Bowling for Columbine [Archive] - Northern Sound Source

Nick Phoenix

10-20-2002, 11:45 PM

Michael Moore\'s new movie is out. It looks at the gun issue in America, and much more. It\'s funny and brilliant. If it comes to your town, you have to see it. As I am vehemently against George W.\'s phony war, I am posting Rep. Pete Stark\'s statement from the house floor, last week.

Editor\'s note: Below is the fiery statement delivered on the floor of the
House Wednesday by veteran California Democrat Rep. Pete Stark.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Oct. 10, 2002 | \"Mr. Speaker, I rise in opposition to this resolution
(authorizing military force against Iraq). I am deeply troubled that
lives
may be lost without a meaningful attempt to bring Iraq into compliance
with
U.N. resolutions through careful and cautious diplomacy.

\"The bottom line is I don\'t trust this president and his advisors.

\"Make no mistake, we are voting on a resolution that grants total
authority
to the president, who wants to invade a sovereign nation without any
specific act of provocation. This would authorize the United States to
act
as the aggressor for the first time in our history. It sets a precedent
for
our nation -- or any ation -- to exercise brute force anywhere in the
world
without regard to international law or international consensus.

\"Congress must not walk in lockstep behind a president who has been so
callous to proceed without reservation, as if war was of no real
consequence.

\"You know, three years ago in December, Molly Ivins, an observer of
Texas
politics, wrote: \'For an upper-class white boy, Bush comes on way too
hard.
At a guess, to make up for being an upper-class white boy.\'

\"\'Somebody,\' she said, \'should be worrying about how all this could
affect his
handling of future encounters with some Saddam Hussein.\' How prophetic,
Ms. Ivins.

\"Let us not forget that our president -- our commander in chief -- has
no
experience with, or knowledge of, war. In fact, he admits that he was at

best ambivalent about the Vietnam War. He skirted his own military
service
and then failed to serve out his time in the National Guard. And, he
reported years later that at the height of that conflict in 1968 he
didn\'t
notice \'any heavy stuff going on.\'\"

\"So we have a president who thinks foreign territory is the opponent\'s
dugout and Kashmir is a sweater.

\"What is most unconscionable is that there is not a shred of evidence to

justify the certain loss of life. Do the generalized threats and
half-truths
of this administration give any one of us in Congress the confidence to
tell
a mother or father or family that the loss of their child or loved one
was
in the name of a just cause?

\"Is the president\'s need for revenge for the threat once posed to his
father
enough to justify the death of any American?

\"I submit the answer to these questions is no.

\"Aside from the wisdom of going to war as Bush wants, I am troubled by
who
pays for his capricious adventure into world domination. The
administration
admits to a cost of around $200 billion!

\"Now, wealthy individuals won\'t pay. They\'ve got big tax cuts already.
Corporations won\'t pay. They\'ll cook the books and move overseas and
then
send their contributions to the Republicans. Rich kids won\'t pay. Their
daddies will get them deferments as Big George did for George W.

\"Well then, who will pay?

\"School kids will pay. There\'ll be no money to keep them from being left
behind
-- way behind. Seniors will pay. They\'ll pay big time as the Republicans
privatize
Social Security and rob the Trust Fund to pay for the capricious war.
Medicare
will be curtailed and drugs will be more unaffordable. And there won\'t
be any
money for a drug benefit because Bush will spend it all on the war.

\"Working folks will pay through loss of job security and bargaining
rights.
Our grandchildren will pay through the degradation of our air and water
quality. And the entire nation will pay as Bush continues to destroy
civil
rights, women\'s rights and religious freedom in a rush to phony
patriotism
and to courting the messianic Pharisees of the religious right.

\"The questions before the members of this House and to all Americans are

immense, but there are clear answers. America is not currently
confronted by
a genuine, proven, imminent threat from Iraq. The call for war is wrong.

\"And what greatly saddens me at this point in our history is my fear
that
this entire spectacle has not been planned for the well-being of the
world,
but for the short-term political interest of our president.

\"Now, I am also greatly disturbed that many Democratic leaders have also
put
political calculation ahead of the president\'s accountability to truth
and
reason by supporting this resolution. But, I conclude that the only
answer
is to vote no on the resolution before us.\"
- - - - - - - - - - - -
About the writer
Rep. Pete Stark, D-Calif., represents the Fremont, Calif., congressional
district.

[/LIST] <blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style=\"font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;\"> </pre><hr /></blockquote>

Damon

10-21-2002, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
Yes, I can\'t wait to see it. Michael Moore is brilliant.
And now for your viewing pleasure:Bush...or Chimp? (\"http://www.bushorchimp.com/pics.html\")LOL Bruce! images/icons/tongue.gif

Nick Phoenix

10-21-2002, 01:03 AM

Actor Sean Penn Lashes Bush over Iraq War Drums
-----------------------------------------------
October 18, 2002

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Actor Sean Penn on Friday
weighed in on the international debate over a possible
war with Iraq, paying for a $56,000 advertisement in
the Washington Post accusing President Bush of stifling
debate and threatening civil iberties.

In an open letter to Bush taking up most of a page in
the main section of the daily newspaper, the Oscar-
nominated star of \"I Am Sam\" and \"Dead Man Walking,\"
urged the president to stop a cycle where \"bombing is
answered by bombing, mutilation by mutilation, killing
by killing.\"

\"I beg you, help save America before yours is a legacy
of shame and horror,\" Penn wrote, echoing voices of
caution from around the world that have called for a
measured response to allegations Iraq is developing
weapons of mass destruction.

The letter was signed \"Sincerely, Sean Penn, San
Francisco, California.\" A spokesman for the Washington
Post confirmed that it was placed by the Hollywood
celebrity who has starred in more than 40 movies.

Quoting Bush\'s declaration that the world was either
\"with us or against us\" in the war on terrorism
launched after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Penn, 42,
said Bush was marginalizing critics, manipulating the
media and promoting fear.

Those actions and \"your administration\'s deconstruction
of civil liberties all contradict the very core of the
patriotism you claim,\" wrote Penn, who is married to
actress Robin Wright Penn, and was formerly married to
pop star Madonna.

\"Sacrificing American soldiers or innocent civilians in
an unprecedented preemptive attack on a separate
sovereign nation may well prove itself a most temporary
medicine,\" he said.

==========================================

I\'m an American tired of American Lies
--------------------------------------

Woody Harrelson
Thursday October 17, 2002
The Guardian

The man who drives me to and from work is named Woody
too. A relief to me, as it minimises the chance of my
forgetting his name. I call him Woodman and he calls me
Wood. He has become my best friend here, even though
he\'s upset that I have quit drinking beer. He\'s smart,
funny, and there\'s nothing he hasn\'t seen in 33 years
behind the wheel of his black cab. He drove me for a
while before I felt confident he liked me; he doesn\'t
like people easily, especially if they have a rap for
busting up black cabs.

Woodman and I agree about a lot of things, but one
thing we can never agree about is Iraq. He thinks the
only language Saddam understands is brute force. I
don\'t believe we should be bombing cities in our quest
for one man. We\'ve killed a million Iraqis since the
start of the Gulf war - mostly by blocking humanitarian
aid. Let\'s stop now. Thankfully, most of the Brits I
talk to about the war are closer to me than to Woodman.
Only your prime minister doesn\'t seem to have noticed.

I have been here three months doing a play in the West
End. I am having the time of my life. I love England,
the people, the parks, the theatre. The play is great
and the audiences have been a dream. Probably I should
just relax, be happy and talk about the weather, but
this war is under my skin - it affects my sleep.

I remember playing basketball with an Iraqi in the late
80s while Iran and Iraq were at war. I didn\'t know at
the time that the US and Britain were supplying weapons
to both sides. I asked why they were always at war with
each other and he said something that stayed with me:
\"If it were up to thepeople, there would be peace. It\'s
the governments that create war.\" And now my government
is creating its second war in less than a year. No; war
requires two combatants, so I should say \"its second
bombing campaign\".

I went to the White House when Harvey Weinstein was
showing Clinton the movie Welcome to Sarejevo, which I
was in. I got a few moments alone with Clinton. Saddam
throwing out the weapons inspectors was all over the
news and I asked what he was going to do. His answer
was very revealing.

He said: \"Everybody is telling me to bomb him. All the
military are saying, \'You gotta bomb him.\' But if even
one innocent person died, I couldn\'t bear it.\" And I
looked in his eyes and I believed him. Little did I
know he was blocking humanitarian aid at the time,
allowing the deaths of thousands of innocent people.

I am a father, and no amount of propaganda can convince
me that half a million dead children is acceptable
\"collateral damage\". The fact is that Saddam Hussein
was our boy. The CIA helped him to power, as they did
the Shah of Iran and Noriega and Marcos and the Taliban
and countless other brutal tyrants. The fact is that
George Bush Sr continued to supply nerve gas and
technology to Saddam even after he used it on Iran and
then the Kurds in Iraq. While the Amnesty International
report listing countless Saddam atrocities, including
gassing and torturing Kurds, was sitting on his desk,
Bush Sr pushed through a $2bn \"agricultural\" loan and
Thatcher gave hundreds of millions in export credit to
Saddam. The elder Bush then had the audacity to quote
the Amnesty reports to garner support for his oil war.

A decade later, Shrub follows the same line: \"We have
no quarrel with the Iraqi people.\" I\'m sure half a
million Iraqi parents are scratching their heads over
that. I\'m an American tired of lies. And with our
government, it\'s mostly lies.

The history taught in our schools is scandalous. We
grew up believing that Columbus actually discovered
America. We still celebrate Columbus Day. Columbus was
after one thing only - gold. As the natives were
showering him with gifts and kindness, he wrote in his
diary, \"They do not bear arms...They have no iron ...
With 50 men we could subjugate them all and make them
do whatever we want.\"

Columbus is the perfect symbol of US foreign policy to
this day.This is a racist and imperialist war. The
warmongers who stole the White House (you call them
\"hawks\", but I would never disparage such a fine bird)
have hijacked a nation\'s grief and turned it into a
perpetual war on any non-white country they choose to
describe as terrorist.

To the men in Washington, the world is just a giant
Monopoly board. Oddly enough, Americans generally know
how the government works. The politicians do everything
they can for the people - the people who put them in
power. The giant industries that are polluting our
planet as well as violating human rights worldwide are
the ones nearest and dearest to the hearts of American
politicians.

But in wartime people lose their senses. There are
flags and yellow ribbons and posters and every media
outlet is beating the war drum and even sensible people
can hear nothing else. In the US, God forbid you should
suggest the war is unjust or that dropping cluster
bombs from 30,000ft on a city is a cowardly act. When
TV satirist Bill Maher made some dissenting remarks
about the bombing of Afghanistan, Disney pulled the
plug on him. In a country that lauds its freedom of
speech, a word of dissent can cost you your job.

I read in a paper here about a woman who held out the
part of her taxes that would go to the war effort.
Something like 17%. I like that idea, though in the US
it would have to be more like 50%. If you consider
money as a form of energy, then we see half our taxes
and half the US government\'s energy focused on war and
weapons of mass destruction.

Over the past 30 years, this amounts to more than ten
trillion dollars. Imagine that money going to
preserving rainforest or contributing to a sustainable
economy (as opposed to the dinosaur tit we are
currently in the process of sucking dry).

I give in to Woodman, and we stop for a few beers. He
asks me what I\'d do in Bush\'s shoes. Easy: I\'d honour
Kyoto. Join the world court. I\'d stop subsidising earth
rapers like Monsanto, Dupont and Exxon. I\'d shut down
the nuclear power plants. So I already have $200bn
saved from corporate welfare. I\'d save another $100bn
by stopping the war on non-corporate drugs. And I\'d cut
the defence budget in half so they\'d have to get by on
a measly $200bn a year. I\'ve already saved half a
billion bucks by saying no to polluters and warmongers.

Then I\'d give $300bn back to the taxpayers. I\'d take
the rest and pay the people teaching our children what
they deserve. I\'d put $100bn into alternative fuels and
renewable energy. I\'d revive the Chemurgy movement,
which made the farmer the root of the economy, and make
paper and fuel from wheat straw, rice straw and hemp.
Not only would I attend, I\'d sponsor the next Earth
Summit. And, of course, I\'d give myself a fat raise.

Woodman drops me at home and I ask if he likes my
ideas. He offers a reluctant \"yes\". As he pulls away he
yells out, \"But I\'d never vote for a man who can\'t
handle a few pints at the end of the day!\"

----------------------------------------------------
Woody Harrelson appears in On an Average Day at the
Comedy Theatre, Panton Street, London SW1 until
November 3. Box office: 020-7369 1731.

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2002

Terry

10-21-2002, 10:07 AM

Deleted.

passacaglia

10-21-2002, 10:35 AM

Pardon me ..... but why all this political babble in a sample forum ??

And one comment about the hollywood talking heads ..... just becasue they have the $$$ and the access to the media does not make their opinions anymore substantial than any other armchair-CNN-wannabe-political-analyst.

Please find a forum dedicated to politics and the what not, most of us here really could care less.

passacaglia

Hans Adamson

10-21-2002, 12:59 PM

The discussion if a new war should be started and for what reason, is not \'politics\'. It is the responsibility for everyone in whose name it is to be fought.

This debate belongs at every dinner table, in every newspaper and magazine, on every TV-channel, on the radio, on the streets, in bars and resturants, and, yes, on this forum.

Thanks Nick, for the courage, and thanks moderators for allowing the room.

Hans

Bruce A. Richardson

10-21-2002, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by AJF:
Northernsounds is not a forum for discussing politics!!! Take these discussions elsewhere.Ironic. Seems to me a newcomer to a community could be a little less boorish.

We owe each other a little lattitude in topics of discussion, especially in troubled times. I guess I must be getting old. Seems like just yesterday when most artists embraced free discussion.

If you don\'t like the contents of this thread, feel free to stop reading it. Sheesh.

Or have a look at these:
American Crusade Trading Cards (\"http://yorick.infinitejest.org:81/1/cards.html\")

AJF

10-21-2002, 04:16 PM

We owe each other a little lattitude in topics of discussion, especially in troubled times. I guess I must be getting old. Seems like just yesterday when most artists embraced free discussion.
I\'m all for free discussion, but 99% of the people on this board are here to discuss music related topics and shouldn\'t have to sift through this forum to find topics of relevance.

Ironic. Seems to me a newcomer...Nope

shawn

10-21-2002, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by AJF:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
We owe each other a little lattitude in topics of discussion, especially in troubled times. I guess I must be getting old. Seems like just yesterday when most artists embraced free discussion.
I\'m all for free discussion, but 99% of the people on this board are here to discuss music related topics and shouldn\'t have to sift through this forum to find topics of relevance.
<hr /></blockquote>So how much \"sifting\" did you have to do before you realized that \"Bowling for Columbine\" wasn\'t going to be a particularly music-related post? And from which bodily orifice did you pull that \"99%\" figure?

-Shawn

Lance_M

10-21-2002, 04:27 PM

You might want to pick a different argument, as one \"off topic\" topic on the first page doesn\'t really require this sifting that you speak of.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

10-21-2002, 04:32 PM

Good for you Nick. Keep \'em coming. Good for the moderators allowing this.

We\'ve had some great discussions on this forum when we go seriously off topic. Those who have no interest can simply ignore the rest of us who are happy to see these issues aired \'amongst friends\'.

AJF

10-21-2002, 05:08 PM

So how much \"sifting\" did you have to do before you realized that \"Bowling for Columbine\" wasn\'t going to be a particularly music-related post? And from which bodily orifice did you pull that \"99%\" figure? images/icons/smile.gif you must be new on this forum as these unrelated topics such as \"Bowling for Columbine\" have been going on for awhile now...but whatever. I\'ve wasted enough time on this discussion.

ryounger

10-21-2002, 11:22 PM

post removed

AJF

10-21-2002, 11:47 PM

Northernsounds is not a forum for discussing politics!!! Take these discussions elsewhere.

J. Whaley

10-22-2002, 01:00 PM

Well... to all you peace loving folks, I hope LA is the next target. Maybe then you\'ll realize that NY is also part of your counrty, and the \"war on terrorism\" is not a \"phony war\". Our president is being faced with very serious decisions and here we take time out of our nice music discussions to BS about how much we hate our president? Well if you want to protect that freedom of speech to voice your opposition, you should start supporting your president in his actions against Iraq and UBL....

And even though I\'ve given statistics before to this forum (the same people) you still refuse to believe this isn\'t about Oil. The US has all the oil we need WITHOUT Iraq or any of the middle east. The problem is you people in California want to protect the environment so much that we can\'t drill our oil.....

This thread is so out of line I wish someone would take the whole thing off.

Nick Phoenix

10-22-2002, 02:11 PM

J Whaley,
I understand your anger and frustration. The problem is- is that everything you know is wrong. Our government is the greatest threat to the world and America itself. The Bush administration is blocking the investigation into 9/11. They allowed those people to be murdered. If you think our government is so incompetent as to let that happen- you\'re crazy. Our government has a plan of world domination which includes control of Iraq. Almost every single press release is a carefully orchestrated lie to gain support for their actions. Some members of congress actually voted for the Iraq resolution simply to not lose votes in the upcoming election. How sick is that?
The press is owned by six billionaires who have a vested interest in a world, economically and otherwise, dominated by America. Let\'s talk about patriotism. Is it patriotic to blindly follow a government that you know FOR A FACT is lying to you? Or is it patriotic to question the government? The constitution says the latter.

Kobb

10-22-2002, 02:16 PM

I lean in J. Whaley\'s direction, which is not a popular position in most of the artsy musician forums I visit.

