Strings strings strings! an HONEST opinion. [Archive]

Nick Phoenix

01-28-2002, 01:45 AM

The more I mess with Garritans strings, the less I like them. I think it might be possible to make a string library that didn\'t take long to master and would sound great no matter what patch you used. GOS is an impressive achievement, but is all that excellent programming concealing something? Or am I crazy? It is certainly the best string library out there so far. Is it possible to sample strings that would sound better than GOS? I don\'t know. I keep thinking back to a comment that someone on this forum posted twice. Something about playing GOS all night with mouth open and then realizing that was just the first patch. Doesn\'t do that for me. So here is my superficial overview of GOS. Tons of good sounding patches, although a little too dry for my tastes. Nice cellos in general. Basses sound small, not enough fast attack stuff. Violas and violins have some nice faster attack patches, just not fast enough and nice fx and unusual bowing styles. Some nice sustains, but no flowing beautiful airy sustains. Some sustains, like the all violins vibrato, sound poor. The library does not sound like it was recorded in a hall. Sounds like the smaller room at Lincoln Center. The library generally lacks big dynamics and sounds thin. That generally comes from a smaller non reverberant space. Still, a great library, with the best programming around, just not a final solution (there aren’t many of those, if any). I have been getting some good results layering things and adding reverb, but I guess I was expecting GOS to rescue me from this mind numbing practise. This is my opinion as a composer. I am not planning a string library. Maybe I have missed something, but I can’t find big flowing strings in this library. I would trade the whole thing for one super lush patch. Am I the only one, or has the hype machine consumed you all? I think a great sound is top priority, everything else is secondary. By the way, London Percussion is very impressive and Mirislav\'s choir is nice, but mellow. I didn\'t get to hear Sonic Implants strings.

Scott Speed

01-28-2002, 04:43 AM

Yep...you\'ve hit it right on the head...Gary isn\'t really a sample developer...he\'s a spy and the cds are actually a delivery system for top secret military codes. The nation is grateful that you, Nick Phoenix, have finally cracked this spy ring...no...on second thought, you are crazy...
You\'re entitled to your opinion, and I\'d never argue otherwise...but the difference between Gary and you is that Gary would never come on here and openly bash a fellow developers library for no apparent reason in such a shady manner. Its not what you said, its how you said it...I think it shows incredibly poor taste, and it\'s something you seem to do over and over again in this group...

Regards,
Scott

snip...but is all that excellent programming concealing something? Or am I crazy?

snip...Am I the only one, or has the hype machine consumed you all?

[This message has been edited by Scott Speed (edited 01-28-2002).]

Damon

01-28-2002, 04:49 AM

Yeah I agree. Sample Developers shouldn\'t post negative opinions about other developers work. Nick, you should know how difficult and time consuming this stuff is.
You\'re definitely entitled to your own opinion and you do great work as well, but it seems you did this in a past thread about Dan Deans woodwinds as well after hearing them at the NAMM show last year. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-28-2002).]

KingIdiot

01-28-2002, 08:27 AM

Guys,

Nick is entitled to his own opinion and can share just the same as all of us. Just because he\'s a developer doesn\'t mean he doesn\'t have the right to say what he thinks.

Nick,

I dont think you needed to be so casual to the good things and forceful the the bad things. Plus I think you should really have compared GOS with other strings libraries, but its more of a bash on GOS.

The thing I really enjoy about GOS is the fact that Gary actually takes into consideration of what the users want for updates, or offers help in getting a particular sound. Instead of bashing the library, maybe you should have posed some questions to Gary and the GOS group of users.

yes tweaking is part of what GOS is about, and \"learning\" it is also what its about.

GOS isn\'t perfect. I too find the basses are problematic at times, because they seem too close.

The short bow issue with low strings is being addressed.

Would you be the only one who would trade it in for one lush string patch? I doubt it. There are enough people out their clammoring for that one \"perfect\" patch, ready to be ignorant to everything else. I, for the life of me, cant understand why one would want to trade in all the other cool sounds in GOS for one patch that will get old really quickly, and everybody and their grandmother will use exactly the same way ALL THE TIME. now if it was Playable with EXP control, thats a different story, but would probably take some time learning how to use.

I spoke with Gary at length about a \"lush\" string patch with wide vibrato and he wants to offer an update at some point with patches with more vibrato. This would either include re recording smaller sections with more vibrato or another method, but wants to offer it to the GOS user community as a free update.

I\'m sorry but all this is unheard of in the sample community. Multiple free updates? Of *user requests*? That blows my mind, and is why I did updates on my own accord for GOS. I wasn\'t asked by Gary to do them and I am not being paid for it. I\'m giving to a community of users. Which is also one of the reasons I love GOS. Users that share ideas and experiences. Which again helps shape the library with future updates of both the software and samples. Maybe its so radically different that one doesn\'t think to ask for changes or share opinions in a non destructive manner.

Now about the sound. I remember playing the violins when I first got GOS and I really dug them. Over time I was able to pick out what I didn\'t like in the library, but when I first got them I was blown away. Not to mention sound is so much a matter of opinion nowadays.

I can understand one posting the bad about then not saying so much about the good if there were other libraries in its league or other libraries that would \"do\". But IMO there aren\'t any libraries out that will do or in its league at this point. Maybe the SI strings will out do GOS, maybe not. I just dont think it should go so unoticed (or barely mentioned) that there isn\'t anything out there like GOS.

And...is all that good programming hiding something? No. Unless you\'re deaf. The sound doesn\'t change because of the programming. The programming is one of the best features, yes, and should NOT be ignored. If, developers especially, ignore this we are in for some crap libraries in the future. The programming is still why I am so dissapointed with other libraries. Simple velocity splits just dont do it for expressive instruments.

ah whatever. everyone needs all the freaking libraries thats jsut all it comes down to. Then one can compare on their own and find the plusses and minuses of all of the libraries.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 01-28-2002).]

Francis Belardino

01-28-2002, 09:00 AM

I have to agree with one thing that, Nick did say.

It is very hard to get lush, soft and tender lines with GOS.
I said that the first day I bought GOS and I was lead to believe that I was doing something wrong.

Other than that...GOS is worth every penny and when you compare what you get with GOS VS. Other libraries…it is priced right. Not, over priced… like MANY!

This is the first library I bought that did not give me that feeling of being out in the cold. Updates are wonderful but, the care and respect GOS gives their users really makes you feel like you have made a smart investment.

I will go on record and say... I will not buy another library unless it is backed by the Garritan name. I, like many, have spent countless $$$ only to be disappointed. IMO,
GOS is a new standard in many things.

PS. About the lush string thing...
I’m sure Gary will take care of it and not charge us to do so.

Like I said... a new standard in many things.

------------------
Francis Belardino
fbelardino@audiovisionsonline.com (\"fbelardino@audiovisionsonline.com\")

Sound Designer
Audio Visions, LTD.
Wilmington, DE.

www.audiovisionsonline.com (\"http://www.audiovisionsonline.com\")

Franky

01-28-2002, 09:03 AM

Ok... after thinking about this all day :
If you bought a library and you don\'t like it you have all the right to come on here and say anything you want about it even if you\'re a developper, expect the same from other developpers though....

As long as you are not writing in a thread about your new library and saying that another developper\'s library is not as good as yours i don\'t see why it shouldn\'t be accepted, as long as you are not selling a similar product...

Personally, i would\'ve first emailed Gary Garritan and spoke to him about this and maybe he could\'ve helped in some way, but then again i didn\'t spend 1000 us dollars on a string library. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Franky.

[This message has been edited by Franky (edited 01-28-2002).]

Veron

01-28-2002, 09:57 AM

Mr.Nick

I was wondering if you were making or going
to make Quantum Leap Strings .
Because I love the quality of Quantum Leap Brass.I hope your thinking of making it.
It will be nice if the price is
about the same as Quantum Leap Brass.

Thank you for reading.

Veron

franz

01-28-2002, 10:11 AM

I have only heard GOS at NAMM briefly.
The Celli were on the left?
The Violins in the middle?
And without reverb the sound is ....???
Note offs?
Dynamics..?
Stereo image..?

As a classical engineer from Vienna I was surprised. But maybe the hype had set my expectations too high.
franZ

Haydn

01-28-2002, 10:45 AM

I think Franz is stoned!! I can guarantee that the Cellos are on the right and that the violins are to the left before adding panning! I\'m not sure what he\'s talking about without reverb - all demos were given with some reverb at NAMM. Most libraries will sound strange without reverb as that\'s not how you naturally hear them. Also, it was quite loud at NAMM and it would be very hard to give a definitive review based on what was heard there.

Franz, can you give more examples on what you expect with dynamics, stereo imaging, note-offs?

I find it hard to purchase any more of your libraries with the comments you post on this forum! The quality of your demos on your site are not impressive.

Lance_M

01-28-2002, 10:45 AM

First off, I don\'t own GOS, but there\'s no doubt in my mind that it\'s a very fine library. However, it just doesn\'t offer the sound I\'m going for. So I have no great feelings toward it, and certainly no ill feelings, which means I have no predetermined bias toward anyone here.

That said, I can\'t believe some of y\'all are jumping on Nick for offering his opinion. If he doesn\'t have the right to be critical of something, what gives you the right to be critical of him?

