I Can't Keep Silent Any Longer!

[Nick Phoenix]

THIS IS A POLITICAL POST. If you think it doesn\'t belong here, you are right! Please ignore it, if you feel this way.

Questions:

Since when, is it acceptable for politicians in the US to lie repeatedly and habitually about everything that they are doing?

Why do we support politicians that are corrupt and lie about their motives and actions?

As American citizens, don’t we deserve to know what our countries basic world plan is?

Do you believe that the media is giving you a true picture of world events?

Are you aware that our current administration knew about the 9/11 attacks before they happened?

Are you prepared for a century of war to secure American domination and control of oil and drugs?

Did you know that the constitution states that, it is your DUTY, as an American citizen, to dissolve a corrupt US government?

Why do you continue to support the Republican or the Democratic party? (I am a former Democrat and found myself constantly defending Clinton, until I finally realized that he sold out to big business. I think he may have had good intentions at some point, but our present system does not allow for this.)

Our current administration is an illegitimate rogue government. Did you know that Florida is arguably the most corrupt state in the US and Jeb Bush and others stole the election? NEED PROOF?? Start reading! There are numerous books on the topic that provide detailed, documented proof. One cool one is “Jews for Buchanan.”

What happened to the Supreme Court? It is supposed to be an honorable impartial body. Do you think it is?

Maybe you’ve heard all this before, but it is time to do something about it. Why? Because terrible things are going to happen very soon. In fact, the worst has already happened. George W. and his clan allowed 5000 innocent Americans to be murdered, in order to gain support for the “NEW WAR.”

If you look at the facts (by this I mean reading books, newspapers and government documents), you can conclude one of 2 things.
1. Our government is GROSSLY incompetent, to the point that is inconceivable and failed to follow protocol and regulations on 9/11. OR
2. Our Government has a plan of world economic domination and nothing will get in it’s way.


How do you feel about Enron? How many other Enrons are there? Does it bother you that Kenneth Lay and George W. are best buddies and that Kenny boy was George W.’s #1 campaign contributor?

Did you know that Enron is the result of deregulation that started under Reagan? Did you know that Enron was operating under a special set of laws created for them and created by themselves?

Are you aware that most of the world is starting to really hate the US? Why? Not because of you, but because your government is doing things that you would never condone. They are doing them in your name and lying about them. Some of you have bumper stickers saying ”United We Stand.” Stand for what? Lies, Murder, War, Greed?

There is a video you can order at www.copvcia.com (\"http://www.copvcia.com\") called “The Truth and Lies about 9/11.” If you can’t afford it, email me and I might consider buying you a copy.

Below is a 9/11 timeline. Sorry it is so long. I will post a short concise summary of this and other 9/11 info soon.


1. 1991-1997 – Major U.S. oil companies including ExxonMobil, Texaco, Unocal, BP Amoco and Shell directly invest almost $3 billion in cash bribing heads of state in Kazakhstan to secure equity rights in the huge oil reserves in these regions. The oil companies further commit to future direct investments in Kazakhstan of $35 billion. Not being willing to pay exorbitant prices to Russia to use Russian pipelines the major oil companies have no way to recoup their investments. [Sources Testimony before the House International Relations Committee 2/12/98]

2. December 4, 1997 – Representatives of the Taliban are invited guests to the Texas headquarters of Unocal to negotiate their support for the pipeline. Subsequent reports will indicate that the negotiations failed, allegedly because the Taliban wanted too much money. [Source: The BBC, Dec. 4, 1997]

3. February 12, 1998 – Unocal Vice President John J. Maresca – later to become a Special Ambassador to Afghanistan – testifies before the House that until a single, unified, friendly government is in place in Afghanistan the trans-Afghani pipeline needed to monetize the oil will not be built. [Source: Testimony before the House International Relations Committee.]

4. 1998 - The CIA ignores warnings from Case Officer Robert Baer that Saudi Arabia was harboring an al-Q’aeda cell led by two known terrorists. A more detailed list of known terrorists is offered to Saudi intelligence in August 2001 and refused. [Source: Financial Times 1/12/01; See No Evil by a book by Robert Baer (release date Feb. 2002).

5. 1998 and 2000 - Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 2001. See also FTW, Vol. IV, No 7 – “The Best Enemies Money Can Buy,”
- http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members (\"http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members\")
/carlyle.html. ]

6. January, 2001 – The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence agencies to “back off” investigations involving the bin Laden family, including two of Osama bin Laden’s relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, VA – right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders dating back to 1996, frustrating efforts to investigate the bin Laden family. [Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast – Nov 7, 2001].

7. Feb 13, 2001 – UPI Terrorism Correspondent Richard Sale – while covering a trial of bin Laden’s Al Q’aeda followers - reports that the National Security Agency has broken bin Laden’s encrypted communications. Even if this indicates that bin Laden changed systems in February it does not mesh with the fact that the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.

8. May 2001 – Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since the destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime. [Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2001].

9. May, 2001 – Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, a career covert operative and former Navy Seal, travels to India on a publicized tour while CIA Director George Tenet makes a quiet visit to Pakistan to meet with Pakistani leader General Pervez Musharraf. Armitage has long and deep Pakistani intelligence connections and he is the recipient of the highest civil decoration awarded by Pakistan. It would be reasonable to assume that while in Islamabad, Tenet, in what was described as “an unusually long meeting,” also met with his Pakistani counterpart, Lt. General Mahmud Ahmad, head of the ISI. [Source The Indian SAPRA news agency, May 22, 2001.]

10. June 2001 – German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists are “planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.” [Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, September 14, 2001.]

11. July, 2001 – Three American officials: Tom Simmons (former U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former Assistant Secretary of State for South Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia), meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell them that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. A French book released in November, “Bin Laden - La Verite´ Interdite,” discloses that Taliban representatives often sat in on the meetings. British papers confirm that the Pakistani ISI relayed the threats to the Taliban. [Source: The Guardian, September 22, 2001; the BBC, September 18, 2001.The Inter Press Service, Nov 16, 2001]

12. Summer 2001 - According to a Sept. 26 story in Britain’s The Guardian, correspondent David Leigh reported that, “U.S. department of defense official, Dr. Jeffrey Starr, visited Tajikistan in January. The Guardian’s Felicity Lawrence established that US Rangers were also training special troops in Kyrgyzstan. There were unconfirmed reports that Tajik and Uzbek special troops were training in Alaska and Montana.”

13. Summer 2001 (est.) – Pakistani ISI Chief General Ahmad (see above) orders an aide to wire transfer $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, who was according to the FBI, the lead terrorist in the suicide hijackings. Ahmad recently resigned after the transfer was disclosed in India and confirmed by the FBI. [Source: The Times of India, October 11, 2001.]

14. Summer 2001 – An Iranian man phones U.S. law enforcement to warn of an imminent attack on the World Trade Center in the week of September 9th. German police confirm the calls but state that the U.S. Secret Service would not reveal any further information. [Source: German news agency “online.de”, September 14, 2001, translation retrieved from online.ie in Ireland.]

15. June 26, 2001 – The magazine indiareacts.com states that “India and Iran will ‘facilitate’ US and Russian plans for ‘limited military action’ against the Taliban.” The story indicates that the fighting will be done by US and Russian troops with the help of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. [Source: indiareacts.com, June 26, 2001.]

16. August 2001 – The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden in Boston. French intelligence sources confirm that the man is a key member of bin Laden’s network and the FBI learns that he has been taking flying lessons. At the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals. [Source: Reuters, September 13.]

17. August 11 or 12 – US Navy Lt. Delmart “Mike” Vreeland, jailed in Toronto on U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer in U.S. Naval intelligence, writes details of the pending WTC attacks and seals them in an envelope which he gives to Canadian authorities. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior Court Records]

18. Summer 2001 – Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorist pilots have been specifically training for suicide missions. This is reported in the Russian press and news stories are translated for FTW by a retired CIA officer.

19. July 4-14, 2001 – Osama bin Laden receives treatments for kidney disease at the American hospital in Dubai and meets with a CIA official who returns to CIA headquarters on July 15th. [Source: Le Figaro, October 31st, 2001.]

20. August 2001 – Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence to warn the U.S. government “in the strongest possible terms” of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings. [Source: MS-NBC interview with Putin, September 15.]

21. August/September, 2001 – The Dow Jones Industrial Average drops nearly 900 points in the three weeks prior to the attack. A major stock market crash is imminent.

22. Sept. 3-10, 2001 – MS-NBC reports on September 16 that a caller to a Cayman Islands radio talk show gave several warnings of an imminent attack on the U.S. by bin Laden in the week prior to 9/11.

23. September 1-10, 2001 – In an exercise, Operation “Swift Sword” planned for four years, 23, 000 British troops are steaming toward Oman. Although the 9/11 attacks caused a hiccup in the deployment the massive operation was implemented as planned. At the same time two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive on station in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast. Also at the same time, some 17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation “Bright Star.” All of these forces are in place before the first plane hits the World Trade Center. [Sources: The Guardian, CNN, FOX, The Observer, International Law Professor Francis Boyle, the University of Illinois.]

24. September 7, 2001 – Florida Governor Jeb Bush signs a two-year emergency executive order (01-261) making new provisions for the Florida National Guard to assist law enforcement and emergency-management personnel in the event of large civil disturbances, disaster or acts of terrorism. [Source: State of Florida web site listing of Governor’s Executive Orders.]

25. September 6-7, 2001 – 4,744 put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) are purchased on United Air Lines stock as opposed to only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the UAL puts are purchased through Deutschebank/AB Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current Executive Director of the CIA, A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard. [Source: The Herzliyya International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism, http://www.ict.org.il/, (\"http://www.ict.org.il/,\") September 21; The New York Times; The Wall Street Journal.]

26. September 10, 2001 - 4,516 put options are purchased on American Airlines as compared to 748 call options. [Source: ICT – above]

27. September 6-11, 2001 - No other airlines show any similar trading patterns to those experienced by UAL and American. The put option purchases on both airlines were 600% above normal. This at a time when Reuters (September 10) issues a business report stating, “Airline stocks may be poised to take off.”

28. September 6-10, 2001 – Highly abnormal levels of put options are purchased in Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re(insurance) which owns 25% of American Airlines, and Munich Re. All of these companies are directly impacted by the September 11 attacks. [Source: ICT, above; FTW, Vol. IV, No.7, October 18, 2001, http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/ (\"http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/\")
oct152001.html. ]

29. It has been documented that the CIA, the Israeli Mossad and many other intelligence agencies monitor stock trading in real time using highly advanced programs reported to be descended from Promis software. This is to alert national intelligence services of just such kinds of attacks. Promis was reported, as recently as June, 2001 to be in Osama bin Laden’s possession and, as a result of recent stories by FOX, both the FBI and the Justice Department have confirmed its use for U.S. intelligence gathering through at least this summer. This would confirm that CIA had additional advance warning of imminent attacks. [Sources: The Washington Times, June 15, 2001; FOX News, October 16, 2001; FTW, October 26, 2001, - http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/ (\"http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/\")
magic_carpet.html; FTW, Vol. IV, No.6, Sept. 18, 2001 - http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/ (\"http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/\")
sept1801.html; FTW, Vol. 3, No 7, 9/30/00 - www.copvcia.com/stories/ (\"http://www.copvcia.com/stories/\")
may_2001/052401_promis.html.

30. September 11, 2001 – Gen Mahmud of the ISI (see above), friend of Mohammed Atta, is visiting Washington on behalf of the Taliban. [Source: MS-NBC, Oct. 7.]

31. September 11, 2001 – Employees of Odigo, Inc. in Israel, one of the world’s largest instant messaging companies, with offices in New York, receive threat warnings of an imminent attack on the WTC less than two hours before the first plane hits the WTC. Law enforcement authorities have gone silent about any investigation of this. The Odigo Research and Development offices in Israel are located in the city of Herzliyya, a ritzy suburb of Tel Aviv which is the same location as the Institute for Counter Terrorism which breaks early details of insider trading on 9-11. [Source: CNN’s Daniel Sieberg, 9/28/01; Newsbytes, Brian McWilliams, 9/27/01; Ha’aretz, 9/26/01.].

32. September 11, 2001 - For 50 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with it widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the President of the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are scrambled to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National Command Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it was known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred – an event that has never happened in history. [Sources: CNN, ABC, MS-NBC, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times.]

33. September 13, 2001 – China is admitted to the World Trade Organization quickly, after 15 years of unsuccessful attempts. [Source: The New York Times, Sept. 30, 2001.]

34. September 14, 2001 – Canadian jailers open the sealed envelope from Mike Vreeland in Toronto and see that is describes attacks against the WTC and Pentagon. The U.S. Navy subsequently states that Vreeland was discharged as a seaman in 1986 for unsatisfactory performance and has never worked in intelligence. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior Court records]

35. September 15, 2001 – The New York Times reports that Mayo Shattuck III has resigned, effective immediately, as head of the Alex (A.B) Brown unit of Deutschebank.

36. September 29, 2001 – The San Francisco Chronicle reports that $2.5 million in put options on American Airlines and United Airlines are unclaimed. This is likely the result of the suspension in trading on the NYSE after the attacks which gave the Securities and Exchange Commission time to be waiting when the owners showed up to redeem their put options.

37. October 10, 2001 – The Pakistani newspaper The Frontier Post reports that U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain has paid a call on the Pakistani oil minister. A previously abandoned Unocal pipeline from Turkmenistan, across Afghanistan, to the Pakistani coast, for the purpose of selling oil and gas to China, is now back on the table “in view of recent geopolitical developments.”

38. Mid October, 2001 – The Dow Jones Industrial Average, after having suffered a precipitous drop has recovered most of its pre-attack losses. Although still weak, and vulnerable to negative earnings reports, a crash has been averted by a massive infusion of government spending on defense programs, subsidies for “affected” industries and planned tax cuts for corporations.

39. November 21, 2001 – The British paper The Independent runs a story headlined, “Opium Farmers Rejoice at the Defeat of the Taliban.” The story reports that massive opium planting is underway all over the country.

40. November 25, 2001 – The Observer runs a story headlined “Victorious Warlords Set To Open the Opium Floodgates.” It states that farmers are being encouraged by warlords allied with the victorious Americans are “being encouraged to plant “as much opium as possible.”

41. December 4, 2001 – Convicted drug lord and opium kingpin Ayub Afridi is recruited by the US government to help establish control in Afghanistan by unifying various Pashtun warlords. The former opium smuggler who was one of the CIA’s leading assets in the war against the Russians is released from prison in order to do this. [Source: The Asia Times Online, 12/4/01].

42. December 25, 2001 – Newly appointed afghani Prime Minister Hamid Karzai is revealed as being a former paid consultant for Unocal. [Source: Le Monde.]