A. I don\'t presume to know more about what is going on in Iraq than the CIA - therefore if the US government tells me that they have compelling evidence I\'m going to beleive them. Call me a sucker, but I trust our government a lot more than I trust Saddam.

B. WHEN the next large scale terror attack on American soil occurs, I wonder how many of the people who are protesting \"Bush\'s phony war\" will be trumpeting the merits of turning the other cheek. I wonder how many of the people who will lose loved ones and aquaintances will feel that if only the United States had done more to end world poverty, none of this would have happened. I\'m not willing to take that chance. As far as I\'m concerned, we should take it to these f\'d up Islamic militants. And thank God we have a president who has the balls to do it. If Woody Harrelson were president we\'d be sitting ducks. Sure, it gives everybody warm fuzzies to talk about taking the money spent on national defense and giving it to the hemp farmers. But unfortunately that\'s not very realistic - reality is that this is a dangerous world, and in a dangerous world a big stick is necessity.

C. I\'m so tired of all these wealthy celebrity types putting down the US. If they\'re so concerned about the starving poor in this world maybe they could start by selling off one or two of their homes. F\'in hypocrites. Plus, half the reason that these African and Middle Eastern countries are so poor is because they are under the control of f\'d up governments that squash opportunitues for economic growth (if they\'re not in the middle of a civil war). However, any attempts by The United States to help establish a democratic government that would encourage capitalistic economic growth would surely be met by the liberal crowd with cries of \"American Colonialism!!\"

I love America. I feel VERY fortunate to have been born in a country that values freedom and opportunity. Call me naive, but I trust that our leaders have the best interest of freedom-loving people in mind when they make decisions as serious as declaring war. And I have no qualms about wiping out the Islamic militants who would love to see the destruction of America and Western governments. I hope that I live to see the day when the idea of an \"Islamic State\" is history.

Kobb

10-22-2002, 02:23 PM

Nick,

I respect your work greatly, but I don\'t agree with your politics.

Does it ever bother you that the movie trailers for which you provide trailers are basically advertising tools to put more money into the pockets of the large media companies which wield so much economic influence in America?

10-22-2002, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by J. Whaley:
Well... to all you peace loving folks, I hope LA is the next target.

That\'s a very nice sentiment. You seem to hate Californians as much as you hate \'foreigners\'. So you\'d have us die then? That\'s OK is it? Killing Californians is fine \'cause you\'ve got some moron bug up your arse about California?

What is the war about then? Please tell us. Tell me what Iraq did to New York. Please tell me exactly what Iraq did, I don\'t think I can bear to hear any more about \'weapons of mass destruction\' (the same kind that North Korea and India and Pakistan have and the same kind the US used on two Japanese cities).

Let me know how things have changed since the US was supplying Saddam with chemical weapons to use on his own people and against Iran. Let me see the evidence for attacking a sovereign nation without provocation. Explain to me how possibly killing many innocent people and possibly killing many young US citizens in the armed forces will win against terrorism?

I\'ve lived in a city where terrorists attacked often and with violent abandon. I don\'t see Bush or Blair dropping bombs on Dublin in retaliation. I did, however, see Gerry Adams in the US raising funds for the IRA many, many times (apparently there are a lot of people in the Boston area who get their historic perspective from Gene Kelly movies).

You think this is terrorism? there\'s a sniper in Virginia that\'s teaching the US about terrorism. You cannot fight it with bombs, but you can bring it down upon yourself. You think killing the tortured in Iraq will stop terrorism? You think it\'s not about oil? You are partly right. It\'s about payback for a $150m election win. It\'s about what happens to a country when it allows democracy to be sold to the highest bidder. It\'s about sleight of hand to distract the dull focus of a population that might otherwise be concerned that the whole world economy is on the verge of collapse and nobody seems to be doing a thing about it.

Don\'t ever tell us that this little guy is the protector and giver of democracy. Democracy was forged by people much greater than him.

If you have a plan to rid the world of all terrorism, I\'ll build a shrine to you. (I don\'t think wishing it on California will qualify you for the Nobel peace prize though).

Don\'t ever confuse these sentiments with support for terrorism. I do not wish attacks on anyone (as is your hope). I want the Palestinians to stop blowing people up. I want the Israelis to stop firing missiles into apartment buildings and sending tanks into markets with guns blazing. I want people in the middle east to enjoy freedom, and I want Africa to stop committing genocide and suicide.

Terrorism is the last resort of the hopeless. Unless you wipe out the whole population of the rest of the world (and throw in California as you suggest) you will not stop it. You may leave yourself with the odd redneck who thinks the same way about New York that you do about California, of course.

Maybe then you\'ll realize that NY is also part of your counrty, and the \"war on terrorism\" is not a \"phony war\".

Yes, and we can all be at the forefront. All we have to do is vegitate in front of our televisions, and it\'ll all be taken care of for us. We can win! We can win! In fact, after Iraq, why don\'t we go after Iran, then the Sudan, why not China? (Well, let\'s not pick a fight with anyone who can actually fight back.) Hell, let\'s kill all those tree-hugging Californians. Bunch of loonies, they deserve to suffer. Let them watch people die on television in much closer proximity. That\'ll teach them.

Our president is being faced with very serious decisions

Yes, he is. And he has not displayed the mental capacity to make those decisions. The office increases neither wisdom nor IQ (unfortunately). This is a man who called the democratic party \'unpatriotic\' when he last wandered from the script.

and here we take time out of our nice music discussions to BS about how much we hate our president?

This is not about hate. It is about disagreeing. It is about questioning the massive powers accorded a single individual in a system where power can be purchased.

Well if you want to protect that freedom of speech to voice your opposition, you should start supporting your president in his actions against Iraq and UBL....

Don\'t be ridiculous. (What\'s UBL?)

And even though I\'ve given statistics before to this forum (the same people) you still refuse to believe this isn\'t about Oil.

And here was I thinking it was just your opinion. I didn\'t realise you had the capacity to spout the absolute truth. Sorry.

The US has all the oil we need WITHOUT Iraq or any of the middle east. The problem is you people in California want to protect the environment so much that we can\'t drill our oil.....

Yes it does, but it doesn\'t have all the oil it WANTS. And no, it\'s not about \'protecting the environment\'. Not at all. It\'s about a little rich, white upper-class kid in way, way above his head, and the consequences thereof.

This thread is so out of line I wish someone would take the whole thing off

You can retract your statement about hoping that LA becomes a target of terrorism if you like (or you can leave it until maybe someone sees it and thinks it\'s a good idea; and starts killing) but I won\'t retract anything.

Statistics.. bah.

devinmaxwell

10-22-2002, 03:03 PM

i wish that the whole thing was less convoluted. Rumsfeld could have stopped Iraq in 1984, we could have stopped Iraq from invading Kuwait in the first place, GWB the first could have stopped it after Desert Storm, so now we\'ve got an administration that not only allowed Iraq to happen, but was also responsible for funding Iraq in the mid 80\'s.

Clinton could have stepped in and done a better job handling terrorism, but i feel that this administration is at least partly responsible for Iraq. That has got to be effecting their decisions. If Iraq does develop WMD and uses it, this current administration would be partly responsible.

That\'s not \"right,\" but I believe it is impacting their decision.

I don\'t know whether iraq has been floating money to terrorist organizations, or not. What I do know is that there is a well-funded, well-educated class (i don\'t know how big it is) of people that harbor resentment toward either christianity or America.

something has to be done about that. instead of killing these people, we need to figure out some way of letting these people expend their energy elsewhere. we\'ve got to leave room for a non-western modern world or else we\'re going to face some serious problems down the road. i have no idea how to do that, but it needs to happen.

i guess i look at it this way: what if the white supremist groups in our country had nothing to do and felt that islam was partly responsible? they would probably start stirring things up to say the least.

the other thing that clouds this issue further is that Cheney and Rumsfeld have been right about certain things in the past while the CIA has been dead wrong. I don\'t have specific examples of that at my fingertips but I can find it if someone wants.

where does israel fit into all of this? i don\'t know. None of these countries have a developed enoug military to take on Israel; however, they have a serious, violent prejudice towards that country. in a way, the playing field is so unequal that terroist tactics are the only way to fight israel/america. our human rights concerns don\'t allow us to strongarm these groups and when we did (in the 80s) it was covert and unsuccessful.

what really needs to happen is that a modern conception of global economic, social, and political conditions needs to be developed and codified.

i guess that\'s about as easy as developing cold fusion.

devin maxwell

Kobb

10-22-2002, 03:21 PM

Z6,

I don\'t think that J Whaley wishes an attack upon LA.

His point was that it\'s a lot easier to be a \"peacenik\" when the tragedy of an event such as 9-11 doesn\'t REALLY hit home. I would expect that someone such as yourself, who obviously enjoys engaging in this sort of discussion (and is good at it), would be able to recognize that subtlety.

Kobb

10-22-2002, 03:22 PM

By the way,

Even though I am a Bush guy who completely supports the war on terrorism, I still think that the \"Bush or Chimp\" and the posters were hilarious.

Very Clever.

10-22-2002, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Kobb:
I lean in J. Whaley\'s direction, which is not a popular position in most of the artsy musician forums I visit.This isn\'t a popularity contest.

A. I don\'t presume to know more about what is going on in Iraq than the CIA - therefore if the US government tells me that they have compelling evidence I\'m going to beleive them. Call me a sucker, but I trust our government a lot more than I trust Saddam..Kobb. You\'re a sucker. You don\'t have to trust Saddam. He lives way way over there with the other bugs. Your government lives right here. The basis of all modern democracy is to not trust your government. That\'s why democracy allows us to sling them out after a few years. If we could actually trust them, we wouldn\'t need elections.

The problem is that we haven\'t cottoned on to throwing out the whole beaurocracy every few years. This, by default, ends up with a festering boil where the business end of our civil service should be. There are FBI and CIA people all over the place who are screaming the truth but nobody wants to listen. Politics has been reduced to the constant repetition of short phrases. The only place I have ever lived that even comes close to the news blackout I see in the US was in the United Arab Emirates. (Not a democracy, by the way - but does have a lotta oil.)

B. WHEN the next large scale terror attack on American soil occurs, I wonder how many of the people who are protesting \"Bush\'s phony war\" will be trumpeting the merits of turning the other cheek.


AAAARGH! This is not about turning the other cheek. Kill the bastards. Kill all terrorists. I want them out of my world. Find a way to do this and you\'ve got my vote. Attacking Iraq is not doing this. Do you get it yet? The whole world attacked Iraq when Iraq invaded one of the most dreadful regimes the world has ever seen. Kuwait is a disgusting ****hole run by a handful of tyrannical towel-heads. The world went in to \'free\' that which was not free. FOR OIL. Oil is everything. Our whole society only became possible when we ran out of whales and started pumping it. We need it. I\'m not against finding it and using it.

As far as I\'m concerned, we should take it to these f\'d up Islamic militants. 
The population of Iraq are all Islamic militants then? It\'s decided. All of them. The people who actually perpetrated 9/11 were not even muslims. The Q\'ran does not allow suicide for any cause, this is a bastardization designed to fit-in with the profile. The Q\'ran does not allow for deliberate self-martyrdom: it is forbidden. One of the 9/11 terrorists was reported to have been drinking heavily the night before. He is, therefore, not a Muslim.

And thank God we have a president who has the balls to do it.
You reckon? It\'s funny how so many current and recent presidents get so \'ballsy\' when in office with nothing whatever in their past to indicate the presence of such large and unweildy gonads. Where were those balls during all the other US \'wars\' over the past few years? You think it\'s that hard to order the deaths of others? I\'d find it hard; you might find it hard, but we\'re not politicians.

In fact, I have a solution that would get us Saddam, or at least it would let GWB have at him the way he leads us to believe he\'s going to do by proxy. But it will never happen. It would be expensive but it would work. But it would require the display of both integrity and mammoth cojones on the part of GWB.

You see, I don\'t think he has balls at all. Or maybe he does, but ordering war does not test them in any way. Quite the opposite, in fact. And ordering war on any old place that has a guy in a black hat doesn\'t signify bravery.

in a dangerous world a big stick is necessity.

Well, the rest of the world is, quite literally, sick to death of the US and its big stick. Don\'t you understand? That\'s what 9/11 was. It was a reaction. It wasn\'t an \'attack on democracy\', or an attack on \'freedom\'. It was a reaction to years and years of perceived imperialism. To miss this is to miss everything. To miss this is to perpertuate and accentuate the violence. We have to learn from this. The hopeless never stop. Do you get it yet? In Israel/Palestine, little boys throw stones at soldiers, they hurl slingshots at tanks. Have you ever noticed during the sparse coverage of that region on US television that the protestors are almost invariably little boys?

There is a generation out there growing up to hate the US. Make it stop. Stop attacking everyone every time something bad happens. The world fears the US much more than it fears Saddam. If this gives you comfort, then there can be no end to this. If it makes you uneasy, then there is hope. The US must at least get the full backing of the UN in every action on this. And if this resolution is to be backed by force then all resolutions should be backed by force

half the reason that these African and Middle Eastern countries are so poor is because they are under the control of f\'d up governments that squash opportunitues for economic growth

How right you are.

However, any attempts by The United States to help establish a democratic government that would encourage capitalistic economic growth would surely be met by the liberal crowd with cries of \"American Colonialism!!\"


It is none of America\'s business. Stop helping. America doesn\'t try to establish democracies, it prefers to deal with friendly dictators because it\'s easier to deal with one man than a rabble. America has no business establishing anything an any other country. It certainly doesn\'t try to establish democracy in Saudi Arabia - the real seat of international terrorism. Why is that? They (i.e. one family, and millions of poor people) are our \'friends\'.

I love America. I feel VERY fortunate to have been born in a country that values freedom and opportunity.

So you should, it is a wonderful country.

Call me naive, but I trust that our leaders have the best interest of freedom-loving people in mind when they make decisions as serious as declaring war.

Kobb, you\'re naive.

And I have no qualms about wiping out the Islamic militants who would love to see the destruction of America and Western governments. I hope that I live to see the day when the idea of an \"Islamic State\" is history.Is there no difference then between an Islamic state and islamic militants? This is the problem Nick keeps alluding to. Rank ignorance. Sorry Kobb, it\'s not an insult. There is just such an infuriating lack of education in this country. Everything is a huge great blanket statement. And that ignorance is the power of the people with the stick.

Be careful who you trust.

Kobb

10-22-2002, 03:46 PM

Z6,

You make some valid points. I don\'t have time to respond thoughtfully right now - but maybe later.

And thanks for calling me naive and just getting it over with. images/icons/wink.gif

Nick Phoenix

10-22-2002, 04:08 PM

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY Z6:

\"There is just such an infuriating lack of education in this country. Everything is a huge great blanket statement. And that ignorance is the power of the people with the stick. Be careful who you trust.\"

To me, that says it all. Why do people have such profound trust in people that have repeatedly lied to them. There are dozens of books available, that expose all of the lies. They are very condemning and make bold statements and accusations. Those books would be pulled off the stands in a second, if they were full of lies. The fact is- is that the government can\'t do a damn thing about them, because they are true and well documented and researched. Bush hasn\'t managed to destroy this type of democratic expression..........yet. But, you can be sure that if more people read books, there would be a war on books!

Deimos

10-22-2002, 07:41 PM

Harumph

This is a fight between the forces of law and those of chaos. Not good or evil, or even east versus west.

Moreover, the initial quote about America setting a \"precedent of aggression\" is rediculous. I believe that was set by the likes of Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, Hitler, Napoleon, and Kokutai, the classical Japanese national polity. Or I should say, this is a common aspect of human nature that is shared by all.

The Congressman also questioned why did Bush\'s advisors not stop Saddam and Al-Qaeda back in the 80s and 90s, apparently not realizing that this makes a strong case for why and how things get worse and worse until we ACT.

What is life? The daily struggle of the strong overcoming the weak. Society and civilization is an abstract form of hunting and gathering; likewise, economics is the modern form of predation and competition.

Also, kudos to AJF for standing up to big, bad, old Bruce. Meanwhile I laugh at Z6\'s limp little d1ck. As for Nick, controversy is his schtick. Give him good press, give him bad press, but GIVE HIM PRESS!

What\'s going on in the world is this: the chaotic element is working with our lawful enemy-states. Competition still exists, and the friend of our enemy is our enemy. We have ugly work to do if we want to live. The rest of you will find your true comraderie in France, a country we saved, only to turn against us. Just like Saddam.

Clearly, it is the best of all possible worlds.

10-22-2002, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Deimos:

Meanwhile, I laugh at Z6\'s limp little d1ck.
And you\'re certainly not the first to do so. But I want to know where you saw it, \'cause last time I looked it was sitting right here in my pants where it belongs?

Many thanks for your thoughtful and entertaining contribution though, you have restored my faith in the three stooges.

For anyone interested, I have a team of experts examining your post for hidden meaning as I write. Well... they\'re examining it for any meaning really.

Glad to see that you didn\'t get personal. I won\'t let on to my limp little willie that you were berating him unjustly.

images/icons/tongue.gif (I put this in just in case.)

Lucas

10-22-2002, 07:53 PM

I saw Michael Moore interviewed on TV and thought him a complete idiot. What was the name of his, er, autobiography, \"Stupid White Men\" or something like that?

Nick, I understand along with you that the Press and the Media have been seized by a wealthy few who use it to forward their insidious ends. But I think you have some of the players crossed.

Isn\'t the United Nations, the brainchild of these bankers against enforcing compliance on Iraq? This just doesn\'t jibe with your take on the administration.

The administration has not declared war. It is attempting to work out a plan in case Iraq does not comply with the provisions laid down by the United Nations.