I don\'t understand the \"he\'s a developer, too\" comments. I don\'t see Nick and Gary competing with each other quite yet. Does Nick have a string library out on the market? Nah-uh. Does Gary have a brass or rare instruments library? Nopers. Nick, in addition to being a sample developer, is also a composer. He\'s had a go with GOS, and is giving his comments on it. Whether it\'s praise or not isn\'t the issue. If it WAS praise, would you be saying \"Wow, he\'s a competitor! Why\'s he speaking such kind things of GOS?\"

I\'m just going to stop myself before I start rambling (that, and I\'ve also already kinda lost the point I had in my head http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/tongue.gif), because I don\'t see any problem with what Nick said, and I\'m sure Gary doesn\'t either, as he seems an extremely reasonable person.

[This message has been edited by Lance_M (edited 01-28-2002).]

Francis Belardino

01-28-2002, 12:28 PM

\"Am I the only one, or has the hype machine consumed you all?\"

Not nearly as much as the hype for VotA.

Sorry, but I just dont feel happy about that purchase. Perhaps, the updates will change my mind. I hope so.

IMO, of course.

KingIdiot

01-28-2002, 12:41 PM

I think Raven\'s the one Smoking the Weed.

Even Nick himself has stated his Orch Brass could be better.

Dan Dean and Marteen have new stuff coming out that should help Brass. Gary\'s got brass and Woods which should be great.

I hear some of hte newer orchestral demos and am amazed that the strings sound more realistic than the Brass and Winds now (Thomas J withstanding). This wasn\'t the case before GOS.

Another thing. I agree with Bruce. Its a toolbox, more than a synth patch. Tho Gary\'s idea to make more patches available via updates can give the \"I want it now\" people a way out. The library is ever evolving.

Raven, there are updates coming down the pipe help with harder attacks. As well, there are ideas I have that could make for pre programmed EXP ideas. WIhtout GOs they would be impossible

I even have some basic edits to the GS instruments that might help to make basic expression out of the box as well.

Nick,

Define \"lush\" in terms of what you\'re looking for. Is it more like a \"soft thick pad\" or is it big loud wide vibrato?

Id like to try and think of ways that one could get this sound or a way Gary may be able to offer it in an update or option. Why didnn\'t oyu jsut ask in the first place?

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

Simon Ravn

01-28-2002, 12:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Raven:

To me wetness is easy to simulate with good reverbs, but expression not, so I can take QLB and add some reverb, the expression is there however.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don\'t even want to discuss this. Adding artificial reverb will just not give you the right sound...

Raven

01-28-2002, 12:53 PM

Even Nick himself has stated his Orch Brass could be better.

I think its great that a developer can state that his library needs improvement, thats why I think Nick will prove it again!

Many sit and AWE over their library, even though Gary has updates, I do not ever hear him saying theres room for improvement on these forums.

All I hear is AWE over Garritan, and I am once again reminded by other users their dissatisfaction with this product. GOS is not all what its made to be!

Now what I find interesting is that most Beta Testers AWE this product. But people like me and others who were not on the Team are the real first time users.

This tells me that one has to be \"nice\" to the Gos library otherwise your seen as maybe a bad guy if you were on the Beta team and badmouth such a AWESOME product.

Well I was not on that team and can therefore express my real opinion with other non beta users on the dissatisfaction of this product. After all I am the consumer!

Raven

[This message has been edited by Raven (edited 01-28-2002).]

Francis Belardino

01-28-2002, 12:55 PM

Hey King.

I do not want to sit on the side that may be trashing (if that is what this is or was) GOS.

But, I have bugged you about lush and GOS before. I, as much as I love GOS and the team, feel the samples seem harsh. I find it hard to create tear-jerking stuff, ya know what I mean!
It\'s in every movie. Did you see CAST AWAY? The only music in the film is a string section...so so so, soft and tearful.

That to me is the only thing GOS lacks but I believe that will change. So, as I said before, I am proud to be a GOS user and I look forward to updates.

PS. Thank you for the sound design work in GOS. I can\'t wait for updates2.

Simon Ravn

01-28-2002, 01:08 PM

Francis, try using sordino patches, especially for violins and violas. On top of that you could add normal viola/violin sections, mixed properly, and take out some of the harshness by EQ\'ing -6db or so at 1500hz and 2900-3400hz. Be careful not to take out too much though or the strings will begin to sound thin and synthlike.

KingIdiot

01-28-2002, 01:09 PM

Raven,

You said that QLB proved brass has been done, now you\'re saying it can be better.

Look man I think Strings can be better as well, but strings are far better than Brass and Woods in my opinion in the sampling world.

As for Gary and not saying it can be improved.....

Free updates? Filling user requests? That seems like trying to make improvement to a product to me. Much better than buying another library IMO.

Francis,

Yah soft expressive strings are problematic at the moment. With the GR Detache updates it should be better.

All,

I never thought That GOS was the end all string library, but I do think its the best out at the moment. When SI\'s strings come out there will be more to compare to. Its possible that the sound will be closer to what some people want, and people will go that route. I thought about buying KH to use with GOS, but then decided to wait and see about the new solo strings libraries, then SI announced so I may look at ensembles again.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

Francis Belardino

01-28-2002, 01:13 PM

Look at King and S.Ravn. Bang! Within seconds they offer a solution. No bashing me or GOS...just a, \"hey, I hear you and try this.\"

THAT IS GREAT!!!

BRAVO!

[This message has been edited by Francis Belardino (edited 01-28-2002).]

Damon

01-28-2002, 01:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
take out some of the harshness by EQ\'ing -6db or so at 1500hz and 2900-3400hz. Be careful not to take out too much though or the strings will begin to sound thin and synthlike.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the tip Simon http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif. Do you EQ like that on the violas and celli as well or just violins?

PatS

01-28-2002, 01:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Francis Belardino:
Look at King and S.Ravn. Bang! Within seconds they offer a solution. No bashing me or GOS...just a, \"hey, I hear you and try this.\"

THAT IS GREAT!!!

BRAVO!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that\'s the real value of this forum! Thanks, King and Simon.

Pat

Simon Ravn

01-28-2002, 01:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Raven:

Many sit and AWE over their library, even though Gary has updates, I do not ever hear him saying theres room for improvement on these forums.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does a developer have to say the exact words like that to make you understand it? The facts that Gary and Tom (and King Idiot etc) work on and bring out updates, isn\'t that enough indication to you to get into your becoming-damn-irritating-head that these people DO know that the product is not perfect?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

All I hear is AWE over Garritan, and I am once again reminded by other users their dissatisfaction with this product. GOS is not all what its made to be!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, you\'re really getting on my nerves. You know why, first of all? On january 17 you hadn\'t bought GOS - have you bought it now? It certainly sounds like it. So tell me - have you? And if so, you managed to push it to its potential already?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Now what I find interesting is that most Beta Testers AWE this product. But people like me and others who were not on the Team are the real first time users.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you HAVE bought the library? Right?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
This tells me that one has to be \"nice\" to the Gos library otherwise your seen as maybe a bad guy if you were on the Beta team and badmouth such a AWESOME product.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see no reason to badmouth GOS - that is why I am not doing it. I have said it before, that I find three problems with the library. 1) The lack of heavy vibrato patches, and 2) The lack of really aggresive staccatos, 3) The basses are a bit too close mic\'ed. That\'s it. Apart from that the soundquality and amount of articulations in this library will cause me to make very few trips back to the older libraries. Kirk Hunter has some nice aggressive patches - but on its own I think it sounds too unnatural. The GOS/KH combination seem promising for aggresive strings though.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Well I was not on that team and can therefore express my real opinion with other non beta users on the dissatisfaction of this product. After all I am the consumer!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This must mean that you have indeed bought the library! What a weird thing to do between january 17 and now, since you were so unsatisfied with demos and everything you knew about the library back then.

Deep White

01-28-2002, 01:22 PM

I think Nick has the right to express negative comments about his competiters\' works, but I really don\'t like the way he talked. There were insults in his words, to Gary, and to users who every said they loved GOS.

I agreed with Nick in some things. What did I do? I e-mailed Gary and let him know what I wanted in the next upgrade. I don\'t come here and insult him.

If Nick\'s attitude can be applied to himself, then why can\'t I say this:

Nick, as much as I love your QL56 library, your old QL Guitars & Basses library was one that made me feel my money was wasted. There was simply too much noise in the acoustic guitar sample (and just think a lot of people calling you a great sample library producer? give me a break). The powerchord samples are either too thin or too sharp; the programming of some samples just makes them totally unusable - and I can\'t imagine there are that many people saying that much good things about this library? What\'s wrong with them?

I didn\'t say this, because I don\'t have to. If I had been in this forum at that time, I would have put it in another way, more modest, because what I think is what \"I\" think, and no matter how much of them are true I can always be polite.

Arys Chien

Francis Belardino

01-28-2002, 01:23 PM

The more I read Nick\'s post...

I have to believe that this was not a bash attempt but merely an observation from a composers point of view.

Forget Nick the sample developer. I think this was Nick the composer talking.

Kind of makes me feel better anyway http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

The guy is a top notch composer. I think he knows what he is talking about.
Right or wrong.

Simon Ravn

01-28-2002, 01:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Damon:

Thanks for the tip Simon http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif. Do you EQ like that on the violas and celli as well or just violins?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course the best thing is to use your ears. Find out which frequencies are irritating you and get rid of some of them. But it\'s around those figures for violins, violas prolly a bit lower. Cellos I don\'t do that much to generally.

Bruce A. Richardson

01-28-2002, 01:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Francis Belardino:
I have to agree with one thing that, Nick did say.

It is very hard to get lush, soft and tender lines with GOS.
I said that the first day I bought GOS and I was lead to believe that I was doing something wrong.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are programming GOS (or any orchestral sustained type libraries) professionally, one investment which will pay off 100 times its price is a wind controller.

