3 computers - what else?

[Marcussen]

Hi... I obviously realize there is a thread similar to mine, but I would like to post my own since I have different hardware, and so that I can set a new level of ignorance...

Ok.. Im am totaly blank...the other thread touches the issues I want to know, but I need things explained to me like i\'m an idiot... so here goes...

I have 3 PC\'s and 2 screens.... I\'m planning on having one running my sequencer and VI\'s, and the two others running primarily GIGASTUDIO.

I understand the principles of MOL, so lets just skip that for now. What I really need to know is, how do I set things up so when a peice is done I only record/export it once, and not thrice (once per machine) and then allign the wav files...

Also... I need a soundcard for each machine right?

And please dont expect I know any abrevations images/icons/smile.gif

[Marcussen]

Also-... let me mention what I had in mind...

Each computers audio input goes into my little mixer, which then goes into my sequencer... midi and sync controlled by MOL...

How far away from reality am I?

[Marcussen]

someone?

[Paul K Egell-Johnsen]

Your setup should work as you envision it. I\'d also go with VNC (\"http://www.realvnc.com\") for controlling your virtual instruments (remember to enter your bios on your computers and turn off halting on errors, and have windows start up automatically and then GS automatically), and use both monitors for your DAW.

As for timing of audio it would depend on the work you\'re doing, midi wouldn\'t cut it for all kinds of work.

Remember that you can have your DAW send start and stop signals to the record to disk function in GS and that can be used to create wavs you can use in your DAW (just so you know this option) and have an all digital solution; I got the impression your mixer was analog.

As for soundcards you should look into this thread (\"http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=32;t=001712\") in the hardware forum.

Hmm, someone in that thread mentioned \"FXteleport\" or similar. That could actually work pretty well if you use a Firewire cable from each gigamachine to your DAWs firewire input. Those would work as network cables and then you\'d probably be able to send the digital audio from each gigamachine directly into your sequencer. FXteleport reportedly creates emulated GSIF channels for gigastudio.

[audiophile]

Hmm, someone in that thread mentioned \"FXteleport\" or similar. That could actually work pretty well if you use a Firewire cable from each gigamachine to your DAWs firewire input. Those would work as network cables and then you\'d probably be able to send the digital audio from each gigamachine directly into your sequencer. FXteleport reportedly creates emulated GSIF channels for gigastudio
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">To set this right, FXTeleport does not have anything to do with Gigastudio, you will need both FXTeleport and the Gigastudio wrapper (not released yet) to access Gigastudio as a VST on a remote machine.
The way to network PC is the network card - which most newer PCs have onboard. Using multiple PC, you would need a hub or switch additionally.

[Marcussen]

Right.... now all three PC\'s are equipped with a soundcard.

Bought a KVM switch aswell...

I\'m going to buy MOL soon... Hope I can learn to use that.

Since GS 3.0 has a rewire function, will that have any major impact on multiple PC music setups?

Do I need FX-Teleport at all?

[Paul K Egell-Johnsen]

To set this right, FXTeleport does not have anything to do with Gigastudio, you will need both FXTeleport and the Gigastudio wrapper (not released yet) to access Gigastudio as a VST on a remote machine.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Thanks, I read through the FXTeleport site and could find no mention of GSIF; I must have misunderstood something in the thread I referenced, I was under the impression that there was a GSIF emulator in there.



The way to network PC is the network card - which most newer PCs have onboard. Using multiple PC, you would need a hub or switch additionally.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">If the guy has 100 Mbit network cards in his PC he will not get a very good speed on the network with several computers working at the same time sending audio data (I was working from the assumption that FXTeleport could stream audiodata), possibly adding VNC data, and normal networking. Using firewire will give 4 times the bandwith to each PC.

Now, we all know that the PCI bus of ordinary PCs will be saturated, but I\'ve been using firewire for the networking when I only had 100 mbit cards for the above reasons, much faster file transfers, when needed, and even lower CPU utilization than some network cards.

[David Govett]

Thanks guys for helping him out. I\'ve been away from the computer a while.
Dave

[audiophile]

If the guy has 100 Mbit network cards in his PC he will not get a very good speed on the network with several computers working at the same time sending audio data (I was working from the assumption that FXTeleport could stream audiodata), possibly adding VNC data, and normal networking. Using firewire will give 4 times the bandwith to each PC.

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">True, FXTeleport does send the audio data via network, also true that 100 Mbit with 3 PCs might not leave enough headroom. So additional Gigabit cards and hub/switch might be the way to go. The firewire option sounds interesting, but how do you connect 3 PCs via firewire, are there firewire hubs?

[audiophile]

Since GS 3.0 has a rewire function, will that have any major impact on multiple PC music setups?
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">As far as I know rewire is a one PC thing, so will not help you and your multiple PC setup.