43. January 3, 2002 – President Bush appoints Zalamy Khalilzad as a special envoy to Afghanistan. Khalilzad, a former employee of Unocal, also wrote op-eds in the Washington Post in 1997 supporting the Taliban regime. [Source: Pravda, 1/9/02]

44. January 4, 2002 – Florida drug trafficking explodes after 9-11. In a surge of trafficking reminiscent of the 1980s the diversion of resources away from drug enforcement has opened the floodgates for a new surge of cocaine and heroin from South America. [The Christian Science Monitor, January 4, 2002.

45. January 10, 2002 – In a call from a speaker phone in open court, attorneys for “Mike” Vreeland call the Pentagon’s switchboard operator who confirms that Vreeland is indeed a Naval Lieutenant on active duty. She provides an office number and a direct dial phone extension to his office in the Pentagon. [Source: Attorney Rocco Galati; court records Toronto Superior Court.]

46. February 9, 2002 – Pakistani leader General Musharraf and Afghan leader Hamid Karzai announce their agreement to “cooperate in all spheres of activity” including the proposed Central Asian pipeline. Pakistan will give $10 million to Afghanistan to help pay Afghani government workers. [Source: The Irish Times, 2/9/02]

Now, let’s go back to the October 31 story by Le Figaro – the one that has Osama bin Laden meeting with a CIA officer in Dubai this June.

The story says that, “Throughout his stay in the hospital, Osama Bin Laden received visits from many family members [There goes the story that he’s a black sheep!] and Saudi Arabian Emirate personalities of status. During this time the local representative of the CIA was seen by many people taking the elevator and going to bin Laden’s room.

“Several days later the CIA officer bragged to his friends about having visited the Saudi millionaire. From authoritative sources, this CIA agent visited CIA headquarters on July 15th, the day after bin Laden’s departure for Quetta…

“According to various Arab diplomatic sources and French intelligence itself, precise information was communicated to the CIA concerning terrorist attacks aimed at American interests in the world, including its own territory.”…

“Extremely bothered, they [American intelligence officers in a meeting with French intelligence officers] requested from their French peers exact details about the Algerian activists [connected to bin Laden through Dubai banking institutions], without explaining the exact nature of their inquiry. When asked the question, “What do you fear in the coming days?’ the Americans responded with incomprehensible silence.”…

“On further investigation, the FBI discovered certain plans that had been put together between the CIA and its “Islamic friends” over the years. The meeting in Dubai is, so it would seem, consistent with ‘a certain American policy.’”

Even though Le Figaro reported that it had confirmed with hospital staff that bin Laden had been there as reported, stories printed on November 1 contained quotes from hospital staff that these reports were untrue. On November 1, as reported by the Ananova press agency, the CIA flatly denied that any meeting between any CIA personnel and Osama bin Laden at any time.

In the most ironic twist of all, FTW has learned that Le Figaro is owned by the Carlyle Group, the American defense contractor which employs George Bush Sr., and which had as investors – until they sold their stake on October 26 - the bin Laden family.

Who do you believe?

[SOD213]

Blah blah blah.

Do yourself a favor and delete this before other people read it. People that buy into conspiracy theories are morons.

[Simon Ravn]

I certainly believe in conspiracies. Need I say more than three letters - JFK? Anyway, I havent read all of this yet but I will. It seems rather interesting. However what is the source of this? I am sure Nick didn\'t dig all of this up himself?? It is easy to say \'source, BBC bla bla bla\' without any confirmation. But well... interesting anyway.

[Tokyo Joe]

Why do I get the feeling that this is just one giant ad for a video?

I quote:

There is a video you can order at www.copvcia.com (\"http://www.copvcia.com\") called “The Truth and Lies about 9/11.\". Yours for $24.95.

I don\'t mean to imply that Nick\'s behind it.. I mean the original author of the text.


[This message has been edited by Tokyo Joe (edited 04-16-2002).]

[Mark UK]

Truth or not, it made more interesting reading than the stuff on my office desk at the moment!

[esteven1]

Nick,

You must be pissed you owe the IRS a lot of money or something. Where did all this stuff come from all of a sudden ?

[Simon Ravn]

There is no doubt in my mind that America was partly to blame for the attack on themselves... America is not exactly doing good in the Cuba prisoner situation. Do we really know who the people in the camp are? I dont think CIA have a clue who they captured... The prisoners are being humiliated, hair and beards shaven off, living in cages. I mean.. this is Americas version of concentration camps. Human rights are being pissed at. No charges have been raised on any of the prisoners.... really nice.

This is a very interesting subject, and I\'d like to read more material on it, and I am sure if all Americans who believe that their country and people are saints would delve more into a few political issues about money, corruption and hidden agendas, they would all get another image of their own country.

[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 04-16-2002).]

[noenoeil]

Go to : www.reseauvoltaire.com (\"http://www.reseauvoltaire.com\")
For those who can\'t read French, there\'s an automated translation I believe.
Thierry Meyssan\'s book about the 9/11 is about conspiracytheories, but not by the Mel Gibson\'s POV, only facts, official quotes, and it is funny how you just have to read the official declarations from 9/11 until now to understand that something stinks somewhere.
Nick, just one thing, I think the rest of the world (outside US) knows the difference between US citizen and US gov, as I do.
I hope.
Our political system is sick too, anyway.
I\'ll think about all that stuff as soon as I\'ll finish this 300BPM musette with Michiel\'s accordion. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif
Chauffe, Marcel !!!

[scf3]

Nick,
Assuming this has some truth to it, do you have any suggestions as to how Americans should respond to this information?

[Lancelink]

When it comes to politics and the behavior of politicians (U.S. or otherwise) \"there is nothing new under the sun.\"

If any of the facts Nick has brought to light are true, in whole or in part, then it is our obligation as American citizens to speak out against them. Call your Representative your Senators and raise holy hell!!! Democracy is a participatory process!

Nick has posed several questions concerning why things have gotten so corrupt and part of the answer is that Americans are politically lazy. Don\'t miss understand me, I\'m not saying the American people are totally to blame for any corrupt/dishonest thing that our government does, but we share in that responsibility!

I applaud Nick for his indignant concern about these issues. I hope this spurns us all to start checking some facts and start asking for answers.

Having worked on the Hill...I\'ve seen first hand how even a small group of registered voters can make a Congressman/woman shake in their boots and change the way they do business. This is how dialogue starts on the Hill and it can spread like wildfire. Congressional hearings usually start like that!!!

The system isn\'t perfect, but let\'s use what\'s there to shape public policy and make America better!

Lance

[This message has been edited by Lancelink (edited 04-16-2002).]

[Nick Phoenix]

You guys are exactly right. We need to start asking questions. There have been no questions asked in the mainstream media. It has been eerily silent. This is not an ad for a video or just conspiracy theory. There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence. Start reading. Upsetting your perception of reality is always hard. I don\'t like conspiracy theory either, I like facts.

One fact I forgot:
When asked live on CNN and other networks, **** Cheney said the reason that the second plane was allowed to hit the world trade center was that we didn\'t have any fighters in the air. When it was PROVEN that we did and that they were following plane # 2, he was forced to change his story 2 days later. He then said that something brokedown in the chain of command. Gross incompetence or Lies? Either way, a huge story that was buried.

[Z6]

Unfortunately Nick, there\'s nothing you or anyone else can do about any of this. It is the modern world.

The population in the US is rich and happy, and uninterested in US foreign policy.

It costs $150-$200m to elect a president; do you think people (oil/defense companies) give that money away because they like a guy\'s smile?

The US is in possession of some of the greatest documents ever written; living documents that allow for a path toward freedom and meritocracy. But democracy has, of course, been hijacked.

More frightening than all of this: I was in a park recently and the graffiti said \"God bless America\". When even the young have climbed aboard all the lies that ALL governments perpetrate, trouble will swiftly follow. There is no longer in this country any healthy skepticism, the nation has someone new to hate.

Israeli tanks are crushing old women in refugee camps in order to root out the \'terrorists\'. The high moral ground has been seized and slaughter is afoot. More Palestinian youths, made crazy by long years of oppression by a government that assassinated its own shining star who might have brought peace, are strapping bombs to themselves that will kill more innocents.

It could all end tomorrow if the US cut off the money supply.

Bush wants to wage war on Iraq. What did Iraq ever do to the US? Killing innocent Iraqi\'s won\'t hurt Sadam one bit (a man who could have been apprehended years ago and should never have been placed in power by the US government in the first place).

Bush wants to attack Iran. Bush wants to attack... hell, who doesn\'t he want to attack? And the world just sits watching.

Oil prices will surge. Nobody is buying oil puts right now, that\'s for sure, and calls must cost a fortune.

This is payback time. If you want to elect a little stupid man because of his name or his lineage, a price will have to be paid. The office itself does not, unfortunately, imbue its incumbent with special powers to overcome the kind of handicaps Bush has displayed.

We just have to hope that he manages not to blow up the whole world.

Bin Laden is still abroad (surprise, surprise) - and some of us would still like to see the \'evidence\'. A US citizen is innocent until proven guilty, the rest of the world gets the wild west \"Shoot first ask questions later\" treatment. Young American soldiers are dying at the hands of the Taliban still. The Taliban will fight and fight and fight and fight. That is their birthright; their career and hobby. Many more young Americans will die for nothing. The government put in place in Afghanistan by the US is exactly the same as the Taliban; not even a different flavor. Drugs are their only export; this will not change; although it is about to be made more efficient.

And news events squeezed in-between the latest doggie stories show little boys in the middle east throwing stones at tanks - but still somehow few people \'get it\' in the US.

US foreign policy is a monster way out of control and has been for many years. Nobody cares, they\'re all bugs, they\'re all terrorists, kill them all, switch the channel.

I expect this but am disgusted by the inactivity of other Western countries; they know better. Their people are not sucked in by a media that panders to the lowest common denominator, but still Europe sits and watches, afraid of Uncle Sam and his mighty wrath.

My hope is that future generations will look back at our time and wonder how, with all of our sophistication and advances, that we could engage in so many holy wars and cause such pain and despair. My hope is that one day all of this will be a thing of the past.

I fear that day is a long, long way off.

What the hell, let\'s go bomb a few more goatherds today! This is fun! Just like the movie \'Independence day\'. The US is a thousand years more technologically advanced than its enemies - but what if they get \"weapons of mass destruction?\" Hell, let\'s kill them all now! That\'s the answer.

Randy Newman wrote a song about it years ago - and now it\'s happening; he just got the countries wrong \'cause it\'s hard to get something to rhyme with \'Afghanistan\'.

[Damon]

Bush senior and junior have always been shady in my book...PERIOD http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/mad.gif

[Nick Phoenix]

Its not a matter of buying it or not. The US has a long history of covert operations around the world. We have been lied to about almost all of them. The facts always come out later and yet we shrug our shoulders and go back to our comfy lives. 9/11 is different, because it hit close to home. Why should you believe that what you heard on the news wasn\'t true? I am asking you to completely alter your world view. That is very hard to do and for most people will take a long time. But look at the facts. At the very least, there are dozens of questions that need to be answered and yet the media tells us that we shouldn\'t ask them. We should unite instead against our enemy. They never released the proof that Osama was responsible, 12 different nations warned the US about the attacks and yet we claimed to have no knowledge of them. US intelligence monitors the stock market in real time and a tremendous amount of suspicious activity went on just before 9/11 concerning every company that stood to gain or lose. An Isreali company in the WTC packed up suddenly 2 days before the attack. Other Isreali companies left the building moments before it happened. The military just stood by and did nothing during the attacks. If you know anything about the way our military works, this is inconceivable. Picture this- One plane hits the World Trade Center, another hits the Pentagon. A second plane is heading towards NY city closely trailed by 2 F15s. The pilot of this plane is not responding to radio contact. The F15s turn away and the hijacked plane continues all the way into Manhattan crashing into WTC #2. Does this seem strange to you? I want some answers!

[Wacky]

The evidence presented above is credible. As far as I can see Nick is making no irrational, paranoid or illogical leaps. Just because these questions are not addressed in the American Media does not discredit them. In fact, I trust the BBC, the Telegraph and The Guardian much, much more than CNN or even the New York Times. I urge everyone here to read the above evidence and decide for yourselves.

If any one does not consider George W. Bush and those that surround him (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, James Baker) incredibly dangerous, they are woefully naive. As for the statement \"there is nothing new under the sun\" it is not entirely correct - at least when in the context of American History. The Patriot Act has single handedly decimated the bill of rights including habeaus corpus. It\'s scope and breadth dwarf even the Alien and Sedition Laws.

Bush and his corporate oil/energy/military manufacturer cabal transcend the U.S. government and includes many foreign nationals including the Bin Laden family from Saudi Arabia. In fact, the Bin Laden family were investors in Bush Jr.\'s first oil company Arbusto and also resided on the board of the Carlyle Group with Bush Sr. and James Baker until September 11, 2001 at which time they were flown out of the U.S. in a private chartered jet before they could be questioned by the FBI. This is all public record, if you do not believe me look it up...

They do not act in the interest of the United States or it\'s citizens but in their own trans-national interests. They are fundamentally anti-democratic which has been demonstrated by their support of the unconstitutional, illegal and ultra-right wing attempted coup in Venezuela. Also the outrageous anti-democratic decisions during the 2000 presidential election clearly demonstrate that these people will do anything to seize and stay in power. They are ruthless, corrupt and very dangerous.
www.democraticunderground.com (\"http://www.democraticunderground.com\")

[This message has been edited by Wacky (edited 04-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Wacky (edited 04-16-2002).]

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>If you look at the facts (by this I mean reading books, newspapers and government documents), you can conclude one of 2 things.
1. Our government is GROSSLY incompetent <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well DUH! Our history is littered with stupid mistakes by the government.

Every time there is a major attack or incident in the US, there is a conspiracy theory to back it. \"We knew about Pearl Harbor\". \"The CIA killed Kennedy\". I\'m not saying there isn\'t some possibility that these things are true, but just because something bad happened to the US we don\'t have to assume that we \"knew\" about it before hand and let it happen to further some larger motive.

BTW, it is really easy to make up sources because hardly anyone ever goes back and checks them. Has anyone actually checked to verify that the above \"evidence\" is actually true?

C\'mon, Clinton couldn\'t even keep his blowjobs secret from the media. Yet we are to believe that the media is sitting on the biggest scandal story of the last 100 years?

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-16-2002).]