Deimos

10-22-2002, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by Lucas:

The administration has not declared war. It is attempting to work out a plan in case Iraq does not comply with the provisions laid down by the United Nations.Exactly. Iraq LOST the gulf war but, instead of complying with the deal they signed, they stuck it to their people for over TEN YEARS. Without even getting into our newfound determination, there is all the precedent we need.

I also just love how the French are demanding that we allow ourselves to be filibustered by the UN bureaucracy. In fact, Mr. Charles de Gaulle did whatever the hell he wanted -- as long as the French benefited, he could care less about the rest of the world. We bent over backwards to appease him, and now we have Chirac. A complete reversal and total denial of History, because if France could not act in its own interests at the crucial time, that country simply would not exist today in the way they want/have it.

We will not be stopped. Some of us will die. And the dissenters will benefit whilst they continue to complain. Outward patriots to the one, deep down they know upon which side their bread is buttered.

Deimos

10-22-2002, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Z6:

Glad to see that you didn\'t get personal.



Also originally posted by Z6:

This isn\'t a popularity contest. Kobb. You\'re a sucker.

Just like the other loud whiners here, you\'re full of noise and no solutions. Your carefully pieced-together logic collapses against the assault of your own contradictions. It takes you pages to go through the motions; a vast flood of verbal diarrhea. When you see brave Nick start a marketing fray, you\'re there at his side like the faithful squire.

Nuff said?

Nick Phoenix

10-22-2002, 09:19 PM

The lack of compelling, factual arguments is, well, just what I expected. The world doesn\'t have to be such a viscious, kill or be killed, place. We could start by stopping the funding of right wing dictators. This is a proven fact and yet it continues today under pathetic disguises. What do you Bush babies have to say about that? There are alternate forms of energy to oil. Besides, it\'s dirty and will all be gone soon. What kind of future are we preparing for? Shouldn\'t we be saving the oil for transportation that really needs high thrust? The lack of foresight displayed by the US government is astonishing. But, it becomes clear when you understand that big oil is running the government. This is not in anybody\'s best interest. Please, let me hear a concise argument as to how oil companies running the world benefits anybody, besides the pr1cks running the company. images/icons/shocked.gif

10-22-2002, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by Deimos:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Z6:

Glad to see that you didn\'t get personal.



Also originally posted by Z6:

This isn\'t a popularity contest. Kobb. You\'re a sucker.

Just like the other loud whiners here, you\'re full of noise and no solutions. Your carefully pieced-together logic collapses against the assault of your own contradictions. It takes you pages to go through the motions; a vast flood of verbal diarrhea. When you see brave Nick start a marketing fray, you\'re there at his side like the faithful squire.

Nuff said?<hr /></blockquote>Strangely, I called Kobb a sucker because he said it himself. I doubt he\'s any more a sucker really than me or you or anyone else. And I get the feeling he knows I\'m not trying to put him down, or that I think I\'m better than him. I disagree with him; that\'s all. He had the courage of his convictions to say what he thought and so did I. That is all.

I do have a solution. I have a solution that would sort it all out Iraqi-evil-wise. But I won\'t post it here. It could never happen, of course, because it would require politicians to actually stand behind their words. And it\'s such a corker idea that I don\'t think I really want it getting sshhaatt all over here if you don\'t mind.

I even have an instant solution to the Palestine Israeli problem, and I will post that: Cut the cash to Israel. By five o\' clock they\'d all be round the table fighting to buy each other drinks and their backs would be sore with all the mutual slapping.

Sorry Kobb, if it sounded as if I was getting at you. I also called you naive because you said \"call me naive\" as well as \"call me a sucker\".

Yes, I\'d do anything for Nick. Nick and I are former lovers. If you went through some of the older threads you\'d see how Nick and I can\'t get enough of each other and I\'m forever jumping to attention for him. I love him and the world be damned! You\'ll find that Nick and I are pretty close on this subject because we seem to have both arrived at similar conclusions completely independently. You can be sure that there\'s no pandering going on there.

My \'logic\' is \'carefully pieced\' together in the time it probably takes you to read it. If I contradict myself then so be it. The world is complex and full of contradictions.

You are spot on with the \'verbal diarrhea\' (I hope you spelled that correctly cause I never can and I just copied yours). It is my affliction. I cannot write a sentence without going for a book. \'Long-winded tripe\' is another you might want to use in future. I know, and can only offer apologies to innocent onlookers.

Someone else accused Nick of doing this for marketing; and that I do find offensive. I know the difference between posturing and heartfelt words.

And know that I am not entiely with Nick on the \'oil\' issue. I have known too many people who work for oil companies to see it all so clearly. There is no doubting the power of oil companies, but I have yet to be convinced that we could somehow \'manage it all\' better than we do. When the mother of invention demands alternatives to oil, we will find them in our usual messy, bloody way.

You are posturing my friend, we both know that. Please do me and yourself a favor and try to keep to the issues (touchy as they may be); give my little winkie a break and stop trying to get me to insult you, because I won\'t. Insults beyond limp **** and verbal diarrhea do indeed require some thought and I simply cannot be arsed.

This can be an interesting and vital thread. Please don\'t spoil it. (And by \'vital\' I don\'t mean that we are important; I just mean full of vitality).

Now, I\'m off to wipe my arse. Sorry, I mean wipe my face; there\'s all this horrible stuff dripping from my chin - better stop mouthing the words as I write?

Kobb

10-23-2002, 01:31 AM

Z6,

Don\'t worry. Like you, I enjoy these sorts of discussions and believe that there is a fine line that must be tread. It\'s important not to let these sort of topics spiral out of control. As we both mentioned before, this is about a disagreement of political views - not a personal assault thread, and I thought your comments were perfectly appropriate given my \"invitation\".

I know I asked to be called a sucker. And I asked for it for a reason. There is part of me that believes it.

I am a news junkie. On my way to work I listen to NPR to catch the news of the day. When I get to work, the first thing I do is check out the four or five news sites that I have bookmarked while I listen to talk radio (and yes - it\'s mostly conservative, Rush Limbaugh-style commentary). I try to check out different points of view on issues, but I usually (not always) end up siding with the conservative viewpoint.

But do I feel informed? Do I believe everything I read? Do I think that I have even a remote understanding of the iceberg that\'s lurking below the 5-6 paragraph AP stories?

Not really.

But then again, I don\'t think that you or Nick are really privy to much more information than I am. There are a lot of books out there that detail the shady dealings of conservative and liberal politicians alike. The jist is that politics in general kinda sucks. I agree with your earlier post where you said \"The basis of all modern democracy is to not trust your government. That\'s why democracy allows us to sling them out after a few years.\" While I am a \"Bush guy\", I am not ACTUALLY quite so naive as to believe that he is lillywhite clean in terms of how he conducts all of his business. But I am realistic about the nature of the job - the resposibilities and pressures that come from all sides - and I just feel that given the fact that ANY president is going to have their fair share of dirt on their hands, Bush is basically a decent person who tends to view most issues in a fashion similar to my perspective. I would imagine that while you may not have liked EVERYTHING about Clinton, you would be more willing to defend his dirt than Bush\'s dirt simply because your original perspective matched his. I, on the other hand, think Clinton is a pig whose actions and decisions led to a severe weakening of our country (in numerous ways).

I liked the point Deimos made about the basic survival instict. I believe it is very true on every level: in governments, businesses, and individuals.

Nick stated, \"The world doesn\'t have to be such a viscious, kill or be killed, place.\" However Nick, you yourself displayed this same instinct for a successful survival when you placed a license restriction on your VOTA sample library prohibiting its use on movie trailers, thereby protecting your income while denying others the opportunity to earn income in a similar field.

Nick, please understand: I think that this was a COMPLETELY fair and legitimate move on your part. You had every right to protect yourself from your own excellent work being used against you, and I am just grateful that you\'re willing to offer your samples to us. However, there is no denying that this was a \"kill or be killed\" sort of decision, albeit on a very microscopic level. You are in the fortunate position of only being responsible for protecting and providing for your own family, so there is never really an instance where this approach would literally require you to \"kill or be killed\".

However, the president of the United States - be they liberal or conservative - has to make this decision on an epic scale, where kill or be killed means what it says for a lot of Americans.

It\'s late and I need to go to bed. there are other points I\'d like to touch on, but they\'ll have to wait.

Nick Phoenix

10-23-2002, 03:16 AM

Kobb,
I really appreciate the calm and thoughtful way you wrote that. But, you have to be careful about labeling things liberal or conservative. Liberal representation in our government is now close to 0.
Clinton wasn\'t a liberal. Sometimes he talked like one, but mostly he talked like a moderate. His actions ranged from moderate to conservative. Conservative hatred of Bill Clinton is very amusing. It was created by the media and one very rich republican who spent hundreds of millions on the bring down Clinton campaign. (read: Blinded by the Right) He was actually a friend of the right, mostly. But, then again what is the right? I think you\'ve all been tricked into following the Rupublican party. They focus on a few key issues to gain your support and then pursue their real agenda in secret. I don\'t think that most Republicans have a clue what their party is really up to. Actually there aren\'t that many books coming from the right that really discuss politics in detail. It\'s more things like \"The Autobiography of Colin Powell.\" Thats because they have alot to hide. On the other hand, there are tons of books coming from the left. If most people read them there would be mayhem in this country.
So I am saying that the only solution is for everyone to stop watching the news. Read some books from both sides of the spectrum and make your own assessments.

One last thing- I can\'t understand it when people say they are a \"Bush man\" Do you admire his intelligence? Are you happy with the way he handled 9/11? Afterall he did let it happen. He\'s got to take responsibility. He\'s the president. Even if you disagree with the fact that he let it happen, you have to admit he screwed up BADLY. Instead they want you to believe it\'s bureaucracy\'s fault. \"Give me broad powers to do this or that\" should be W\'s slogan. The man is so anti-democratic it\'s ridiculous. The man is connected in every conceivable way to dozens of corporate criminals. Does that make you proud? Hey, he did a great job catching Osama! Didn\'t he. What a hero! How about the 80% he cut from free medical clinics. Let the poor die in the streets. Such a pal, that Shrub. Meanwhile the rich get huge tax cuts. Oh, I forgot- they work about 5000 times as hard as the average guy. They deserve 5000 times the pay. How bout the 60 million dollar contract that the Carlyle group(Daddy\'s and the Bin Laden\'s company, among others) got from the war on terror. very nice! I know, it must be the way he has single handedly destroyed parts of the constitution in his war on terror. What homage he is paying to those wise founding fathers that he loves so much. Here\'s one that is sure to make you all warm and fuzzy inside- Since we liberated Afghanistan from the tyranny of the Taliban, legislation put on Shrubs desk that would give women in Afghanistan a few million dollars to begin rebuilding schools etc. was not signed. He also has declined to do anything about the fact that women\'s schools are being burned down and things have pretty much returned to Taliban like conditions. But the pipeline is going really really well. Whew! What relief.
Also, about the VotA license agreement. I agree with what you said. I acted in my own self interest and if the government was truly acting in the interest of the American people, making tough but crucial decisions, it would be a good comparison. However, they are not acting in our best interest. The plan to take out Saddam is a prime example and is part of a larger imperialist plan, the details of which are a complete mystery to the American people. They have to lie about it because we would never agree, if we knew the details. That\'s called a rogue government.

Leon Willett

10-23-2002, 04:41 AM

Dearest Kobb and J,

I live in Spain, where there has been a huge rise in Morroccan immigrants in the last 5 years. Some of them are Islamic in belief. What percentage of the population of a country must be islamic in order to qualify for getting bombed by the United States? Just wondering, so I can prepare myself before war is declared.

If I provide the coordinates of my flat in the centre Barcelona, will your airforce try to avoid hitting it?

Oh, hang on. There\'s no oil here. I think I\'ll be OK. Just as well I\'m not living under one of the governments on your black list (through no fault of my own).

PeterRoos

10-23-2002, 05:24 AM

The US government and senate have recently installed a law that allows them to invade the country I live in (The Netherlands), should our country ever arrest or detain American citizens under suspicion of violations of international law(s). Invading in the sense of coming in and getting the alleged perpetrators out by force.

This law is nicknamed \"The invasion of The Hague Law\". Most politicians in this country react quite indifferent to this law, saying that it is highly unlikely that a \"friendly\" nation will ever do such a thing to one of its \"allies\".

In the mean time I find it is rather aggresive and arrogant that the US government thinks it can dictate to the world what constitutes justice, law, sovereign countries, etc. IMO, this just does not come from a desire to live in a more peaceful world, but from a desire to live in a safeguarded America.

I don\'t want to enter into this discussion any further, but like to add that I believe many, many people are just straight worried about this president.

Peter

shawn

10-23-2002, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Lucas:
I saw Michael Moore interviewed on TV and thought him a complete idiot. What was the name of his, er, autobiography, \"Stupid White Men\" or something like that?Michael Moore is by no means a brilliant social/cultural/political critic. His tactics are sometimes slippery to the point of being unfair, and his reasoning isn\'t always on the mark. But he excels at bringing important (often neglected) issues into the light, usually in a very entertaining manner. He doesn\'t have the answers, but he asks the right questions -- and for that alone I appreciate his efforts.

Originally posted by Lucas:
The administration has not declared war. It is attempting to work out a plan in case Iraq does not comply with the provisions laid down by the United Nations.My hope is that Bush\'s cowboy schtick is really just a ploy to give some teeth to diplomatic efforts to effect a solution. But part of me is scared that he\'s every bit as gung-ho as he seems.

-Shawn

shawn

10-23-2002, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Leon Willett:
I live in Spain, where there has been a huge rise in Morroccan immigrants in the last 5 years. Some of them are Islamic in belief. What percentage of the population of a country must be islamic in order to qualify for getting bombed by the United States? Just wondering, so I can prepare myself before war is declared.Careful now: not all wars are \"declared\".

Originally posted by Leon Willett:
If I provide the coordinates of my flat in the centre Barcelona, will your airforce try to avoid hitting it?I think you\'re safe.... as long as you don\'t live near the Chinese embassy.

-Shawn

Kobb

10-23-2002, 09:43 AM

Hey Leon,

I was always careful in my posts to direct my anger toward Islamic MILITANTS, which I understand to be Musilims who are willing to use terrorist acts in order to further their goals of creating Islamic States. Islamic states are those countries where the official government operates under Islamic law.

Of course I don\'t believe that simply because a person practices Islam they should be wiped out. I\'m not going to claim to know much about Islam, but from what I understand it is NOT a violent religion when practiced correctly. But just like Christianity in the past (the religion that I grew up with and still consider myself to be a part of), violence has been introduced into the religion by people with political (power) motives.

But feel free to provide your coordinates so I can toilet paper your house if I\'m feeling mischievous some night.

Nick,

We\'re simply going to have to agree to disagree on some of these issues - especially the fact that Bush \"let\" 9-11 happen. I just can\'t make that leap.

I\'m a \"Bush man\" in the sense that I voted for the guy and generally agree with most of his stated positions. Yes, I (like most Americans) am ignorant about most of the behind the scenes seediness which might make me wince. And if you want to recommend some books (such as the one you suggested above), I might even be willing to check them out.

And I also agree that the conservative vs. liberal paintbrush can perhaps be a bit too broad. I myself favor certain issues which I would label as liberal (environmental concerns, non-smoking regulations, legalizing industrial hemp) although overall I consider myself to be conservative. They\'re just words that we use, probably inadequately, to describe ourselves and our views.

I\'m also glad that we can conduct what could be a volatile discussion in a reasonable manner - with openess and humor. It\'s funny how easy it is to blow up at an annonymous person on a forum, but when you \"know\" the person (although we don\'t REALLY know each other), you\'re more likely to react with civility. Perhaps that\'s the real lesson we could all learn and apply on a larger scale.

How\'s that for warm and fuzzy?

Lucas

10-23-2002, 12:46 PM

Nick Phoenix wrote:

\"So I am saying that the only solution is for everyone to stop watching the news. Read some books from both sides of the spectrum and make your own assessments.\"

I think that\'s a very good idea. I don\'t expect any truth from the popular media. However, I think you err in thinking it all comes from the right.

One example is \"Tax cuts for the rich\". This is a tired political slogan that has nothing to do with actuality. If you do some research you will find that the top 20-30% of wage earners pay something like 80% of all taxes. And I\'m willing to bet that at least a few of those are ethical, hard-working people.

As for Michael Moore, he misquotes, alters meaning and produces a false picture. He omits the fact that guns also save lives by deterring would-be attackers. What would be the bottom line if guns were controlled. Only the government and criminals would have them. Does that scare you a bit?

Besides, a few hundred years ago people just used poison instead. Is getting rid of guns going to solve the problem of murder?

Now, I find it amazing and incredible, all this talk about the US being dictatorial, the aggressor, bent on world domination, etc.etc.etc.
Has it been forgotten that the US was attacked and had three thousand civilians killed? And that there are continuing efforts to continue slaughtering innocent people?

I don\'t pretend that our government is pure and selfless, but you have to weigh in the positive factors before you rush to judgment. I think you should be glad that it isn\'t some other country that has this kind of power.

In my opinion, the US is the only reason the entire world hasn\'t gone into a socialistic slavery.

Beckers

10-23-2002, 12:57 PM

I haven\'t read the books mentioned by Nick Phoenix, but nevertheless have a great sense of unease about the current American drive.

Why are Iraqi lives considered so much less important than American lives?

If the US invades Iraq, thousands of innocent Iraqis WILL die (by innocent I mean civilians and conscripts). In fact, this isn\'t even a fair swap: definite Iraqi lives against an ALLEGED RISK to American lives from Saddam.

Moreover, when is Saddam more likely to use any WMD, or to engage terrorists to attack the US? Is it under the current policy of inspection and containment (even if he manages to hide a lot of his activies), or when he is being invaded by the US?