Do I need FX-Teleport at all?
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">If you got proper soundcards you don\'t need FX-Teleport at all. Especially at the current moment, since the Gigastudio wrapper is not out yet.
Depending on your working methods, using FX-teleport and Gigastudio wrapper can offer you advantages, as you are able to use Gigastudio as a VST in your sequencer.

[Paul K Egell-Johnsen]

True, FXTeleport does send the audio data via network, also true that 100 Mbit with 3 PCs might not leave enough headroom. So additional Gigabit cards and hub/switch might be the way to go. The firewire option sounds interesting, but how do you connect 3 PCs via firewire, are there firewire hubs?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">There are firewire hubs, but you can also daisy chain the computers, that would lead to sharing the bandwith; as do a hub, btw. (This is true for some USB hubs as well, though most cheap USB hubs will default to lowest common denominator of attached devices, which is OUCH).

Some of your USB and Firewire connectors on your computer share an internal hub respectively, so all the bandwidth is shared between the external devices connected to the same internal hub.

I have 5 firewire connections on my computer, two from the chipset, and 3 from a PCI card. That gives me 2 x 400 Mb to play with, though I use them mostly for external HDs and cameras these days.

Firewire works as a multiple format transport, TCP/IP (computer networks) is one format, DV-video another, and mLan a third yet, and there is room for others as well.

And remember firewire is much easier on the CPU than USB, so if you have an external HD try to use Firewire as often as you can, and especially if you use an external hub; if the hub isn\'t of the corret type you might in fact be hamstrung by the _slowest_ device on the USB hub.

[Marcussen]

ok...

so far I have set up the three computers like this... the two giga slaves output to my mixer, and then from my mixer to my sequencer computer (which also controls VI\'s). I then go from that soundcard to my monitors...

Problem is now that I get some really bad latency issues... when I play a song from one computer it gets played in my monitors with 1-1.5 sec delay.. is that normal? any clues?

[Paul K Egell-Johnsen]

Latencies are normal

You can probably program your sequencer to take them into account, or you should try sending sync signals via the virtual midi.

[Marcussen]

No virtual midi setup yet... ive simply just tried play a sound on one computer and record it in cubase... when I activate the sound I get a 1 second delay

[audiophile]

1-1.5 seconds delay is impossible to work with, however, I really don\'t understand your setup, one time you mention you use MOL, next time you don\'t have it yet, how does your midi data flow from your seq PC to the Giga PC?

[Marcussen]

ok... I dont beleive I said I use MOL, if so its definately a mistake... I do however PLAN on using MOL... but before I buy it I have been trying to set up my computers simply so I can hear them all, and record whatever they are playing.

I am a complete newbie in regards to setting up multiple computers so I have no clue really. I simply was testing to see if I could set up three computers so I could hear them all, without getting feedback. I have done so, but get a 1.5 second delay from when I play a sound on one of the computers, til its actualy heard in my monitors.

So to sum up, here is what I have done: Two computers output to mixer. Mixer outputs to my sequencer computer. That computer then sends the audio from the two others aswell as its own sound, into the monitors... I just get this terrible latency issue... and being a newbie I dont know if its caused by my setup, missing software/hardware, or similar... i\'m blank...

[Mattias Henningson]

Hey Christian,

How are you routing the giga machine sound that comes from the mixer to the output on your sequencer machine? Internally in some kind of sound card mixer or are you routing the sound through Cubase?

From the latency figures you mention it sounds like you\'re using input monitoring in Cubase and that the latency configuration on your sequencer machine is wrong. Since you have a mixer...try this.

Send everything to the mixer (including the sequencer machine) and monitor the output of the mixer. Is the sound from the Giga machine still delayed? If it is, then you need to lower the latency setting in GigaStudio on your Giga machine. If it\'s not delayed then the problem is the configuration of the soundcard in your sequencer machine. Check the buffer size setting in the ASIO control panel for your card.

/Mattias

[Marcussen]

Hey Mat

I\'m glad you have joined in, since I know your an expert /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Before your post I tried some experimenting... first of all the latency issue is caused somewhere in my sequencer computer since the output from the giga machine has no latency on the mixer headphones.. but the route from mixer to seq.computer to monitor gives the issue.. knowing this I started messing with the control panel for the soundcard (Audiophile 2496) and learned the following.. When i check off \"H/W on 1/2\" then I hear the giga machine with no latency but the sequncer sound does not work.. and vice versa when I check off \"WavOut 1/2\" instead...

and now.. I cant even reproduce the latency issue.. its either one working or the other...

(note: The machine called \"Giga\" machine is not set up with giga yet.. the sound i\'m sending are simple wav files from the desktop)

[audiophile]

[ QUOTE ]

I dont beleive I said I use MOL, if so its definately a mistake...