[Wacky]

Losing Latin America
Paul Krugman


Here\'s how the BBC put it: \"Far from condemning the ouster of a democratically elected president, U.S. officials blamed the crisis on Mr. Chávez himself,\" and they were \"clearly pleased with the result\" — even though the new interim government proceeded to abolish the legislature, the judiciary and the Constitution. They were presumably less pleased when the coup attempt collapsed. The BBC again: \"President Chávez\'s comeback has . . . left Washington looking rather stupid.\" The national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, didn\'t help that impression when, incredibly, she cautioned the restored president to \"respect constitutional processes.\"

Surely the worst thing about this episode is the betrayal of our democratic principles; \"of the people, by the people, for the people\" isn\'t supposed to be followed by the words \"as long as it suits U.S. interests.\"

But even viewed as realpolitik, our benign attitude toward Venezuela\'s coup was remarkably foolish.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/16/international/americas/16DIPL.html (\"http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/16/international/americas/16DIPL.html\")

THE REAL BUSH DOCTRINE: AT HOME AND ABROAD
Dubya vs. Democracy


\"Legitimacy is something that is conferred not just by a majority of the voters, however.\" -- Unnamed Bush Administration official on the Venezuela Crisis, quoted in New York Times, April 16, 2002.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/16/international/americas/16DIPL.html (\"http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/16/international/americas/16DIPL.html\")

That\'s right -- just like Bush\'s minister down in Crawford preached it, legitimacy comes from God. And from His servant, Antonin Scalia.

(The \"unnamed official\" will certainly be taken to task by Karl and Karen for implying that winning a majority of the votes is a factor in legitimacy, and not completely irrelevant.)


April 15, 2002

James Baker quietly
lobbies India
Secret visit to gain support for Iraq attack, partner for oil

\"NEW DELHI – The visit was shrouded in secrecy. Only a few dozen people in India knew that James Baker – former U.S. secretary of state, Texan oil man and close confidant and key strategist for Presidents George Bush and George W. Bush – arrived in Delhi a fortnight ago.

The visit set the Indian rumor mill buzzing as oil industry players speculated about its purpose.

Western diplomatic sources confirmed that during the closely-guarded visit, Baker – who cobbled together the global alliance against Saddam Hussein in the 1991 Gulf War – met senior officials of the prime minister\'s office and the external affairs and petroleum ministries. \"
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27210 (\"http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27210\")

[This message has been edited by Wacky (edited 04-16-2002).]

[gabriels]

Bush Senior and Junior certainly didn\'t do this all by themselves. Senior might have had the wherewithal to have a meaningful hand in these things. Junior most probably doesn\'t. Still, the question really isn\'t who did it, but rather how can these machinations be stopped.

Someone posted that we\'re all fat and happy here in the US, and that this isn\'t a recipe for change. I agree. I might even go a step further and say that all of us, with our amazing number of toys (cars, computers, tv\'s, telephones, dishwashers, stereos etc etc) are to blame, in a way.

I\'ve always wondered how much wealth there is in the world, and how much each of us would be entitled to if the wealth were evenly spread among everyone on the planet. My intuition tells me that we might all be living in tents with one goat tied up outside... and that\'s it!! No computer to run Gigasampler! No Midi anything! Not even a place to plug the power cord into if we had some toys (ok, some of us can call them tools instead). If so, maybe we need to look hard at ourselves and realize that we are all benefiting from the actions of our government. If we didn\'t want all of these goodies, we might raise more of a ruckus about our government\'s activities. If we all of a sudden got scruples, we\'d be playing 3 holed flutes in the forest. On the other hand, each of us peons is probably benefiting 1/1000th as much as many people in power with their snouts deeply in the trough.
Gabriel

[mal7]

OK...You have all made your point...but what the #*^%# has this got to do with GS Software? Maybe you should be airing your views on the appropriate forum....

[gabriels]

Or maybe the most appropriate forum, and the one in which your opinion will make the most difference is precisely the one whose participants have interests and passions in common with you. Why compartmentalize your thoughts and your impact on the world. These people are an important part of your world in more ways than just the fact that they like to share thoughts about a piece of software.
Gabriel

[jubal]

I see an Oliver Stone movie coming out of this stuff...with Nick doing the trailer.

[eliam]

The truth is: those who believe in miracles, please call for one because we need it RIGHT NOW! And I don\'t mean this parrot-like kind of prayer, but a COMMAND to the forces of good to TAKE CONTROL OF EVERY OFFICE IN AMERICA!!!

Truly, I see no other way to have all the hordes of evil annihilated from the surface of the Earth than saying (with all the power at your disposal) \"Great Light from the Highest Spheres of Life, Legions of Angels from the Heart of God, come forth in full power and CONSUME FROM THE PLANET ALL THAT IMPOSES DISCORD AND FEAR AND DESECRATION UPON LIFE!\"

Without this kind of call to the Forces higher than ourselves, how are we ever going to correct the wrong that we\'ve generated? Certainly not in the way that we see in the papers every day!

Anyway, be at peace, for all is well, a few thousands individuals are making their daily calls for mankind\'s purification and protection, and thanks to that, we are not living the third episode of Washington\'s vision at this moment!

[Nick Phoenix]

Well put Z6, but there is something that can be done. The level of ignorance on these issues in the US is astounding. If people knew the truth about 9/11, things would change. The kind of blind support that the 2 parties receive would dwindle, if this came out. God Bless America? How about God bless the world and everything living on it.

[Kobb]

Good Lord, it\'s easy to tell that this is a BBS full of artists.

I don\'t buy it.

[varmintt]

the reason this discussion is posted here is that no political forum would take this crap seriously...you guys give pres. bush too much credit.

its time to face up to the fact that the world is going to end soon...and since the world has become such a heap of rotting cow dung, i dont lose much sleep over it.

[Nick Phoenix]

The reason that no political forum would take this crap seriously, is that most people have been brainwashed. The US gov. has been working this way for decades, but things are getting out of hand. I would like to see some documented counterarguments and explanations for what happened on 9/11. All the skeptics have offered no explanation for all of the facts that I presented. It is not enough to call it crap and conspiracy theory. The fact is that most Americans don\'t read much, are too comfortable, are lazy or greedy and don\'t want to hear about it. I don\'t know how long that will last though.

[David Sears]

You are making up \"facts\" as you go. I don\'t have time to address all of them but here is the truth behind a couple of your facts. You state that Ken Lay was Bush\'s #1 campaign contributor. He wasn\'t even on the top 100 as an individual and Enron was a rock solid
89 with $546,027 as compared to the number 1 contributor The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees at $4,235,555 for Gore. You can check for yourself at http://www.opensecrets.org/ (\"http://www.opensecrets.org/\")

I suspect that the rest of your \"facts\" are as substantial. Either you are gullible, blatantly misinformed or an outright liar. I hope you are just misinformed. Perhaps you are the one who should do some more reading?

- David

[Munsie]

D a m n!

I was hoping this was another developer v.s. developer OR developer v.s. end user thread! LOL!!

[Wacky]

\"you guys give pres. bush too much credit.\"

No, I give him no credit whatsoever. I give the cabal around him credit. Baker, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poppy Bush. These are the same bozo\'s in the Nixon, Ford and Reagan administrations. Bush Sr. was head of the CIA for years. He in fact was an operative in Texas when Kennedy was shot. These people are in business together with the elite of Saudi Arabia (including the Bin Ladens) who are the many suppliers of money to Al-Queda and the home of 15 of the 19 terrorists on September 11, 2001. They directly or indirectly control most of the oil consumed in the U.S. They own (Carlyle Group) the biggest defense contractor in the world (with the Bin Ladens.) They hold responsibility for many South American hard-right, facsist-military coups including Chile (Pinochet), El Salvador, Guatamala, Nicuragua and now Venezuela. In fact Otto Reich, the fascist operative **** who brought us Iran Contra and many another Central American coup was recently appointed to a cabinet position overseeing the Western Hemisphere. It is little conicidence that the failed coup in Venezuela happened only 3 months later.

These *******s from Texas were meeting with the Taliban in Texas in 1997 negotiating to put a pipeline through Afghanistan. In fact, in June of 2001 these same people, through the CIA, threatened The Taliban with invasion if they did not agree to let a pipeline go through. What a coincidence it would be if only 4 months later the \"excuse\" suddenly happened.

When the facts are analyzed in this manner one has two choices: Either be a \"coincidence theorist\" or a \"conspiracy theorist\". Which one seems more justified?

[Wacky]

\"You are making up \"facts\" as you go.\"
http://www.tpj.org/pioneers/kenneth_lay.html (\"http://www.tpj.org/pioneers/kenneth_lay.html\")

\"The $550,025 that the Enron Corp. gave Bush over the years makes it his No. 1 career patron\"


You are looking at the presidential race, and not including G.W.\'s gubenatorial races. Enron is Bush\'s #1 career contributor.


http://www.motherjones.com/web_exclusives/special_reports/mojo_400/76_lay.html (\"http://www.motherjones.com/web_exclusives/special_reports/mojo_400/76_lay.html\")

\"In 1992, Enron hired former Secretary of State James Baker to hustle contracts for the company in Kuwait,\"

\"Lay signed on early as a Bush Pioneer, committing to raise at least $100,000 for the campaign. Enron reportedly put its corporate jets at the disposal of the Bush campaign eight times last year, and Lay and his company also kicked in $300,000 to underwrite Bush\'s inauguration.\"

Nuke Texas...

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Sears:
You are making up \"facts\" as you go. I don\'t have time to address all of them but here is the truth behind a couple of your facts. You state that Ken Lay was Bush\'s #1 campaign contributor. He wasn\'t even on the top 100 as an individual and Enron was a rock solid
89 with $546,027 as compared to the number 1 contributor The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees at $4,235,555 for Gore. You can check for yourself at http://www.opensecrets.org/ (\"http://www.opensecrets.org/\")

I suspect that the rest of your \"facts\" are as substantial. Either you are gullible, blatantly misinformed or an outright liar. I hope you are just misinformed. Perhaps you are the one who should do some more reading?

- David<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I went to the site and found this: \"Bush, with more than $1.8 million in contributions, got more money from the industry during 1999-2000 than any other federal candidate over the last decade.\"

And this:

\"The most generous: the Houston-based Enron, the industry’s No. 1 contributor during 1999-2000 with more than $2.3 million in contributions, about $1 million more than No. 2 ranked Exxon-Mobil.\"

It was a horrible site to navigate. Statistics are pretty elastic little buggars are they not?

Your post to Nick was quite rude, and it really didn\'t address the point(s) he was making at all.

Also, have you checked out how many of the \"Lay\" family were contributors?

But that is by the by. To assume that the BBC and other European news agencies somehow \'make it all up\' is beyond ludicrous.

The rest of the world is not like the US in the \'news\' department. There are many news agancies that actually do just that; they report the news, check facts, write reports and provide analyses.

I\'m not telling anyone what to \'believe\', but I find it interesting that all of the vitriol spewed in Nick\'s direction seems to do with him somehow offending someone\'s \'beliefs\'.

Let the facts speak for themselves. The truth will out. Although, unlike Nick, I \'believe\' that nothing whatever will happen to anyone \'implicated\' - no matter how strong the evidence.

When a US navy captain shot down a planeload of people in the Persian Gulf a few years ago, the captain was \'decorated\' for his efforts. The BBC made a wonderful documentary about it (which will not be watched by many Americans), in which many US naval officers and former CIA men explained how the captain in question was the \'only\' one who would have shot the plane down; that\'s why he was \'chosen\'. The US has still not even apologized for this. I personally know of a woman who went mad and commited suicide after her whole family were killed in this \'incident\' (so please don\'t even think about \'educating\' me on this matter).

We will learn the whole truth when that truth no longer hurts the guilty.

At the very, very, very least. Something very wrong went on. The complete absence of any outrage at all against the people paid to protect US citizens is almost evidence enough,in itself, to know that things fishy are afoot.

[midphase]

Great going! Now the FBI is going to come in and shut this site down!

We\'re all going to get deported, exported and excommunicated!!!

[Nick Phoenix]

David Sears,
Obviously you are the one not reading. Kenneth Lay was George W.\'s #1 campaign contributor. This has been published by hundreds of newspapers worldwide. But, that really isn\'t the point. Doesn\'t the Enron/Whitehouse connection bother you? Are you aware of the scope of the connections?

Here\'s a FACT (published in the Oct. 12 New Yorker) that I uncovered today-

In the days following 9/11 when no plane was allowed to fly in US skies, one plane was allowed to fly around the US and pick up family members. The Bin-Laden family jet. The FBI protested vehemently, but a direct order was given by George W.

Now, the reason that the FBI protested is that in any murder investigation, the family members are ALWAYS questioned.

Also, Osama the CAVEJUMPER is on dialisis. This needs a Farside cartoon!

[Darby]

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm (\"http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm\")

as if what nick said wasn\'t enough, i throw some fuel on the fire....

[Synth2k]

Gosh, I\'m glad all we have to deal with up here in Canada is a blundering malcontented Prime Minister who wears handcrafted pots given to him by African dignitaries on his head.

Oh, and the misplacement of a couple billion dollars here and there.

Ryan.

[Hildog]

Damn! I was just going to let this go, but it\'s too late:

Disinformation comes from all sides – not just from whoever happens to be running the government at any given time. The press will publish (and people will repeat) anything that sounds like a good story – as is shown right here on this forum.

First of all, anything you read on the internet should be immediately suspect – outside of the major news sources (NY Times, Washington Post, CNN, etc.) whom I would like to think, perhaps mistakenly, still have some shred of journalistic integrity left (of course, they are all owned by major corporations - if it was AOL/Time Warner in Enron\'s shoes, could you really expect impartiality from CNN ?), does anyone see any real reason to believe what they hear or read ? Why is it that there are roughly equal numbers of these usually far-fetched stories that both support and criticize the current government ? Could it be that these stories are coming from more than one source, some of which support the current administration and some of which oppose it ?

\"Bush Sr. was head of the CIA for years. He in fact was an operative in Texas when Kennedy was shot.\"

Okay, you’ve got to be kidding me with this stuff. First of all, he was not the head of the CIA for years – his tenure as DCI was exactly Jan. 30, 1976 – Jan. 20, 1977. Where did you dig up this little gem – the CIA annual yearbook ? Was he stationed down in the sewer with a rifle ? That’s ridiculous – it could be be true for all we know – but I guarantee you that if we ever find out, it won’t be until we’re all very old and very grey.

\"Here\'s a FACT (published in the Oct. 12 New Yorker) that I uncovered today-

In the days following 9/11 when no plane was allowed to fly in US skies, one plane was allowed to fly around the US and pick up family members. The Bin-Laden family jet.\"

What, did the New Yorker publish the FAA tower radar data, flight manifests, pictures and IDs of the passengers who were picked up and dropped off? Did they have independent consultants assess the data? Maybe they did – I didn’t read it. Or is their source somebody who is still pissed about Bill Clinton’s impeachment?

Here’s a fact: since the beginning of governments, governments have always operated in secret and they always will. They’re all about getting and keeping power for as long as they possibly can. It’s only logical to assume that the Roman Empire had its share of secrets, as did the British Empire, the s, the Taliban, and the U.S. government – some (most?) of which we are not meant to ever know and probably will not ever find out. Yes, something super-fishy was going on when Kennedy was assassinated, there’s probably something going on out there at Area 51, maybe the U.S Navy shot down TWA Flight 800, and who the hell knows what\'s going on between Enron, the CIA, George Bush, and the Taliban.

