. The start times, relative volumes, attacks, etc are the same. With real strings you hear individual players weave a delicate tapestry - with players coming in and out, starting with different attacks, emphasizing certain notes, etc.

GPO is primarily a library of individual instruments designed and you can layer and build ensembles quite easily. There are a couple of dozen solo strings you can do this with in GPO. And layering other solo string libraries or real players will also work.

Here is an excellent tutorial done by Robert Davis that shows how to do superb string writing using GPO. It shows how to layer solo and section strings, imparting variability, optimizing string parts to achieve the utmost realism and imparting subtle nuances. There are some wonderful tips and tricks, pictures of sequences, midi files, as well as audio examples.

http://www.garritan.com/tutorial/MasterClass_Strings.html

There's also an excellent tutorial on Ensemble building for strings: http://www.garritan.com/tutorial/StringEnsembleBuildingTutorial.html

Hope this helps.

All the best,

Gary Garritan

[reberclark]

I have heard in the past that some (renderers? what do we call ourselves?) will layer solo strings over the string sections to make a fuller, more varied sound.

As I'm getting to that stage in my first GPO project, I'm curious what people layer together - the solo strings or the individual player strings, or all of the above.

I like the term "renderers."

[Leaf]

Lots of good info in that tutorial. He mentions the use Var1 and Var2, and i'm wondering what experienced people are usualy setting those to, a little Var or a lot. Around 2 or 3? About 8 or 10? 15? More? 50?

edit: Ok maybe 50 too much, but where are you guys setting these?

[raweber]

Wow, a personal response from the head of the company. You don't see that often enough. Thanks, Gary. I checked out the tutorials and there is scads of great information there.

It may be apropos to mention, though, that I'm using the Finale Edition of GPO, so I only have three individual violins and two violin solos to mess around with. I figure layering one or more of the individuals or solos over the section strings will provide the best results.

I also have a pizzicato section in the piece, and the individual players don't mention any keyswitching. Do those players have pizz. samples, or just the "solos"?

[raweber]

I've spent some time curled up with the help files tonight, and so far have had no luck finding any reference to the "Var. 1" and "Var. 2" controls on the Kontakt 2 player. So, just what to they do?

Also, I added in the Solo Violins 1 and 2 to the Violin Section, and they aren't keyswitching to Pizzicato with the section strings (HP, pizz. above all staves). The solos to have pizz. samples, right?

[Leaf]

Wow, a personal response from the head of the company. You don't see that often enough. Thanks, Gary. I checked out the tutorials and there is scads of great information there.

It may be apropos to mention, though, that I'm using the Finale Edition of GPO, so I only have three individual violins and two violin solos to mess around with. I figure layering one or more of the individuals or solos over the section strings will provide the best results.

I also have a pizzicato section in the piece, and the individual players don't mention any keyswitching. Do those players have pizz. samples, or just the "solos"?In both the section strings and solo strings there are some with KS on the name.

After loading one of them, from the kontakt player push the keyboard button at the top left of the Kontakt Player Logo name.

On the keyboard graphical you will see some bluish keys. Those are ones that are inside the voice range of that instrument or group.

OK, now click the left arrow on the far left of the keyboard to view it's lowest octave. You will see some keys that are pink in color, those are the keys for the keyswitches and for section strings that lowest f note is the one for pizz (press and hold a pink key while playing the bluish keys), i think it is the same for solo but there are only a few so you check to see which one.

I have to have my midi keyboard connected to operate the key switches, there may be another way, but i haven't read all of manual yet.

edit: I haven't used this yet in a Finale score, i have been giving piz strings a separate stave. Some people make two scores, one for publishing and a different one for playback.

[suspenlute]

Var1 and Var2 usually control variable timbre and variable intonation (i.e. detuning). But it depends on what instrument you're working with.

-Chris

[raweber]

So, does anyone want to chime in with their preferred settings?

BTW, I'm not getting the Solo Violin 1 KS or 2 KS to respond to the "pizz." symbol in Finale (where in another staff the violin section is). The section violins in pizzicato sound good enough, though, so I think I'll just eliminate the notes in that passage from the solo instruments.

[Reegs]

So, does anyone want to chime in with their preferred settings?

These parameters can be controlled by MIDI CC's (22 and 23) and adjusted throughout the piece. On passages of repetition I tend to turn them up to around 8 or 9, then bring them down for the more lyric phrases.

Best,
Reegs

[Matthew S Phillips]

Hi Rob,

Wow. After reading the tutorials (thanks Gary) I tried doubling my strings with solo strings and well lets just say........*()

cool.

BTW Rob, I don't know how much Finale is like Sibelius, but I had the same problem with pizz. It seems to be due to the fact that the KS keys are different in the solo string patches. Sibelius (and I'm assuming Finale) only hits one of them and leaves the other patch arco.

I worked around this by creating a Midi Message key switch. In Sibelius that's done by typing the text ~N41,64. Which sounds Note #41 (the KS note for pizz. on solo violin patches) at a down velocity of 64 (I don't think the down velocity matters so long as its greater than 0). A couple of seconds later I typed in ~N41,0 to release the note.

Maybe some Finale users can show you how to do something similar in Finale.

Matt

[raweber]

These parameters can be controlled by MIDI CC's (22 and 23) and adjusted throughout the piece. On passages of repetition I tend to turn them up to around 8 or 9, then bring them down for the more lyric phrases.

Thanks. I messed around with a simple unison passage and played with the Var. 1 and 2 controls, and I can see where a very subtle touch with Var. 1 is appropriate. I put it all the way up to 127 and the result was unlistenable it was so out of tune.