[/ QUOTE ]
sorry, my mistake

[Mattias Henningson]

Ok. Nothing strange with what\'s happening when you change the control panel settings.

1. H/W on 1/2 simply means that you\'re taking the hardware inputs of the card and send them to the output.

2. WavOut 1/2 means you\'re taking the sound from the applications (e.g. Cubase).

To make nomber two work you have to enable some sort of input monitoring in Cubase. As I think I said I haven\'t used Cubase on a VERY long time, but I\'m sure there\'s a setting somewhere. There should be loads of people here that know this. This is probably how you did it before and what was causing the delay in audio as the audio have to be transferred into Cubase from the hardware inputs, processed and then sent back to the WavOut 1/2. This can work though if you set the latency figures low enough but you have to get VERY low on the settings before it feels good on every instrument. What is the value of \"DMA buffer size\" in your Delta control panel?

Another approach is to use the monitor mixer in the Delta control panel (if it exists on the Audiophile, I only have a Delta 1010). If so you can select \"Monitor mixer\" for the output and mix H/W in and WavOut 1/2 in the mixer. This mix is taking place on the card and will not cause any delay. This method will essentially be the same as adding all signals to your mixer and monitor the output from the mixer though...

/Mattias

[Marcussen]

yep.. your right... I can duplicate the latency error selecting \"WavOut 1/2\", opening cubase, adding an audio track and then monitoring it as you suggest.

As for the DMA settings: 256.. it was 512.. changed it with no difference

I also tried your suggestion if I understand correctly... I set it to monitor which made no difference.. I hear the giga machine but not the sequencer machine (where i set it to monitor)... as soon as I remove it from \"WavOut\" I hear nothing

[Marcussen]

EDIT:

I think you did it!... after messing with the monitor thing I made it work... gonna do some more testing...

[Mattias Henningson]

There is surely a setting in Cubase that control the latency as well... In Sonar there\'s a latency slider where you control the latency. The lowest possible setting is based on the buffer size setting. With a 64 samples setting I\'m able to reach 1.5ms latency.

As far as the monitor mixer method goes... You should still route your Cubase tracks to WavOut 1/2. You have to make sure that the corresponding faders in the monitor mixer isn\'t muted or down.

/Mattias

[Marcussen]

Sure is..told Cubase to use the M-Audio AISO driver and viola... think its all in working order now.. Cool! Thanks...

gonna test some more.. and then download the MOL demo...

A few more questions:
- Does MOL require me to have my computers set up in a network or is it enough that they are connected to the same hub?
- Is there a way I can route through the mixer and avoid feedback? I would really like to do a mixer route since I can control the volume slider and use mixer headphones...

Thanks again

[Marcussen]

Grr.. more problems... when I tell Cubase to record what it hears from the giga machine it does, but I can hear it on play back. I see a recorded wave file, but cant hear it...

Then when I do a mixdown of the wave file and some VI on the sequencer computer it converts t to mono :-/

[Marcussen]

In addition to my other questions I have another... what is the real way of connecting things? In other words how would people who new what they were doing set things up?

Tell me what I need to buy and ill do it.. but I really need these things to work ASAP since I have a deadline ticking...

[Mattias Henningson]

\"- Does MOL require me to have my computers set up in a network or is it enough \"that they are connected to the same hub?\"\"
Yes, they need to be in a network, but they ARE \"in a network\" if you connect them to the same hub. For midi data only a simple hub will be fine. A switch is better and more efficient, but a hub will do fine in this case. You need to make sure your IP configuration is right so that the machines see each other, but that\'s it. If you\'re going to use MoL my advise is to use static IP addresses on the computers as MoL is more stable with static addresses, at least if you don\'t have a DNS server in your network. I had some problems with MoL dropping the connections between computers which requires a reboot to fix, but after setting up static IP addresses on my four computers I haven\'t had a single problem.

\"- Is there a way I can route through the mixer and avoid feedback? I would really like to do a mixer route since I can control the volume slider and use mixer headphones...\"
Sure, this is what most people do, me included. Just connect the outputs from your sequencer machine and the outputs from your Giga machine to different inputs on the mixer and use the mixer outs for monitoring. You don\'t need anything going to the inputs on your sequencer machine at all at this time.

/Mattias

[Marcussen]

[ QUOTE ]
\"- Is there a way I can route through the mixer and avoid feedback? I would really like to do a mixer route since I can control the volume slider and use mixer headphones...\"
Sure, this is what most people do, me included. Just connect the outputs from your sequencer machine and the outputs from your Giga machine to different inputs on the mixer and use the mixer outs for monitoring. You don\'t need anything going to the inputs on your sequencer machine at all at this time.