So go ahead and speculate all you like – I hope it keeps you entertained – this kind of speculation definitely keeps me thinking – but I don’t for a minute presume that I’m ever going to find out everything – and I don’t assume for a minute that any piece of information I hear or read is made public for any other reason than a) the advancement of an agenda, b) an accident, or c) the information is pretty much irrelevent.


[This message has been edited by Hildog (edited 04-18-2002).]

[Nick Phoenix]

My dad is a former crash investigator and says that the French website does not make a strong case that it wasn\'t a plane that hit the Pentagon. It is entirely possible that a 747 would only damage the Pentagon slightly as we see in the pictures. Sometimes all that is left are the mangled engines, which I assume they have.

Hildog,
It is not irrelevant. These facts come from reputable sources like the NY Times, the New Yorker, the BBC etc. What bothers me is that there haven\'t been any real questions by the television media, so most Americans are ignorant. They ARE asking these questions in Europe. The propoganda in the US is amazing. Its starting to feel like the Soviet Union without the poverty. Everybody knows more than us.

Regardless of what you want to believe-
Questions that need to be answered-

1. How could such a massive failure in the Department of Defense have happened, when the US was repeatedly warned about the attacks and many in the stock market knew of the attacks?

2. What happened to our defense protocol on 9/11 and what was the chain of command?

3. Why wasn\'t George W. notified until 45 minutes after the attack?

4. Why did **** Cheney lie on National TV about the fighter planes that we had in the air?

5. How could they let plane #4 crash into tower #2, when it would have been easy to shoot it down?

6. Why was the American public not notified that we were planning to attack Afganistan anyway, well before the attacks happened, in order to secure the building of our oil pipeline?

7. What is our governments relationship to the Bin Laden family?

8. Why was the Bin Laden family jet allowed to fly in the US, immediately following the attacks, when no other plane was in the air?

9. Why hasn\'t the CIA followed up numerous reports that Osama met with members of his family recently?

.... too tired..... more later......

[Phattlippz]

I for one am relieved to see that some people are asking these questions. I felt from the start and continue to feel that there is something very strange about what went down. I would love to be able to accept the party line on this, but questions need to be answered...

[Damon]

Nick,
I have found this a most interesting thread but what I want to ask you is by giving us this information, if it were true, what would you want us to do?
Ive always questioned shady politics and do believe in some conspiracies (ex:JFK). The bottom line is this though, if we all were to \"say or do something about this\" we would still not get the truth. Of course the CIA and government are gonna lie to us because if they were forced to tell us the truth about certain things, they would fear another Tim McVeigh. You know that.
How about the plane that \"supposedly\" crashed in Pennsylvania. They sure were quick to cover that one up. Witnesses claimed to see a jet or jets shoot the plane down because they knew where it might be headed next. You think the government would admit to telling us that? I think they should, but the fact is there are secrets and always will be and there ain\'t a thing we can do about it except move to another country.
Sad but true http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif
I do agree with you about alot of Americans being lazy about not looking into things and keeping up with current events, but the fact remains there\'s not much we can do about it.




[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 04-18-2002).]

[Nick Phoenix]

Damon,
I will post a concise list of questions and a simplified, documented timeline of events relating to 9/11 soon. It is then up to everybody who reads it, to decide if they agree that these questions need answering. If so, then it is your DUTY as an American, to copy the info into an email and send it to everyone you know. People can be very powerful.

[Nick Phoenix]

Hey I just saw a US government document that was recently declassified.
It was from the 50\'s and it explicitly details a CIA plan to shoot down 2 US army planes and claim they were airliners. The goal being to gain support for war with Cuba. This was never done, but it still gives insight into the mentality of these people.

[Wacky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hildog:
Damn! I was just going to let this go, but it\'s too late:

Disinformation comes from all sides – not just from whoever happens to be running the government at any given time. The press will publish (and people will repeat) anything that sounds like a good story – as is shown right here on this forum.

First of all, anything you read on the internet should be immediately suspect – outside of the major news sources (NY Times, Washington Post, CNN, etc.) whom I would like to think, perhaps mistakenly, still have some shred of journalistic integrity left (of course, they are all owned by major corporations - if it was AOL/Time Warner in Enron\'s shoes, could you really expect impartiality from CNN ?), does anyone see any real reason to believe what they hear or read ? Why is it that there are roughly equal numbers of these usually far-fetched stories that both support and criticize the current government ? Could it be that these stories are coming from more than one source, some of which support the current administration and some of which oppose it ?

\"Bush Sr. was head of the CIA for years. He in fact was an operative in Texas when Kennedy was shot.\"

Okay, you’ve got to be kidding me with this stuff. First of all, he was not the head of the CIA for years – his tenure as DCI was exactly Jan. 30, 1976 – Jan. 20, 1977. Where did you dig up this little gem – the CIA annual yearbook ? Was he stationed down in the sewer with a rifle ? That’s ridiculous – it could be be true for all we know – but I guarantee you that if we ever find out, it won’t be until we’re all very old and very grey.

\"Here\'s a FACT (published in the Oct. 12 New Yorker) that I uncovered today-

In the days following 9/11 when no plane was allowed to fly in US skies, one plane was allowed to fly around the US and pick up family members. The Bin-Laden family jet.\"

What, did the New Yorker publish the FAA tower radar data, flight manifests, pictures and IDs of the passengers who were picked up and dropped off? Did they have independent consultants assess the data? Maybe they did – I didn’t read it. Or is their source somebody who is still pissed about Bill Clinton’s impeachment?

Here’s a fact: since the beginning of governments, governments have always operated in secret and they always will. They’re all about getting and keeping power for as long as they possibly can. It’s only logical to assume that the Roman Empire had its share of secrets, as did the British Empire, the s, the Taliban, and the U.S. government – some (most?) of which we are not meant to ever know and probably will not ever find out. Yes, something super-fishy was going on when Kennedy was assassinated, there’s probably something going on out there at Area 51, maybe the U.S Navy shot down TWA Flight 800, and who the hell knows what\'s going on between Enron, the CIA, George Bush, and the Taliban.

So go ahead and speculate all you like – I hope it keeps you entertained – this kind of speculation definitely keeps me thinking – but I don’t for a minute presume that I’m ever going to find out everything – and I don’t assume for a minute that any piece of information I hear or read is made public for any other reason than a) the advancement of an agenda, b) an accident, or c) the information is pretty much irrelevent.


[This message has been edited by Hildog (edited 04-18-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.tarpley.net/bush8b.htm (\"http://www.tarpley.net/bush8b.htm\")

From the Biography:

\"A body of leads has been assembled which suggests that George Bush may have been associated with the CIA at some time before the autumn of 1963. According to Joseph McBride of The Nation, \"a source with close connections to the intelligence community confirms that Bush started working for the agency in 1960 or 1961, using his oil business as a cover for clandestine activities.\" 1 By the time of the Kennedy assassination, we have an official FBI document which refers to \"Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency,\" and despite official disclaimers there is every reason to think that this is indeed the man in the White House today. The mystery of George Bush as a possible covert operator hinges on four points, each one of which represents one of the great political and espionage scandals of postwar American history. These four cardinal points are:

1. The abortive Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, launched on April 16-17, 1961, prepared with the assistance of the CIA\'s \"Miami Station\" (also known under the code name JM/WAVE). After the failure of the amphibious landings of Brigade 2506, Miami station, under the leadership of Theodore Shackley, became the focus for Operation Mongoose, a series of covert operations directed against Castro, Cuba, and possibly other targets.

2. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy in Dallas on November 22, 1963, and the coverup of those responsible for this crime.

3. The Watergate scandal, beginning with an April, 1971 visit to Miami, Florida by E. Howard Hunt on the tenth anniversary of the Bay of Pigs invasion to recruit operatives for the White House Special Investigations Unit (the \"Plumbers\" and later Watergate burglars) from among Cuban-American Bay of Pigs veterans.

4. The Iran-contra affair, which became a public scandal during October-November 1986, several of whose central figures, such as Felix Rodriguez, were also veterans of the Bay of Pigs.\"

\"This FBI document identifying George Bush as a CIA agent in November, 1963 was first published by Joseph McBride in The Nation in July, 1988, just before Bush received the Republican nomination for president. McBride\'s source observed: \"I know [Bush] was involved in the Caribbean. I know he was involved in the suppression of things after the Kennedy assassination. There was a very definite worry that some Cuban groups were going to move against Castro and attempt to blame it on the CIA.\" 20 When pressed for confirmation or denial, Bush\'s spokesman Stephen Hart commented: \"Must be another George Bush.\" Within a short time the CIA itself would peddle the same damage control line.\"


\"George Herbert Walker Bush, who, in addition to his possible contact with Lee Harvey Oswald\'s controller, may thus also join the ranks of the Kennedy assassination cover-up. It makes perfect sense for George Bush to be called in on a matter involving the Cuban community in Miami, since that is a place where George has traditionally had a constituency. George inherited it from his father, Prescott Bush of Jupiter Island, and later passed it on to his own son, Jeb.\"


Cheers...

BTW - if you are ever interested I suggest you peruse the foreign press (British or European) regarding matters surrounding 9/11. You may be surprised when you compare to those outlets of American \"integrity\" CNN, NYT, etc. The coverage is RADICALLY different even to the point of the American press not even addressing certain issues, facts and events. The article you quote in the New Yorker is one of about 200 articles in the foreign press that talks about The Bin Laden family being whisked away in a private jet by the Bush administration. To discount that article because of it\'s anomalous nature in the context of the American media is just plain ignorant and it means, like most Americans, you have no idea what is going on in the rest of the world.

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Baker, Bush, Otto Reich - These people are not acting in America\'s interest. To believe so is dangerous and naive. These people are facsists. And I am using the term in the way Mussolini used it - as a synonym for Corporatism.

[This message has been edited by Wacky (edited 04-19-2002).]

[Hildog]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wacky:

From the Biography:

To discount that article because of it\'s anomalous nature in the context of the American media is just plain ignorant and it means, like most Americans, you have no idea what is going on in the rest of the world.

[This message has been edited by Wacky (edited 04-19-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, sure, you don\'t get to be the head of the CIA without an intelligence background - and I\'m not just rejecting the idea that George Bush the elder was somehow involved in the Kennedy assassination - it could very well be true - but it really starts to undermine one\'s credibility, whether or not it\'s backed up with facts, when you start to blame almost every major political scandal of the past 40 years on one group of people. Actually I would feel a little better if all that stuff could be definitively traced back to one source. At least you\'d know who you were dealing with and what they\'re actually capable of.

But assuming this \"secret society\" does exist (a combination of spies, politicians, soldiers, and, what, CEOs ?), the very thing that they could/can count on to keep their secrets are conspiracy theories. And when you overstate your case for emphasis, for example:

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Baker, Bush, Otto Reich - These people are not acting in America\'s interest. To believe so is dangerous and naive. These people are facsists. And I am using the term in the way Mussolini used it - as a synonym for Corporatism.

I\'m not sure you\'re doing much more than contributing to the whole wacky conspiracy theory subculture, as opposed to actually looking for facts. You\'re immediately starting to lose credibility just by using the term \"fascist\" (which, for those who don\'t know and are interested):

fas·cism Pronunciation Key (f sh z m)
n.
1. often Fascism
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

So, okay, you accuse Rumsfeld, Bush, et al of being corporatist - those corporations being, I assume, oil and defense contractors ?

Well how about this, if you really want to get pissed about corporations, take a good look at the (American) automotive and tobacco industries - they\'re responsible for more American deaths than all the wars we\'ve ever fought combined. If you want to go digging for facts - start taking a good look into these guys. It may not be as sexy as a huge Afghanistan/Sept. 11/Iran Contra/Kennedy assassination conspiracy, but both of these corporate entities deliberately spend millions, if not billions of dollars every year **fighting to make their products **more dangerous** to the consumer - more likely to kill you - and people are paying for that ?!?!

By the way, could you define \"America\'s best interests\" for me ?


[This message has been edited by Hildog (edited 04-19-2002).]

[pmuse]

Great discussion here. I\'m glad to see it among such sensitive and intelligent people. I think the biggest problem we have in the US is that of ignorance. We have a system that works if and when we work the system.

People have the power. More than we realize. But we\'re way too busy in pursuit of the American dream to take time to edify ourselves and do anything about it. The average citizen feels pretty darn powerless to do anything when multi-national coporations seem to have overwhelming influence over political issues. If you believe this then you, as a free individual are defeated already.

The thing to do is to talk about these things with your friends, family and peer group. Write letters to those who are elected to represent you. Under public pressure, elected officials will back down. Otherwise we will continue to remain ignorant and governed by tacit consent.

I hope discussions like this continue to keep us informed and concerned. I also encourage all of us to work the gifts we have as artists and technical people. These things have a way of lightening a heavy load and will do more good to those around us than we can ever know.

Kevin

[tomhartman]

Like discussing religion.

Poor net etiquette, sorry, got to say it.

This stuff has no business here.

And that\'s JMHO. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[Hildog]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tomhartman:
Like discussing religion.

Poor net etiquette, sorry, got to say it.

This stuff has no business here.

And that\'s JMHO. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah - we established that in the first post of this thread - so we\'re just going with it.

I eagerly await the response to my last post - and not just so I can rebut it - I\'m actually learning and thinking about stuff here.

[Nick Phoenix]

Focus is fading....
Documented facts- The US has been planning to attack Afghanistan for years, had already mobilized troops to the area before 9/11, was warned in many ways of the attacks, did not follow protocol on 9/11, did allow the Bin Laden jet to fly in the US, when no other plane was allowed ( the New Yorker published the details, has not retracted and is still in business), has appointed former Unocal employee as the prime minister of Afghanistan, has begun prep work on the now possible Afghani pipeline, has not produced proof that Osama did it, has portayed Osama as healyhy with no mention of dialisis, lied(Cheney) about our lack of military response on 9/11.

Only a raging, drooling, blithering fool wouldn\'t agree that this does not match the story that the US media spoon fed us. Karl Rove style denial does not work with me. I want facts. Not one fact has been proven wrong by anyone.

[Deep White]

A Taiwanese here.

1. I hate the US government and love the US people. I know a lot of nice US folks, so don\'t worry that we foreigners mix you 2 together.

2. For info abour 911, we only watched BBC, no CNN.

3. I believe everything in the movie \"JFK\", unless someone comes out and provide everybody some solid evidence against the story of the movie. That\'s what I like about the \"conspiracy theory\": if no one comes out to clear things out, it means the that the truth is simply uglier.

[Lucas]

OK, I admit I\'m a conspiracy buff. There is a lot of information here and no doubt at least some of it is true.

However, there is one important point I would like to add - that the US Government is the WRONG target. Some of them may be beholden to the actual perpetrators but you\'ll see the activities Nick mentioned span well more than the term of office. For instance, we have recent bombings starting in 1993 with the World Trade Center and several more over the next nine years. The Arab situation actually goes back to the 70\'s and probably much, much earlier.

By misidentifying the actual villains we are just contributing to the chaos. But if you look a little more into the matter you will find these things have been going on for hundreds of years.