I suggest the risk to American lives (and British, -thanks, Tony) will rise dramatically the moment Iraq is invaded. This may continue long term from the remnants of Saddam’s regime within the Ba’ath party, if he is deposed under American cover. Certainly support for the 9/11 perpetrators will soar.

Without Nick\'s books you still have to question Bush\'s agenda and his respect for humanity. (What was the sudden body count again from executions in Texas during his election campaign?)

Beckers

10-23-2002, 12:59 PM

double

Munsie

10-23-2002, 01:01 PM

I wonder why Nick doesn\'t post his political views in his own forum area? (East West) Seems that would be the proper place for them. Just curious......

shawn

10-23-2002, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Lucas:
I don\'t expect any truth from the popular media. However, I think you err in thinking it all comes from the right.

One example is \"Tax cuts for the rich\". This is a tired political slogan that has nothing to do with actuality. If you do some research you will find that the top 20-30% of wage earners pay something like 80% of all taxes.These numbers are meaningless unless you compare them to actual wages earned. For example, if it turns out that the top 20-30% of wage earners actually earn 90% of all wages, then paying only \"80% of all taxes\" would mean they\'re not paying their fair share.

-Shawn

Hans Adamson

10-23-2002, 02:31 PM

I would like to comment on statements above regarding the U.N. and the U.S. relations to the U.N. and the rest of the world.

The U.N. was created as an organ to ensure peace in the world. It constitutes a democracy of the nations of the world. All sovereign nations of the world are members, although only a handful are represented in the security council, where the U.S. is a permanent member along with a few other nations. The security council members have a VIP status in the U.N. as any Security Council member can veto a U.N resolution and thus effectively block any constructive solutions.

Unfortunately, the U.S. refuses to fully accept the validity of this world community by refusing to pay their part of the U.N. peace keeping missions of the world, leaving the burden of this to less fortunate nations.

It is also unfortunate that the U.S. refuses to validate a permanent International Criminal Court (ICC) unless American military leaders and politicians are exempt from liability. The reasoning for this is that the rest of the world would be biased against the U.S.

It is also unfortunate that the U.S. refuses to ratify agreements accepted by the rest of the world such as the Kyoto agreement, which would limit emissions damaging to the climate of our planet. The reasoning for this being that it would be bad for American business.

Now the U.S. has chosen to adopt a policy where it can strike anywhere it chooses, if the U.S. military supremacy appears to be challenged.

If we believe in a democratic world, why not allow the world to come together as one?

As to the effectiveness of U.N. arms inspections, and Iraq\'s previous failure to comply:

The former head of the U.N. inspection team at the time Rolf Ekéus has stated that the U.S. participants of this team engaged in activities not mandated by the U.N. i.e. spying, as well as trying to recruit delegates from other nations to spy for the U.S. He has also stated that the U.S. participants at times displayed less interest in fulfilling the mission\'s primary tasks than demanding new provocative inspections not mandated by the resolution. Finally Iraq threw out the inspections team.

In light of this previous behavior, combined with the recently proposed resolution by the U.S., where the U.S. would be justified to invade Iraq unless the U.S. terms where met within a week, it could appear to a neutral observer that the U.S. may be more interested in creating an excuse to attack Iraq, than to disarm Saddam Hussein and maintain stability in the region.

Sorry to say, the information above is nothing you would find in the American news media. However, it is freely available in the news media around the world. Maybe this can shed some light on how the rest of the world is reacting to the U.S. eagerness to unilaterally start a war in the Middle East. Particularly for those who claim that the rest of the world \"is just envious of our lifestyle, and hate us for that\".

Hans Adamson

Lucas

10-23-2002, 03:33 PM

These numbers are meaningless unless you compare them to actual wages earned. For example, if it turns out that the top 20-30% of wage earners actually earn 90% of all wages, then paying only \"80% of all taxes\" would mean they\'re not paying their fair share.

-Shawn
Yes, Shawn it would be meaningless. However, it doesn\'t turn out that way. Higher income earners pay double or triple the rate of lower earners. According to the tax code the \"rich\" start at around $65,000 of income per year. It\'s probably true that Rockefeller et al can avoid taxes. But we\'re talking here of a very tiny few.

Beckers wrote:
\"Why are Iraqi lives considered so much less important than American lives?

If the US invades Iraq, thousands of innocent Iraqis WILL die (by innocent I mean civilians and conscripts). In fact, this isn\'t even a fair swap: definite Iraqi lives against an ALLEGED RISK to American lives from Saddam.\" Iraqi lives are not considered less important than American. I think you have it a little backwards - definite Iraqi lives? There hasn\'t been an invasion. And yes there have been American lives lost - mostly civilians.

If you want to argue that there is no connection between the WTC and Iraq then go ahead and make your point.

I am not a supporter of war. Generally, it is evil and unnecessary. However, at times it can prevent future loss of lives and freedom.

In 1939, Neville Chamberlain \"gave\" Hitler Czechoslovakia and patted himself on the back for preventing war. I don\'t want to see that happen again.

shawn

10-23-2002, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by Lucas:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />These numbers are meaningless unless you compare them to actual wages earned. For example, if it turns out that the top 20-30% of wage earners actually earn 90% of all wages, then paying only \"80% of all taxes\" would mean they\'re not paying their fair share.

-Shawn
Yes, Shawn it would be meaningless. However, it doesn\'t turn out that way. Higher income earners pay double or triple the rate of lower earners. According to the tax code the \"rich\" start at around $65,000 of income per year. It\'s probably true that Rockefeller et al can avoid taxes. But we\'re talking here of a very tiny few.<hr /></blockquote>I understand that the graduated income tax is weighted toward the rich(er). I also understand there are myriad loopholes and deductions of which the richest individuals and corporations tend to take advantage. I don\'t really know how that washes out at the end of the day -- I just didn\'t want to let your \"80%\" figure go by without establishing that there\'s \"more to it\" than that.

Originally posted by Lucas:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Beckers wrote:
\"Why are Iraqi lives considered so much less important than American lives?

If the US invades Iraq, thousands of innocent Iraqis WILL die (by innocent I mean civilians and conscripts). In fact, this isn\'t even a fair swap: definite Iraqi lives against an ALLEGED RISK to American lives from Saddam.\" Iraqi lives are not considered less important than American. I think you have it a little backwards - definite Iraqi lives? There hasn\'t been an invasion. And yes there have been American lives lost - mostly civilians.

If you want to argue that there is no connection between the WTC and Iraq then go ahead and make your point.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe I\'ve missed something -- has a connection between the September 11th attacks and Iraq been reliably established (beyond the \"we can\'t really tell you what we know, but trust us\" assurances of the Bush administration)? (I ask this seriously -- maybe it has been established and I just missed it.) Or are you insisting that we should assume a connection and the burden of proving otherwise falls on those opposed to an attack?

-Shawn

Bruce A. Richardson

10-23-2002, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Lucas:
*****Hitler******[QB]Thread over.

Beckers

10-23-2002, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Lucas:

I am not a supporter of war. Generally, it is evil and unnecessary. However, at times it can prevent future loss of lives and freedom.

OK. To invade Iraq you would really have to believe that future loss of lives would be prevented; I don\'t, I think it would get worse.

Originally posted by Lucas:

In 1939, Neville Chamberlain \"gave\" Hitler Czechoslovakia and patted himself on the back for preventing war. I don\'t want to see that happen again.[/QB]This dangerous analogy keeps being wielded in all manner of disputes, making \"appeasement\" a dirty word. Lucas\' account is emotive and, in fact, incorrect. Hitler was not \"given\" Czechoslovakia. At a four-partite meeting, including Chamberlain, it was agreed to \"reunify\" Sudetenland with Germany. This was an area in Czechoslovakia adjoining the border with Germany, with a majority of ethic Germans who had long campaigned to unify with Germany, after being included in Czechoslovakia following WW 1. Chamberlain patted himself on the back for obtaining a signed agreement with Hitler declaring they would resolve future differences by consultation; this paper was the \"peace in our time\". That was in \'38. Yes, Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia in \'39, which was when Britain and France mobilised and when Hitler invaded Poland they declared war. Should Britain have gone to war earlier? Should the US have invaded Vietnam?

The point is: for God\'s sake don\'t go to war with Iraq because of interpretations of history. Each situation is its own.

J. Whaley

10-24-2002, 03:57 AM

Well I didn\'t mean to get everyone so ticked off. Kobb thanks for sticking up for me. You obviously can see that I would never \"wish\" a terrorist attack on LA. In fact I was simply expressing my frusteration of what in general seems to be a view from the west (LA). I really don\'t hate anyone and I really love peace, I just understand that if we don\'t act then we will be just like Bush Senior and Clinton.... we\'ll let them keep attacking us. There is no peaceful resolution with people who are intent on killing Americans.

I just feel it\'s very unpatriotic to accuse any president (no matter how much you like or dislike them) of \"allowing\" 9-11 to happen. There\'s no way. I\'m sorry to poop on your theories but there\'s just no way.

I have read several sources of connection between Iraq and terror that have no connection with US journalism. There is a very tight connection between UBL (usama Bin laden for whoever it was that asked) and Saddam as well as Yassir Arafat. They have an agreement that anytime the US gets ready to press IRAQ on anything with WMD one of the other groups will raise up and cause a distraction. Just watch the timing of the PLO. I don\'t have time to list my sources right now but I can dig them back out. www.debka.com (\"http://www.debka.com\") provides some good insight.

The bottom line is the US has chosen to accept Israel, and until Israel is no longer aligned with the US, we will always be a target of UBL and the likes. They ARE very actively seeking nukes or a way to kill multiple thousands. We have to do something. You guys don\'t have to agree, but it\'s the truth and in time everyone will see this is in fact how history will pan out...

That\'s all I have to say, I\'m not going to waste anymore time on this simply because I have better things to do images/icons/smile.gif
J-

shawn

10-24-2002, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by J. Whaley:
I just feel it\'s very unpatriotic to accuse any president (no matter how much you like or dislike them) of \"allowing\" 9-11 to happen.Unpatriotism -- the crime of our times.

ryounger

10-24-2002, 10:59 AM

From www.rushlimbaugh.com (\"http://www.rushlimbaugh.com\")

Only The Rich Pay Taxes

Top 50% of Wage Earners Pay 96.09% of Income Taxes

this information is from the IRS http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/00in01rt.xls (\"http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/00in01rt.xls\")

Russ

Deimos

10-24-2002, 12:27 PM

If the rest of the world paid the sort of $$$$ it takes to really fix things, we would take them more seriously in globalpolitik.

Other nations seem to think that because they belong to the UN, and want to prevent any one country from having too much power, the US should submit itself to their authority.

Let\'s see them spend some real money and/or give some real blood. THEN their complaints will really mean something.

Until then, to say that we don\'t care when we act unilaterally is not fair. We DO care, in fact we care so much that we\'ll risk Spain\'s wrath. 500 years ago we wouldn\'t have, but today it\'s a different situation. As it may be again in another 500 years.

Nick Phoenix

10-24-2002, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by J. Whaley:
I just feel it\'s very unpatriotic to accuse any president (no matter how much you like or dislike them) of \"allowing\" 9-11 to happen.

J. Whaley,
I have irrefutible PROOF that he knew. It would be unpatriotic to say nothing. Read THE WAR ON FREEDOM. That will give you an overview. You can get it on amazon.

CONSIDER THIS- When JFK was assasignated, only a few \"crazies\" believed that something was wrong with the official story. Nowadays, a huge percentage of the population believes that there was alot more to the story and L.H. Oswald did not act alone. Time has a habit of exposing the truth. Problem is- nobody cares that much at that point.
Our government has a terrible record of lies and propaganda. How can we continue believing these boys who cry wolf? Why is it that people can accept the scandals of yesterday, but won\'t believe in the ones of today? Why not scrutinize the events of today? Why not go out on a limb, sever party allegiances and try to look at things in a new objective way?

Nick Phoenix

10-24-2002, 06:37 PM

Deimos,
So, because we are the biggest and most powerful nation on earth, that makes us always right. What do all those rinky dink little European nations know? Screw them all. Until they figure out how to economically imprison and dominate the planet like us, they should just shut up.
But, here\'s the real point- We are being LIED to. The US government is not divulging it\'s true motivations for invading Iraq. The lie is so transparent, that anyone who believes it must be sub-mental (O.K. thats a little unfair, it\'s really the media\'s fault). I predict large peace demonstrations in the US, this weekend.

Deimos

10-25-2002, 10:04 AM

Nick, Nick, Nick. I love ya, but you are taking the most extreme interpretation of my statement and making it the cornerstone of your argument. That doesn\'t look particularly strong in terms of logic.

Given your current argument, the USA is guilty and damned no matter what happens or what we do. I don\'t agree with this.

Also, you are not considering the full meaning and motivation behind the complaints of other nations. If they come out on our side, they become a target; meanwhile they know full well that if we don\'t ACT nobody will, and their way of life (international commerce) will never be safe. So they complain, and loudly.

They dare not risk becoming a high-priority enemy of the stateless element.

Nick Phoenix

10-25-2002, 10:18 AM

Deimos,
We are not damned whatever we do. We could allow inspection teams that DID NOT include US spies and let them do their job. According to the former head of the inspection team. The inspections work really well. Love you too.

Maarten Spruijt

10-25-2002, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lucas:
*****Hitler******[QB]Thread over.<hr /></blockquote>images/icons/grin.gif

Now I\'m wondering... has \"Williams\" been added to this list yet or not? images/icons/smile.gif

Nick Phoenix

10-25-2002, 12:45 PM

Ryounger,
Can\'t you see that your simplistic Rush Limbaugh type arguments are very weak. If any of those right wing talk show hosts ever put a real opponent on their shows, they would be destroyed. I am not against corporations per say. But, our founding fathers(those professed friends of the Republican party) actually warned against the powers of large corporations. They insisted that corporations be heavily regulated. This is 200 + years ago. Since Reagan, there has been a big push to marginalize or remove laws that regulate corporations. We have recently seen where that leads us. Are you happy about the fact that every mall looks the same? Do you like living in a polluted environment? Do you like the fact that corporate decisions are made on a profit basis almost exclusively? There are lots of really excellent solutions to the problems we face. There are being blocked by those who stand to profit from doing things the old way. Case and point- You probably haven\'t heard about some of the effective natural cancer cures that exist. They are - apricot pits and cesium. they both have good success rates with very little side effects. But, they have been fought by the most powerful corporations in the world (the pharmaceutical corp.s) That is criminal. This is the world today.
And going back to corporate scandals- They actually began on a large scale under Daddy Bush. The Southern Power company was pulling the same book cooking crap that Enron and others have used. The FBI investigated, because the chief financial officer was keeping a second set of books in the trunk of his car! They were investigated and convicted, but pardoned by Papa Bush. The reason that Bush gave was this- he said that although their methods were unconventional, the accounting firm Arthur Anderson has given the methods their stamp of approval and that\'s good enough for me.
So Ryounger, what you\'ll find is that any REAL indepth factual non-blanket statement argument will uncover some fatal flaws in the positions of the right. Not the Democrats are much better. I believe in capatalism but, it has to be regulated.
George W. and his cronies are lying to you because they think they are doing the best thing for America and you can\'t handle the truth. They think that the number one priority is to secure America as the dominating force in the world. In doing so, they are destroying every thing that America stands for. The worst example being support for ANY regime that is anti-communist or ANY regime that will help American big-buisiness. I would like to hear a REAL argument to my position.

10-25-2002, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Francis Belardino:
You know, I just have to point this out...

A week ago or so, I drop a line in this fourm about my feelings on the DC sniper...

I was saying that I hope when they find him - they fry him!

I wonder how many disagree after 10 deaths and 3 attempts.

What\'s funny to me is that I posted my feelings here and was blasted and look at this topic...

5 pages of non giga topic ... so who will blast, Nick? NOT ME!! Rock on Nick.Francis. I read your post and I agreed with it. I didn\'t post any support because I thought you said everything. It was more than powerful enough to make your point. You left nothing else to say. I just wish they\'d caught him earlier. (I hope that have caught him, and this isn\'t a mistake.)

ryounger

10-25-2002, 01:03 PM

You have some good points Nick, here is my rebuttal.

“But, our founding fathers(those professed friends of the Republican party) actually warned against the powers of large corporations. They insisted that corporations be heavily regulated. This is 200 + years ago. Since Reagan, there has been a big push to marginalize or remove laws that regulate corporations.”

True, but the founding fathers created the three branches of the federal government to provide checks and balances against an overpowering and inflated government. They originally gave the individual States the majority of the power to prevent having a large government that would force its citizens to live in tyranny. (which was the case in Europe at the time.)

Russ

Deimos

10-25-2002, 02:33 PM

Nick, I must hand it to you. Singlehandedly you fend off all comers. I respect your work and the body of reference you have in making these political statements. Your lap-dogs aren\'t nearly as impressive, but that\'s OK too.

You sound wracked with guilt; having a successful business, making money, having hundreds of adoring fans (here and elsewhere) -- the ultimate bourgeois.

Meanwhile you have a crystal-clear image of the world\'s suffering.

The contrast must be quite painful! And I sense that in your posts.

Nick Phoenix

10-25-2002, 03:18 PM

Deimos,
I am not arguing for arguments sake, or to exert some kind of dominance or display of superiority. I am deeply concerned and so I am doing my little part to combat the overwhelming influence of a dishonest media. I am not trying to make anyone feel bad. Let\'s face it, this kind of stuff doesn\'t help my cd sales. Most people probably think I\'m nuts. Anyway, you still haven\'t addressed the issues.

Nick Phoenix

10-25-2002, 03:21 PM

shadowbox

10-25-2002, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Francis Belardino:
A week ago or so, I drop a line in this fourm about my feelings on the DC sniper...

