Which trumpet library will stop the criticism?

[RJBMusic]

I make a lot of orchestral music for television. For this I use Opus 1&2, Epic horns. These two libs sound great but many times peolple think the trumpets of Opus sound like a synthesizer. What other library could you guys recommend?

Cheers,

Ruud jan

[tradivoro]

For tv type of stuff I would listen to the trumpets in EWQL Gold. Don't sound synthy and pack a nice punch.

[bluejay]

I own Project SAM Orchestral Brass, Opus 1, Epic Horns, EWQL SO Gold XP Pro and Warp IV Screaming Trumpet. Many of these sound great.

Unfortunately, trumpets often sound like synths because the samples are too perfect. Crescendi, staccati, chords, etc sound wrong because the timing and tuning are too perfect.

So ... I very much recommend Wallander Instruments WIVI player and their brass instruments. Fantastic sounds, easy room placement and most importantly the ability to include random timing/tuning issues within the instruments.

Also an entire brass section loads into around 50MB of RAM! Possibly less, I've not checked in detail.

[Daryl]

Why don't you post an example of the synthy trumpet? There is no point in spending any money on a new library, if your programming or engineering is the main problem. How do you know that you won't get the same problem with the new library?

D

[dalek3]

For Solo Trumpets, I would really recommend ProjectSAM Solo Sessions as it has top-notch trumpet solos and is very inexpensive. (much less $$ than their full-blown Orchestral Brass)

For Trumpet sections and other brass sections, my favorite lib is Sonic Implants Symphonic Brass. SAM Trumpets is pretty good but doesn't have the same "body" at the fortissimo level that I can get from the Sonic Implants trumpets.

[RJBMusic]

Quote "There is no point in spending any money on a new library, if your programming or engineering is the main problem. How do you know that you won't get the same problem with the new library?"

that's an insult :)

Try this link: http://84.53.96.59/rjbmusic/MP4/TVE-leader-small.mov

If that doesn't work, go to www.rjbmusic.nl
Go to showreel, scroll down to 'Tijd voor elkaar'

Cheers,

Ruud Jan

[Daryl]

Sorry, no insult intended. Just I have used the products that you mention, and I don't remember getting criticism. I've tried to listen to your example, but can't get any audio on the video files. Any mp3 instead?

D

[nikolas]

Can't say I fancy the sound of the trumpet on that video, but I have Gold xp pro and when I used the trumpets in a somewhat close track (no reverb, etc) they did critisize the trumpet! While I found it amazing, people didn't even knew it was a trumpet. :O

don't know mate.

I think that trumpets are the worst instruments to sample really. Really really hard!

[Ear Tonic Music]

I like the EWQLSO Trumpets, especially for action-y stuff, I also like The SAM and Sonic Implants brass quite a bit.

I also prefer using the smaller section/solo trumpets, they sound much more realistic IMO. Only use the larger sections when they really need to pack some punch.

[belbin]

Yeah, while Daryl makes a good point about making sure your programming chops are not the issue, I have to agree with the others; Despite the best effort of talented developers, all sampled trumpets I've heard fall short. But WIVI definitely raises the bar quite high.

I'd like to take a crack at using the DEF in GS3 to make one without x fades. Could be just the ticket. That and some good varied (and controllable) legato patches could go a long way. Clever programming of attacks, releases, and special articulations would also help a lot. On that note, westgate's next tpt offering should bring a nice option to the table.

Belbin

[dvincent]

There are 3 things that stand out as "synth" trumpets to me in the clip.

One is perfect tuning. I like to add some random modulation (in Kontakt2) to the tuning of some solo instruments to loosen up that auto tune sound. About .10 to .20 percent is all that is needed. This modulator alters the tuning slightly throughout the duration of the note.

Two is the legato. There seems to be some timing problems in these transitions. To my ear it sometimes sounds as if the players are articulating a soft tongue and then transitioning from the old note to the new one. Also the transition time and speed is very regular regardless of interval or phrase considerations. The first four notes sound the most convincing to me.

Three is phrasing. The trumpet plays 75% of the cue without breathing. To me that always sticks out as programmed.

As belbin said, expressive trumpets are still a weaker instrument in sampled instruments in regards to realism.

Overall I like the music. Very nice melodic writing.