GOS EXP patches, when played with a wind controller, are expressive beyond compare. I believe it is very strong proof of concept, and as a person who has used both methods, I can say honestly that it beats the Mod Wheel EXP technique hands down. Since we all know how to express ourselves with air, whether it\'s talking or singing or playing a wind instrument, a wind controller is a very immediate way to attach expression to samples. I simply go into the GS editor and create a copy of each EXP patch, with the attenuation controller changed from Mod Wheel to breath. Everything else falls perfectly into place. Matter of fact GOS is quite unique in being a library that responds correctly to wind control information due to its construction. Often times, when a library is constructed in typical velocity switched layers, using a wind controller results in \"double attenuation.\" The GOS methodology, crossfading rather than attenuating upon CC2 input, allows perfect control.

There will never be a do all end all sample library. I don\'t understand how a person couldn\'t work very well with GOS, however. It is a great value, and I can personally attribute thousands of dollars of my income to music I was inspired to write by it so far.

What more can be said than that? GOS pays for itself very quickly. I remember when I made my living with tools that are laughable by today\'s standards. I got by, we all did. We all live and learn and grow, and our craft and our tools improve over the years. I don\'t understand the negativism I see here at times. We are the luckiest musicians ever born to the planet to have so many amazing choices. We are fortunate to live in a day and age where we can debate the merits of various desktop music producing tools.

I have a great deal of respect for anyone that develops sampleware. I think we should all just be thankful, be supportive of each other as artists, and lift each other up. That is the whole point of community--when one of us succeeds, we all succeed a little more.

A_Sapp

01-28-2002, 01:51 PM

By all means, please post negative and positive opinions on products. It just seems that if we don\'t, we would be shadowing some true flaws in libraries, thus, telling lies in a sense. But of course, no library is perfect, and everyones\' acceptance of quality to different libraries is different. Since sample developers are dedicated to quality, their opinions are naturally much more critical than non-developers. We\'re still in the infant stage of sampling in my opinion, and I\'m sure in the future, limitations will become short in what you can do, and possibilities will present itself. So, again, post neg/pos. opinions on products.

Francis Belardino

01-28-2002, 02:02 PM

Bruce.

Is there a big learning curve with a wind controller.

I play Bass/Guitar/Synchs/Piano.
Never played any wind instrument?

01-28-2002, 02:07 PM

For goodness sake! Will you guys give it a break with all the \'ticking off\'.

Thank goodness someone (who\'s opinion seems to matter) has finally said something about the GOS other than a complete gush.

He said TWICE that it was the best library around, then said that he\'d prefer such and such. He didn\'t poison anyone\'s granny, and nothing in his post could have been construed as rude by anyone even half sane.

I have been slightly baffled by all the talk about GOS, and I welcome this kind of post from a composer.

Why can\'t people criticise without multiple pairs of knickers getting twisted? (and he hardly blasted the library - he just mentioned that he\'d prefer something other than what the product offered.)

Man, you get sick to death of always having to compliment everything in multiple sets of parentheses before you\'re \'allowed\' to say anything that might be interpreted as \'negative\' by the \'gatekeepers\'.

Nick\'s post is precisely the kind of post that makes me come back to this group - please don\'t try to \'silence him\'.

Raven

01-28-2002, 02:15 PM

I Agree

Yes Simon, I have GOS, and by far have much to learn, but to me just listening to some patches it does not astound me at all. It was your Et Demo that made the final decision for me.

Forgive me if I sounded harsh, I am just telling you what my expeiences are.

I think you are all great composers, as I have much respect for your music.

I just dont see eye to eye on this one, but will use it anyway and see if the updates will be better.

Raven

[This message has been edited by Raven (edited 01-28-2002).]

PatS

01-28-2002, 02:34 PM

Both negative and positive comments should be allowed and welcomed on this forum. As for my post, I tried to say, among other things, that my relationship with Gary, Tom and GOS is such that I don\'t feel it appropriate to share my complaints publicly. Others feel differently about this matter, and that\'s fine (the aggressive tone and posturing notwithstanding). But please don\'t misconstrue my candor as deception or accuse me of being so awestruck that I can\'t see (or hear) straight.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 01-29-2002).]

Simon Ravn

01-28-2002, 02:38 PM

Actually I never responded to Nick\'s comments because I thought they were valid, but personal, comments. He expressed his own opinion which he is entitled to. The only slightly arrogant issue is the headline with the capital HONEST - as if nobody else have been honest?!

Raven it surprises me that you have bought GOS - you certainly didnt sound like a potential buyer on jan. 17 when you only commented on demos and how bad they were and your Roland Orchestral card was better (or was it some other synth?).

KingIdiot

01-28-2002, 02:48 PM

Francis, the Sul Altra Cordas also work well for a soft lush sound. I keep forgeting about these because of the limited range.

Nick, for the big lush solo strings try layering solo strings on top, and Eq\'ing out some of the mids in the sustain vibratos.

Yes its layering, but dont you do that with all your libraries?

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

Francis Belardino

01-28-2002, 02:51 PM

King,

You are so right. I forgot about them also.

When the extend versions of Portato is out...
this will seal the deal.

Bruce A. Richardson

01-28-2002, 03:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Francis Belardino:
Bruce.

Is there a big learning curve with a wind controller.

I play Bass/Guitar/Synchs/Piano.
Never played any wind instrument?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably in your case, yes. Then again, it\'s a worthy pursuit and not impossible. Mine is a Yamaha WX5, which uses sax/flute type fingerings, so to an extent it\'s easier than some instruments to learn. In music education circles, it\'s widely observed that kids tend to become facile on sax and flute rather quickly. I play trumpet, so the wind part was easy, but I had a bit of a challenge learning to be facile with the fingering. But then again, it\'s the more expressive less technical parts that really benefit the most noticeably, although the wind controller adds extra expression to just about any applicable library.

For instance, you have to be careful when playing strings not to use too harsh of an attack, or the string character actually begins to sound like a weird string/wind instrument hybrid. I use what I\'d describe as \"whooshes\" of air rather than hard articulations, which tend to sound unnatural. On the other hand, hard articulations really benefit brass and woodwind parts, and make them much crisper than they sound recorded from a keyboard. Often in the case of brass and woodwinds, one needs to edit the release time of the library. Since there is a natural breath decay when playing a wind controller, the releases that are originally programmed tend to be too long. I have found this to be the case almost universally, so it\'s something to consider when using a wind controller.

I have on many occasions just played an out of range note on the wind controller, and played the actual part on my keyboard, by simply merging the MIDI streams. Then when editing the part, I simply erase the continuous stream of \"dummy\" notes, and only the keyboard-struck pitches remain. There are many ways to approach it.

I actually have a schtick I do live, where I trade fours with the drummer, playing Purrrfect Drums with the wind controller. It\'s fun, and people think it\'s hilarious.

I really like mine, and I think it was worth the money. I get nice results with it, and have a lot of fun. Not having played any wind instruments at all, it might be a little more difficult for you, but I\'d suspect you could master it. Even if you played recorder or song flute in elementary school, the fingerings are actually quite close to that...just more options.

Joris de Man

01-28-2002, 03:28 PM

Bruce, I\'d like to know which breathcontroller you use; I\'m still looking for one to control my Oasys and GS.

Cheers,

Joe

Haydn

01-28-2002, 03:57 PM

I agree with Simon Ravn regarding that Brass and woodwinds are the weakest part of my orchestra mockups. I find that brass is very hard to tweak. It is impossible to get double and triple tongueing to work. Attacks have to be layered for most libraries longer notes. There is no useful expressive control from soft to loud. Dan Dean didn\'t implement it because of phasing and doubling problems. This will have to be addressed before I purchase my next brass or woodwind library.

Haydn

01-28-2002, 04:19 PM

Raven,

Before making any judgments on GOS, I would recommend woodshedding with it for a month. It\'s like learning to play another instrument. With time, patience and asking for help on the GOS forum, you\'ll be rewarded. If you have any problems or think of something that needs improvement, let Gary know.

We live in a day of instant gratification. I have a feeling that many of the newer libraries coming out are going to be deeper and will need the time to learn what they do. Heck, I\'m still discovering things in my older libraries!

Damon

01-28-2002, 05:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Francis Belardino:
When the extend versions of Portato is out...this will seal the deal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree Francis. The portatos would be just about perfect for sustained strings on GOS. Just the right amount of expression with a better attack then the grand detaches.
Extremely hard to loop though. I tried last night and got horrible results http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif.
The grand detaches will probably have to do. They sound great just as well.

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-28-2002).]

David Govett

01-28-2002, 07:32 PM

Damm Nick! You have the Midas touch for creating threads that extend over several pages with the responses.