I get tired of hearing that every US Presidential administration is evil and the cause of all the trouble. This all began before there even was a US.

[Nick Phoenix]

Lucas,

Great point. This has more to do with the CIA than anything. Unfortunately the Bushes and the CIA are almost one in the same thing. This is an evil administration with lots of old- timers from Poppy Bush\'s administration and before.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT- Most of the top CIA guys are former bankers. Interesting isn\'t it? Want to know why?

[Wacky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hildog:
Okay, sure, you don\'t get to be the head of the CIA without an intelligence background - and I\'m not just rejecting the idea that George Bush the elder was somehow involved in the Kennedy assassination - it could very well be true - but it really starts to undermine one\'s credibility, whether or not it\'s backed up with facts, when you start to blame almost every major political scandal of the past 40 years on one group of people. Actually I would feel a little better if all that stuff could be definitively traced back to one source. At least you\'d know who you were dealing with and what they\'re actually capable of.

But assuming this \"secret society\" does exist (a combination of spies, politicians, soldiers, and, what, CEOs ?), the very thing that they could/can count on to keep their secrets are conspiracy theories. And when you overstate your case for emphasis, for example:

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Baker, Bush, Otto Reich - These people are not acting in America\'s interest. To believe so is dangerous and naive. These people are facsists. And I am using the term in the way Mussolini used it - as a synonym for Corporatism.

I\'m not sure you\'re doing much more than contributing to the whole wacky conspiracy theory subculture, as opposed to actually looking for facts. You\'re immediately starting to lose credibility just by using the term \"fascist\" (which, for those who don\'t know and are interested):

fas·cism Pronunciation Key (f sh z m)
n.
1. often Fascism
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

So, okay, you accuse Rumsfeld, Bush, et al of being corporatist - those corporations being, I assume, oil and defense contractors ?

Well how about this, if you really want to get pissed about corporations, take a good look at the (American) automotive and tobacco industries - they\'re responsible for more American deaths than all the wars we\'ve ever fought combined. If you want to go digging for facts - start taking a good look into these guys. It may not be as sexy as a huge Afghanistan/Sept. 11/Iran Contra/Kennedy assassination conspiracy, but both of these corporate entities deliberately spend millions, if not billions of dollars every year **fighting to make their products **more dangerous** to the consumer - more likely to kill you - and people are paying for that ?!?!

By the way, could you define \"America\'s best interests\" for me ?


[This message has been edited by Hildog (edited 04-19-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Governments operating in \"A country\'s best interest\" is the engine that drives Real Politik. If you haven\'t noticed, since the Bush cabal has been back in office, our foreign policy has made no apologies for being based on a Real Politik model. You can see constant justifications from neo-conservatives like William Kristol, Fred Barnes and the rest of the facsists over at The Weekley Standard as well as in books like \"Warrior Politics\" by Robert Kaplan. Unfortunately, this is a very naive viewpoint. The idiots who are currently in charge are not operating in a traditional REal Politik model where every nation is operating in it\'s own interests - the fascist cabal currently residing in the WH has interests that far transcend the U.S. They are business partners with foreign nationals, former and current heads of state and don\'t give a rats *** what happens to the U.S. as long as they make money.

Believe it or not there is a cult that is not so secret that is associated with the current administration. Look up the cabinet of the Nixon administration. **** Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld ran it. Just like the current administration. These are also the people that ran the Iran Contra Affair. THE SAME PEOPLE. The Judge who is deciding the Enron case in Houston was a partner in James Baker III\'s law firm. Kenneth Lay has been giving George W. Bush since the 70\'s. I am not being paranoid when I say that there is a handful of people in Texas that have wielded a great amount of power in Private Industry (Cheney CEO, All 3 Bush\'s CEO, Baker etc.) and Government since the end of World War II. These people, if not implicatible in every scandal of the last half of the 20th century, have been involved to some extent in Cuba, the Bay of Pigs, the Kennedy Assination, Watergate, Vietnam, Pinochet\'s Rule in Chile, East Timor, Iran Contra, S&L Scandal (Neil Bush, W\'s younger brother) and ENRON. It\'s the same people. It\'s public knowledge. Look it up. Don\'t take my word for it. There is no conspiracy. There are people like them in every era throughout history. Now these same people are implicated in the coup in Venezuela and evidence points to at least foreknowledge of some kind of terrorist attacks in early September.

I am not in any way suggesting they organized September 11, 2001. I am suggesting that the Bush Cabal knew that something was going to happen that they could use as an excuse to go into Afghanistan. They were probably as surprised as everyone on September 11, 2001 that the attacks were as big and deadly as they were. This at least makes them negligent...and treasonous by putting their business interests ahead of America.

[This message has been edited by Wacky (edited 04-20-2002).]

[Wacky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
Lucas,

Great point. This has more to do with the CIA than anything. Unfortunately the Bushes and the CIA are almost one in the same thing. This is an evil administration with lots of old- timers from Poppy Bush\'s administration and before.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT- Most of the top CIA guys are former bankers. Interesting isn\'t it? Want to know why?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does anyone remember the \"put\" options on American and United Airlines on September 9th?

If you do research, some of the options were put through a finacial firm managed by a guy named A.B. \"Buzzy\" Krongard who is currently the exectutive director of the CIA.

Don\'t believe me?

http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/press_release/archives/2001/pr03162001.html (\"http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/press_release/archives/2001/pr03162001.html\")

\"A longtime consultant to DCIs, Mr. Krongard joined the Agency full time in February, 1998 following an extraordinary 29-year business career. During his private sector career he served as Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the Board of Alex.Brown Incorporated, the nation’s oldest investment banking firm, and Vice Chairman of the Board of Bankers Trust.\"
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/2001/09/24/FFX325EQXRC.html (\"http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/2001/09/24/FFX325EQXRC.html\")

\"Three trading days before the attack, the volume of puts in United rocketed to an astonishing 285 times the average trading level. The day before, two American Airlines planes were crashed, the number of put options bought in the airline rose to reach 60 times the daily average.\"
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=99402 (\"http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=99402\")

\"Further details of the futures trades that netted such huge gains in the wake of the hijackings have been disclosed. To the embarrassment of investigators, it has also emerged that the firm used to buy many of the \"put\" options – where a trader, in effect, bets on a share price fall – on United Airlines stock was headed until 1998 by \"Buzzy\" Krongard, now executive director of the CIA.

Until 1997, Mr Krongard was chairman of Alex Brown Inc, America\'s oldest investment banking firm. Alex Brown was acquired by Bankers Trust, which in turn was bought by Deutsche Bank. His last post before resigning to take his senior role in the CIA was to head Bankers Trust – Alex Brown\'s private client business, dealing with the accounts and investments of wealthy customers around the world.\"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4293682,00.html (\"http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4293682,00.html\")

\"FBI and military intelligence officials in Washington say they were prevented for political reasons from carrying out full investigations into members of the Bin Laden family in the US before the terrorist attacks of September 11\"

http://baltimorechronicle.com/media3_oct01.shtml (\"http://baltimorechronicle.com/media3_oct01.shtml\")

\"On Sept. 27, the WSJ published a “Special Report: Aftermath of Terror” with the headline “Bin Laden Family Could Profit From a Jump In Defense Spending Due to Ties to U.S. Bank.” The “bank” is actually The Carlyle Group (and by the way, we peons can’t invest in it, and it sure isn’t taking deposits from the general public). The lead sentence reads: “If the U.S. boosts defense spending in its quest to stop Osama bin Laden’s alleged terrorist activities, there may be one unexpected beneficiary: Mr. bin Laden’s family.” And, though the WSJ curiously did not mention this, another beneficiary may be George H.W. Bush’s family.\"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4288516,00.html (\"http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4288516,00.html\")

\"For 14 years now, with almost no publicity, the company has been signing up an impressive list of former politicians - including the first President Bush and his secretary of state, James Baker; John Major; one-time World Bank treasurer Afsaneh Masheyekhi and several south-east Asian powerbrokers - and using their contacts and influence to promote the group. Among the companies Carlyle owns are those which make equipment, vehicles and munitions for the US military, and its celebrity employees have long served an ingenious dual purpose, helping encourage investments from the very wealthy while also smoothing the path for Carlyle\'s defence firms.\"

\"Carlyle has become the thread which indirectly links American military policy in Afghanistan to the personal financial fortunes of its celebrity employees, not least the current president\'s father. And, until earlier this month, Carlyle provided another curious link to the Afghan crisis: among the firm\'s multi-million-dollar investors were members of the family of Osama bin Laden.\"

\"Carlyle partners, who include (James)Baker and the firm\'s chairman, Frank Carlucci - Ronald Reagan\'s defence secretary and a former deputy director of the CIA - own stakes that would be worth $180m each if each partner owned an equal slice.\"

\"\"It should be a deep cause for concern that a closely held company like Carlyle can simultaneously have directors and advisers that are doing business and making money and also advising the president of the United States,\" says Peter Eisner, managing director of the Center for Public Integrity, a non-profit-making Washington think-tank. \"The problem comes when private business and public policy blend together. What hat is former president Bush wearing when he tells Crown Prince Abdullah not to worry about US policy in the Middle East? What hat does he use when he deals with South Korea, and causes policy changes there? Or when James Baker helps argue the presidential election in the younger Bush\'s favour?\"

Are you a \"coincidence theorist\" or a \"conspiracy theorist\"?????


[This message has been edited by Wacky (edited 04-20-2002).]

[Nick Phoenix]

Three cheers for Wacky!

[Wacky]

And the shameful evil continues:

Otto Reich, John Negropronte, Elliot Abrams

Venezuela coup linked to Bush team

http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html (\"http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html\")

\"Now officials at the Organisation of American States and other diplomatic sources, talking to The Observer, assert that the US administration was not only aware the coup was about to take place, but had sanctioned it, presuming it to be destined for success.

The visits by Venezuelans plotting a coup, including Carmona himself, began, say sources, \'several months ago\', and continued until weeks before the putsch last weekend. The visitors were received at the White House by the man President George Bush tasked to be his key policy-maker for Latin America, Otto Reich.\"

\"Reich also has close ties to Venezuela, having been made ambassador to Caracas in 1986. His appointment was contested both by Democrats in Washington and political leaders in the Latin American country. The objections were overridden as Venezuela sought access to the US oil market.

Reich is said by OAS sources to have had \'a number of meetings with Carmona and other leaders of the coup\' over several months. The coup was discussed in some detail, right down to its timing and chances of success, which were deemed to be excellent.\"

[Hildog]

[This message has been edited by Hildog (edited 04-22-2002).]

[Hildog]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wacky:
Does anyone remember the \"put\" options on American and United Airlines on September 9th?

If you do research, some of the options were put through a finacial firm managed by a guy named A.B. \"Buzzy\" Krongard who is currently the exectutive director of the CIA.

Don\'t believe me?

http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/press_release/archives/2001/pr03162001.html (\"http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/press_release/archives/2001/pr03162001.html\")

\"A longtime consultant to DCIs, Mr. Krongard joined the Agency full time in February, 1998 following an extraordinary 29-year business career. During his private sector career he served as Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the Board of Alex.Brown Incorporated, the nation’s oldest investment banking firm, and Vice Chairman of the Board of Bankers Trust.\"
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/2001/09/24/FFX325EQXRC.html (\"http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/2001/09/24/FFX325EQXRC.html\")

\"Three trading days before the attack, the volume of puts in United rocketed to an astonishing 285 times the average trading level. The day before, two American Airlines planes were crashed, the number of put options bought in the airline rose to reach 60 times the daily average.\"
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=99402 (\"http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=99402\")

\"Further details of the futures trades that netted such huge gains in the wake of the hijackings have been disclosed. To the embarrassment of investigators, it has also emerged that the firm used to buy many of the \"put\" options – where a trader, in effect, bets on a share price fall – on United Airlines stock was headed until 1998 by \"Buzzy\" Krongard, now executive director of the CIA.

Until 1997, Mr Krongard was chairman of Alex Brown Inc, America\'s oldest investment banking firm. Alex Brown was acquired by Bankers Trust, which in turn was bought by Deutsche Bank. His last post before resigning to take his senior role in the CIA was to head Bankers Trust – Alex Brown\'s private client business, dealing with the accounts and investments of wealthy customers around the world.\"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4293682,00.html (\"http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4293682,00.html\")

\"FBI and military intelligence officials in Washington say they were prevented for political reasons from carrying out full investigations into members of the Bin Laden family in the US before the terrorist attacks of September 11\"

http://baltimorechronicle.com/media3_oct01.shtml (\"http://baltimorechronicle.com/media3_oct01.shtml\")


[This message has been edited by Wacky (edited 04-20-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, you got my attention...

But disinformation still comes from all sides. Despite the all-but allegations here, there are a couple of things only asked and left unanswered by a couple of these articles. That Guardian paper especially. I\'ve never been a big admirer of them. They are quite good at implying things, but are amazingly light on facts when convenient, as if to say, \"Here\'s what we found out, now fill in the blanks yourself and draw your own conslusions.\"

The CIA press release is pretty cut-and-dried. So Buzzy Korngold now works for the CIA and used to work for Alex Brown - the oldest investment firm in the country - I\'ll bet you they have a lot of clients - I\'ll bet you that they have a lot of clients who are current or ex-politicians that are not associated with the current or former Bush administrations. Does anyone know what investment banking firm holds the largest number of clients who happen to be ex-presidents or ex-cabinet members ?

Also, it\'s been 5 years since he worked for them...what were the circumstances of his departure ? Who\'s better suited to act as COO of the CIA (or any other organization) than a former investment banker (seriously) ?

What percentage of the puts were handled by Alex Brown ? The independent.co.uk states:
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=99402 (\"http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=99402\")

\"\"it has also emerged that the firm used to buy many of the \"put\" options – where a trader, in effect, bets on a share price fall – on United Airlines stock was headed until 1998 by \"Buzzy\" Krongard, now executive director of the CIA.\"

Well how many is \"many\" ? 5 ? 10 ? 1000 ?That\'s too vague for my taste. What was the percentage ? This is exactly what I\'m talking about...by being non-specific like this, they can imply any thing they like.

\"Between 6 and 7 September, the Chicago Board Options Exchange saw purchases of 4,744 \"put\" option contracts in UAL versus 396 call options – where a speculator bets on a price rising. Holders of the put options would have netted a profit of $5m (£3.3m) once the carrier\'s share price dived after 11 September. On 10 September, more trading in Chicago saw the purchase of 4,516 put options in American Airlines, the other airline involved in the hijackings. This compares with a mere 748 call options in American purchased that day. Investigators cannot help but notice that no other airlines saw such trading in their put options.