[RJBMusic]

Thank you Dvincent for your time to look into this matter.
I used a legato trumpet patch from opus played from Gigastudio in combination with the Performance tool. Would there be a way to introduce the random tuning trick in Gigastudio?

Ruud Jan

[Little Red King]

I second the suggestion for trying Wivi (Wallander). The demo download gives a reasonable idea of its capabilities and represents a risk-free way of deciding if it can work for you.

[koolkeys]

What about Milestone Trumpet? It's from www.soundfonts.it and is by the guy who did Mr. Ray and other instruments. It's cheap too.

Brent

[germancomponist]

There are 3 things that stand out as "synth" trumpets to me in the clip.

One is perfect tuning. I like to add some random modulation (in Kontakt2) to the tuning of some solo instruments to loosen up that auto tune sound. About .10 to .20 percent is all that is needed. This modulator alters the tuning slightly throughout the duration of the note.

Two is the legato. There seems to be some timing problems in these transitions. To my ear it sometimes sounds as if the players are articulating a soft tongue and then transitioning from the old note to the new one. Also the transition time and speed is very regular regardless of interval or phrase considerations. The first four notes sound the most convincing to me.

Three is phrasing. The trumpet plays 75% of the cue without breathing. To me that always sticks out as programmed.

As belbin said, expressive trumpets are still a weaker instrument in sampled instruments in regards to realism.

Overall I like the music. Very nice melodic writing.

I agree 100%!

I have listend to the movie and thought the same as you, Dvincent.

Too much legato and less breathing are the most reasons for letting sound trumpets unnaturally.... .

02051964, why did you use this bassdrum in this fine piece..... :( ?

Best,

Gunther

[dvincent]

Would there be a way to introduce the random tuning trick in Gigastudio?

I am not very familiar with Giga, so I am not sure. I would imagine there is a way to do it. What I do in Kontakt is add an LFO modulator in the source area. There is an option for "random" among the usual suspects (sine, sawtooth...). I then set it to control pitch and set the scaling.

[Crossingsound]

I like combining Screaming trumpets and mixing it with my ew Gold. Got some decent results with lots of close attention to the programming (using stac notes and long notes and such to achieve decent realism, good layering).

Listened to your video, nice, though I think there is a bit too much use of legato sliding on your trumpet part that is making it sound more synthy then it should.

Its a pretty nice sound your trumpets, But perhaps using some stac notes infront of some of these to give a nice attack and lay back on the fake legato sliding a bit (not all, just a few of them in a row sounded really synthy)

wallander looks interesting.

[RJBMusic]

Quote: "02051964, why did you use this bassdrum in this fine piece..... ?"

Because I'm dealing with Morons most of the time who can't appreciate a nice arrangement!
It seems that almost all of the people that are in the decision chairs don't have a clue about music. So in this case they damanded that I added kick to give it more pulse.

I always thought that the sliding samples in the performance legato patches enhanced the 'realness' of the sound.
Maybe I have to reconsider.

As far as the Wivi is considered; to me this has a very unnatural synthy feel.
It absolutely is very clever and reproduces a lot of natural aspects but in the whole there is something that turns me off. A lack of depth, warmth or something.

[Crossingsound]

Yeah,

I think your sound is nice, but I think if you just program them a tad differet you will get a much better performance from your sounds, like what has been mentioned, and think of what a real trumpet player in your room would do, and not do. Really, the weakest link is overuse of the sliding, it is a very nice feature, but I would use it more in moderation as it is causing the most synthy-ness of the notes, at least to me. Dont be afraid to use some stac notes too and a few other tricks to get the most from them.

Trumpets are really hard to get to sound authentic, one of the hardest I think.

[Steve_Karl]

The biggest problem with the trumpet sound IMHO is the attacks, the bends (glide) and the lack of endings to the phrases where one would take a breath.

A trumpet can not sound like the trumpet in your piece, although a very very small trombone might get close.

Take it from a trumpet player since the age of 7.
Even if you're trying to play legato the valve switches still make it very "trumpet like."
Legato on a trumpet will always have the valve motion that creates an audible devision between the notes and the transition between the notes is pretty 'exact' ( no glide ).
When the valve is half way down no decent sound is coming out of the bell so there's a dead spot between each note of a legato phrase. Listen to some recordings of real players.