I was saying that I hope when they find him - they fry him!

I wonder how many disagree after 10 deaths and 3 attempts.
I disagree. I am glad they caught him. I wish they could have caught him earlier. I wish they could have got him (them) before it even happened. But I still don\'t think we should \"fry\" him. I am against capitol punishment. I could go into all the usual arguments. But you\'ve heard it all before. I do however respect and completely understand people that feel the way you do.

Nick Phoenix

10-25-2002, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:
You have some good points Nick, here is my rebuttal.

True, but the founding fathers created the three branches of the federal government to provide checks and balances against an overpowering and inflated government. They originally gave the individual States the majority of the power to prevent having a large government that would force its citizens to live in tyranny. (which was the case in Europe at the time.)

RussI am against a large and wasteful government. But we need to regulate corporations and stock trading. We have the proof that this is neccesary. So where\'s the problem. You could get rid of many government agencies, but not these. This is leads us back to the ususal broad blanket statement \"big government\" that is so often used. Imagine trying to solve a math problem. if you only had 2 numbers to work with- big and small. No 1,2,3,4,5, etc., just big and small. That\'s what these kinds of right wing statements do. They condense everything down to a point where they can manipulate you and corral people into a way of thinking that is based on simplistic nonsense. Bush has just created a huge government agency called \"The Office of Homeland Security.\" So what he is saying is \"We were attacked, but it wasn\'t our fault because we didn\'t have big enough government.\"

Also, I found out recently that in Kansas, it was only a few years ago, that they passed a law allowing the teaching of evolution in public schools. So America is really quite an interesting place. Sometimes it takes a long time to change deeply conservative minds, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Deimos

10-25-2002, 07:01 PM

Actually Nick, I agree with some of what you say, especially that regarding corruption. And many other things, actually. But you\'re so partisan in your approach that I feel compelled to balance your political posts (and those of your followers) with a moderate argument of stronger logic and articulation.

So here\'s my take on the complexity. What if it turned out that -- after everyone did the right thing, and used whatever platform they had to raise others\' awareness of the issues, including you -- that society had to make a final decision: either accept corruption (and by extension, all the other problems), or lose our way of life to some oppressive, all-powerful, all-knowing, totalitarian/ubersocialist state. Because that\'s what it would take to provide total coverage of all eventualities, including any strategic knowlege our leaders might have had in \"allowing\" attacks on our country.

EVEN IF THEY DID, a decision would have been made with knowledge you and I don\'t have. And frankly, I\'d rather have a member of the power elite like Bush \"making\" those decisions -- not some wild artiste, no matter his raw intelligence. The mere gleam in his eye tells me his views are too extreme to govern both the majorty AND minorities.

Also, I think you know better than to think that your gigantic Threads of Controversy don\'t stimulate sales. Slipping that in there is more like an admission of its key nature. You only care about these issues enough to post them when you\'re not too busy raking in cash and getting laid. This is very much like modern religion. Only believe what you want to believe, if and only if it supports the endgame you want.

Lucas

10-25-2002, 08:34 PM

I have found this quite an enlightening thread. We are in a rather unique position, getting feedback from different viewpoints and different countries. I believe everyone posting here to be sincere (including those that disagreed with me). I don\'t think there is anyone here with a vested interest because we are all here for another reason. (You know, the \"on-topic\" stuff)

It is very interesting to see peoples\' reactions and responses. Take George W Bush, for example. Based on reading the posts here one might think him a madman bent on world domination. Or one might think he is a leader struggling to protect his people and the other peoples of the world. How do we get such disparate arguments?

I think the media is playing us against each other. It is utterly amazing how a subtle twist of a phrase can change the aspect of something, can instill a strong negative emotional response. It is easy to create a false picture, particularly when the reader does not have a good familiarity with the subject. Newspapers and other writers are quite skilled at this. There is much activism and influencing of opinion done under the guise of reporting.

The media creates dissent and dissatisfaction and believes (whether rightly or wrongly) that it thrives on conflict. It does this purposefully, at least I can\'t come to any other conclusion. Whether its goal is increased sales or some more sinister purpose I won\'t comment on here.

Nick stated somewhere that all the major newspapers are owned by a very few. I believe this is true and I believe it is not limited to the United States.

Nick Phoenix

10-25-2002, 09:07 PM

Deimos,
I didn\'t slip in the comment about sales, someone else mentioned it. I was purely responding. Truly, this stuff has nothing to do with that. I am simply trying to influence people politically as much as I can. Last year, I received 2 emails from folks stating that they would never buy my products again, due to my political views. I don\'t really care, but it never occured to me that I was increasing sales.
Anyway, it was a good discussion. Your last post was kind of enlightening. You have somewhat confirmed my suspicion that maybe Americans do know what a bunch of bastards we are. But, we are too selfish to do anything about it. Our standard of living is top priority.

Ryounger,
In England, for instance, there are 37 independently owned news publications.

Lewis

10-25-2002, 10:27 PM

Nick. I have to agree with all your points. No doubts there.

But could you tell me how much your new and huge samplelibrary will cost? I hope its gonna be 99$ like Samhorns. Anything else would be deadly capitalistic - wouldnt you say?

Hehehe.

Love - Chris

Francis Belardino

10-25-2002, 11:04 PM

You know, I just have to point this out...

A week ago or so, I drop a line in this fourm about my feelings on the DC sniper...

I was saying that I hope when they find him - they fry him!

I wonder how many disagree after 10 deaths and 3 attempts.

What\'s funny to me is that I posted my feelings here and was blasted and look at this topic...

5 pages of non giga topic ... so who will blast, Nick? NOT ME!! Rock on Nick.

ryounger

10-25-2002, 11:54 PM

Hey Nick,
capitalist imprisonment? Do you think that we should live in grass huts, eating nuts? That sounds nice, but we have the best standard of living in the world. You never answer the real question Nick, so I\'ll ask it again.....

Don\'t you think it\'s hypocritical to take money from large world dominating media giants for your work while you criticize how evil the US and capitolism is? You liberals are all the same. You bite the hand that feeds you.

How much money should a person be able to earn in this country? Ralph Nader thinks it is ok to have a small business, but if you get to be large you are en evil corperation.

If you don\'t like living here in the great USA, perhaps Russia or China would be a better place for you. These countries are free from the EVIL corporations that you speak of. Nick, face it the Government is too large and too powerful, the corporations are a result of freedom.

Nice debate though, always a pleasure.
Russ

Munsie

10-28-2002, 08:19 AM

\"You have somewhat confirmed my suspicion that maybe Americans do know what a bunch of bastards we are. But, we are too selfish to do anything about it. Our standard of living is top priority.\"

\"Our standard of living is top priority.\"

QL Brass: $395.00
QL Guitar & Bass: $269.00
QL 56 Stratocaster: $269.00
QL Rare Instruments: $449.00
QL Voices of The Apocalypse GIGA: $449.00
And HOW much for your new library???

Perhap YOUR standard of living is too high?

Your political posts are becoming offensive and I urge the moderator of this board to either REMOVE the political posts or start a new forum here just for politics. But at the least let\'s keep it out of the sample area.

ryounger

10-28-2002, 12:04 PM

Ha Ha, I love it Munsie! Nick the whole point is that you liberals talk and live a totally different philosophy. On one side you think that America is a crummy place with a bunch of robots who don’t give a rip about the poor people, environment, and having a large loving federal government. On the other side you are a successful businessman who pays high taxes, charges high prices for sample libraries and works for large media companies! Come on Nick any comment about this?
It is interesting that we live in one if not the greatest country in human history and people like you are trashing our great nation. If Al Gore were president would he have handled 911 better than George Bush? I don’t think so. You know the real reason that all of you California liberals are bashing the US is because you are still angry that your candidate lost the Presidency, and now it looks like you are going to lose the Senate also.
I totally disagree that the media has a right wing bias. When I was in collage I was closely working with students who were in telecom, and let me tell you that the attitude in collage was anything but conservative. Isn’t it funny that the only conservative journalists seem to be on Fox News?
Aren’t you just a little bit fed up with the incredibly high taxes that seem to go up year after year? Aren’t you sick of every time a politician promises another entitlement that costs a lot of money it doesn’t deliver even a fraction of what is promised? As a businessman, aren’t you fed up with the ongoing taxes that threaten your business every year? Be honest Nick.
I think making the government smaller would be a difficult thing to do, but what if instead of politicians promising the world to people, they spend their time repealing these laws that slowly erode our freedom. Laws are like layers of an onion, they can be pealed off.

Thanks for the debate

Russ

Lewis

10-28-2002, 12:52 PM

Nick - as much as we love your points - you dont answer our questions regarding the pricelevels of your own products. Could you tell us how much your upcoming samplelibrary will cost? Just an estimate. Maybe that will clear things out for us - whether money is an essential factor or not.

Love - Chris

pantonality

10-28-2002, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:
On one side you think that America is a crummy place with a bunch of robots who don?t give a rip about the poor people, environment, and having a large loving federal government.
It is interesting that we live in one if not the greatest country in human history and people like you are trashing our great nation. If Al Gore were president would he have handled 911 better than George Bush?
I totally disagree that the media has a right wing bias. When I was in collage I was closely working with students who were in telecom, and let me tell you that the attitude in collage was anything but conservative. Isn?t it funny that the only conservative journalists seem to be on Fox News?
Aren?t you just a little bit fed up with the incredibly high taxes that seem to go up year after year? Aren?t you sick of every time a politician promises another entitlement that costs a lot of money it doesn?t deliver even a fraction of what is promised?
I think making the government smaller would be a difficult thing to do, but what if instead of politicians promising the world to people, they spend their time repealing these laws that slowly erode our freedom. Laws are like layers of an onion, they can be pealed off.

RussOK, I\'m getting into this thread late, but here goes. Russ, you\'ve brought up some interesting points so I\'ll start with your last then cover a few others.

Taxes vs. Services vs. Debt. Talk about a mess. Everybody seems to think government can be more efficient, but no one\'s been able to actually do it. I wondewr why that is. Instead we pass a tax cut thinking it will help the economy only to watch the opposite happen. The fact is that more than one third of total US government expenditures goes to debt service. I\'m almost convinced that the tax cut was sponsored by major US banks so we\'d stop paying down the principle of our $6 trillion national debt. If you want to make the government more efficient that would be the place to start. Funny thing only democrats voted in Congress to do the fiscally responsible thing (pay down the debt), no doubt hoping to siphon off a few $$$ for programs for the poor. The fact is throwing moeny at problems won\'t solve them, by the same token depriving programs of funding won\'t help them solve problems either.

Someone in this lengthy thread suggested that Iraq, the PLO and Bin Laden were in collusion to distract the US from actions against any one of them. Heck throw Chechnya in there too. I believe it\'s been conclusively proven taht such a connection exists, but my source was 60 Minutes so I could be wrong. However that doesn\'t mean that military action is our only recourse. Someone else mentioned that terrorism is the last resort of the hopeless. Give them hope and their source of human fodder would dry up. Unfortunately, all parties in the Arab Israeli conflict seem to be convinced that an escalating cycle of retaliation will eventually allow them to conclusively win. So just how long does this have to go on before somebody figures out exactly the opposite is true? It\'s only been 50 years! I think Ghandi said it best, \"An eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind.\"

So here\'s a suggestion since I\'m pretty convinced everyone here whether a friend of the right or left wants to see poverty decrease and world economic opportunity increase, give money to the Grameen Bank. Check out this link http://www.grameenbank.org. (\"http://www.grameenbank.org.\") They\'re a nonprofit organization dedicated to providing microcredit in the poorest nations of the world. Governments are not going to solve these problems, they\'re too interested in perpetuating themselves. People can do something tangible.

FYI, I have no connection to the Grameen Bank other than the knowledge that they do good work. They are worthy of your investment.

Steve Chandler

PS. I think Gore would have done an excellent job handling 9/11. He would have distinguished himself as a world leader, not a crazy, selfimportant cowboy from Texas.
PPS. There are media with liberal and conservative bias. The important thing to note is that the media is most definitely NOT unbiased (despite what they\'d have you believe).

10-28-2002, 01:55 PM

Lewis, what has the retail cost of Nick\'s products got to do with any of this? Maybe if he charged less he\'d make more? What difference does that make? He already said he was a capitalist. Yes, he charges too bloody much for his products, but that\'s another thread (and it\'s his business).

Nick, why must you muddy these issues with all of this party political stuff? These guys are right about the left being as bad or worse than the right. I don\'t understand why you have such faith in the left. I can\'t believe Gore would have done any better. Clinton fired missiles at bloody goatherds after being quizzed about his \'fat slag\'.

These are not left/right issues. This about the most powerful \'empire\' the world has ever seen waging war almost exclusively on the poorest people in the world. It\'s about corruption and human rights. It\'s about unthinkable lies and frightening truths too horrible for people to believe. It\'s about using language to make war sound like a playground scuffle.

Those who believe the US should do anything it pleases might want to think beyond the latest \'arse-kicking\'. Imagine what you would do if someone obliterated your family for your own good. What about the aftermath of any (more) unilateral pulverising of the poor? Even if you believe the U.S. to be \'just\' by default, you must consider the consequences. 9/11 already happened as a backlash to U.S. foreign policy. It doesn\'t have to be this way, but violence begets violence.

David Abraham

10-28-2002, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
I have irrefutible PROOF that he knew. It would be unpatriotic to say nothing. Maybe any lawyers here can help, but if he did in fact know this, and did nothing about it even though he could, would that make him an accessory to mass murder? This to me would be -much- more troubling than any other foreign policy issue. Especially in a day and age when an ex-president\'s life is plastered all over media against his wishes, it would seem strange to me that the very next president could exert so much control and influence over the media.

Anyway the message that the current president has direct responsibility for 911 has definitely reached some neighborhoods in the east coast, and we all know how stories morph from person to person, I\'ve heard teenagers assert that he directly ordered the assaults on WTC for some hidden agenda. Whether or not this is true, that is what certain young populations are holding to be the truth.

The issue now is, what is the expected reaction? some may think that a country capable of putting in office an official that is capable of executing such a domestic horror, is a country in serious trouble in which they cannot trust for anything at all...and they may end up taking matters into their own hands...at the least in the name of survival.

As a matter of curiosity I did a Google search for the words \"Clinton and Hussein\", and found much of the same anti-IRAQ rhetoric, concerns, warnings, assertions that GWB is using, so I really do not understand the current political polarization on this issue.

Now matter how I look at it, and without having to take sides, I can only come to one conclusion: The US as it has been known, has been fatally wounded.

-david abraham

Jake Johnson

10-28-2002, 03:18 PM

I\'ve held back on stepping into this fray until now, but when I read someone attacking \"California liberals\" and proclaiming that the presidency was \"lost\" I can\'t refrain from responding.

Except for Britain, the entire free world opposes the attack on Iraq. Everywhere Mr. Bush goes, large demonstations confront him. At some of these demonstrations in the United States, police surround U.S. citizens and herd the into controlled areas where they cannot be seen by the news cameras. I\'m not to sure what to say about the \"loss\" of the election. Mr. Bush, as is well known, lost the popular vote. The Supreme Court, with a conservative majority, ruled that the Florida votes would not be counted again. Recounts conducted by the NY Times and The Wall Street Journal (that bastion of liberalism), concluded that the Florida vote was so extremely close that only several other recounts could have ascertained the actual result. These figures do not take into consideration the thousands of Florida citizens who still claim they were denied their legal right to vote, or the illegal overseas military ballots that were allowed in, despite their having been submitted after the deadline. It was just a coincidence, I suppose, that the Jeb Bush was Governor of the state where these irregularities occured, and that Katherine Harrison, the Florida Secretary of State responsible for certifying the final vote, was Mr. Bush\'s campaign manager? You call that an election?

10-28-2002, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Jake Johnson:

Except for Britain... And remember, that\'s the British Prime Minister; not the people of Britain. That\'s the same Prime Minister who said \"The hand of history is upon my shoulder..\" before he let a bunch of murdering scum out of prison because he was after a Nobel peace prize. The IRA have played him for all he\'s worth. One convicted murderer spent a mere 7 days in prison before good ol\' Tony let him out to build more bombs.

The whole world is against a unilateral attack on Iraq. If we ever get beyond the quasi-religious slogan machine that passes for \'patriotism\' in the U.S., even the people of this country might be against it.

Democracy is about doubt, not faith.

David Abraham

10-28-2002, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by Z6:
And remember, that\'s the British Prime Minister; not the people of Britain. [/QB]are there any published statistics on what the people of Britain (or any other \"free\" Nation) think? and if so, has the prevailing opinion been consistent over time?

-david abraham

10-28-2002, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by David Abraham Fenton:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Z6:
And remember, that\'s the British Prime Minister; not the people of Britain. are there any published statistics on what the people of Britain (or any other \"free\" Nation) think? and if so, has the prevailing opinion been consistent over time?

-david abraham[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>What I was getting at was that the \'people of Britain\' don\'t get a say in it. There is no referendum (as far as I know) planned for it. I don\'t live in Britain but I\'d be surprised if the polls show support for a unilateral attack on Iraq (very surprised). So while claiming \'British support\' is technically correct, the U.S. really has the support of a tiny number of influential individuals in the U.K. (and a lot of opposition - but without power).

I don\'t understand your question about the \'consistency\' of \'prevailing\' opinion.

ryounger

10-28-2002, 04:43 PM

Hi Jake, welcome to the debate.

“I\'ve held back on stepping into this fray until now, but when I read someone attacking \"California liberals\" and proclaiming that the presidency was \"lost\" I can\'t refrain from responding.”

Now Jake I said nothing about the presidency being “lost”.