I\'m not seeing all this as a bashing of the GOS library myself. After all, using phrases like \"best string library out there\" is a complement. This library is far more than just hype though. No single string library is going to be all things to all people but this one gets real close for me. So far, I\'m keeping my expressive Miroslav ensembles and the AO upgrade 97 staccato up and down bows for real agressive attacks but other than that, I find I can use the GOS exclusively for most things when possible. It doesn\'t sound thin to me personally and certainly no thinner than the other libraries. It is not MIDIOT proof by any means. It takes a little effort to learn and use all the articulations properly but the result is very realistic. (much like Miroslav) The end result is very similar to the sound that the JW scores deliver to my ears. You do need to use some ambience\\reverb effect since the samples are not very wet. That was intentional due to the fact that many composers have actually complained about the ambience included in some samples and would prefer to control it themselves. Of course some people would prefer the opposite. Some people want different mic positions etc... GOS decided to leave the panning and ambience control with the composers and with the future of impulse response technology, things will get even better. The GOS library has been designed with the future in mind and to provide the most flexibility. Many of these issues will be resolved in the future and the users will be able have more control over thier librarie mixes than they can now believe to be possible.
When possible, I really like to try to use as much of a sigle high quality library as is possible to keep things consistent and only reach for alternative samples when it just doesn\'t quite work. Combining and layering differing libraries also works very well. I\'m certainly sold on the GOS library and I\'m not a paid endorser (none of the endorsers are by the way) and I diddn\'t actually work on the library nor was I on the beta team. I just consulted a bit in the early stages and am now helping to promote it a bit. I do benifit in seeing much of my own wish list come to reality though. I had the opportunity to personally demonstrate the library to several A list composers after the NAMM show in their own studios and every one of them ordered the next day and they are all getting extra Giga Daws just to handle these strings. We are talking about some very nice speaker systems and side by side comparisons, dry and with thier own reverb, very finicky ears and nobody commented on them sounding thin. The up and down bowings seemed to blow people away and the proper use of the Grande Detache was the clincher. I hope this feedback helps. This thread is quite positive in many ways. Nothing wrong with a little debate. Trust me. This string library can certainly handle a little criticism.
Take care
David Govett

KingIdiot

01-28-2002, 07:42 PM

You know what I think it was about the post.. was the damn formatting http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Sometimes when I read things it just gives me the wrong impression.

I added pauses inbetween areas in the actual post and I actually find its not that much of a Bash on GOS, so I\'m sorry for putting words in your mouth..er type..er whatever.

I still disagree with some of your opinions on it. And still think that you should talk to Gary directly about the problems with the library. To me part of being in the GOS community is trying to help make the library better.... not just complain about it.

In fact I\'d still like to see a wish list go up for GOS sometime soon

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

Raven

01-28-2002, 11:10 PM

I agree that this forum entitles on to freedom of speech. This is a free world, and thats why I like it.

I agree with Nick Phoenix and others that the GOS library, even impressive with programming, the sounds to me are not what I expected it to be. It sounds synthy on the Highs on Violins, and I still find myself tweaking \\fast attacks, for more Expression.

Although GOS has been Highly acclaimed, (I think more on how its programmed, and Maestro Tools), the sound is definately thin IMHO. I heard the Et mockups with Damon, SImon, and they used GOS and KH together, and I then was sold on getting GOS and KH. These two make a great combo. But to my dissapointment one spends too much time to tweak GOS and KH to get fast attacks, and strings to sound realistic. There are samples on GOS that sound very realistic, like the Grand Detaches I love em! So why not have the rest sound more realistic in bowing?

To me I am satisfied with these two libraries, and will take me forever to figure out GOS with KH. But I still do not feel excited, and that this is what I really wanted so....

To Nick Phoenix

If you can make a string library that not only gives you the quality sound that you produce, but that gives you realistic bowings of the Strings, then you will have provided us with a winner in Sound, and Programming. I find no matter how good your sound is, if its not programmed correctly, your strings sound like a keyboard is playing it. Many musicians and composers, know how the violin should sound like, but the problem comes in with spending hours and many takes to try and use Expression CC11 etc. and to sound more like the real thing.Then one sits with one hand on the slider, and one on the keyboard, and redoing the slide you missed on. Well if the programming can take care of more expression. I think you will have the best out there!

The winner Stringlibrary is thus:
SOund Quality=Realism(Programming Bowing Techniques)

My 2 cents. I personally think everyone has praised the Garritan Library too much, and I appreciate someone coming forward and giving their experiences. Guys because of this thread, the next libraries will only be better, thus improving the quality of samples

Thanks for your input Nick!!

Raven

[This message has been edited by Raven (edited 01-28-2002).]

Simon Ravn

01-28-2002, 11:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by franz:
I have only heard GOS at NAMM briefly.
The Celli were on the left?
The Violins in the middle?
And without reverb the sound is ....???
Note offs?
Dynamics..?
Stereo image..?

As a classical engineer from Vienna I was surprised. But maybe the hype had set my expectations too high.
franZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Franz, like Haydn said - been smoking some weird **** at NAMM?? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif You can pan the instruments whereever you want them. If someone panned the cellos to the left in a demo, it is his/hers \'problem\'. Note offs? No, there are no note-offs. And I\'m not sure I\'d want it, unless it sounds REALLY cool. And if it would double poly count on some of the EXP patches from 4 to 8 pr. note, I\'d definitely not care!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Stereo image? Uhm... just pan your sections as you want - there\'s your stereoimage.

Bruce Mitchell

01-28-2002, 11:17 PM

GOS is a COMPOSER\'s Tool Box of Orchestral String Instruments.It is far more than an \'instant\' gratification preset Midiot Box.

One must approach GOS in this manner. Pick up some Orchestral scores and start arranging into 1st, 2nd Violins, Violas, Cellos, Basses. Use the Sordino layers for warmth, layer the short attacks with the long sustains. Set up the correct Pan positions for the Orchestra. Add a touch of your best reverb. Use the mod wheel and Volume for EXPRESSION! Experiment with the alternating and legato capabilities.

GOS gives you the choices you need to create Realism. Violins are extremely expressive instruments and cannot be captured in 1 easy to use fool proof layer. Go to a symphony concert and listen to the real thing.

Especially important for me is to use GOS with other intruments Brass, Winds, Percussion and Piano and Harp. Record a flute or oboe solo live on top of the 1st Violin layer. Suddenly it starts to come alive. Not withstanding what may come along in terms of new String Libraries, I believe that Garritan\'s Strings will be just as beautiful and useful for a long time to come.

In fact, if other Sample Developer\'s Libraries were put together with as much skill and commitment to quality as this is I would have no need to continually purchase new ones that come along.

I believe when Garritan\'s Brass and Winds are released that we will finally see the beginnings of the True Virtual Symphony Orchestra.

Raven

01-28-2002, 11:24 PM

[I believe when Garritan\'s Brass and Winds are released that we will finally see the beginnings of the True Virtual Symphony Orchestra. [/B][/QUOTE]

I disagree.

DD and Quantum has already been proved!

Strings have not. Many are satisfied with Woodwinds and Brass but are still searching for the holy grail of Strings. Although bigger FH are always welcome.

I am not talking about arrangements, I am talking about spending lots of time with getting realistic expression control within an arrangement. To me one has to tweak GOS with Controllers endlessly before I can even start Arranging in the fashion and creativity I wish. The controlling headcahes takes time and thoughts away from my creative thinking.

A soundlibrary that Improves creativity by spending less time on tweakin, wheter you call it Midiot or any other Idiot is welcome in my book. I personally know top violinists, give them a midi Keyboard and GOS
and they wont be able to do it! But if GOS works like a virtual Violin from within the sample and sounds good, they would be able to reproduce it!

Now take Quantum Leap or DD. Play on a keyboard not much expression needed! It sounds and feels good already!

Raven

[This message has been edited by Raven (edited 01-28-2002).]

PeterRoos

01-28-2002, 11:30 PM

Raven wrote:
\"I agree that this forum entitles on to freedom of speech. This is a free country, and thats why I like it.\"

This is not a country, this is a \"world-wide\" web forum, with a lot of lurkers from all over the globe, ofcourse all in favor of freedom of speech...

;-)

Franky

01-28-2002, 11:32 PM

Scott Speed

01-28-2002, 11:44 PM

Just for the record, if anyone takes the time to reread my post, I clearly stated Nick is entitled to his opinion. I didn\'t have a problem with what he said so much as how he said it. I never said that a developer shouldn\'t criticize another\'s library...my point was that I would expect such comments from a developer to be made in a professional and constructive manner...Nick\'s comments were anything but that, and I think Gary and his team deserve a heck of a lot more respect than that. Just my two cents...take em or leave em.

Regards,
Scott

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Raven:
I agree that this forum entitles on to freedom of speech. This is a free country, and thats why I like it.

I agree with Nick Phoenix and others that the GOS library, even impressive with programming, the sounds to me are not what I expected it to be. It sounds synthy on the Highs on Violins, and I still find myself tweaking \\fast attacks, for more Expression.

Although GOS has been Highly acclaimed, (I think more on how its programmed, and Maestro Tools), the sound is definately thin IMHO. I heard the Et mockups with Damon, SImon, and they used GOS and KH together, and I then was sold on getting GOS and KH. These two make a great combo. But to my dissapointment one spends too much time to tweak GOS and KH to get fast attacks, and strings to sound realistic. There are samples on GOS that sound very realistic, like the Grand Detaches I love em! So why not have the rest sound more realistic in bowing?

To me I am satisfied with these two libraries, and will take me forever to figure out GOS with KH. But I still do not feel excited, and that this is what I really wanted so....

To Nick Phoenix

If you can make a string library that not only gives you the quality sound that you produce, but that gives you realistic bowings of the Strings, then you will have provided us with a winner in Sound, and Programming. I find no matter how good your sound is, if its not programmed correctly, your strings sound like a keyboard is playing it. Many musicians and composers, know how the violin should sound like, but the problem comes in with spending hours and many takes to try and use Expression CC11 etc. and to sound more like the real thing.Then one sits with one hand on the slider, and one on the keyboard, and redoing the slide you missed on. Well if the programming can take care of more expression. I think you will have the best out there!