You'd be better off with attack on each note. Stronger attacks for when there is tounging, slightly lighter velocity during sustained breath phrases that are valve switched.

The bends (glide between the notes ) sound unrealistic.
If that's the programming you did it Kontakt then I'd scrap the conscept and play it straight.

I really think the composition is nice. Great work there!

[Ashermusic]

All this discussion, and others like it, rest on the idea that we should be using sample libraries to get as close to the real thing as possible.

This idea IMHO is illusory at best. We have a saying about samples here in L.A., "It sounds like the real thing until you put it next to the real thing."

My goal has never been to make it sound "real" but to make it sound good. This means that sometimes instead of dead-on trumpet I am trying to achieve "trumpet-ish."

I recommend to all of you that you lose the obsession of trying to get your sample libraries to sound exactly like the real thing, unless of course that is specifically what you are hired to do.

[jeremy.saenz]

All this discussion, and others like it, rest on the idea that we should be using sample libraries to get as close to the real thing as possible.

This idea IMHO is illusory at best. We have a saying about samples here in L.A., "It sounds like the real thing until you put it next to the real thing."

My goal has never been to make it sound "real" but to make it sound good. This means that sometimes instead of dead-on trumpet I am trying to achieve "trumpet-ish."

I recommend to all of you that you lose the obsession of trying to get your sample libraries to sound exactly like the real thing, unless of course that is specifically what you are hired to do.

I agree. I think that unless your job is to create super realistic mockups, that we should stop wasting time (And money *cough cough*VSL SC*cough*) and really focus on our compositions and creativity. Do what sounds good and adds to your peice. Samples nowadays can bring alot of life to your compositions without having to sound exactly like the real thing.

Are we composers or should we spend most of our time making an ultra realistic peice.

I think we can all help out by not critisizing someones composition because it doesn't sound like the real thing. That is the beauty of computer music! Do whatever you want and can to emit an emotion.

That's just my $0.02

God Bless,

Jeremy

[germancomponist]

Are we composers or should we spend most of our time making an ultra realistic peice.
Jeremy

Oh, we often have to produce an ultra realistic piece here for tv.... . No money for a real orchestra but they want a maxi-sounding-soundtrack.... .

Gunther

[Daryl]

I agree. I think that unless your job is to create super realistic mockups, that we should stop wasting time (And money *cough cough*VSL SC*cough*) and really focus on our compositions and creativity. Do what sounds good and adds to your peice. Samples nowadays can bring alot of life to your compositions without having to sound exactly like the real thing.

Are we composers or should we spend most of our time making an ultra realistic peice.

I think we can all help out by not critisizing someones composition because it doesn't sound like the real thing. That is the beauty of computer music! Do whatever you want and can to emit an emotion.

That's just my $0.02

God Bless,

Jeremy
I don't know why you single out VSL. Do you even have any of their products?

Back to the original question. As I've been unable to hear any of the sythy trumpets, I can only guess from what other people have said. In order to program something that sounds at all realistic you have to understand a lot about how the instruments are played. For example, with brass you need breathing spaces, not too many legato notes in a row and small diminuendos on most long help notes. so that one hears the attack and then the sound fades.

D

[jeremy.saenz]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to single out VSL. I really love it's performance engine. I just don't beleive that you have to invest in a quite expensive & extensive library to create something great! I have heard people say that they liked the sound of a GPO compostition more than a VSL composition & vice-versa

[Daryl]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to single out VSL. I really love it's performance engine. I just don't beleive that you have to invest in a quite expensive & extensive library to create something great! I have heard people say that they liked the sound of a GPO compostition more than a VSL composition & vice-versa
Fair enough.

FWIW I have 2 copies of both the Cube and most of the other VI stuff, and consider it to be worth every penny. I couldn't have done the show that I did last summer with any other sample library, either as fast, or to an acceptable standard.

D

[germancomponist]

I have heard people say that they liked the sound of a GPO compostition more than a VSL composition & vice-versa

It is always what a composer and/or arranger is doing with a library... .

There are many awesome pieces made with Garritan`s GPO! I am sure you also can find many bad sounding pieces who are recorded with VSL or other big libraries.... .

[Crossingsound]

Well just keep in mind what this topic is about, that the composer IS getting some critisism on the realism of his trumpet sounds, so therefore suggestions on how to make it sound more real is very relavant.