“Except for Britain, the entire free world opposes the attack on Iraq. Everywhere Mr. Bush goes, large demonstations confront him. At some of these demonstrations in the United States, police surround U.S. citizens and herd the into controlled areas where they cannot be seen by the news cameras.”

The problem with Iraq is that they are creating weapons of mass destruction which is a violation of the treaty set forth by the Golf War. This has been done eleven times. We tried to send in UN inspection teams to no avail. Saddam Hussein is a tin horn dictator who has it in HIS will to conquer the entire Middle East. After 9/11 we cannot tolerate such actions. Also there have to be areas where protesters are allowed and not allowed. After the riots at the WTO in Seattle a few years back you should be more sympathetic to what an uncontrolled mob can do.

“I\'m not to sure what to say about the \"loss\" of the election. Mr. Bush, as is well known, lost the popular vote. The Supreme Court, with a conservative majority, ruled that the Florida votes would not be counted again. Recounts conducted by the NY Times and The Wall Street Journal (that bastion of liberalism), concluded that the Florida vote was so extremely close that only several other recounts could have ascertained the actual result. These figures do not take into consideration the thousands of Florida citizens who still claim they were denied their legal right to vote, or the illegal overseas military ballots that were allowed in, despite their having been submitted after the deadline. It was just a coincidence, I suppose, that the Jeb Bush was Governor of the state where these irregularities occured, and that Katherine Harrison, the Florida Secretary of State responsible for certifying the final vote, was Mr. Bush\'s campaign manager? You call that an election?”

Most Democrats will not admit the loss of the election, but here is how it went. In our country there is one representative from each state that votes for the President. Since each state gets a vote there are 50 such votes possible. This allows smaller states like Montana and Idaho equal representation to states like New York or California. This group is called the Electoral Collage. In florida that vote was cast for Bush. The election had to end sometime, we can’t have a country without a president, so a decision had to be made. Oh by the way, even after the count done by the Associated Press, and USA Today, Bush still won the election.
In Florida a Democratically controlled election committee produced the butterfly ballot used in the 2000 election. So who is really at fault here, Jeb Bush? Hmmmmm, no. How about the stupid people who can’t figure out how to use a simple voting machine? No. How about the Democratic committee that invented the ballot layout in the first place? “you answer that one.”

My point still stands, if the election of 2000 weren’t just behind us, or if Al Gore were president, and he wanted to invade Iraq, half of the protesting that is going on wouldn’t be. You are sore about the election, and you are playing it up as politics. It’s kind of like the longshoreman strike, the Unions wanted to shore up some more votes, so they decided that they would make the economy worse than it already is. It’s hard to feel sorry for workers that make six figures a year.

Russ

Nick Phoenix

10-28-2002, 04:46 PM

O.K.
Some of you don\'t read well. I do not consider the Democratic party as left. There is no left wing remaining. Z6 is right that this issue is getting clouded with talk of left and right. That\'s probably my fault. As far as me being another oppressive capatalist- you might be right. But, truthfully I don\'t feel bad about creating something, selling it, and making some money (much less than all you cowboys think). I am not directly oppressing any workers and I feel I am offering something valuable. I also feel that movies are not the big problem with the media. It is the news coverage. I got more politically out of a mediocre Hollywood movie called \"Changing Lanes\" than I have from the news last year. Many of you have been programmed by the television. There isn\'t really any chance of us having a real discussion, until you start reading. Everything you know is wrong. If I hear one more moronic big government argument, I\'m going to throw up. George W. is the biggest spender this country has ever seen. He\'s making a record amount of expensive bombs and other military technology and creating a new gigantic agency called the office of Homeland Security. Why doesn\'t Rush yell about that? Why? -because he is a liar and a dispicable greedy, fascist pig. I am not saying that all republicans are as bad as him. He knows what he is doing. You are all misinformed.

David Abraham

10-28-2002, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Z6:
[QUOTE]
I don\'t understand your question about the \'consistency\' of \'prevailing\' opinion.sorry about that, I was wondering if there were published statistics using different samplings available over time, because we see how public opinion can change dramatically based on events that occur. So what may have been true a month ago may not be true today. Government officials don\'t have the luxury to predict what opinion their voting public will have in the future, so it\'s a very difficult job to make contingency plans.

If tomorrow for example there is the revelation of 100% compelling evidence that a particular nation is able, willing and preparing to attack the US (even if it\'s justifiable) then of course the population will dramatically change their mind, and government officials will be expected to act accordingly...and they will have been expected to have known, and been prepared all along.

In other words I think it\'s an impossible job.

Still I don\'t think anyone of us can really speak for other populations, and what they -really -think. Tough game we are in here...

-david abraham

David Abraham

10-28-2002, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
You are all misinformed.Quite possibly images/icons/smile.gif

You may have mentioned this already, if so I\'m sorry I missed it, but what is your recipe for adequately addressing current issues related to world terrorism and national security?

-david abraham

ryounger

10-28-2002, 05:35 PM

Hi Nick.

“Some of you don\'t read well. I do not consider the Democratic party as left.”

I know how to read just fine, it seems like you might have the problem. The democratic party is not left? Then what are the Republicans? It’s been awhile since I heard the phrase “liberal Republican”

“There is no left wing remaining. Z6 is right that this issue is getting clouded with talk of left and right. That\'s probably my fault.”

Well you did start the debate.

“As far as me being another oppressive capatalist- you might be right. But, truthfully I don\'t feel bad about creating something, selling it, and making some money”

Your left wing views have betrayed you Nick. It’s OK to stride to be successful. It’s OK to try to excel in your work. That is freedom Nick. You are doing yourself an injustice if you feel ashamed for all of the hard work that you have put into your career. The Liberal Elate doesn’t want you to succeed, they wish to grow the government and put as many people into entitlement programs as they can. You have worked hard for what you have, as well I have also. Don’t you think that it’s time that your political views coincide with your life choices? Let the people who live on government welfare complain that their checks are too low. In this country everybody has the freedom to succeed, given hard work, dedication, and discipline.

“much less than all you cowboys think”

Well, I am from the Northwest, so I guess cowboy will fit.

Ok, here we go. You say
“I also feel that movies are not the big problem with the media. It is the news coverage.”

Yup (cowboy talk) You’re close. But close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Political opinion is in everything. It’s in music, movies and now the news itself. Tom Brokaw thinks that we are too stupid to be able to interpret the news for ourselves, so he always has to put his liberal 2 cents in. The next sentence will prove my point.

“I got more politically out of a mediocre Hollywood movie called \"Changing Lanes\" than I have from the news last year.”

Yup, there it is, no politics in the movies. (spits tobacco)

And now for the coup d’ gracie
“Many of you have been programmed by the television.”

Don’t tell me you didn’t watch Saturday morning cartoons as a kid!

“There isn\'t really any chance of us having a real discussion, until you start reading.”

I don’t know Nick, it looks like you go to the movies. 

“Everything you know is wrong.”

Does this mean that I’m not invited to the Halloween party!! (spits tobacco)

Later
Russ

Lewis

10-28-2002, 11:17 PM

One sign of freedom is the sign of information.

Let me ask you all a few questions to check up your current knowledge:

1. How many people died in Afghanistan during the war?

2. What country in the world has ACTUALLY used the a-bomb and why does this country FEAR that others would use it?

3. How many people died during the golf war?

4. Why did over 1 million civilians from Vietnam pay with their lives?

AND - did the US cont acts of war during Republican or Democratical presidency?

Answer these questions please!

Arh!? You cant!? Why!? Mind you. These are simple questions? How many people died? You dont know!?

Then think again before you misread Nicks statements. I fear he is on the right path my brothers - and I am joining him on that path. Its all about information. The less we get, the less we know.

Love from Chris

Nick Phoenix

10-28-2002, 11:25 PM

Quick remove the offensive posts before someone reads them. Nothing like a little censorship to boost our confidence in our Democracy. Munsie, I realize you are from Texas, and perhaps like George W. But, if you take a step back and look at the facts, you might change your mind. The whole world is scared of George W. That might possibly include our moderators, who live in Canada and perhaps are privy to slightly more objective news coverage.

Nick Phoenix

10-29-2002, 12:13 AM

Russ,
I think I am done with this argument for a while. You haven\'t really addressed any of the issues I brought up with any real factual answers. You\'re just taunting me. Think I\'ll get back to work.

P.S. You are still invited to the Halloween Party. I know of atleast one other Republican who will be there. He doesn\'t believe in evolution. You 2 should have a lot to talk about.

JohnGrant

10-29-2002, 02:58 AM

Wow... Missed the whole debate! Agree with Nick & Z6 totally.

I see two BIG fallacies in the pro-Bush line.

Fallacy #1: The excluded middle (sometimes called the fallacy of the \"false disjunction\" or the \"false dichotomy.\"

Example: \"Either Mrs. Brown\'s hair is orange or it is blue. It is not orange. Therefore it must be blue.\" The argument assumes (falsely) that there are only two alternatives. Rule out one and only the other remains. A rhetorical slight of hand designed to fool weak-minded folk.

Here\'s the same fallacy, but in a much more elaborate guise:

either accept corruption (and by extension, all the other problems), or lose our way of life to some oppressive, all-powerful, all-knowing, totalitarian/ubersocialist state.

Nice try. There are other roads not travelled.

Fallacy #2: Ad hominem argument. Familiar? Yup. But sometimes hard to spot.

Example: \"Mr. Smith says clean air laws are killing the lumber business in our town. Mr. Smith\'s a Republican Bigot, so I wouldn\'t believe anything he has to say.\"

Obviously Mr. Smith\'s political bent has nothing to do with the truth (or falsity) of his statement that clean air laws kill the lumber business.

Example #2 (more subtle version of the fallacy):

Nick\'s a successful small \"c\" capitalist, so I wouldn\'t trust anything he has to say about politics.

Obviously whatever Nick\'s successes or failures as a budding capitalist, they\'ve got nothing whatever to do with the truth (or lack thereof) of his political points of view.

jg

David Abraham

10-29-2002, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by JohnGrant:
[
Nice try. There are other roads not travelled.
[/QB]what are they?

US government is screwed up yes, what\'s new? So is every other government it seems.

In the US, people in government are extracted from the population, as ugly as it is, it represents who we are, and what we\'ve become. Just funny how when all this is reflected in one man, \"the president\" we don\'t like what we see, which is us. Replace Bush with Gore, Carter, Nixon whoever...it would be the same old pandamonium. Travel to any other nation and listen to them talk about their own government, same old pandamonium. If the US weren\'t a super power, some other nation would be, and yep it would be the same old pandamonium.

-david abraham

Simon Ravn

10-29-2002, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by ryounger:
It is interesting that we live in one if not the greatest country in human history and people like you are trashing our great nation.

RussI just read this and HAD to interfere. WHY is it that SO many Americans have this conception that their country is the best country in the world? I hear that over and over again from Americans. My question would be: So, how many countries did you actually try living in for a longer period? Oh.. thought so - so how do you know that America is so damn great??

Beckers

10-29-2002, 10:23 AM

What is for sure is that tha US is the most powerful nation in history, in terms of military and economic might, global reach and unaccountability.

In the UK and Europe many of us are seeing the growth of US power with increasing trepidation. What is worrying is the apparent willingness of the current administration to use this power with an unclear agenda and with apparent disregard for the consequences.

The US has never been more powerful and could act unilaterally with impunity. The other big nations, previously able to subject and control empires, retained little significant military capability after WW11, except the USSR. The Cold War ensured that European nations kept a powerful influence in their position as buffers between the superpowers. Other, “weak”, non-aligned nations needed to be “courted” by the superpowers in the atmosphere of bilateral paranoia. Since the end of the cold war and the demise of the USSR, the US does not need seek anyone’s approval.

The Balkan conflicts have shown that Europe does not function as a single military power. As a substitute for power these nations prefer to have everyone live under and stick to international laws.

The threat that Iraq poses is relative. The perception of this threat by any nation, (and certainly the response to it), is related to the strength of that nation. (This is human psychology. If I had a gun I would be much less likely to accept, as part of life, the threat from the large black cat, that has been sighted in the hills around us).

Everyone understands how aggrieved Americans must feel over 9/11. However this empathy does not translate into a debt of blind allegiance, unless it is clear that US action is immediately necessary self defence. Nick Phoenix\'s posts further increases my apprehension about that.

How responsibly will an un-worldsavvy Bush, with blinkered hawks like Cheyney, Rumsfeld and Rice use this immense power? \"If you have a hammer in your hand, everything looks like nails\" (Twain); one of these nails may turn out to be a detonating pin.

PeterRoos

10-29-2002, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:

I think this is the real question. In the United States people move here because they want to live in a free nation, where success to an individual is not dictated by the will of a government entity. We are free because of the sacrifice of those who believe that all people should be free. There are more people living in free countries here in Europe than in the USA.

Stop this silly \"US is the most free country in the world\" nonsense. You are insulting hundreds of millions with this arrogance.

Post nr. 100 images/icons/tongue.gif

Wise people know they can spend their money only once. Bush should be pressed to first pay his \"open invoices\" from the U.N. for peace projects, and then see if he has some money left for his war hobbies.

JohnGrant

10-29-2002, 12:36 PM

Gosh, there are so many myths floating around out there.... Warning: parental guidance recommended...

Myth: \"Iraq has or is attempting to build weapons of mass destruction.\"

Reality: According to at least one US weapons inspector Iraq\'s got diddley, nada, nothin -- well, except the world\'s second largest supply of OIL. Weapons of mass destruction? I think most of them are in US hands, well, not most of them, practically ALL of them. (Who helped Saddam make the nerve gas used on the Kurds? And who failed to significantly protest when they did?)

Myth: \"US is the greatest, kindest, and most generous nation on earth.\"

Reality: The list of countries the US has invaded, politically undermined, and bombed into oblivion speaks for itself. Oh, yes, and how about that 17% of the US population--Afro-Americans--yah, great record there: check out statistics on numbers of Blacks executed, on social welfare, in jails, with no education, with no jobs etc., etc., and I\'m talking 2002, not pre-civil rights movement.

Myth: \"The greatness of a nation lies in its corporate and military strength.\"

Reality: Sure, in those terms the US is indeed the \"greatest.\" But I\'d prefer to raise standards just a tad: say define \"greatness\" in terms health, education, childcare, maternity benefits, crime and incarceration rates, participation in the democratic process, for starters. On these measures, the US is WAY down on the list. I mean WAY WAY down. Countries like Canada, Sweden, Denmark, and Germany are WAY ahead of the game. Geeze, even totalitarian Cuba has a more literate population and much lower infant mortality rates than the good ol\' USA.

What good is all that liberty if it\'s in THEORY--in MYTH-- only???

Don\'t get me wrong. I\'m not anti-American. I LOVE the place and have spent loads of time and money there. All my closest friends live down there. Much of my family\'s American. And guess what, they\'d go much further than I do in condemning what\'s happening in the US nowadays. There totally fed up--fighting a rear-guard action for some kind of social change from their gated communities.

J. Grant
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")

csduke

10-29-2002, 12:51 PM

A few simple points for perspective.

First Point: All nations since Sumaria (3rd millennium BC.) up until today have acted in their self-interest 99.9 to 100% of the time. This is true for both the big and small, powerful and not.

Second Point: As the history of world superpowers go, the U.S. is as tame as the world has ever seen (note the histories of Germany, England, Spain, France, Russia, China, Rome, Sparta, Florence, Persia, ....). Just for fun, perform a comparative analysis of the conduct of the Soviet Union and the United States post-WWII (take special note of Eastern Europe).

Final Point: While we can and should apply our local morality to the conduct of our governments, it would be silly to expect them to drop the historical conduct of world and local superpowers just because we are in the 21st century.

Superpowers act the way they do because they can.

Slightly off my point:
Imagine a Syrian/Saudi/Iranian/Iraqi/... government with a nuclear arsenal like the U.S.\'s or England\'s or Russia\'s. Just imagine.

ryounger

10-29-2002, 12:57 PM

Hey Simon.
“If they move there, it is usually because of work opportunities etc - then they\'ll have to deal with all the crap going on in the US as a downside to their relocation - it\'s not like they move there because they think it\'s paradise.”

My point exactly, they move here because we have better opportunities than in Europe. Tell me, is my patriotism to the United States any different than the socal elitism that is there in Europe?

“WHY should Iraq just COMPLY to any resolutions, that the US deem necessary to force on the U.N.? What makes the US a nation that have the power to rule over other countries? What if Europe decided that we wanted all civil hand weapons in the US turned over? Would you comply?”

I believe the UN inspection teams were voted in by the UN. Their attempts at a peaceful resolution failed eleven times. We are not going to rule Iraq when we take Hussein out of power. You obviously do not understand US foreign policy. After WWII did we take over Europe? Did we take over Japan? Perhaps the situation is reverse of what you think, perhaps Europe is trying to place its Socialist agenda on the US.

“And to think that the wealth of The West (and very much the US) is built upon their sufferings is not such a far fetched idea is it. The West are exploiting the under-developed countries - no doubt about that. I am sure your coffee would be a lot more expensive if the brazilians were paid fairly for the product. If McDonalds could manufacture their burgers in Asia or Southamerica and teleport them to their customers on the fly, you can bet that they would do it.”

First, are you implying that the third world would be better off if there were no industries from the west providing jobs and income for these people? Have you not purchased a product that was mad outside of Denmark? Don’t worry, I think that McDonald’s uses Idaho potatoes in their French fries. By the way, we have sanctions against Iraq, so I don’t think us capitalist pigs are using them. I believe it’s your friends the Russians who are buying oil from them. We seem to give a lot more aid to third world countries than Denmark, perhaps its time for Europe to pay their fair share.