It was not just airlines that were targeted by remarkably canny investors. One of the biggest occupants of the World Trade Centre was Morgan Stanley, the investment bank. In the first week of September, an average of 27 put option contracts was bought each day in its shares. The total for the three days before the attacks was 2,157. Merrill Lynch, anotherWTC tenant, saw 12,215 put options bought in the four days before the attacks, when the previous days had seen averages of 252 contracts a day.\"

Okay, so there\'s some numbers. Now how many of those were actually handled by Alex Brown ? Conveniently, they don\'t say - but by saying \" [the] firm used to buy many of the \"put\" options\" and then listing some numbers and not relating the two to each other AT ALL - they leave the reader to draw his own conclusions - it pisses me off when the press does this and they do it all the time when they don\'t have the full story. They think that people are just going to take what they have to say at face value without thinking about what\'s actually being said.

So FBI and military intelligence were prevented (since 1996 - way before the Bush regime) from investigating the Bin Laden family - yet later in the article it states:

\"Only after the September 11 attacks was the stance of political and commercial closeness reversed towards the other members of the large Bin Laden clan\"

This seems perfectly appropriate to me - well, the part about lifting the investigation restrictions. As for why they were restricted in the first place, who put the restrictions in place in 1996 ? Bill Clinton ? Janet Reno ? George Tenet ?

Okay, the Carlyle stuff should probably be looked at - but as far as I can tell, from what you\'ve shown here, nothing illegal has taken place...this kind of thing *definitely* happens in every administration. Not that I\'m saying that makes it right...

I\'m not trying to refute anything you\'re saying here...I\'m just saying that there are different ways of looking at the same material. A lot of this stuff, especially from the Guardian, is open to a wide range of interpretation.


[This message has been edited by Hildog (edited 04-22-2002).]

[franz]

hi this is goerge bsuh,
i have read this threat and i got to tell you, i don\'t understand any of it. but i will say this, i am a black chinese catholic jewish muslim from texas whose brain was replaced by windows 95. that bill guy should send me a free upgrade soon. i\'m already suing his *** . oops, got to go, the wife wants my evil axis.

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hildog:
That Guardian paper especially. I\'ve never been a big admirer of them. They are quite good at implying things, but are amazingly light on facts when convenient, as if to say, \"Here\'s what we found out, now fill in the blanks yourself and draw your own conslusions.\"...

...A lot of this stuff, especially from the Guardian, is open to a wide range of interpretation.


[This message has been edited by Hildog (edited 04-22-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hildog is spot on about The Guardian.

I admire Nick for what he\'s doing, but to keep some perspective here, I can give you some first-hand experience with The Guardian.

I used to work as a currency strategist supplying analysis and info to investment banks, etc. During the Asian currency crash (and before - because the \'forwards\' markets were showing a lot of action), I covered Asia.

The Guardian interviewed me for a front page story. While I was tickled to be the only analyst consulted in a major story, to say they \"misquoted\" me would be an understament.

Previous to that I had worked as a journalist and I was always very punctilious about making sure that what someone had said was actually what they meant. I used to call people and run the story by them. I didn\'t feel I was in the business of embarrassing people (and I covered finance mostly, with politics related only to how politics \'impacted\' markets; not to catch anyone getting blowjobs etc.) In finance, as in any other sector, if you really want to get the good stuff, you should provide some protection to your sources.

They did not misqote me. What they did was use my quotes completely out of context. I could feel it in the interview, but hoped that they\'d \'do their journalistsic duty\' (maybe they were just covering all the angles?)

But no. The story was obviously pre-written, and I was portarayed as the guy with \'insider info\' (by the way; it is ALL insider info in the markets; they dilineate these things when they decide someone\'s snout is too deeply in the trough and he gets thrown to the wolves - we had tons of info before it was released and we used to phone certain individuals in a pyramid, so that our \'friends\' were taking profit into the latecomers - but I digress).

But they left out everything that I thought I was actually saying. They, in effect, said the opposite. It was a beautiful piece of work; the way they turned everything into a \'front page story\' rather than reporting what the thing was really about (and they potentially put me in danger from a certain headcase who runs Malaysia - what I\'d say to journalists was different from what I\'d say to currency traders for reasons more than just the fact that it was my job to steer them in the right direction).

It was disgraceful. In fact, I was quoted on a daily basis for a short while in what people would describe as \'qualities\' in the UK, and I\'d say that at least fifty percent of the time the journalist got it wrong. Sometimes they were just \'thick\'; others they were deliberately trying to \'push\' their story to make it more dramatic. And this was in boring old finance. God knows what happens in the more \'glamorous\' beats.

But I\'d say to Nick that I don\'t doubt he\'s onto something here, but the key is to absolutely make sure that everying is verified and verifiable. A single mistake will get you discredited and relegated to the rank of \'crank\' by the very type of journalistsic gusto I\'ve touched on here.

If you want to make anything at all happen, you need a team. You need a great researcher. You need someone who can spin it with the best of them. But most of all you need (and this is an unfortunate reflection on American society) you need a celebrity. You need a big, fat, famous member of the US royal family to spoon feed the masses. You probably also need a heavyweight journalist with unblemished integrity (they do exist) to convince the celebrity that he or she is not making an arse of him or herself.

Good luck with this.

[Wacky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hildog:


I\'m not trying to refute anything you\'re saying here...I\'m just saying that there are different ways of looking at the same material. A lot of this stuff, especially from the Guardian, is open to a wide range of interpretation.


[This message has been edited by Hildog (edited 04-22-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awareness - that is all I ask from American Citizens and the American Media. If there is nothing to hide, why won\'t the American Media educate the public on these facts? The part that really freaks me out is that these facts are not being considered by the anyone (NYT, WashPost, Senate, House) right now. You can sure as well bet that if The Taliban had met with Clinton\'s business interests in 1997 the media would have been all over it. Something stinks. We are being lied to. What else could possibly explain the difference in media coverage between the U.S. and the rest of the world?

But I agree with you. Maybe it is not as sinister as it seems. There are many explanations for the above facts. But how many conicidences make a conspriacy? Take Ockaham\'s Razor which states that the simplest explanation is the correct one. If we use this standard and try to call everything a coincidence, we end up looking like idiots. I am not a paranoid person, but I am not stupid either. The coincidences (if that is what they are) need to be investigated. We need to be able to trust our government in times of war. It may seem funny, but I fear George W. Bush much more than Bin Laden. Bin Laden doesn\'t scare me in the least but I don\'t trust this administration. I would much rather risk death by Jihad before I would risk America under the Patriot Act.

Have you read 1984 lately? Do you remember the concept of the \"perpetual war for perpetual peace?\" Do you remeber Goldman? Do you remeber the 10 minutes of hate? Have you listened to some of the quotes coming out of Cheney and Rumsfeld lately?

www.democraticunderground.com (\"http://www.democraticunderground.com\")



[This message has been edited by Wacky (edited 04-23-2002).]

[noenoeil]

While I\'m at it (OT domain) :
--------------------------------------------------------
posted by noenoeil 04-16-2002 09:41 AM \"Our political system is sick too, anyway.\"
--------------------------------------------------------
Was I right or what?
Sorry for the noise, but I\'m disgusted.
This is not my France.

[This message has been edited by noenoeil (edited 04-23-2002).]

[noenoeil]

disregard

[This message has been edited by noenoeil (edited 04-23-2002).]

[Nick Phoenix]

\"Stupid White Men\" Stays at #1 on NY Times List, 4 Weeks in a Row
4/15/02

Dear Friends,

I woke up in Tampa, Florida, yesterday, picked up the Sunday newspaper,
and there it was: the New York Times today had declared that, for the
fourth week in a row, \"Stupid White Men\" is the #1 book in the country.
I am out of explanations at this point as to how this thing has stayed
atop on the Times bestseller list for a month. I\'ve been informed that
the book is now in its 19th printing. Also, it remains #1 in Canada, and

it has gone to #1 this week in Britain and Ireland, according to the
Sunday Times of London.

All this has occurred in spite of a virtual press blackout on the book.
Or maybe because of it. The more the book is ignored by the media, the
better it does. So, if you are a newspaper editor or a TV producer,
PLEASE do NOT pay any attention to this book! Just because more
Americans are reading it than any other book in the country for the past

month should NOT persuade you to ask crazy questions of yourselves like,

\"How can this be happening when the \'President\' has the highest approval

ratings ever?\" Just concern yourselves with repeating your mantra of the

past 7 months - \"America Loves Bush! America Loves Bush!\" It\'s a
comforting mantra, one that seems to bring you solace at a time of
journalistic confusion. It\'s also simple and easy to repeat - and it
means that you don\'t have to go out and do the work you are supposed to
do (like rooting out the Enron-backed criminals in the White House or
finding out what really happened before and after September 11th ).

The front page of the Tampa Tribune yesterday was all ablaze with the
news about the convention of Florida\'s Democrats on Saturday in Orlando.

There was a color photo of a smiling, waving Al Gore. Lieberman was
there and so was Kerry and a host of other stars of the Democratic
Party. About 2,500 Floridians were in attendance.

But in Tampa, on that same night, I was looking out from the stage at
the Sun Dome at a crowd of nearly 7,000 people who had come to the
\"Democracy Rising\" rally organized by Ralph Nader. Tampa has now
produced the largest crowd of the book tour (I signed the 2000th book of

the evening somewhere around 2am). This is 3 times the crowd that the
Democrats got and, again, there is virtually no coverage.

But remember - it NO LONGER MATTERS that most of the media ignores the
real news. It no longer matters because much of the media has chosen to
make itself irrelevant through its lazy reporting, sleazy presentation,
its obedience to the corporate agenda, and all the blowhard pundits who
scream out their useless opinions. A political shift has occurred in the

country and the media has completely missed it. We have become a nation
where the majority of citizens are very liberal and progressive on the
issues. The majority of Americans now call themselves pro-environment,
pro-choice, pro-labor, and anti-Big Business. 154 million out of the 200

million voters in this country did NOT cast a vote for George W. Bush.
That is the America in which we now live. Liberal, progressive, and sick

of the stupid white men who run the country.

Hey, here\'s something that you haven\'t seen on the Fox Nuisance Channel
- there are now over 140 college campuses in the U.S. with an active
student Green organization. The Green kids in Florida are everywhere and

their numbers are among the largest. You wouldn\'t think so, not after
the blame that was heaped on the Greens for causing Gore to \"lose\"
Florida. But they are building a mass movement, and the turnout I saw in

Tampa was proof to me that there is a ruckus afoot in America, and if
it\'s rockin\' in a place like central Florida, then it\'s happening just
down the street from where you live.

The Democrats could have stopped this. They could have spent the past
two years fighting to raise the minimum wage or to lower the amount of
pollutants spewed into the air or to call for a Special Prosecutor to
investigate Bush and Enron.

But, no. The Democrats have spent their time trying to act like
Republicans, thinking that\'s how they will win back the House this
November. Note to Democrats: You will not win the House by being your
usual weak, lame-o selves. The Greens will deny you the chance you have
had to take charge. Until you get a clue, the Greens will thrive and
grow. You want to avoid a repeat of 2000? Fight for the working people
of this country! You want to stop the Greens? Act like a real Democrat!
Stand up for something! Do the math: A couple of thousand in Orlando
come to see the stars of the Democratic Party, while, at the same exact
moment, nearly three times that number is in Tampa to cheer on a
progressive agenda - which is greater? If the Democrats can\'t add 2+2,
then they are doomed.

I should also mention that Tampa is the command headquarters for the war

on Afghanistan. It\'s all done via remote control from the comfort of
Florida\'s beautiful Gulf coast. How many civilians have we killed now? I

believe the last number I read, it was more than the civilians who died
on September 11th. Oh, I know the Bush boys over at Macdill Air Force
Base have their rationalization as to why, in wartime, sometimes
civilians have to die. The terrorists of 9-11 had their
rationalizations, too. Everybody\'s got their rationalizations. Well,
here\'s mine - there is NO rationalization for the killing of other human

beings except in the rare and extreme cases of true self-defense.

Today is the beginning of National Library Week. As many of you know by
now, it was a single librarian who saved my book from the corporate
shredder. In the next day or so, I will send you another letter telling
you about what she did and what you can do to support the libraries of
this country.

Thanks again to everyone for your support. I\'m in Oklahoma City and
Norman, Oklahoma, tonight (4/15). I head to Canada to the University of
Toronto tomorrow night (Tuesday), and I\'ll be in the Northwest later in
the week. Hope to see many of you there.

Yours,

Michael Moore
Author
Filmmaker
Detroit Tigers fan
http://www.michaelmoore.com (\"http://www.michaelmoore.com\")

Write me at:
stupidwhitemen@aol.com

[Wacky]

Nick

I saw Micheal Moore at Town Hall in Seattle yesterday. He was fantastic.

We are not alone - no matter what the media tells us.

[This message has been edited by Wacky (edited 04-23-2002).]

[SOD213]

\"In Speech, Bush Calls Iraq, Iran and North Korea \'Axis of Evil\'\" -- N.Y. Times, 1/30

Beijing, Friday: Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the \"Axis of Evil,\" Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the \"Axis of Just as Evil,\" which they said would be way eviler than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of his State of the Union address.

Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as having, for starters, a really dumb name. \"Right. They are Just as Evil... in their dreams!\" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. \"Everybody knows we\'re the best evils...best at being evil...we\'re the best.

\"Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded, although they conceded they did ask if they could join the \"Axis of Evil.\" \"They told us it was full,\" said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. \"An Axis can\'t have more than three countries,\" explained Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. \"This is not my rule, it\'s tradition. In World War II you had Germany, Italy, and Japan in the evil Axis. So you can only have three. And a secret handshake. Ours is wicked cool.\"

THE AXIS PANDEMIC: International reaction to Bush\'s \"Axis of Evil\" declaration was swift, as within minutes, France surrendered.

Elsewhere, peer-conscious nations rushed to gain triumvirate status in what became a game of geopolitical chairs. Cuba, Sudan, and Serbia said they had formed the \"Axis of Somewhat Evil,\" forcing Somalia to join with Uganda and Myanmar in the \"Axis of Occasionally Evil,\" while Bulgaria, Indonesia and Russia established the \"Axis of Not So Much Evil Really As Just Generally Disagreeable.\"

With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs filling up, Sierra Leone, El Salvador, and Rwanda applied to be called the \"Axis of Countries That Aren\'t the Worst But Certainly Won\'t Be Asked to Host the Olympics;\" Canada, Mexico, and Australia formed the \"Axis of Nations That Are Actually Quite Nice But Secretly Have Nasty Thoughts About America,\" while Spain, Scotland, and New Zealand established the \"Axis of Countries That Be Allowed to Ask Sheep to Wear Lipstick.\" \"That\'s not a threat, really, just something we like to do,\" said Scottish Executive First Minister Jack McConnell.

While wondering if the other nations of the world weren\'t perhaps making fun of him, a cautious Bush granted approval for most axes, although he rejected the establishment of the \"Axis of Countries Whose Names End in \'Guay,\'\" accusing one of its members of filing a false application. Officials from Paraguay, Uruguay, and Gigaguay denied the charges.