That being said, I couldn't tell much difference with Var. 2 set either way.

Anyone else use these settings?

[robh]

So, does anyone want to chime in with their preferred settings?

My set up is:
1st violins: four violins
2nd violins: four violins
violas: three violas
cellos: three cellos
Double basses: two double basses

All of them are the "Player" versions, not the "Solo" versions.
I also don't use the default panning. Each instrument will have a different setting based on the section they're in.

Rob

[garymosse]

Gret INFO.
Let's think a moment.....Composers are renderers; a building full of composers would be a "rendering plant......"
Sorry, some†imes the moment just hits me.
Gary

[raweber]

My set up is:
1st violins: four violins
2nd violins: four violins
violas: three violas
cellos: three cellos
Double basses: two double basses

Thanks, Rob (nice name, BTW).

If I may ask, does having such small "sections" negatively affect the rendering, or is it noticable?

[robh]

Thanks, Rob (nice name, BTW).

If I may ask, does having such small "sections" negatively affect the rendering, or is it noticable?I usually blend this set up with the section strings, with the section strings louder in the mix. You can hear an example of it here, http://www.box.net/shared/ssvcncxb7b
("Man; Part I") especially the last minute or so.
Right now, I'm working on a composition that only uses the solo string set up (no "section" samples) and even in its rough state, it has a nice, intimate feel to it. Gary (Garritan) touched on it in his post, but I think the magic comes less from the mix and more from performing each part "live" (yes, that means I use four different performances of the 1st violin, etc.) to make it more organic/human.

Rob

[Samantha Penigar]

Gret INFO.
Let's think a moment.....Composers are renderers; a building full of composers would be a "rendering plant......"
Sorry, some†imes the moment just hits me.
Gary

Does that make the female composers renderetts?

[Carabus]

Does that make the female composers renderetts?

LOL

About the CC nr 22 & 23: has anyone tried using these in Sibelius? And do you get the desired result?

[Matthew S Phillips]

LOL

About the CC nr 22 & 23: has anyone tried using these in Sibelius? And do you get the desired result?


Yes, and Yes.
~C22,xxx

where x is the desired level out of 127.

[qccowboy]

My set up is:
1st violins: four violins
2nd violins: four violins
violas: three violas
cellos: three cellos
Double basses: two double basses

All of them are the "Player" versions, not the "Solo" versions.
I also don't use the default panning. Each instrument will have a different setting based on the section they're in.

Rob

the only problem with this is that there aren't enough KS instruments to balance well. If all you're writing is arco strings, then it's no problem, but the minute you need pizz strings it becomes a serious concern.

there is only one KS viola solo, three different KS celli, but then only one contrabass.

[fiziwig]

~C22,xxx

where x is the desired level out of 127.

Unless you are playing with Spinal Tap. Their controllers go up to 128! ;)

--gary shannon

[robh]

the only problem with this is that there aren't enough KS instruments to balance well. If all you're writing is arco strings, then it's no problem, but the minute you need pizz strings it becomes a serious concern.

there is only one KS viola solo, three different KS celli, but then only one contrabass.You're right about that. So far it hasn't been so much of an issue with what I write.

Rob

[khiun]

Layering strings is quite the way to go, even for divisi sections, as long as one controls output volume for each track well enough to blend the sounds.

As for using KS instruments in notation programs, like Sibelius, never had thought of using midi messages for those. Always thought they needed to be activated through midi notes, like in sequencers. Well, but thinking better about it, what is a midi note rather than a midi message written "graphically"? It makes perfect sense. And I've been using midi messages in Sibelius for quite some time, but only knew about ~C (control change), ~B (Bend wheel), ~P (program change) and ~X (SysEx) messages. Never knew about ~N (note) messages. So this raises me a question to Matthew S Phillips, who pointed this out. Do you know any more kinds of midi messages that Sibelius is capable of interpreting? This really comes handy when using KS instruments.

Thanks in advance.

[Carabus]

Yes, and Yes.
~C22,xxx

where x is the desired level out of 127.

Wow, I must check that out as soon as possible. Which numbers do you usually play with; the 10's or lower? Hope you follow.

Thanks...

[Matthew S Phillips]

I think my most recent settings were C22 at 11 and C23 at 17.

M

[rbowser-]

Hello, Rob

You've gotten a lot of good advice on your lively thread. And though I'm not a "renderer" but rather a "recorderer" (?? - I use a DAW rather than notation) I wanted to add two things.

I've long since made it a practice to layer solo strings in with section patches. It instantly makes your results more realistic. If the soloists are playing exactly the same lines as the group instruments, I always shuffle their MIDI tracks so their timing isn't precisely the same.

Regarding the use of cc22 and cc23, I guess my approach isn't done as easily in notation programs, but I never use them as one-time "settings." Using just one value like that just makes that particular instrument permanently slightly out of tune and or/duller sounding through an entire piece.

I use those controls as dynamically ever-changing as cc1 (volume). Recording my works with a MIDI keyboard as I do, I assign the mod wheel to those controllers, one a time, and record their values throughout selected instrument lines in a project. The mod wheel generating cc22 will swoop up for fast passages, go down to zero for most of the piece. I also add andom values throughout, so that the virtual musician isn't impossibly perfect.

Too much use of all that and you'll have a mess. The values rarely go higher than 10, 15, 20, and rarely stay up for long--AND cc22 and cc23 aren't applied to all instruments. If I have four Flutes, for instance, using those controllers on One of the Flutes achieves the more believable ensemble effect being striven for.

Hope you're doing well with your current music projects.

Randy B.
(rbowser)