“Oh, and the US dont have those weapons? Should Europe or Russia nuke you then?? Just to make sure you don\'t do anything stupid - like attacking Iraq? And uhm... maybe we should investigate where much of Iraq\'s technology comes from - it is REAAAALLY unlikely that the US sold anything useful to Iraq isnt it?”

The deal is that without the US your economy would go down the toilet. It’s funny isn’t it? You hate our country, but if we were gone you would see a depression twice as severe as the one in the 30’s. But seriously, if your country is placing the US in the same position as a country led by a tin horn dictator who murders his own citizens, than perhaps the school system in Denmark needs some reform.

Time for lunch. Sorry I can’t answer the rest right now

Russ

10-29-2002, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:

How many times has the British empire taken another poor defencless country by force in order to have economic gain? I don’t think you have much room to talk here. So at least you admit that that is what\'s happening then?

It is quite clear what is going on here. There is a section of the world that is jealous of what we have in the west. (This includes the UK). They are a poor and desperate people that are living the same way that they were a thousand years ago. Are they really? But they didn\'t have little arrogant sshhiittss firing missiles at them then, did they? So it is a little different. Where on earth do you get your information? A \'poor and desperate people\'? Who? THEY? THEY? Is that it? THEY? Even if THEY were \'living the same way they were a thousand years ago\' (which is about as ignorant and bigoted a statement I\'ve seen on this thread) what\'s it to you? How dare you. A thousand years ago THEY had a sophisticated culture with great seats of learning and advanced technologies while much of the West was living in its own dung heap. THEY are jealous? They are jealous of YOU? Why would anyone anywhere be jealous of YOU?

Since they think that we are the Great Satin, it is very frightening what they could do with a little bit of ingenuity and a willingness to sacrifice themselves. We gave Iraq eleven years to comply with the UN inspections. There are few excuses left. Sometimes a preemptive strike can save the lives of millions. They think you are the great Satin? Not the great Velvet? YOU gave Iraq 11 years? YOU? Few excuses left? THEY? This is ludicrous. \'Sometimes a pre-emptive strike can save the lives of millions\'? Can it really? So why hasn\'t Saddam attacked the US? Why didn\'t he use the only weapons of mass destruction he owned (those given by the US when he was a \'friend\' killing millions of people). Saddam is not Iraq. The people of Iraq are not Saddam. You frighten me. You are Amereekah, and you frighten all of us in the rest of the world and you probably even frighten many of your own people. You bet it\'s frightening what people can do when they\'re willing to sacrifice themselves, and you might want to think about that before YOU go raining their anger down on ME.

Approval for what? Should we just sit by while France, China, and Russia think about it? Should we wait until some smallpox is released in a large city to act? Sould we wait until an entire city is nuked before we act? Why does waiting lead inevitably to disaster? Yes. Yes. Yes, YOU should wait. That is what the UN is supposed to be for. Smallpox? What is all this stuff about smallpox? Where did it come from? Why doesn\'t the U.S. just attack everyone and get it over with? Maybe that\'s really what you want after all. Everyone is a threat, are they not? Kill them all. It\'ll be harder on the conscience to kill Europeans, but you can start with all the bugs in the middle east, then wait until the French pee you off and then kill them too; bunch of frogs; they deserve to die. What if they want to attack us? It could happen. Best to be on the safe side; pre-emptive: that\'ll save millions. After YOU\'ve killed everyone else, you might want to check out your next door neighbor though, doesn\'t he look a bit shifty to YOU? Didn\'t he once grow a beard? What if he has a vial of smallpox hidden in his codpiece?

Originally posted by ryounger:

More jellousy of American power.
Yeah, everyone\'s jealous of Amereekah.

Originally posted by ryounger:

Right, as the gun holder, the US is in a better position to beat the black cat. (Iraq).
Does that mean that we should be fair to the black cat and give them a gun?
But YOU already did. Just as YOU gave the Taliban its guns. Now YOU\'re complaining?

Originally posted by ryounger:

So what happens the next time a 9/11 incident occurs? Should we just sit back because a bunch of liberals hate the current president?
Of course not. YOU should drop bombs on people. YOU teach them. Pick a country - any country. Just show THEM that YOU mean business.

You might want to actually launch an investigation into it though, but that would be crazy, no? WE know who\'s responsible, don\'t WE? THEY\'re responsible. If it happens again we must use nuclear and biological weapons though, we\'ve hardly had a chance to test anything lately. Since we had to stop releasing spores into San Fransisco bay (they kept killing those pesky kidney patients) and detonating nuclear bombs in Nevada (a few scorpions and some old geezers claiming WE gave them cancer; sure. Like, WE gave them cancer; like it wasn\'t cause they smoked and all.)

No Russ. Don\'t sit; back. YOU go at \'em guns \'a blazin\'. YOU teach \'em Russ. There\'s nothing like a few thousand dead grannies to teach a dictator who\'s boss. YOU\'re the boss, Russ. YOU\'re the boss. Bloody liberals. How dare they \'hate\' the president. Pity we can\'t design a bomb that only kills liberals and arab-bugs?

JohnGrant

10-29-2002, 01:14 PM

Re: \"Superpowers\": I\'ve never understood why, in terms of industrial and military strength, the Soviet Union was put in the same basket as the US. Reality is that with the exception of certain aspects of their space program they were always well behind the US both industrially and militarily.

J Grant
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")

shadowbox

10-29-2002, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ryounger:
It is interesting that we live in one if not the greatest country in human history and people like you are trashing our great nation.

RussI just read this and HAD to interfere. WHY is it that SO many Americans have this conception that their country is the best country in the world? I hear that over and over again from Americans. My question would be: So, how many countries did you actually try living in for a longer period? Oh.. thought so - so how do you know that America is so damn great??<hr /></blockquote>Simon, I will try to answer. First off, let me say that I agree with you that these statements come off as arrogant and jingoist. But I don\'t think that is most Americans intent. It\'s really an innocent statement. You have to understand that from the time we are in grade school there are certain things we learn over and over throughout our education:

-The U.S. is the birthplace of democracy
-We helped to end 2 World Wars. (Especially WW2, which most historians agree would have been very different for Europe if not for US involvement)
-Millions of people left their home countries to come to America (and still do everyday)
-We have a free press
-We have freedom of speech
-We have freedom of religion

There are other non-political things. This country really is beautiful and diverse. Great beaches, mountains, forests, deserts, tropical, etc. And we are blessed with some of the best farm land in the world. Also, we have a great system of universities.

We have an over-abundance of choice. Most people have 100s of TV channels, live within minutes of huge shopping centers, and movie theaters with 10 or more movies to choose from in state of the art theaters. For some people, this is what makes a country \"great.\"

There is a general feeling that in America you can do anything you want. If you can dream it you can achieve it. You can start in the mail room and end up in the board room.

You asked WHY Americans have the conception that their country is the best country in the world. This is WHY.

This myth started hundreds of years ago when John Bunyan wrote \"Pilgrim\'s Progress\" and spoke of \"streets paved in gold.\" In reality, there is no best country in the world. Americans should be proud of what our country has achieved. However, they should be aware of the bad things we have done and realize that not everyone will feel the same way they do. Also, many of the things we enjoy about our country are not exclusive to America.

There is a fine line between patriotism and jingoism.

shadowbox

10-29-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by JohnGrant:
Re: \"Superpowers\": I\'ve never understood why, in terms of industrial and military strength, the Soviet Union was put in the same basket as the US. Reality is that with the exception of certain aspects of their space program they were always well behind the US both industrially and militarily.
And yet they still had (have) the ability to blow the world up many times over. I think that qualifies them as a Superpower.

Simon Ravn

10-29-2002, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:
Hey Simon.
“If they move there, it is usually because of work opportunities etc - then they\'ll have to deal with all the crap going on in the US as a downside to their relocation - it\'s not like they move there because they think it\'s paradise.”

My point exactly, they move here because we have better opportunities than in Europe. Tell me, is my patriotism to the United States any different than the socal elitism that is there in Europe?

Better opportunities in some areas yes. Having said that, there ARE US people moving to Europe, Japan etc - but I am SURE you know that, as a well educated American....

If the patriotism is different? oh yeah it is. All this nationalism makes me sick. Just about every American seem to be so PROUD they are an American. C\'mon - what did you DO to become an American? Yes - you happened to come out of a vagina in that country. It\'s geography - get over it. You don\'t decide where you\'re born so I don\'t get it.

“WHY should Iraq just COMPLY to any resolutions, that the US deem necessary to force on the U.N.? What makes the US a nation that have the power to rule over other countries? What if Europe decided that we wanted all civil hand weapons in the US turned over? Would you comply?”

I believe the UN inspection teams were voted in by the UN. Their attempts at a peaceful resolution failed eleven times. We are not going to rule Iraq when we take Hussein out of power. You obviously do not understand US foreign policy.
Of course you wouldn\'t have any interest in taking over Iraq - I didn\'t say that.

“And to think that the wealth of The West (and very much the US) is built upon their sufferings is not such a far fetched idea is it. The West are exploiting the under-developed countries - no doubt about that. I am sure your coffee would be a lot more expensive if the brazilians were paid fairly for the product. If McDonalds could manufacture their burgers in Asia or Southamerica and teleport them to their customers on the fly, you can bet that they would do it.”

First, are you implying that the third world would be better off if there were no industries from the west providing jobs and income for these people? Have you not purchased a product that was mad outside of Denmark?
No I am saying that if we paid those countries fair prices for the products, they would be a lot better off - of course that would mean that we would have to cut down on the welfare etc. - and not many people would want to do that, prolly myself included. And of course I buy lot of products which wasn\'t made here. Everything else would be pretty impossible.

We seem to give a lot more aid to third world countries than Denmark, perhaps its time for Europe to pay their fair share.
Ahhh are you so sure about that. I know that Denmark gives 1% of its BNP (is BNP english too? Dunno) to un-developed countries. AFAIK that is the highest in the world. Now you go and find the US figure.

The deal is that without the US your economy would go down the toilet. It’s funny isn’t it? You hate our country, but if we were gone you would see a depression twice as severe as the one in the 30’s. But seriously, if your country is placing the US in the same position as a country led by a tin horn dictator who murders his own citizens, than perhaps the school system in Denmark needs some reform.
Ignorance on display. Do you really believe that yourself? We have a much greater export than import of goods here - and I don\'t think a very big percentage of our export goes to the US. The thing is that just about all countries in the world need eachother for trade purposes. If the US was suddenly wiped off the map, I think we would do fine. Actually we could start whole new businesses in Europe, which had traditionally been US. The same if Europe was suddenly gone - it would be a blow to the US export, but you\'d find new markets and re-organize your businesses etc. Again you have displayed the kind of ignorance which makes so many Europeans critical of the US.

Simon Ravn

10-29-2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by shadowbox:

-The U.S. is the birthplace of democracy
-We helped to end 2 World Wars. (Especially WW2, which most historians agree would have been very different for Europe if not for US involvement)
-Millions of people left their home countries to come to America (and still do everyday)
-We have a free press
-We have freedom of speech
-We have freedom of religion
Do you also learn that you have:

-Corrupt government/political system - whoever has the most money, get the prize.
-Corrupt/crooked/ridiculous legal system
-Racism in the police force.
-An extreme amount of murders going on, due to a great, liberal hand weapons law.
-A middle aged prison system (people in stribed pajamas, wearing chains, locked away behind bars, death penalty etc).
-Very low knowledge about what\'s going on in the rest of the world, prolly due to the fantastic school system.
-Tons of people living in the streets etc., with no money or anything - very low social security.
-A crazy president.
-The worlds highest CO2 polution, and no intention to do anything about it.
-....

?

There is a general feeling that in America you can do anything you want. If you can dream it you can achieve it. You can start in the mail room and end up in the board room.

Yes - and do you really believe that is any different in any other Western country??

Deimos

10-29-2002, 01:56 PM

We have a way of life to protect.

And, we\'re the greatest nation because we have some of each and every nation/ethnicity in the world. That lineup includes some of the worst of the worst, but also the best of the best, and all points in between. Those minds and bodies together form our policies, through the vehicle of our elected officials. For example, we wouldn\'t be who we are if not for the Danes who came here, as well as the Chinese and everyone else.

Governing other nations is so much easier because they\'re smaller and have a much more homogenous racial profile. Could you imagine a culture of suicide bombings, in a country full of every race imaginable? Smile, ye foreigners, as we despair.

It\'s not perfect, but it\'s the best we have so far.

It just so happens that our brand of democracy is the best incubator of international trade and commerce.

Those ugly things that happen, occur because we are imperfect beings in an imperfect world. Those who don\'t like ugly things, try to be a good person as you live your life. Do the right thing. If we all did that, even where our interests conflict, the world would be a better place.

shadowbox

10-29-2002, 02:02 PM

shadowbox

10-29-2002, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by shadowbox:
Do you also learn that you have:

-Corrupt government/political system - whoever has the most money, get the prize.
-Corrupt/crooked/ridiculous legal system
-Racism in the police force.
-An extreme amount of murders going on, due to a great, liberal hand weapons law.
-A middle aged prison system (people in stribed pajamas, wearing chains, locked away behind bars, death penalty etc).
-Very low knowledge about what\'s going on in the rest of the world, prolly due to the fantastic school system.
-Tons of people living in the streets etc., with no money or anything - very low social security.
-A crazy president.
-The worlds highest CO2 polution, and no intention to do anything about it.
-....

?
[qb] [QUOTE]
There is a general feeling that in America you can do anything you want. If you can dream it you can achieve it. You can start in the mail room and end up in the board room.

Yes - and do you really believe that is any different in any other Western country??<hr /></blockquote>Simon, take it easy. I said I agreed with you. I was trying to give you a valid explanation why Americans think they live in the greatest country. I said it was a myth. At the same time, I am proud to be an American, just as you are proud to be from Denmark.

Simon Ravn

10-29-2002, 02:19 PM

Simon, take it easy. I said I agreed with you. I was trying to give you a valid explanation why Americans think they live in the greatest country. I said it was a myth. At the same time, I am proud to be an American, just as you are proud to be from Denmark.Good. I just didn\'t read it quite that way. Anyway, this means something should be done to the educational system, since I have just witnessed another guy posting here, that America is the best country in the world....

And no, I am not really PROUD of being from Denmark. I like it here, but I am sure I would like lots of places just as well or better. I was just lucky not to have been born in Ethiopia or such.

shadowbox

10-29-2002, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:

I am not really PROUD of being from Denmark. I like it here, but I am sure I would like lots of places just as well or better. I was just lucky not to have been born in Ethiopia or such.This is interesting. There is something about American culture (not necessarily our educational system) that teaches us to be proud of our country. It\'s part of what being an \"American\" is all about. I think this is what most people hate about americans. And while I don\'t think people should shove their patriotism down the throats of others, I think Americans have a right to be proud. Not that we are the best country in the world. Ans not that we have never done anything wrong. But that we have done some really good things too.

pantonality

10-29-2002, 02:52 PM

Hi All,

I am an American, though I think I\'d feel better right now saying, \"Ich bin ein Berliner.\"

Chris Knight was exactly right discussing why Americans think they live in the best country in the world. He was also right about the painful ignorance of many of us regarding the rest of the world. Despite all the information we have available to us here in \"the states\" you have to look to find information about other countries. The unfortunate fact (and it\'s being exhibited here in abundance) is that many of us believe what we see and hear on TV.

The poster who mentioned that western wealth is built on the backs of the 3rd world was on the mark. The world economic boom of the 90s was fueled by cheap energy. Too bad energy is not so cheap anymore so the economy stumbles. That\'s why Bush wants to make war with Iraq. It finishes business with Hussein, but it gets the US in position to grab energy resources. So instead of simply lifting sanctions (couldn\'t figure out how to do it in good conscience) he\'ll send US kids into harms way. And in case you\'re thinking Afghanistan doesn\'t have oil, you\'re right, but just north of there is a large field of it. The problem is getting it out. So take over plant a friendly regime in Afghanistan and Pakistan and build a pipeline. These are all exercises of US power and there are plenty more to choose from.

The problem is that we view the exercise of US power to control world resources to our benefit as legitimate. The exercise of US power simply because no one can stop us isn\'t going to endear the US to the rest of the world. So why are we surprised when some of them collect weapons of mass destruction or use terrorism? They know they can\'t win in a head to head battle with the US, so they do what they can. Funny enough they do exactly what the US did when in our revolutionary past we couldn\'t take the British on. So how many of you proud Americans can tell me about the battle of Lexington and Concord, at least show your knowledge of American History by telling me what state it was in. We\'ve managed to legitimize terrorist acts in our revolutionary past, why shouldn\'t terrorisrt acts against us be equally legitimate? (donning flame retardant suit)

The fact is these issues aren\'t going to go away simply because the US declares war on terrorism. We may end up losing like our British bretheren did 220 some years ago. The model of international diplomacy that worked in the past needs to change. I mentioned before that Ghandi said, \"An eye for an eye, just makes the whole world blind.\" Some of you \"get it,\" but unfortunately for some of us the desire to feel superior is greater than our desire to actually resolve the issues. The really sad fact is it\'s not just Americans that feel that way. That\'s why the problems won\'t be easy to solve.

History simple doesn\'t care what happens to the human race. This rock will continue to circle the sun for another 5 billion years or so no matter what happens to the people on it. Only humans control their own fate and that\'s the problem. I understand that we all want to solve these problems, but if you think violence will do it, you\'re only part of the problem.

Lest anyone think I\'m a namby pamby liberal I was awarded a 1rst Dan Black Belt in Taekwondo over the weekend. But my instructor said it very well, we learn martial arts so that we have choices. We can choose to run or we can choose to defend ourselves. Both choices are equally valid. Someone who doesn\'t do martial arts may not be in good enough shape to run and thus will have limited choices.