Israel, meanwhile, insisted it didn\'t want to join any Axis, but privately, world leaders said that\'s only because no one asked them.

[ryounger]

Well somebody has to take the opposition on this nonsense. Nick, it seems like you are for more government and less personal freedom. Wake up to the real issues. After 9/11 the real evil are things like the patriot bill that strips us citizens of their basic freedom. Our personal freedom is being traded in for a false sense of security. You try to blame the scandals of the past 40 years on the GOP, yet you forget about all of the scandals that the Democrats have been involved in. By the way, don\'t you support big corporations by making movie trailers for big movie studios? Oh yes, there are evil corporations that are run by Democrats also. You would love to pin Enron on the GOP, but the truth is that both political parties took money from Enron. I know that you think that collage students are in the know, but many collage students are just sheep, looking for something to rebel against. Here’s a thought, the federal government needs to shrink dramatically, taxes need to be lowered, and the people should enjoy the freedom that our forefathers of this country have given us. By the way, maybe you should listen to Bill O\'reilly on Fox News.

Russ

[Nick Phoenix]

Ryounger,
Whoa, sounds like an episode of Crossfire. You got me all wrong. First of all, I am a registered Green. I think the system, with lobbyists etc. is the problem. Democrats are almost worse than Republicans because they talk one way and act another. Most republican politicians are crazy and make no bones about it. \"I am a crazy racist pig, and if you value your guns and are against abortion, vote for me!\" (these are pathetic things to base your vote on, by the way.) I am not picking on the Republican party as much as taking issue with George W.\'s team. The same old crusty bunch of insane oil men that have been behind dozens of well documented scandals over the years. Once again, you have not addressed the FACTS that I have presented.

AND, I cannot say this strongly enough!!!!!!-
If, you listen to Fox News, you are woefully uninformed and there is probably no hope for you. But, you may change your mind on things, when your retirement accounts get emptied by another company with close Bush ties.

But, in all truth, I do hate the Republicans more than the Democrats.

Here is a question and see if it is within you to be honest about the answer. If Clinton had had close ties with Enron and was our current president, don\'t you think that there would already be an investigation underway?

YES, its true that the Patriot act is extremely dangerous document. It relates directly to the events of 9/11 and was created by the same Republican criminals that are stealing this country from us. Wake up and start reading!

[Mel Tron]

A Canadian Perspective:

1st your Top Guns nail and kill 4 Canadian soldiers and wound several more in Afghanistan (bet you didn\'t know we were even there)

Then you have the audacity to BOO our National Anthem at the NHL and NBA playoffs.

To add insult to injury we have to breathe your air which accounts for over 60% of our air pollution!

Piss on Bush and his team of crapshooters.And Piss on Corporate America.

[Wacky]

Originally posted by ryounger:
Well somebody has to take the opposition on this nonsense. Nick, it seems like you are for more government and less personal freedom. Wake up to the real issues. After 9/11 the real evil are things like the patriot bill that strips us citizens of their basic freedom. Our personal freedom is being traded in for a false sense of security. You try to blame the scandals of the past 40 years on the GOP, yet you forget about all of the scandals that the Democrats have been involved in. By the way, don\'t you support big corporations by making movie trailers for big movie studios? Oh yes, there are evil corporations that are run by Democrats also. You would love to pin Enron on the GOP, but the truth is that both political parties took money from Enron. I know that you think that collage students are in the know, but many collage students are just sheep, looking for something to rebel against. Here’s a thought, the federal government needs to shrink dramatically, taxes need to be lowered, and the people should enjoy the freedom that our forefathers of this country have given us. By the way, maybe you should listen to Bill O\'reilly on Fox News.

Russ<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Russ

I think I speak for Nick when I say that we couldn\'t agree with you more on your criticism of the Patriot Act. Being a rabid fan of Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine and Samual Adams I think there is no greater immediate danger to ourselves, our families and our country than the Patriot Act. I consider the cowards who advocated it, voted for and are currently using it traitors. Again it is NOT Osama I fear, it is Ashcroft, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld and the unchecked power, unprecendented in American History, that they wield.

BUT, although I agree that large Government can be and historically has been a vehicle of oppression, it is the right-wing who fails to understand that we have turned a corner. The issues we are facing today are unprecedented. Corporatism/Facism is the marriage of the Government and Private Industry. Like no other time in American History the people who run the Government and Private Industry are the SAME. Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush (although a buisness failure), James Baker, George Bush Sr., Jeb Bush were ALL business partners with Ken Lay in Texas. The **** is 10 layers thick.

Furthermore, Corporations are fundamentally undemocratic. They are not checked by ANYONE. ALL our founding fathers, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and FDR all understood this. The more Corporations hijack our government the less democratic our government becomes, the more power conglomerates in few hands, the more corrupt the people who wield the power become and the more freedoms we lose.

Take Drug Testing. You may argue that one has a choice to not work for a company who Drug Tests. I say - what happens when all companies decide to Drug Test? What happens when a corporation claims that the result of your drug test becomes a \"corporate asset\" (like your marketing information is a \"corporate asset\") and decides to sell it.
What happens when companies start requiring a security chip implant in the name of job safety or security:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/011219/190064_1.html (\"http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/011219/190064_1.html\")

Are you willing to give up your freedom to support your family? Are you willing to give up clean water, clean air so that others can make obscene amounts of money? Are you willing to be reduced to a consumer? Are you willing to let the environment be destroyed for profits you nor your family will never see?

The argument from the right ignores the fact that the power wielded by the government is the same power wielded by private industry and it can be just as, or even more opressive.

For example, look at Afganistan. If our theory is correct we are there because of an oil pipeline. Our focus is on oil because the circle of power around Bush is from the oil industry and includes not only American citizens, but foreign nationals. An economy/transporation system based on oil is in many ways not in America\'s best interest because of the environmental damage it does. Hybrid, clean technologies would reduce our dependency on foreign oil, thereby reducing our need for military spending, elimnating terroist attacks, as well as reducing the environmental impact fossil fuels have. Because hybird technologies would shift the locus of power away from the people around Bush, Bush eliminates the focus on these technologies thereby guaranteeing power for him and his circle by increasing our need for oil and increasing our need for military spending.

I used to love the GOP. Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt - even Ike who understood the dangers of the Military Industrial Complex. Unfortunately all we left is the empty shell of credit card conservatives, Tom Delay and the religious right and the Bush Oil Cabal. These people are not patriots but traitors and liars who subvert our constitution and replace it with a theocratically-justified corporate rule.

Rupert Murdoch and Bill O\'reilly have an agenda and it has nothing to do with freedom or democracy.

http://www.foundingfathers.info/stories/images/gadsden-flap.gif (\"http://www.foundingfathers.info/stories/images/gadsden-flap.gif\")

[Wacky]

Surprise, surprise, surprise:

\"Rebuilding Afghanistan is an issue of economics. Underneath the devastated infrastructure and harsh soil of this landlocked, war-torn nation is oil, and lots of it. The global war on terrorism brought stability and peace to this dangerous part of the world. But is the energy industry, and Washington, expecting something in return? Tonight, the first of two broadcasts on the oil reserves of Central Asia. \"

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/business/DailyNews/newmideast_020424.html (\"http://abcnews.go.com/sections/business/DailyNews/newmideast_020424.html\")

\"Estimates for the oil reserves beneath this landlocked sea range from 35 billion barrels up to an optimistic 300 billion barrels. At the high end, that\'s more oil than even Saudi Arabia\'s 260 billion barrel reserve, and half as much as the entire Middle East. And while few analysts expect the Caspian to truly challenge the Middle East, its crude is already seen as shifting the global oil dynamics.\"

\"Just last December, Colin Powell, the current secretary of state, described the oil reserves in Kazakhstan as being of \"critical importance\" to Western energy consumers in the near future.\"

\"Caspian oil may eventually be as important to the industrialized world as Middle Eastern oil is today,\" declared former U.S. Secretary of State James Baker several years ago.\"

http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/caspianoil_afghan103/index.html (\"http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/caspianoil_afghan103/index.html\")

[Nick Phoenix]

Whats even more amazing, is the fact the government just found out about the oil yesterday. What a revelation and lucky coincidence! The congressional hearings about the oil, held in \'97, were actually conducted by aliens posing as members of congress.

Maybe people can\'t handle the truth. What about you? Can you justify murder and worldwide terror to maintain your standard of living? Or will you DEMAND an investigation into 9/11?

[Nick Phoenix]

3 Members of congress demand an investigation into 9/11.

go to http://www.truthout.com/poll/911Probe.htm (\"http://www.truthout.com/poll/911Probe.htm\")

and cast your vote.

[Nick Phoenix]

MESSAGE FOR DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS (Their email/fax contacts are below):

U.S. Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney is a hero for standing up for the concerns of millions of Americans. A recent Atlanta Journal Constitution poll showed that nearly 50% of Americans believe that Bush had
\"PRE-knowledge\" of 9-11 terror, and let it happen.\"
> Do we not deserve a voice in Congress? Please do what is right and stand
by Rep. McKinney in this dark hour when dissent in this country is met with
media lynching and despicable character assassination. Let this be the
point in history where Democrats and greens finally defended the right of dissent,
and the need for inquiry into 9-11, how it happened, what Bush knew, and when
he knew it.
>
> Full length documentaries on this are showing in Europe and Canada.
Why must America be \"protected\" from a wide discussion of what went wrongonand
before 9-11? The answer is \"we don\'t\" and it is your duty to ask questions.
History will look very poorly on timidity by the opposition party, because in this age of information the truth is out, and it will be known by all in a matter of months.
>
> Thank you in advance for doing what is right and standing by your fellow
Congressperson U.S. Representative Cynthia McKinney (D-GA).

> January 29, 2002 Posted: 9:26 PM EST (0226 GMT)
> WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush personally asked Senate Majority
Leader
> Tom Daschle Tuesday to limit the congressional investigation into the
events
> of September 11, congressional and White House sources told CNN. The
request
> was made at a private meeting with congressional leaders Tuesday
morning.
> Sources said Bush initiated the conversation.
>
>
> ***************************************
> HOUSE EMAILS/FAX NUMBERS -- NOTE: these are all Democratic House
Members:
>
> Neil.Abercrombie@mail.house.gov, Anibal@mail.house.gov,
> gary_ackerman@mail.house.gov, jay.inslee@mail.house.gov,
> rick.larsen@mail.house.gov, brian.baird@mail.house.gov,
> adam.smith@mail.house.gov, senator@boxer.senate.gov,
> lynn.woolsey@mail.house.gov, George.Miller@mail.house.gov,
> sf.nancy@mail.house.gov, barbara.lee@mail.house.gov,
budmail@mail.house.gov,
> budmail@mail.house.gov, snyder.congress@mail.house.gov,
> faleomavaega@mail.house.gov, ed.pastor@mail.house.gov,
> democratic.caucus@mail.house.gov, lynn.woolsey@mail.house.gov,
> zoegram@lofgren.house.gov, samfarr@mail.house.gov,
> gary.condit@mail.house.gov, lois.capps@mail.house.gov,
> brad.sherman@mail.house.gov, Howard.Berman@mail.house.gov,
> arcoiris@mail.house.gov, Rep.Harman@mail.house.gov,
> Millender.McDonald@mail.house.gov, talk2geb@mail.house.gov,
> loretta@mail.house.gov, degette@mail.house.gov,
david.skaggs@mail.house.gov,
> Kennelly@mail.house.gov, bozrah@mail.house.gov,
rep.boyd@mail.house.gov,
> thurman@mail.house.gov, pdeutsch.pub@mail.house.gov,
> alcee.pubhastings@mail.house.gov, cymck@mail.house.gov,
> john.lewis@mail.house.gov, guamtodc@mail.house.gov,
> neil.abercrombie@mail.house.gov, leach.ia01@mail.house.gov,
> rep.boswell.ia03@mail.house.gov, bobby.rush@mail.house.gov,
> luis.gutierrez@mail.house.gov, danny.davis@mail.house.gov,
> sidney.yates@mail.house.gov, jfc.il12@mail.house.gov,
> lane.evans@mail.house.gov, tim.roemer@mail.house.gov,
> in09.wyr@housemail.house.gov, rep.carson@mail.house.gov,
> john.olver@mail.house.gov, jim.mcgovern@mail.house.gov,
> mtmeehan@mail.house.gov, joe.moakley@mail.house.gov,
> william.delahunt@mail.house.gov, rep.cardin@mail.house.gov,
> rep.tomallen@mail.house.gov, stupak@mail.house.gov,
> jim.barcia-pub@mail.house.gov, debbie.stabenow@mail.house.gov,
> dkildee@mail.house.gov, david.bonior@mail.house.gov,
slevin@mail.house.gov,
> john.conyers@mail.house.gov, martin.sabo@mail.house.gov,
> tell.bill@mail.house.gov, tocollin.peterson@mail.house.gov,
> oberstar@mail.house.gov, gephardt@mail.house.gov,
> ike.skelton@mail.house.gov, thompsonms2nd@mail.house.gov,
> gene.taylor@mail.house.gov, EClayton1@mail.house.gov,
> bob.etheridge@mail.house.gov, david.price@mail.house.gov,
> CongMcIntyre@mail.house.gov, nc12.public@mail.house.gov,
> Rep.Earl.Pomeroy@mail.house.gov, rob.andrews@mail.house.gov,
> bill.pascrell@mail.house.gov, steven.rothman@mail.house.gov,
> thomas.manton@mail.house.gov, jerrold.nadler@mail.house.gov,
> major.owens@mail.house.gov, rep.carolyn.maloney@mail.house.gov,
> rangel@mail.house.gov, jserrano@mail.house.gov,
mike.mcnulty@mail.house.gov,
> mhinchey@mail.house.gov, louiseny@mail.house.gov,
mike.oxley@mail.house.gov,
> ted.strickland@mail.house.gov, rep.kaptur@mail.house.gov,
> sherrod@mail.house.gov, telljim@mail.house.gov,
> rep.elizabeth.furse@mail.house.gov, write.earl@mail.house.gov,
> peter.defazio@mail.house.gov, darlene@mail.house.gov,
> paul.kanjorski@mail.house.gov, murtha@mail.house.gov,
mchale@mail.house.gov,
> rep.doyle@mail.house.gov, robert.weygand@mail.house.gov,
> jclyburn@mail.house.gov, bob.clement@mail.house.gov,
> bart.gordon@mail.house.gov, john.tanner@mail.house.gov,
hford@hr.house.gov,
> max.sandlin@mail.house.gov, rmhall@mail.house.gov,
> nick.lampson@mail.house.gov, lloyd.doggett@mail.house.gov,
> Rep.Hinojosa@mail.house.gov, silvestre.reyes@mail.house.gov,
> tx18@lee.house.gov, texas17@mail.house.gov,
martin.frost@mail.house.gov,
> ken.bentsen@mail.house.gov, ask.gene@mail.house.gov,
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[Nick Phoenix]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:
[qb]Hey Nick and Wacky.
Yeah nothing like a good ol’ political debate. Like you Nick I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat, but I am a registered Libertarian (conservative). Being that I must say that I agree with you that abortion should not be a political issue, neither should burring the American flag or any other stupid thing that detracts our leaders from tackling the real issues that our country faces.
The real problem is that you make out that corporate power is new thing. They have influenced our country since the NYSE started. There is just no way to reduce their power, unless the government took total control of the economy. Remember the USSR? Big business is as American as apple pie and McDonalds. Like I said before there have been liberals who have owned corporations, and there have been major political players in government and big business that have been on the left. Two families that come to mind are the Rockefeller’s and the Kennedy’s.