/Mattias

[/ QUOTE ]

And what when I want to record all three computers at once once I have completed a peice?

[Mattias Henningson]

5 alternatives...

1. Record the tracks (or sections or whatever) from your Giga machines into your sequencer using analog gear, that is send the Giga machine audio to an output of the mixer and record it on your sequencer. With good sound cards this won\'t degrade the sound much. The con to this approach (as you only have a stereo in on your sequencer machine) is that you will need to record one stereo mix at a time. However, if you\'re not going to do 20 tracks or something like that it may not be an issue.

2. Capture the Giga audio to a wav file. This can be done in Giga by pressing the capture button and start playback in your sequencer. You will then have to transfer the wav files over your network and import them into Cubase. This gives you a true digital mixdown of your Giga tracks. Again you can ony capture one stereo wav at a time (limitation in Giga).

3. Connect your soundcards digitally using the S/PDIF connections and record the tracks (again) one by one in your sequencer. This method will also be totally digital.

4. Wait for the Giga VST Adapter from FX-MAX and use it together with FXTeleport. This will be the most flexible solution as you will be able to do an offline mixdown in Cubase like you can do if you only have VI\'s and ordinary audio tracks even though the sound is generated on your Giga machines. This isn\'t an option since you\'re on a dead-line... You may or may not want to take this approach into account when you decide for the future and go with an easier but more cumbersome method (1-3) for this first project. This was the choice I made when I got my Giga rig last year.

5. The full-scale hardware option. Get cards with ADAT connection for all your computers. Your sequencer machine will need multiple connections (like the RME9652 or MOTU2408 etc) but your Giga machines will need only one. This will make it possible to route the sound of each Giga machine to 4 different stereo outputs and all signals can be recorded in one smack on your sequencer machine on different tracks for further mixing.

Hope this helps.

/Mattias

[Gerard Salonga]

If you have the resources, definitely go for option number 5. FX teleport is a great concept, but bouncing two at a time takes too long for me. Here\'s the flow in my rig:

1. MIDI goes from keyboard into Emagic amt8 midi interface, into Cubase on the host PC
2. From Cubase I select which output to route MIDI, and I have all my MIDI outputs named as \"sample PC 1 MIDI A\" and so on.
3. Two sample PCs (with giga/kontakt/vstack, etc) fitted with RME HDSP9652. They receive incoming MIDI via the 9652\'s built in midi jacks.
4. Sample pc\'s output audio through 9652\'s, via ADAT cables into inputs of MOTU 2408mkiii on host PC. I monitor not using Cubase, but MOTU\'s cue mix, which is almost no latency at all.
5. To record, I simply route the stuff on the sample pc\'s to the appropriate outputs, record-enable in Cubase, hit play, and I have as many as 24 channels coming in at the same time. Digital connection means no signal degradation. I also use an Aardvark word clock distributor for steadiness /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mattias Henningson]

Gerard,

I might have been a bit unclear. That\'s definitely not the concept of FXTeleport + GVA... The idea is that the audio from your Giga machines (up to 32 stereo from each machine I think) is routed back over the networked and exposed to your sequencer as a standard VSTi plugin. The midi transport to the Giga machines is also handled by FXT/GVA just if it was a VSTi. That is, you get the audio into your sequencer on the fly for further mixing without even importing or recording the audio. This is definitely the best solution you could have in my opinion. The only caveat is that it\'s not out on the market yet... I can assure you it works fine though, but unfortunately still with some limitations that still are being worked on. An added bonus is that you don\'t need anything but a network card in your sampler machines.

Personally I\'m pretty certain this (or similar solutions) will be THE way to do it in the future. That said, noone can say how it works in a full scale system at this point and solution number 5 definitely works right now.

The FXT/GVA possibility may not be that far away though...that\'s why I said that he (Christian) should think about how urgent a final solution is. An interim solution may be an alternative if you don\'t have too many projects running.

/Mattias

[Gerard Salonga]

Mattias,

My apologies. What you said was perfectly clear, and I do use FXteleport myself, but only if I intend on mixing in Cubase. It\'s a great thing since the remote pc audio comes up right in Cubase\'s mixer, but what I forgot to mention was that most of my work involves laying down tracks at home, then bringing the wav files to a separate pro tools rig for mixing. In that case, with FXT I\'d need to bounce two at a time to render separate stereo wavs for each track, which would take longer than getting 24 channels in one pass. If all the mixing is done at the composer\'s rig, where it\'s just one bounce from the stereo master output, then yes, FXT/GVA is certainly the way to go /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Marcussen]

Thanks.. guess i\'m just gonna splice the three wav files untill the giga wrapper comes...

Please check my upcoming MOL thread... my brain just dies trying to get it to work.