The winner Stringlibrary is thus:
SOund Quality=Realism(Programming Bowing Techniques)

My 2 cents. I personally think everyone has praised the Garritan Library too much, and I appreciate someone coming forward and giving their experiences. Guys because of this thread, the next libraries will only be better, thus improving the quality of samples

Thanks for your input Nick!!

Raven

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PatS

01-28-2002, 11:51 PM

Nick:

I appreciate your honesty and agree with King(not an)Idiot that you have every right to express your opinions here along with us non-developers. My hope is that you shared your thoughts with Gary first. I sense that as a dissatisfied customer (not as a developer) you wish to give would-be customers an honest heads up, particularly in light of what you call the \"hype machine.\" That seems fair enough, though I certainly wouldn\'t follow your footsteps.

No doubt, I\'m a different type of customer. As you may know, I was a beta tester, which means that I didn\'t pay full price for the library, though I\'m certain I worked my tail off in helping Gary and Tom prepare the library for market. During my time as a beta tester, I developed a strong sense of loyalty to Gary, Tom, and their baby--GOS. So, yes, I am biased and probably would not be the first person to talk to about the library. I love it, warts and all. It may not offer everything that a composer would want in a string library, but one could say the same about real string orchestras, including your comment about the \"big flowing strings\" (you would think that that\'s a meat-and-potatoes sound, but it\'s not).

As a loyal customer and friend, I do not intend to share publicly my specific misgivings about GOS. First, they pale in significance when compared to all that is wonderful in the library. Second, I wouldn\'t want any of my \"negative\" comments (however constructive) to impinge upon future sales of GOS and thus upon Gary\'s and Tom\'s livelihood. Third, and most important, Gary and Tom have proven themselves to be among the most responsive and caring developers in this market; therefore, I know from experience that they will make every effort to produce something wonderful in response to whatever complaints I might share with them (they did it countless times during the beta process). Of course, if they just blew me off, I would feel no compunction about sharing negative comments here. Fortunately for all of us, that\'s not their style. So, I will continue to send my complaints (and praise) directly and privately to Gary and Tom. That\'s my style.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 01-28-2002).]

Simon Ravn

01-28-2002, 11:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Raven:
[I believe when Garritan\'s Brass and Winds are released that we will finally see the beginnings of the True Virtual Symphony Orchestra. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree.

DD and Quantum has already been proved!

[This message has been edited by Raven (edited 01-28-2002).][/B][/QUOTE]

Funny. I feel the opposite way. I am getting there with strings, but woodwinds - and ESPECIALLY brass is DEFINITELY not there. Problem with all brass libraries is that they\'re recorded too dry. NONE of the libraries out there will give you \'the Hollywood sound\'. And Dan Dean has only done solo instruments - how can you compare this to ensembles in ANY way? There are rumours about a new brass library from DD but let\'s see if he recorded it as dry as his solo libraries (winds/brass) - if so, they are pretty useless to me.

Raven

01-28-2002, 11:59 PM

To me wetness is easy to simulate with good reverbs, but expression not, so I can take QLB and add some reverb, the expression is there however.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Funny. I feel the opposite way. I am getting there with strings, but woodwinds - and ESPECIALLY brass is DEFINITELY not there. Problem with all brass libraries is that they\'re recorded too dry. NONE of the libraries out there will give you \'the Hollywood sound\'. And Dan Dean has only done solo instruments - how can you compare this to ensembles in ANY way? There are rumours about a new brass library from DD but let\'s see if he recorded it as dry as his solo libraries (winds/brass) - if so, they are pretty useless to me.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nick Phoenix

01-29-2002, 12:06 AM

This topic wasn\'t supposed to be about me and it isn\'t an attack on Gary ( a very nice guy). This wasn\'t something I could discuss with Gary, because it isn\'t repairable. The library is already the best programmed, most well thought out library around. Also, this is only my opinion. I held it in for months as I tried using the library and in sympathy for Gary. But, the forum was getting boring, so I figured why not? I truly don\'t think I will hurt GOS sales any.

Anyway, I think what is unfair is to subject Garys library to critisism, when I don\'t do the same to my own libraries. Francis B. - You have a point! VoTA was rushed out and has pathetic programming compared to GOS. I am fixing that somewhat. I have also rerecorded the consonants. They are much better. That being said, VotA is not the best library for mellow stuff, even after the update. It also suffers from the, some notes sound better than others, syndrome. Its not noticeable in a track, but soloed? A little at times. You seem to want beautiful mellow choir. The new Mirislav choir is probably better for that. That being said, I still love VotA.

KingIdiot

01-29-2002, 12:35 AM

Actually, you never know what could be \"fixed\". Remember, Gary is doing this whole thing on his own, there isn\'t a publisher hindering the type of updates that GOS. There were multiple mics used in the recording session..... So there are options galore http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif not that anyone really wants to do that amount of editing...except maybe me....
,and doing hard updates on CDs gets expensive... but you never know what kind of options there are, or can be produced. Even if it means re recording some strings. You know its possible to go back and fix things with re recording http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Not to mention some of the \"lush string\" updates Gary has been toying with. I\'m gonna egg him to throw out some of the optional ideas for updates and his future plans. I hate putting words in his mouth.

You cant say something is undoable until you talk to the guy about it you know http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif He breaks all kinds of rules.

About VotA I still think its a very usable library. Even for mellow stuff. Just some programming needs to be done to the instruments!!!

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

RobertKooijman

01-29-2002, 01:46 AM

Just a small tip to get a bit closer to the single \'holy grail\' strings patch that Nick and (without daring to say so) others are looking for:

The attack portion is often a too slow and inconsistent in many (sustained) string patches from various libraries. It becomes a problem whenever notes are repeated and particulary when used for faster passages.

Of course, one can resort to using dozen\'s of different samples, each one addressing a single note. This can result in a quite realistic sound, however it\'s not a very efficient way of composing.

When using samplers, you can only further slow down the attack / fade-in portion, e.g. by modulating the AMP envelope attack or alternatively opening up a low pass filter.

Many sustained patches are problematic to use because of this relatively slow \'fade-in\'. Even though it might appear natural, it get\'s actually very un-natural when the same samples are played repeatedly, each time having the same \'hardcoded\' attack.

This can often be improved a lot by indidualy sending the samples off-line trough a decent compressor with attack and decay set to some 100 mS resp. 2 S. The compression should be relatively harmless while sufficiently lifting the sample start portion . Once done, it\'s these compressed samples that should be refered to by the patch being played.

The end result is that the sample \'kicks in\' right at the start, and now the modwheel or other controller can be used to vary and \'tame\' the attack in real time while playing as desired. I found that this:

- greatly reduces the need to mess with more complicated, layered patches or revert to other tricks
- adds perceived reality because of greater variety in \'articulation\'
- speeds up the composing process

Regarding the expression of opinions that kicked off this thread: please keep them coming!

There has quite a bit of hype and praise going on here towards certain libraries. IMO it\'s alwas good to see some constructive critisism, regardless if addressed by a developer, credible expert, beta tester or \'normal\' customer that has actually payed for it.

Cheers, Robert

RobertKooijman

01-29-2002, 02:56 AM

Beckers

01-29-2002, 03:00 AM

Another fascinating thread. Watching pros debate like this is a unique source of insight for amateurs like me. Please keep the personal opinions coming and don\'t bar any holds.

It\'s, surely, taken for granted (?) that no string library can possibly sound and play like a real string orchestra. We\'re all editing and layering to get closer to our personal perception of reality.

I use at least six string libraries in each recording (the only one I don\'t have is Denny Jaeger). I produce \"tools\" for music education and anything that sounds synthetic is uninspirational and rejected. I have therefore, until recently, had to mask strings with wind instruments.

GOS has suddenly given me many more options, and am only needing to double in a piano to mask the attacks. (Roberts\' tip may even allow me to dispense with that).

For me new string libraries are stepping stones towards virtual reality; some are small steps, some (like GOS) are large. It is pointless to criticise any of them for not sounding real.

Bx

Damon

01-29-2002, 03:01 AM

I have a hard time connecting strings smoothly if the attacks are to abrupt right off the bat. Even with tons of tweaking I still can\'t get it to connect smooth enough. We all have different tastes though and whatever works best for someone else is fine with me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif.
What about for slow string legato lines possibly \"v-shaped\" masking control samples? Maybe take the masking control samples and create a v-shaped envelope? This way the samples would connect but slowly decay (not all the way to nothing, just a little dip) and rise again from note to note. Only for slow legato lines like \"Adagio for Strings\" for example.
Do I sound crazy? Could it work?

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-29-2002).]

Beckers

01-29-2002, 03:05 AM

KingIdiot

01-29-2002, 03:18 AM

regarding legato.

I\'ve got a few ideas that I\'m trying to get time to tweak on. Spawned by some of my own quams about GOS slides and a recent post by Thomas J. is idea is something I\'d thought about for a while and has piqued my interest againg. SO possibly another update soon. Not to mention some other very cool ideas.

In fact I\'ve got so many Update ideas that I would love to see happen with GOS its just taht I dont have the time, and they aren\'t \"fool proof\" yet.

Anyhow. The thing about \"expression\" and \"realism\" is that different things are the \"give aways\" to people.

What I mean is that one person might be more interested in teh vibrato, another the attacks, another the legato. Each of these is usually different to each piece of music.

Which is why I\'d like to see people discuss what they are missing from libraries they have and have all of us work together as a team to make it better. Instead of playing the old freakn waiting game for a new library. And spending MORE money AGAIN.

and when I say discuss what they are missing I mean lets try to talk in detail about the things we are missing.....not just use words like \"expressive\" or \"big\"...etc....