Nicks ANSWER: It\'s true big buisiness has always been behind our economy, but we HAD laws to keep them in check. Starting with Reagan, these laws have been destroyed. the recent COMPLETE takeover of our government by corporations is a direct result of things like deregulation. So, your argument of less government does not hold up in this area!!!
END ANSWER.

Here are some of my thoughts:

“If, you listen to Fox News, you are woefully uninformed and there is probably no hope for you. But, you may change your mind on things, when your retirement accounts get emptied by another company with close Bush ties.”

What evidence do you have that FOX News is any different than lets say CNN or NBC? To me, they look no different than any other sect of the mainstream press.

Nick\'s ANSWER: Almost true! Rupert Murdoch owns FOX and has openly said that he feels it is his job to combat the liberal media out there and try to offset this. So, what you get is a very right point of view fed to you in a skillful manipulative way. CNN and the rest have become pretty useless, but FOX takes the cake. Its more than useless.
END ANSWER.

“Here is a question and see if it is within you to be honest about the answer. If Clinton had had close ties with Enron and was our current president, don\'t you think that there would already be an investigation underway?”

You know, I really did give this question some thought. I must say that on the surface it looks as though Clinton was more heavily involved with Whitewater than Bush is with Enron. I could be wrong, but the difference seems to be that there were plenty of Democrats that took political contributions from Enron. Remember that the Republicans aren’t the only ones who own corporations.

Nick\'s ANSWER:

Your answer reeks of FOX manipulation. Enron is a much more important and far reaching scandal than whitewater and Bushes ties are direct and irrefutable. Just because Democrats took money too (about 10% doesn\'t excuse anybody)

To Wacky

“Furthermore, Corporations are fundamentally undemocratic. They are not checked by ANYONE. ALL our founding fathers, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and FDR all understood this. The more Corporations hijack our government the less democratic our government becomes, the more power conglomerates in few hands, the more corrupt the people who wield the power become and the more freedoms we lose.”

I disagree. Big business is what drives this nation’s economy. If we didn’t have corporations, we would not be the World’s largest economic and political power. I would agree that the small businessman in this country has a hard time because there is no safety net. That is one reason that I was tempted to vote for Ralph Nader. In a true democracy people have the right to an abortion, right to light up a cigarette, and right to have a business that can be no limit in size. Success is definitely welcome in a democeracy.

Nick\'sANSWER:

Once again FOX has manipulated you. What you say is partially true, but most of the money being made is going more and more to the rich elite. This is what Bush embodies. He wants to make the richest even richer. He doesn\'t give a damn about anybody else. This is so clear and yet people don\'t want to admit it, out of some curious loyalty to the Republican party. The democrats aren\'t much better, but a little. And what do you get from these corporations?-- some great products, but tons of crappy products and poisinous food.
END ANSWER.

“Take Drug Testing”

No thanks, I think it should go under “Illegal search and seizure”
“Are you willing to give up your freedom to support your family? Are you willing to give up clean water, clean air so that others can make obscene amounts of money? Are you willing to be reduced to a consumer? Are you willing to let the environment be destroyed for profits you nor your family will never see?”

Everybody wants clean water and air, but not everybody wants scare tactics to try co convince the American public of a safety that isn’t there. The extreme environmentalists don’t want us to drive trucks, use multiple computers (Gigastudio) or even mow our lawns. (two cycle engines produce lots of pollution) By the way, do you have a retirement plan? By your logic, I don’t see you making very much money if you have nothing to invest in.

Nick\'s ANSWER:

There are so many ways to clean up our environment that would not be very costly. Corporations resist because these methods are not their forte and scare them. You need government to facilitate this. CASE AND POINT: Texas had 600 gross poluters. After pressure was apllied, Bush ordered them to clean up their act, but at the last minute made the new regulations OPTIONAL!!!!!! Out of 600. only one cleaned up their act, the other 599 got worse!!!!! Thats reality!
END ANSWER.

[Wacky]

Russ

Good points. I respect Libertarianism passionately because I believe it is far more consistant than \"Reaganism\" as defined below. I even consider myself a Libertarian (with a socialist bent).

The thing you are missing is the fact that I, nor I doubt Nick, are not anti-corporate. I believe that market forces have been the engine for our unprecedented standard of living, our advances in health care and probably are the greatest hope our world has for eliminating poverty.

But I am for a tightly regulated market. Why? Without regulations the market consumes itself. The end game of capitalism is monopoly. If you are the best at the \"game\" you eliminate the competition and you are the only one left standing. Thus the market disappears and you alone are left to dictate (intentional choice of word) the prices, terms and regulation to consumers and the labor market. We end up with Wiggen Pier circa 1880 - i.e. NO INNOVATION, violent eliminations of labor protests, child labor, no job safety, universal random drug testing and the \"company store\".

I find it amusing how market advocates argue for gigantic corporate monopolies when these abstract legal structures in fact destroy the market. What passes for \"conservative\" these days is actually nothing but an apology for an anti-democratic, anti-market, nation- transcendent, consolidation of power.

Please note that I do understand the dangers of regulation which, I might add, differ radically from the line commonly spouted by \"conservative\" zealots. I bet you were not aware that much regulation is secretly advocated by large corporations because these regulations make it impossible for smaller, less financially stable upstarts to enter markets. Some governmental regulations actually destroy markets by favoring monopolies.

So in addition to believing in a tightly regulated market, I believe that these regulations must be SMART and applied evenly so that market competition may flourish.

Furthermore, the larger and more powerful a corporation becomes the harder it is to eliminate the market niche that company holds even when that market is transcended by new technology or made obsolete by other factors. The nature of markets are that they are created and destroyed. They are constantly in flux. Unfortunately this natural selection has bad implications for profit margins. So what you find is large corporations quashing and destroying new technologies and markets instead of embracing them.

Take oil. The Bush oil Cabal has eliminated government investment in new hybrid technologies because of the impact these technolgies would have on their profits. If suddenly Americans needed half as much gas their profits would be cut in half. Also, defense contracters like The Carlyle Group suddenly miss out on $250 BILLION DOLLARS because the United States no longer needs to kill Arabs and other brown skinned people in the Middle East because we have no interest there.

It is in the interest of America to eliminate our dependency on oil - for enivironmental reasons, for consumer reasons and for military reasons (no more of our sons die in the middle east). But it is not in the interest of American Business to eliminate our dependency on oil because this would reduce profit in dying markets and require heavy investment in new ones.

Lastly, profit is not God. To place profit above all else including human lives is fundamentally evil. If nothing else, in certain realms like Health Care, Education, and Water Supply humanity must come first. Human beings have inalienable rights that transcend market theory, profit and governments. When the two are in direct opposition, profit must become priority number two. Even in this Reaganist Era, doing the \"right thing\" is still paramount. Call this flakely, Liberal or stupid but I still believe in transcendant values and I will fight and, if need be, die for them.

\"To widen the market and to narrow the competition is always the interest of the dealers ... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted, till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it.

The Wealth of Nations, Book I Chapter XI

\"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country.\"

— Thomas Jefferson
1812

\"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavour to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.\"

— Abraham Lincoln
1865

\"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to the point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. That in its essence is fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group or any controlling private power.\"

— President Franklin D. Roosevelt

\"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power.\"

— Benito Mussolini
1883-1945
Fascist dictator of Italy

[Wacky]

\"No thanks, I think it should go under “Illegal search and seizure”

So are you saying that it should be illegal for private companies to drug test their employees?

[Wacky]

The best reduction of Reaganism as opposed to conservatism I have read:

http://nytimes.abuzz.com/interaction/s.209352/discussion (\"http://nytimes.abuzz.com/interaction/s.209352/discussion\")

[ryounger]

Hey Nick and Wacky.
Yeah nothing like a good ol’ political debate. Like you Nick I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat, but I am a registered Libertarian (conservative). Being that I must say that I agree with you that abortion should not be a political issue, neither should burning the American flag, smoking or any other stupid thing that detracts our leaders from tackling the real issues that our country faces.
The real problem is that you make out that corporate power is a new thing. They have influenced our country since the NYSE started. There is just no way to reduce their power, unless the government took total control of the economy. Remember the USSR? Big business is as American as apple pie and McDonalds. Like I said before there have been liberals who have owned corporations, and there have been major political players in government and big business that have been on the left. Two families that come to mind are the Rockefeller’s and the Kennedy’s.
Here are some of my thoughts:

“If, you listen to Fox News, you are woefully uninformed and there is probably no hope for you. But, you may change your mind on things, when your retirement accounts get emptied by another company with close Bush ties.”

What evidence do you have that FOX News is any different than lets say CNN or NBC? To me, they look no different than any other sect of the mainstream press.

“Here is a question and see if it is within you to be honest about the answer. If Clinton had had close ties with Enron and was our current president, don\'t you think that there would already be an investigation underway?”

You know, I really did give this question some thought. I must say that on the surface it looks as though Clinton was more heavily involved with Whitewater than Bush is with Enron. I could be wrong, but the difference seems to be that there were plenty of Democrats that took political contributions from Enron. Remember that the Republicans aren’t the only ones who own corporations.

To Wacky

“Furthermore, Corporations are fundamentally undemocratic. They are not checked by ANYONE. ALL our founding fathers, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and FDR all understood this. The more Corporations hijack our government the less democratic our government becomes, the more power conglomerates in few hands, the more corrupt the people who wield the power become and the more freedoms we lose.”

I disagree. Big business is what drives this nation’s economy. If we didn’t have corporations, we would not be the World’s largest economic and political power. I would agree that the small businessman in this country has a hard time because there is no safety net. That is one reason that I was tempted to vote for Ralph Nader. In a true democracy people have the right to an abortion, right to light up a cigarette, and right to have a business that can be no limit in size. Success is definitely welcome in a democeracy.

“Take Drug Testing”

No thanks, I think it should go under “Illegal search and seizure”

“Are you willing to give up your freedom to support your family? Are you willing to give up clean water, clean air so that others can make obscene amounts of money? Are you willing to be reduced to a consumer? Are you willing to let the environment be destroyed for profits you nor your family will never see?”

Everybody wants clean water and air, but not everybody wants scare tactics to try co convince the American public of a safety that isn’t there. The extreme environmentalists don’t want us to drive trucks, use multiple computers (Gigastudio) or even mow our lawns. (two cycle engines produce lots of pollution) By the way, do you have a retirement plan? By your logic, I don’t see you making very much money if you have nothing to invest in.

“The argument from the right ignores the fact that the power wielded by the government is the same power wielded by private industry and it can be just as, or even more opressive.”

I don’t think that corporations run the judicial branch of government.

“For example, look at Afganistan. If our theory is correct we are there because of an oil pipeline. Our focus is on oil because the circle of power around Bush is from the oil industry and includes not only American citizens, but foreign nationals. An economy/transporation system based on oil is in many ways not in America\'s best interest because of the environmental damage it does. Hybrid, clean technologies would reduce our dependency on foreign oil, thereby reducing our need for military spending, elimnating terroist attacks, as well as reducing the environmental impact fossil fuels have. Because hybird technologies would shift the locus of power away from the people around Bush, Bush eliminates the focus on these technologies thereby guaranteeing power for him and his circle by increasing our need for oil and increasing our need for military spending.

I used to love the GOP. Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt - even Ike who understood the dangers of the Military Industrial Complex. Unfortunately all we left is the empty shell of credit card conservatives, Tom Delay and the religious right and the Bush Oil Cabal. These people are not patriots but traitors and liars who subvert our constitution and replace it with a theocratically-justified corporate rule.”

Until our country adopts a safer, efficient, clean, and affordable alternative source of power, our country and every post-industrial nation is very dependent on oil. Without oil our country’s democracy would come to a screeching halt.

“Rupert Murdoch and Bill O\'reilly have an agenda and it has nothing to do with freedom or democracy.”

What agenda is that? I have never seen Rupert Mrudoch, but Bill O’reilly just says it how it is. What exactly is his agenda?

Sorry if it seems like I’m nitpicking, but somebody has to take the other side. Frankly the real issue here is that government needs to be MUCH smaller and taxes need to be lower. At least the corporations are doing their evil with their own money, instead of using mine. By the way, there are some corporations that I don’t give my business to. Walmart comes to mind.

Later
Russ

[Crispin]

Nick and Wacky,

The two of you have both provided me with a source of great relief and hope. Your well worded and carefully researched presentation of facts surrounding the 9-11 incident do you credit.

I just want to say that I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. In fact, the very day it happened I was instantly suspicious. The precise time I became so was when the huge chill ran up my spine as Republican senators stormed into the media fray and victoriously trumpeted the cause of defense spending. A phrase I remember with a sinking feeling: \"We don\'t need more education, we don\'t need more healthcare, WE NEED DEFENSE SPENDING!!!\" From a red faced republican with jowls shaking in righteous fervour. That\'s right, people of America, we want you to stay ignorant and weak while we wield staggering amounts of power with our infinite wisdom.

I didn\'t say anything because at that point I felt it would be profoundly disrespecful to the victims and their kin and also, quite frankly, for fear of being labelled as horribly callous. Truth is, I felt absolutely appalled and awful for the victims of 9-11 and their families and still do.

All the more reason to investigate the situation.

I also feel deep sorrow and pity for the million+ children who have died in Iraq as a result of 10 years worth of economic sanctions. If anyone believes the gulf war was fought for any other reason than oil then they are as sadly ignorant as the Bush Cabal wants them to be.

The oil industry is a cancer on humanity and the earth and our frightening addiction to it continues to give it absolute power over our lives and the lives of generations to come.

It is comfortable for people to believe in the self perpetuating lies spewed out by those who profit from this industry because it means they don\'t have to risk change.

But change is inevitable.

It is up to us to decide what shape and direction that change takes. Yes it will cost us but the sooner we act the more choice we have on the issue.

The costs are much higher if we wait.

Crispin

[Nick Phoenix]

I met Ralph Nader the other night. He had this cool little card in his pocket, with a graph on it comparing the defense spending of the largest nations in the world. It was impressive, kind of like the Empire State building (the US) next to a bunch of 2 story houses.

So, apparently there is an investigation underway, into the security failures of 9/11. The head of the investigative team quit today suddenly! Interesting isn\'t it?

[Z6]

(Boring late night rant - best deleted)

Again, good luck with this Nick and others.