I do understand to a point about not going overboard for realism, but professionally I don't think thats good overall advice, to forget realism and just create, because a good midi composition will both sound good sound and music wise, and if you are doing it for a living, no one wants to get a midi fake sounding orchestra peice, no matter how good the playing is, if it sounds like an old casio keyboard, it just won't fly. So there can be creative liscence in the writing, but staying true to realism is very important to believability.

[Ashermusic]

Oh, we often have to produce an ultra realistic piece here for tv.... . No money for a real orchestra but they want a maxi-sounding-soundtrack.... .

Gunther

Gunther, I can create a "maxi-sounding-soundtrack.... ." without focusing on making the orchestra sound dead-on real. Most of the scores that fit that description are orchestra/synth hybrids anyway.

At the end of the day it is about playing the picture.

[Ashermusic]

Well just keep in mind what this topic is about, that the composer IS getting some critisism on the realism of his trumpet sounds, so therefore suggestions on how to make it sound more real is very relavant.

I do understand to a point about not going overboard for realism, but professionally I don't think thats good overall advice, to forget realism and just create, because a good midi composition will both sound good sound and music wise, and if you are doing it for a living, no one wants to get a midi fake sounding orchestra peice, no matter how good the playing is, if it sounds like an old casio keyboard, it just won't fly. So there can be creative liscence in the writing, but staying true to realism is very important to believability.

You are missing my point. A "fake sounding orchestra peice (sic) " is not my idea of good sounding either. What I am saying is that the very best cello sample i.e., while it may sound closest to real may not sound, indeed probably will NOT sound, as good as i.e. a cello sample doubled with an analog synth to warm it up a little.

Way back in the 90's when I was scoring the TV series "Zorro" I frequently doubled the real celli with a Memorymoog. and to this day when I listen to those cues they sound really good to me. (Ironically lately I am getting a lot of emails from Europeans requesting a "Zorro" soundtrack :)

What I am saying is that folks should not get too hung up on how real it sounds IF it sounds really good. Sounding "synthy" is not sounding really good."

[PeterRoos]

I still use Dan Dean Solo Brass along with all ProjectSAM libs and some VSL Opus 1 brass (for softer passages).
Dan Dean's brass is very dry and thus needs carefull ER and EQ treatment, but IMO it is still top notch stuff.
To allow for unison passages I have made 2nd and 3rd instruments for TP, TB and Horn by using the old "semi-tone" shift trick.

My 2cts ;-)

PS: btw, my site is down for a day...
you can check some tracks of mine also at http://composersforum.ning.com/profile/Emano1

Cheers,

[SyQuEsT]

Sounds good, no synthy at all. The only point could be the dynamic (maybe a little smooth) so use a marcato patch (I don't know if you have this in Opus, I had VSL Cube ... now VSL VI). The legato is good for a solo part but in an epic sound, this is smooth.

If you want a big trumpet sound but stay with VSL, buy the Special Brass ... (don't forget to buy an usb key). I have it and it's wonderful :)

My 2 cents ... ;)

[Crossingsound]

Ashermusic

not sure how I am missing the point, once again the composer said he is getting hits on not real sounding trumpets, so suggestions on how to make them real are totally valid (whether they be in the programming or sound choices)


I personally don't overdue the realism thing, however, paying close attention to detail in programming is very good idea to acheiving a better overal result (and thus the overall sound of the track as well). Specially if the music IS gonna be handed off to real players, then realism is a must, otherwise there won't be a good translation. For me, paying attention to that advice has helped my orchestral cues 100 fold, not saying they are absolutely dead on what real players would do, but trying to get close has really helped.

Whether overdubbing a synth track to help beef up a sound works or not, that is totally kewl, I know what you are saying, but his trumpets do sound fake in the programming and I can understand why there is a little critisism. It is easily fixed though.

[Ashermusic]

Ashermusic

not sure how I am missing the point, once again the composer said he is getting hits on not real sounding trumpets, so suggestions on how to make them real are totally valid (whether they be in the programming or sound choices)


I personally don't overdue the realism thing, however, paying close attention to detail in programming is very good idea to acheiving a better overal result (and thus the overall sound of the track as well). Specially if the music IS gonna be handed off to real players, then realism is a must, otherwise there won't be a good translation. For me, paying attention to that advice has helped my orchestral cues 100 fold, not saying they are absolutely dead on what real players would do, but trying to get close has really helped.