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

Aaron Symonds

01-29-2002, 05:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
VoTA was rushed out and has pathetic programming compared to GOS. I am fixing that somewhat. I have also rerecorded the consonants. They are much better. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Will that be a free update?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
That being said, VotA is not the best library for mellow stuff, even after the update. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I\'m actually getting some quite good mellow stuff out of it, although there is a good reason it\'s called Voices of the Apocalypse!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
It also suffers from the, some notes sound better than others, syndrome. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only occasionally that I\'ve noticed.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Its not noticeable in a track, but soloed? A little at times. You seem to want beautiful mellow choir. The new Miroslav choir is probably better for that. That being said, I still love VotA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear hear! So far I\'ve used it for doing cues in the styles of Danny Elfman, Dual of Fates and religous epiphany. Next up? The Omen!

[This message has been edited by Aaron Symonds (edited 01-29-2002).]

Damon

01-29-2002, 07:35 AM

Aaron, I wanna hear that \"Duel of the Fates\" demo! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Tom Hopkins

01-29-2002, 01:34 PM

Franz,

Ok, I wanted to stay out of this, but your post seems so mean-spirited (as opposed to Nick, who just expressed an opinion) that I’ll temporarily jump in.

\"But I do have 22 years of audio engineering experience so even in the loudest room I can analyze what comes out of speakers. (on any drug)\"

Hmmm. Even though I was not involved in the recording stage of GOS (I was hired later to do the programming), I’ve got well over 30 years of audio engineering experience and I will freely admit that I can’t. Even over closed phones, the high noise levels at NAMM made the listening experience difficult. I certainly wouldn’t want to evaluate your libraries under those conditions (and I didn’t).

\"Note off: Every (stringed) musical instrument generates sounds after the note is released. Instrument resonance and room response and especially in string sections there are human noises that make it \'real\'. GigaStudio handles note offs very well.\"

Granted it can be one of many things that make samples sound \"real\". That’s why release triggers (I’m assuming that’s what you mean by “note-offs”) are being considered for future updates. The practical down-side is a further drain on polyphony which is already being pushed hard by some of the more complex instruments in GOS.

\"Dynamics: All the GOS demos I have listened to seemed to be compressed or so. An orchestra has a dynamic range of about 120dB.\"

Yes, an \"orchestra\" has a dynamic range of about 120db, \"strings\" do not. The dynamic range of the strings in GOS was calibrated to the actual range displayed by the players at the original sessions (using recorded crescendos and diminuendos). We tried to make it as accurate as possible within the limitations of the dynamic curves available in GigaStudio. Of course, if a user feels constrained by this, it is a relatively easy modification in the editor to expand the dynamic range to whatever is desired. Anticipating this, there is even a section in the manual which describes the step-by-step process for making this modification. We encourage users to customize the library to their needs. Don’t forget the additional use of cc#11 for dynamic range “trimming.”

\"Stereo image: In my humble opinion, it is the engineers job to create an image with mike placement that is pleasant to the listener. The setup of an orchestra has developed over ~ 250 years. Maybe there is something to that.\"

Yes, but which one? The standard one with (left to right from the audience perspective) 1st violins, 2nd violins, violas, cellos and basses behind right? Or the one with 1st violins left, 2nd violins right, favored by certain orchestras (and composers)? I have recordings that place the basses in various places: Right rear, center rear, or left rear. The decision was made with GOS to put the choice of placement in the hands of the user. You obviously feel that the engineer should be making that decision for the user. Well and good – a difference in philosophy - which should give potential customers one more thing to help them make a choice.

\"GOS was sampled from the harpists perspective.\"

That’s a new low in “constructive” criticism. Not only is that comment blatantly insulting to Gary (a harpist), but literally untrue as well. Congratulations!

\"No Reverb: If the samples are really good they don\'t need any. If you want to know what you really get listen without any effects.\"

All applications of the library are not created equal. Do you really feel that one size fits all when it comes to recorded acoustic properties? Certainly if the feedback we’ve received on this subject from our customers is any indication many would disagree with you. Some people need to simulate a relatively dry and intimate environment and others want the big Boston Symphony Hall, long-reverb-tail sound. Often, needs vary from project to project with the same user. We made the decision, once again, to put the choice in the hands of the user by favoring the dry (actually intermediate) portion of the spectrum and with the advent of approaches like Altiverb (and other simulators that use impulses) the future looks bright for this decision (see Dave Govett\'s post above). Remember, room properties can be added but not so easily removed. There was considerable discussion on this subject during the beta process and, with the help of our beta testers, we made a decision to go with (what we felt was) the most flexible solution. You obviously differ with that decision and, once again, that will give potential customers another point to ponder, which is a good thing for consumers.

\"If any of this seems totally crazy to you, please never purchase vrsound samples!\"

Naw, . . . that’s too easy a straight line.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Hopkins (edited 01-29-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Tom Hopkins (edited 01-29-2002).]

Simon Ravn

01-29-2002, 01:55 PM

Franz, your comments are so naive and stupid that I would mostly just like to disregard all you say as \'booze-talk\' (in lack of a proper english word). I can\'t believe you\'re a pro engineer or anything, making those dumb statements. Either you feel very stupid now or I pity you.

Francis Belardino

01-29-2002, 02:07 PM

Tom,
Once again, you have made us proud to be a GOS user. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Bravo!

[This message has been edited by Francis Belardino (edited 01-29-2002).]

franz

01-29-2002, 02:35 PM

Tom,
Thanks for agreeing on so many of my points.

I am a mean old m-fer seasoned engineer who survived Rock\'n\'Roll, coke, heroin, extasy, Marlboros, pot and 72 hour sessions. Sorry, if that came across mean spirited. i do expect a lot from my contemporary fellow engineers.
Hearing in loud rooms:
Years of on the air live engineering for TV shows with 4 - 8 live bands in 2 hours.
Stereo Solutions:
Sample all possible setups. Left, right... in all possible styles.
Or flip left and right channels!
Panning versus miking:
Completely different animal. A pan pot will never be able to create the same effect. What do you mean? GS Midi panning makes mono out of stereo. So why even use a stereo sampler?

Dry strings: do not exist.
Can easily be created by an oscillator bank. Real hall or room sound can not (and it\'s a long time off). you listened to all the wrong beta testers. there is absolutely nothing better than a real hall. listen to any string recordings. A purist classical engineer wouldn\'t be caught dead with a digital reverb.

Harpist position: didn\'t know, sorry gary. but everything sounds like it\'s straight in front of me. the harp would hear it like that. And why would that be a low blow? I love harps. (i dated a harpist)

So, I have a different opinion, big deal.

Tom, 30 years of engineering and no mention of you at allmusic.com?
Simon,
Yes, i am very dumb and proud of it.

[This message has been edited by franz (edited 01-29-2002).]

ChrisAxia

01-29-2002, 03:05 PM

Hey Franz,

You say no classical engineer would use a digital reverb. Well, not everyone wants that \'classical\' sound. I\'ve had the privelage to be involved in 2 Hollywood film scores with orchestra, and both were done in a fairly dry studio, with loads of Lexicon 480 added afterwards. They both sound damn good to my ears. Many scores are done this way and this is the sound that many users on this forum appear to be after.

There are also many times where I want strings to be quite dry. What would I do then if I had a string library recorded in a massive hall? Just remember, not everyone wants what you want.

Chris

franz

01-29-2002, 03:21 PM

Hey Chris, exactly.

I am only one opinion and of course you are right.

Hollywood has absolutely nothing to do with string sound tough.
Many Hollywood score productions are recorded in London, Prag, Vienna, Budapest or other good sounding halls and studios, rarely on a Hollywood sound stage. It\'s too expensive and many producers and directors like that real reverb designed by some free mason 150 or more years ago. And frankly many producers don\'t like Hollywood union engineers.

A_Sapp

01-29-2002, 03:22 PM

Okay, this is creating a slight frustration. There is a difference between beneficial commenting, and destructive commenting. If you\'re gonna post something that would reveal some flaws that could be fixed, do it in a tone that wouldn\'t be offensive. And what\'s wrong with a 2nd mortgage for sample libraries, what is that insinuating? Hmm? Hmm?

Raven

01-29-2002, 04:19 PM

During Studio location recordings John Williams still uses the Lexicon 480. Start Wars was made in this fashion with 2 Lexicon 480\'s with larc.
I appreciate everyones honesty and good luck or bad luck on using GOS. In my situation I just do not like the sound that Gary put in this Library. In my opinion listening to some strings of AO 97, sounds just as good to me, and US and SS sound better in the Viola range. Thus I use some of AO and GOS and US and KH now. I just kinda built up my expectations too much for this library hoping it would supply me with the quality in all areas sound and programming. I think the 1st Violins sound thin in all categories, and Ultimate Strings Violas etc sound better.

To Simon, Nick, King(Idiot) thanks for being patient with me and enduring my nagg nag nag. I must say however that this thread is the best I have read in a long time.

Damon

01-29-2002, 04:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Raven:
I think the 1st Violins sound thin in all categories, and Ultimate Strings Violas etc sound better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Raven,
Have you heard the beautiful grand detache violin and violas yet? There will be an update with these looped soon.

KingIdiot

01-29-2002, 06:56 PM

All,

I\'ll be soon posting Impulse responses of various EQ tricks and reverbs I\'ve been doing. Also I\'ll have some \"tricks with GOS\" that I\'ve been fooling with and even just \"thought of\".

I think the difference between me and some other people is I see a wealth of \"starting poitns\" with GOS, while other people want \"out of the box\".