Whether overdubbing a synth track to help beef up a sound works or not, that is totally kewl, I know what you are saying, but his trumpets do sound fake in the programming and I can understand why there is a little critisism. It is easily fixed though.

Fine but the issue to me is not that they sound fake, it is that they don't sound good.

[Steve_Karl]

I recommend to all of you that you lose the obsession of trying to get your sample libraries to sound exactly like the real thing, unless of course that is specifically what you are hired to do.

You assume "all of you ( us ) " are obsessed with ..... !?!?!?

Hello ? Reality check please. )(~

[germancomponist]

Can someone post a short piece, played with real trumpets?

Then, let us all arrange this with our libraries and lets hear... .:)

That would be beautiful!:D *()

[Ashermusic]

You assume "all of you ( us ) " are obsessed with ..... !?!?!?

Hello ? Reality check please. )(~

EXCUUUSE ME! To those of you.... :)

[mahlon]

I think Gunther has a good idea. Someone come up with a sample they feel is typical of the trumpet cannon, and then we all mock it up and discuss the achievements and shortcomings. A good common sense idea. Puts your money where your mouth is, as we say -- and we'll learn a lot to boot.

Mahlon

[bluejay]

Ok, well I'm not posting a real piece but I'll post a very quick mockup I did of a very famous piece with very exposed brass.

http://www.jamessemple.com/music/smarch.mp3

This did not take long. It's done with the WIVI and I used 4 MIDI tracks (there's one note of tuba in there) with polyphonic mode. There are 4 trumpets so I had to double up one of the instruments but they're all slightly detuned from each other anyway.

Reverb is from Altiverb and percussion is from True Strike. Yes, it's not bang on like the original but I was very impressed with it and I've hardly owned WIVI for long. I still don't even have a breath controller and was having to use the mod wheel.

[Steve_Karl]

EXCUUUSE ME! To those of you.... :)

Just razzzzin' ya Jay. :-)

[Marcussen]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to single out VSL. I really love it's performance engine. I just don't beleive that you have to invest in a quite expensive & extensive library to create something great! I have heard people say that they liked the sound of a GPO compostition more than a VSL composition & vice-versa

It depends on what your needs are I guess. I absolutely need VSL for the work I do, and no other library would be able to take it's place.

VSL has made me back it's cost many times over.

[Nick Harvey]

It depends on what your needs are I guess. I absolutely need VSL for the work I do, and no other library would be able to take it's place.

VSL has made me back it's cost many times over.

I completely agree with you Christian. Buying VSL has been an absolute investment for me.

[jcn7]

Please find here:http://www.wallanderinstruments.com/audio/Floyd%20Ferguson%20Plays.mp3 a quickly made mp3 using a trumpet patch I'm currently working on in WIVI. It's a "Maynard" like trumpet playing against a Pink Floyd-like groove. Again, this was quickly done, so forgive my playing and mastering skills...this is really just ment to show that WIVI is very lively and has great interactive abillities. Thanks. Jaime

[Rob Elliott]

In order to program something that sounds at all realistic you have to understand a lot about how the instruments are played. For example, with brass you need breathing spaces, not too many legato notes in a row and small diminuendos on most long help notes. so that one hears the attack and then the sound fades.

D


In addition to this excellent advice (about concurrent legato notes and the us of diminuendos) - using the 'special brass' trpts WITH the new cornet gives whole new set of options.

As with others -- the 'sound' of VSL has gotten me work and paid for the 'investment' many times over. Most of what I do is NOT recorded with live instruments later on. I have to produce the final mix for dubbing with samples. Can't imagine not having VSL to accomplish this goal.


Rob

[germancomponist]

Please find here:http://www.wallanderinstruments.com/audio/Floyd%20Ferguson%20Plays.mp3 a quickly made mp3 using a trumpet patch I'm currently working on in WIVI. It's a "Maynard" like trumpet playing against a Pink Floyd-like groove. Again, this was quickly done, so forgive my playing and mastering skills...this is really just ment to show that WIVI is very lively and has great interactive abillities. Thanks. Jaime

It seems that I have to record a pretty nice piece with my old Casio CZ 1000.... :D :)