I\'ll be doing this with all the libraries I have and ave been fooling with.

Also, I AM AN IDIOT, I dont claim to know all about the sounds and what is right. I may be totally wrong with the \"sound\" and would like help and direction in getting a better sound. So dont expect miracles form me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

However, I think if we all work together with sounds and trying various tricks and trading tips we might be able to help each other out very much.

I\'m a bit friggin tired of believing in a product and people thinking I\'m just being a Kiss *** . Even if I\'m not being directly called one.

I believe in GOS and VotA as well as other libraries because I think they offer up alot of potential, but require some f-in work. Its not the developer\'s position to do *ALL* of the work for us. In fact some of them have no idea how all of us work since we all do it differently. However them giving us options is a BIG point in the right direction.

It seems that if I post something nice about a library or a demo that even catches peoples atttention in good way, they forget about it, and focus on the fact that I tout a libraries potentials and consider that \"hype\". Forgive me for being excited about the potentials and some of the results I\'m getting..... and sharing.

The reason there is so much about GOS coming out of my mouth is that there is a sheer amount of raw data that I can start with that allows me to do many things. This is what I like about DD Brass. I\'ve been able to do soem cool things with it as well. I\'ve posted a few things about that sucker as well. VotA. There are some things I really dig, and will be digging more and more into it.

eh maybe I\'m defending myself for no reason, but I tend to take things said about \"hype\" for GOS/libraries or \"kiss asses\" to include me when you describe them as people who appreciate developer\'s work and post what they like about libraries.

with all that colon filler said.....

DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Really...I am an Idiot

Damon

01-29-2002, 07:08 PM

King,
I don\'t think you\'re an idiot. In fact I think we should call you KingTweakhead http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif!

KingIdiot

01-29-2002, 07:23 PM

hmmm on second thought...

I\'m way too involved with this forum. Its taking too much of a \"real world\" point in my life.

If I get irritated at insinuations and innuendo and stuff...

man I am an idiot http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

ignore all I said in the last post.

I think I post here too much because I feel its my only real link to voicing my opinion to developers and knowing I\'m being heard by atleast SOMEONE even tho it might not be the developer. And that I feel like I might be a part of the development process by sharing my feelings.

Not to mention it gives me some peole to talk to throughout the day since I work at home. My dog is great company but I like shooting the it. Damn socialyte that I am.

So anyhow. .... whatever. ...

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Really...I am an Idiot

Lance_M

01-29-2002, 07:38 PM

King, all I\'ve got to say is that many, many, many people here owe you a LOT. Hell, you got me interested GigaStudio in the first place (and now that I\'m finally getting the time to mess around with it, I\'m having a blast).

Forums like these, with people like you, are what make GigaStudio what it is. Only thing that would be better is if we could all sit locked in a studio for a few days tossing around ideas. With the lenghty breaks between my classes, I\'m glad a forum like this exists... \'cause I don\'t have a dog to talk to. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

On a side note, I HATE HATE HATE how I always forget the reason I want to reply to a topic as soon as I hit that dang \"Post Reply\" button and end up rambling about nothing, instead. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Lance_M (edited 01-29-2002).]

Francis Belardino

01-29-2002, 08:57 PM

\"Forums like these, with people like you, are what make GigaStudio what it is. Only thing that would be better is if we could all sit locked in a studio for a few days tossing around ideas\"

You know, I am locked in a control room 40 hours a week and still I love the ideal http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I have one better though...

We all meet in the lounge of some Hilton and King can buy the first round http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

All in favor?

A_Sapp

01-29-2002, 09:13 PM

Amen.

KingIdiot

01-29-2002, 09:54 PM

mmmmm beeer......

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Really...I am an Idiot

Damon

01-29-2002, 10:17 PM

D\'OH!!!

Mel Tron

01-29-2002, 10:31 PM

hmmmm..tastes great thank u King!

re: Strings: You are all forgetting about the ultimate String Library Ever: The MELLOTRON!

No Loops, no mod wheel control, no filters, yet you can adjust the amount of vibrato by how hard you hold the key down Polyphonic aftertouch! whata concept! of course you have to wait for the tape to rewind or spring back before you play the same note.If it plays at all.

Can you say: Moody Blues? Nights in White Satin? \'bet most of you have no clue what I\'m talking about.

My most memorable Sampling Concert Experience:
King Crimson with dual Mellotrons, ELectric Viola, Bass and guitar with E-Bow by Robert Fripp!

Just a reminder of where we\'ve been and what Great Artists have done with very little. It is all about MUSIC!

We are all spoiled rotten.

......really I am a Mellotron!

RobertKooijman

01-29-2002, 10:55 PM

Regarding the ongoing debate of how dry or whet samples should be, and the close vs. distant miking issue:

IMO, there is something to say for recording samples \"dry\", as you don\'t get stuck with a given room or hall.

However, the critical issue is not to confuse \"dry\" with \"close miking\".

While \"close miking\" typically results in \"dry\", the opposite doesn\'t have to be true.
Decent miking that captures the whole instrument\'s body can be perceived as \"dry\", even though it does not have the shortcomings of (too) close miking where only a part of the instrument\'s output spectrum is highlighted.

If e.g. strings are close miked, there\'s a good chance you will NEVER be able to re-create a real world performance in a good accoustic setting. No matter how much you drown them in reverb, it often just doesn\'t melt into one coherent soundscape.

If on the other hand the same strings are properly and not too close miked in a relatively dry / dead environment where early reflections are not allowed to pollute too much, there\'s a good chance you CAN realisticly re-reate that feel of any good accoustic setting, just by applying the reverb you like.

While in both cases the raw sample is perceived as \"dry\", there\'s a significant difference in usability.

I don\'t own Gary\'s strings, so I can\'t comment on these specifically.

Cheers, Robert

franz

01-29-2002, 11:15 PM

Yes, I was stoned. This made the GOS listening experience even worse. But I do have 22 years of audio engineering experience so even in the loudest room I can analyze what comes out of speakers. (on any drug)

I can not believe that you guys are into panning your strings this is so 80\'s (the e2 would be ok for this). I am just too old. I am looking for innovation, it is the 21st century after all. As good as GOS programming may be. The engineering is questionable.

Sorry, but that\'s how it is.
franZ

Forgot to answer:
Note off: Every (stringed) musical instrument generates sounds after the note is released. Instrument resonance and room response and especially in string sections there are human noises that make it \"real\". GigaStudio handles note offs very well.

Dynamics: All the GOS demos I have listened to seemed to be compressed or so. An orchestra has a dynamic range of about 120dB.

Stereo image: In my humble opinion, it is the engineers job to create an image with mike placement that is pleasant to the listener. The setup of an orchestra has developed over ~ 250 years. Maybe there is something to that. GOS was sampled from the harpists perspective.

No Reverb: If the samples are really good they don\'t need any. If you want to know what you really get listen without any effects. (Don\'t try with Roland keyboards!!) In the mixing process reverb is added after eq-ing and other engineering efforts to make things sound right. If you eq into your effects you\'ll never know how your original recording actually sounds and your mix will most likely have problems.

If any of this seems totally crazy to you, please never purchase vrsound samples! They do not need reverb and there wasn\'t any on my demos at Namm.

[This message has been edited by franz (edited 01-29-2002).]

ryounger

01-29-2002, 11:26 PM

Gotta hand it to ya\' nick, you know how to make the marathon 200+ post messages!!! :-)

I have to agree with Z6 on this one, In fact I couldn\'t have said it any better. To summerize:

\"Man, you get sick to death of always having to compliment everything in multiple sets of parentheses before you\'re \'allowed\' to say anything that might be interpreted as \'negative\' by the \'gatekeepers\'.\"

Here, Here!! I must agree that in the two years+ that I have been lurking around on this forum, the developer lovefest gets really old. It sometimes sounds something a little like this...

\"Thank you (kiss kiss) for the wonderful library (kiss kiss) that is sooooooo perfect (kiss kiss) in every way. It was worth getting a 2nd mortgage on my house to buy it (kiss kiss) I am more than happy to buy it sight unseen with not so much as a hint as to how it will work for me. (kiss kiss, lips now getting chapped) The only thing that I could ask for is some copy protection that will lock me out of my sampler durring a gig because i forgot to bring the original x number of cd\'s. (kiss kiss).

LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Francis Belardino

01-29-2002, 11:27 PM

Hahahahahahahahahaaaaa Great post! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Francis Belardino

01-30-2002, 07:48 AM

I love Ultimate Strings. The are very well recorded. Very clean, some bow noise.
They work well in slow movements.

...don\'t forget the price.

I own GOS now but I still call up US now and again.

Haydn

01-30-2002, 03:33 PM

Hey Mel Tron,

I always wondered if you got your name from Mellotron. I\'ve loved the sound of this instrument for years. There\'s something about the gritty sound of the strings. Was into all the prog bands of the 70\'s that used it.

Have you listened to any of the newer bands that are using the Mellotron? My favorite is The Flower Kings. Tomas Bodin is a great keyboardist, not just chops and is great a creating soundscapes. He uses the mellotron and gets some great sounds out of the Nord Lead synths.

Mel Tron

01-30-2002, 04:38 PM

Thanx Haydn : I will check out the Flower Kings. These days I like to listen to Mahler, Tchaikovsky and Brahms Symphonies.

gabriels

01-30-2002, 07:05 PM

I listened as intently as I could to all the demos and samples of GOS, Vitous, Siedlaczek (Seidlekzac,Sielakzec, Sei.....), etc. I almost sent the money for GOS.
I was almost convinced. At the last minute I wasn\'t so convinced. Finally I chanced upon the KH demos at the K.H. website (the one called \"virthisk.mp3\"). For me, at least, it really seemed to be the sound I was looking for. I have much respect for all the composers on this forum who have made their music available to us. But the sample quality of those pieces, and GOS mp3\'s available on the GOS website didn\'t quite fulfill my need for a luscious sound as did the KH.
I must admit that when I go to the symphony, I\'m sometimes disappointed with the sound (I go to the S.F. symphony in Davis Hall). I grew up on classical music, was bowled over by Hendrix, Coltrane, King Crimson, etc etc etc).
Never lost my taste for the Romantic composers or for that matter for Modernists like Penderecki). But often the real symphony sounds thin. After a while, I adjust and appreciate the airiness and clarity. But I miss the gigantic sounds that other genres of music have offered.
The KH sounded bigger, fuller... I bought it. I like it. Ultimately, people who buy things, tend to support their purchase by increased feeling that they have made the right choice. I remember reading a study about that in a psychology class way back when. No doubt there is some of that going on for all of us. Maybe my next 1K will go for the GOS library, then the Vitous, and then I\'ll be even happier. For now, I\'m ok with the sound I got.
Gabriel

Raven

01-30-2002, 10:47 PM

Thanks for Sharing That Gabriel

I have both side by side, and must agree (after all my nag nag nag) that GOS is not bad at all. However I still like the Kirk Hunter sound better, but it lacks the GOS controlling. This Maestro Tools is very intuitive in GOS.

So far I am more impressed with GOS capabilities than the actual sound, but I hear the updates will be great!

Tell me, anyone else using Ultimate Strings?? What do you find you use the most on this Library, and in what areas does it work for you?

I find that US is very impressive sounding to my ears, very good expression.

Raven

Garritan

01-30-2002, 11:28 PM

A separate thread in this forum has been posted addressing GOS and the Wet/Dry Debate.
Gary

PatS

01-30-2002, 11:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gabriels:
I must admit that when I go to the symphony, I\'m sometimes disappointed with the sound (I go to the S.F.symphony in Davis Hall).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you referring to the sound of the SFS strings (18 1st violins, 16 2nd violins, 13 violas, 11 cellos, and 9 basses)? I know a software engineer here in Santa Barbara who drives to Davies Hall two or three times a year whenever the SFS performs Mahler. And he is never disappointed. In fact, I find it hard to believe that the SFS strings would disappoint anyone, unless the music sucked or the players had an off night. (Did you know that the Concertmaster was recently the Leader of the LSO? OK, I digress, unless you sense my feeble attempt to connect the SFS sound with those luscious soundtracks performed by the LSO.) Regardless, this just goes to show you how subjective our perceptions really are, to say nothing of how they change over time.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 01-31-2002).]

PeterRoos

01-31-2002, 03:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gabriels:
Ultimately, people who buy things, tend to support their purchase by increased feeling that they have made the right choice. I remember reading a study about that in a psychology class way back when. No doubt there is some of that going on for all of us.
Gabriel <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, that\'s the Cognitive Dissonance theory from Leon Festinger.

KingIdiot

01-31-2002, 03:44 AM

BAH. BS!! I like GOS because of the amount of options!! After using it I find that I can get the sound I want out of it, and THINK I can get more.

I tend to forget that everyone has their own sense of \"what soudns good\'. To me KH sounds fine, but the options/articulations aren\'t there.

I honestly believe that I can get what I\'m looking for with GOS and a good solo string library. I\'m looking at VRSounds as an option, and DD. Until GSS comes out.

Options and support are what I like. Of course the options thing can be taken care of in the form of buying all libraries as well http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

go With what you guys like, thats all you can do. But remember, I\'ve always stated that I dont have KH, and that I\'m not sure what it can and cant do. Hoever all I\'ve ever said is that I think GOS can do what KH does. Maybe not out of the box, but with proper use, and possibly updates. I dont see this happening with KH http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif And to me its a big reason I support GOS...Its creators support me as a user and I like that. Maybe its not a big issue to evreyone else,..but to me it is.

I know I know.. sound is most important...well I\'m like what I can do with GOs, and wish I had some more vibrato....solo strings....

About SI strings. who knows. I\'m pretty sure it will sound fantastic. And is probably worth my time and money for the big soound. Then again what the hell am I saying I haven\'t even heard it yet.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

JoE

01-31-2002, 10:07 AM

I\'ve been keeping a somewhat low profile in this discussion, but (as one of Gary\'s beta testers) I\'d like to make one small remark about the post that got the whole thread started. Nick, if I understand correctly, your were one of the beta testers of GOS.
On July 25 \'01 you wrote

>The demos don\'t really do this wonderful library justice. I have the first beta of
> this library and have been making some really nice music with it.

Of course, healthy, constructive criticism should always be expressed and this forum is the perfect place for it. Plus, long and controversial debate during the development process is one of the things that made GOS the great product it today. You speak of \'the hype machine\'. Of course there has been enormous excitement since the day Gary announced his plans to develop \"Gigastrings\". But it\'s just hard for me to understand what changed your mind so radically since the time you beta-tested GOS.
I hope that competition in library development (in general) is not part of the reason because in that case the forum would be the wrong place for that. Franz, for example, has a competing library...
A perfect example of how constructively even library developers who are coming up with very similar types of libraries can discuss each other\'s products are the threads about Kip\'s Boesendorfer and Michiel\'s Steinway.
Bravo!

My 1.5 cents...

IGOR

01-31-2002, 02:57 PM

If you are really a classical enginer from Vienna, you should know that the pan settings have really nothing, but nothing at all, to do with a sample library. Also the sound of the Vienna Phil strings does not sound very nice in a dry room. I know, because I did rehearse with them in such a room. Sorry, but.....

IGOR

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by franz:
I have only heard GOS at NAMM briefly.
The Celli were on the left?
The Violins in the middle?
And without reverb the sound is ....???
Note offs?
Dynamics..?
Stereo image..?

As a classical engineer from Vienna I was surprised. But maybe the hype had set my expectations too high.
franZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by IGOR (edited 01-31-2002).]

Nick Phoenix

01-31-2002, 03:32 PM

I told Gary about some of my gripes, but it has taken me some time to come to the conclusions that started this forum. I guess I will never shake the competitive sound developer stigma. So why don\'t I play along? Big check came today, time to go record some strings!

A_Sapp

01-31-2002, 05:50 PM

Whoa...

KingIdiot

01-31-2002, 06:36 PM

Cool Nick, keep us informed if you can.

f\'n A!!

SIS, QLS, and GOS, and up next DDBE GOBW

Just think about it. Miroslav back in the day at 5G was the cream of the crop, now for 5G if you cant get the perfect sound from all these develoeprs there must be something seriously wrong with your ears. I\'m stoked to be making music in times like this!

To Freakin Bad I\'m doinga game all based on 450k MIDI files right now!!

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Really...I am an Idiot

KingIdiot

01-31-2002, 06:37 PM

100!!!!!!!

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Really...I am an Idiot

Damon

01-31-2002, 08:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
SIS, QLS, and GOS, and up next DDBE GOBW<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'ll never be able to buy a house now dammit http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif!

KingIdiot

01-31-2002, 08:25 PM

yah, well try living in teh Bay Area and wanting a house.. I gave up on that until I can find a nice sugar mamma http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

or of course make like 200 grand a year ... yah uh huh... suuuuuure

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Really...I am an Idiot

Haydn

01-31-2002, 11:35 PM

Maybe Nick should of voiced these opinions during the beta test!! I don\'t remember him doing any posts in the beta forum. Just found out he was a beta tester a few days ago.

Haydn

01-31-2002, 11:38 PM

I think KH strings would be a great addition to use with GOS if they cost $500. I like alot of the sounds in KH but they are not chromatically sampled and have many stretched samples in the high notes. Also, they don\'t give you the articulations of GOS. You either go from a smooth slow attack to a heavy attack. Not much in between.

ryounger

01-31-2002, 11:44 PM

Hi guys.
I just wanted to apologize if I came off too harshly in my post, sometimes in the spirit of humor things can get a little carried away. King, I didn’t imply any specific user or library in my remarks, it just seems like every six months or so there is a 200 plus post thread between sample users and developers. Gary, I also hope that you didn’t take offence to what I wrote, I wasn’t talking about your library either.

King, I totally understand what you mean about this forum, I hardly ever post, yet I feel like I know a lot of people on this board.

Russ

KingIdiot

01-31-2002, 11:49 PM

I think its the fact that he\'s worked witht he librry for some time now. After around a yeat I find quirks as well, but also find thing I really like. Or new techniques and ideas for updates.

With any library one will always get \"tired\" of a sound or find the problematic aras and focus on them as limitations.

Again its a big reason I dig GOS for the updates. Both for \"fixes\" and new options. .... even if lately I\'m doing a few of the updates myself http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Thats another thing I like about GOs is the community, I feel people can go in a nd do this type of editing and possibly share it with others through Updates. Thats just too cool to me.

Anyhow, everyone\'s allowed to change their minds, or their \"ears\". . . It happens. who know the more I get to use DDSW the more I may like it. I know it happened with QLB. I liked it but not alot, then I liked it more, then I disliked it then I liked it http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

No one should hold an opinion as set in stone http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Times change and ears change and tstes change http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Yyounger,

Thats just because people love Drama.... and nick posts http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Its always that guys fault!! :P

I want post 100!!!

and also

DIE THREAD DIE!!
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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 01-31-2002).]