Steve Chandler
http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler (\"http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler\")
aka Ettienne
http://www.mp3.com/ettienne (\"http://www.mp3.com/ettienne\")

shadowbox

10-29-2002, 02:59 PM

From 2002 UN report on Human Development (i.e. best place to live in the world):

1 Norway
2 Sweden
3 Canada
4 Belgium
5 Australia
6 United States
7 Iceland
8 Netherlands
9 Japan
10 Finland
11 Switzerland
12 France
13 United Kingdom
14 Denmark
15 Austria
16 Luxembourg
17 Germany
18 Ireland
19 New Zealand
20 Italy

Beckers

10-29-2002, 03:10 PM

RYounger:
Recognising the US as the most powerful nation in the world is not an expression of jealousy but of concern. Very few people in the non-American west are jealous of either American power or lifestyle. The concern is over the decision making on the use of this power.

There maybe a lot of jealousy in the Islamic and the third world, but equally there is genuine aversion, and not just amongst radicals.

Most leaders and politicians are in it purely for themselves and their own glory, and true integrity with a complete sense of responsibility is rare. Bush differs purely in the size of his responsibility. I am not sure that the checks and balances of the American system are up to his machinations.

Also dragging up horrible history and using it as a standard is really invalid. We live under a different paradigm from the British Empire of 1C ago (at least, -we do in Europe).

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ryounger:
[QUOTE]
So what happens the next time a 9/11 incident occurs? Should we just sit back because a bunch of liberals hate the current president?

Well, you would be off to a great start if you stopped supporting Israel with all its military hardware.<hr /></blockquote>100%

The Israeli lobby dictates US foreign policy. If you want to do something to prevent another 9/11, do something about THAT. -MUCH more effective than invading Iraq.

PeterRoos

10-29-2002, 03:11 PM

Price of alcoholic beverages seems to have a high correlation with level of human development images/icons/wink.gif

Beckers

10-29-2002, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by shadowbox:
From 2002 UN report on Human Development (i.e. best place to live in the world):

1 Norway
2 Sweden
3 Canada
4 Belgium
5 Australia
6 United States
7 Iceland
8 Netherlands
9 Japan
10 Finland
11 Switzerland
12 France
13 United Kingdom
14 Denmark
15 Austria
16 Luxembourg
17 Germany
18 Ireland
19 New Zealand
20 ItalyYeah, but the variation within many of these countries, particularly in the US, is much greater than between the top and bottom of this list.

ryounger

10-29-2002, 03:46 PM

Hi Z6 I agree with you on many topics, this just isn’t one of them.

Here goes.
How many times has the British empire taken another poor defencless country by force in order to have economic gain? I don’t think you have much room to talk here.

“So at least you admit that that is what\'s happening then?”

What country has the US taken over in the past 50 years?

“Where on earth do you get your information? A \'poor and desperate people\'? Who? THEY? THEY? Is that it? THEY? Even if THEY”

Hey no reason to yell. Remember peace and love. I refer to they as Iraq. Sorry I wasn’t clearer on that. By the way, where do you get your information?

“Even if THEY were \'living the same way they were a thousand years ago\' (which is about as ignorant and bigoted a statement I\'ve seen on this thread)”

I didn’t mean to offend you Z6, and I agree that at one period of time the Middle East had a great civilization “while much of the West was living in its own dung heap.” But Europe had a Renaissance which propelled a new way of thinking. It is now time for the Middle East to do the same, or they will be left behind.

“THEY are jealous? They are jealous of YOU? Why would anyone anywhere be jealous of YOU?”

They are jealous of the West. And they should be. Tell me honestly Z6 if you were a poor citizen of Iraq or Afghanistan, would you not want the comforts that we enjoy here in the west? I am very thankful and grateful that I live in a place that has plenty of food, quality shelter, an education, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and a high standard of living. Do you not have these things also? I did not say that our government is perfect. That doesn’t mean that I don’t have the right to proclaim in the United States that this is the greatest nation in the world. You also are enjoying these freedoms Z6. In China they throw people in jail who speak out against the government.

“They think you are the great Satin? Not the great Velvet?”
Don’t the militant Islam factions (not all followers of Islam) call the west “the great Satin”?

“YOU gave Iraq 11 years? YOU? Few excuses left? THEY? This is ludicrous. \'Sometimes a pre-emptive strike can save the lives of millions\'?”

Hasn’t it been 11 years since the war with Iraq. Aren’t you an American? And by the way I’m sure that Kuwait was glad that we struck Iraq 11 years ago.

“why hasn\'t Saddam attacked the US? Why didn\'t he use the only weapons of mass destruction he owned (those given by the US when he was a \'friend\' killing millions of people).”

Well it would make more sense to attack the US when the nukes are built.

“Saddam is not Iraq. The people of Iraq are not Saddam.”

Well no, not technically. He is the government of Iraq. The US at least has the Executive, Congressional, and Judicial branches. Oh yeah, I guess that he got 100 percent of the vote. They sure seem to be a free nation.

“You frighten me. You are Amereekah, and you frighten all of us in the rest of the world and you probably even frighten many of your own people. You bet it\'s frightening what people can do when they\'re willing to sacrifice themselves, and you might want to think about that before YOU go raining their anger down on ME.”

Wow Z6 now that hurts… I have not called you one name directly that I know of, yet you call me frightening? Amereekah? Well come to think about it you frighten me too. You are an eloquent writer Z6 and I respect the fact that you stand up for what you believe in. On the same note, you try to turn everybody who disagrees with you into a villain. You say that Nick is a capitalist and I am a bigot. What are you? I’m glad that you are not the United States President. By the way, who are MY people?

“Why does waiting lead inevitably to disaster? Yes. Yes. Yes, YOU should wait. That is what the UN is supposed to be for. Smallpox? What is all this stuff about smallpox? Where did it come from? Why doesn\'t the U.S. just attack everyone and get it over with? Maybe that\'s really what you want after all. Everyone is a threat, are they not? Kill them all. It\'ll be harder on the conscience to kill Europeans, but you can start with all the bugs in the middle east, then wait until the French pee you off and then kill them too; bunch of frogs; they deserve to die. What if they want to attack us? It could happen. Best to be on the safe side; pre-emptive: that\'ll save millions. After YOU\'ve killed everyone else, you might want to check out your next door neighbor though, doesn\'t he look a bit shifty to YOU? Didn\'t he once grow a beard? What if he has a vial of smallpox hidden in his codpiece”

There you go again with the name calling. You are too angry to debate Z6, stop a minute and think. I did not say that we should start attacking everybody. I’m only saying that if the US government surveillance knows of the threat, then we should protect ourselves. Don\'t we have the right to protect ourselves from an attack? There are two known places that smallpox is kept. One place is Atlanta GA. and the other is in Russia. (sorry I forgot where). It is well known that some of the stockpile in Russia is missing. There is suspicion that Iraq has some of the disease. Since the United States is building up its stockpile of smallpox vaccine, it seems likely that there could be a threat. Military personnel are being briefed about the vaccine, and it is likely that US soldiers may get inoculated for it if they are sent to Iraq. Don’t take this so personally, it’s only a debate.

Peace.
Russ

JohnGrant

10-29-2002, 04:17 PM

I really wonder about that list of best countries. If I had to enter a lottery to decide which country I\'d want to be born in the US would be much further down the list. I wouldn\'t, for example, want to take a chance on being born Black, poor, and living in Newark, NJ. What variables are they using?

Concerning \"what\'s a superpower\"? Sure, the former Soviet Union could blow the world up more than a few times. But we don\'t call it a \"superpower\" any more, and it can STILL blow up the world several times. So, contrary to the idea mooted above, I don\'t think \"superpower\" status is determined by the size or power of ones nuclear arsenals.

J. Grant
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")

ryounger

10-29-2002, 04:32 PM

“really wonder about that list of best countries. If I had to enter a lottery to decide which country I\'d want to be born in the US would be much further down the list. I wouldn\'t, for example, want to take a chance on being born Black, poor, and living in Newark, NJ. What variables are they using?”

Here is the short list
Would you rather be born black in Africa?
Would you be treated better if you were poor in Canada? How about being caught up in a system of entitlements?
Could you not move from Newark, NJ? Check this out, people can move freely from state to state here in the US.

I think that a lot of affluent African Americans would take offence by your statements.

Russ

Thomas_J

10-29-2002, 05:05 PM

Norway is the best country in the world.
I love this country and I wake up each day, get my large norwegian flag and sing the national anthem. I then leave for school in a large viking-ship, greeting all the trolls on the way. The polar bears are very nice too, you can pet them. Later on I go out and buy a big mac for $10 and refuel my car for $80. Maybe a pizza later? $28. Ahh that\'s nothing. A beer with my friends? $7. Pffft.

Then at bedtime I kiss my pretty norwegian blonde girlfriend good night and watch the beautiful nordic sunset.

Thomas

Simon Ravn

10-29-2002, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:
Check this out, people can move freely from state to state here in the US.
Wow - amazing:)

ryounger

10-29-2002, 05:18 PM

Say now that I made all of you guys (and gals) angry at me does that mean that I can\'t get any help with Gigastudio anymore? :-)

Russ

10-29-2002, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:

What country has the US taken over in the past 50 years?
Russ, how about; how many countries has the US waged war against in the last fifty years?

North Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iraq, Colombia, El Salvador, Grenada, Lebanon, Libya, Nicaragua, Panama.

Others can feel free to add to the list. (No Presidents with fresh candidates please.) Of course, maybe training death squads in Columbia doesn\'t count?

Originally posted by ryounger:

Hey no reason to yell. Remember peace and love. I refer to they as Iraq. Sorry I wasn’t clearer on that. By the way, where do you get your information?Russ, it\'s unlikely that my \'bad manners\' will actually kill anyone, but blind support of an attack against Iraq just might.

Originally posted by ryounger:

It is now time for the Middle East to do the same, or they will be left behind.
Left behind? Left behind what?

Originally posted by ryounger:

They are jealous of the West. And they should be. Tell me honestly Z6 if you were a poor citizen of Iraq or Afghanistan, would you not want the comforts that we enjoy here in the west?
Russ, if you were a poor person in the US.... It is so, so inconceivable to you that people in other countries do not lust after your lifestyle? You think there are no comforts possible elsewhere? It is their home. Stop making assumptions. Stop judging it by your own standards (which apparently leads to strange conclusions that require the bombing of someone to sort). Or judge it, but leave it alone. Different cultures, different people have different values. The US political system, while born in democracy (out of \'terrorist activities\' against Britain) is starting to look like an aristocracy. It hardly matters what the \'rules\' are if the same people keep getting voted in; there is little or no divulging of \'secrets\' and the sons and daughters of politicians now virtually inherit their fathers\' seats of power.

The people of the US are allowing democracy to atrophy. And an attack on Iraq would be yet another example of supporting the eventual fall of the Amereekahn Empire. The security forces and the politicians should do their bloody jobs and stop simply throwing \'meat\' at the population every time it bays for blood. It is sickening.

It\'s all this leaping around, labeling \'they\' at whomever you please. Now you\'re talking about the \'poor\' people. What good are you doing THEM then? You want a pre-emptive strike at a cartoon cut-out of a dictator. If \'the poor\' are the ones who suffer, what have you or Amereekah done for them?

Originally posted by ryounger:

Hasn’t it been 11 years since the war with Iraq. Aren’t you an American? And by the way I’m sure that Kuwait was glad that we struck Iraq 11 years ago. Yes.
No.
The rich and powerful Kuwaitis were, but the average Joe was not necessarily bothered. I heard a towel-head on telly at the time (he was safe in London) saying \"Raise my country to the ground if you like, but get it back.\"

Originally posted by ryounger:

Well it would make more sense to attack the US when the nukes are built.When did Saddam ever make sense?

Originally posted by ryounger:

“Saddam is not Iraq. The people of Iraq are not Saddam.”

Well no, not technically. Not technically? Are you George Bush? (Sorry Russ, now that really would be an insult would it not?)

Originally posted by ryounger:

He is the government of Iraq. The US at least has the Executive, Congressional, and Judicial branches. Oh yeah, I guess that he got 100 percent of the vote. They sure seem to be a free nation.So what are you saying? You\'ve discovered that Iraq is ruled by a monstrous dictator then? Good for you. Let\'s bomb the bastards.

So why attack at all? I keep asking this question again and again. What EXACTLY has Iraq ever done to the US? Where is Bin Laden? Prove first that you can actually catch the (alleged) culprit, then go to the UN and persuade the security council.

Originally posted by ryounger:

Well come to think about it you frighten me too. You are an eloquent writer Z6 and I respect the fact that you stand up for what you believe in. On the same note, you try to turn everybody who disagrees with you into a villain. You say that Nick is a capitalist and I am a bigot. What are you? I’m glad that you are not the United States President. By the way, who are MY people?.I am frightened by anyone anywhere who believes in \'pre-emptive attacks\'. I don\'t think you are a villain. But people die in pre-emptive attacks. It\'s not a game to the victims. They don\'t get any chance to argue with the bombs.

Originally posted by ryounger:

There you go again with the name calling. I called you YOU? That\'s name calling?

Originally posted by ryounger:

You are too angry to debate Z6,
I am. But I\'m not calm enough to go along quietly with the death of innocents to satisfy a misguided lust for vengenge. (He threatened my daddy!\").

Originally posted by ryounger:

I’m only saying that if the US government surveillance knows of the threat, then we should protect ourselves.
There you go \'trusting\' the very people that Nick claims should be investigated themselves. (I called Nick a \'capitalist\' you say. Is \'calling\' someone a capitalist a slur. I\'m a capitalist myself, just not a very good one.)

Originally posted by ryounger:

Don\'t we have the right to protect ourselves from an attack? Is dropping bombs building a shield?

Ned Bouhalassa

10-29-2002, 05:39 PM

9 pages and what has been solved? This Forum is not the place for politics. Back to samples, please.

Simon Ravn

10-29-2002, 05:53 PM

Ned, nobody forces you to read this.

shadowbox

10-29-2002, 05:53 PM

Well, you would be off to a great start if you stopped supporting Israel with all its military hardware.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
100%
The Israeli lobby dictates US foreign policy. If you want to do something to prevent another 9/11, do something about THAT. -MUCH more effective than invading Iraq. Israel had very little, if anything to do with 9-11. It was mainly about presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia and U.S. support for the Saudi and Egyptian regimes. The fact of the matter is that Bin Laden and many Arab states don\'t care too much for Palestinians either. Arab leaders \"invited\" Palestinian Arabs to leave in 1948, promising to to purge the land of Jews. This didn\'t happen. When the Arabs couldn\'t return, the Arab leaders did not allow them into their countries either. That is how they became refugees. Jordan is the only Arab country to allow the Palestinian Arabs into their country. Al Queda has started to use anti-Israel propaganda more since 9-11. The majority of the world is pro-Palestinian , and anti-Israel. The anti-Israel rhetoric strengthens their support.

Beckers

10-29-2002, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:
Say now that I made all of you guys (and gals) angry at me does that mean that I can\'t get any help with Gigastudio anymore? :-)

RussOf course you can. You just need to re-register by keying in the following code: BUS HST INK S

Beckers

10-29-2002, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by shadowbox:
\"Israel had very little, if anything to do with 9-11. It was mainly about presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia and U.S. support for the Saudi and Egyptian regimes. The fact of the matter is that Bin Laden and many Arab states don\'t care too much for Palestinians either. Arab leaders \"invited\" Palestinian Arabs to leave in 1948, promising to to purge the land of Jews. This didn\'t happen. When the Arabs couldn\'t return, the Arab leaders did not allow them into their countries either. That is how they became refugees. Jordan is the only Arab country to allow the Palestinian Arabs into their country. Al Queda has started to use anti-Israel propaganda more since 9-11. The majority of the world is pro-Palestinian , and anti-Israel. The anti-Israel rhetoric strengthens their support\".[/QB][/QUOTE]

Many of the individuals and groups within Al Queda have come up through various organisations involved in the Palestinian cause.

It is not so much their support for the Palestinians as their own hatred of Israel, and hence Israel\'s sponsor, that generates Arab anger.

JohnGrant

10-29-2002, 06:17 PM

Here is the short list
Would you rather be born black in Africa?
Would you be treated better if you were poor in Canada? How about being caught up in a system of entitlements?
Could you not move from Newark, NJ? Check this out, people can move freely from state to state here in the US.

I think that a lot of affluent African Americans would take offence by your statements.

Russ I think you\'ve missed my point, Russ, completely! I\'m saying this: Say you HAVEN\'T been born yet and you DIDN\'T KWOW what social class or RACE or or disability or city you might be born into, WHAT COUNTRY would you take your chances with? Answer: there are a lot better places to take your chances than the good ol\' USA. Canada\'s one of them, by the way, because--regardless of race--you\'d be a whole lot less likely to be a) murdered b)poor and without social assistance or health care c) in jail d) without high school or post-secondary eduation etc., etc., etc.,... And, of course, if you happened to be born Black in this thought experiment, you\'d be much, much worse off in the US: ie, a victim of institutionalized racism--job discrimination, racial profiling, substandard health care.

What would be racist would be to DENY the latter fact. And things would be a whole lot worse were it not for Afro-Americans themselves, becuase they\'ve had to fight tooth and nail for every vestige of fairness that can be found down there. Nothing was ever given to Afro-Americans on a silver platter.

Of course, the main point here is to drive home the fact that the USA is NOT a \"great country.\" Perhaps, it could be. But it sure isn\'t right now.

J. Grant--trying to fight the good fight.
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")

Ned Bouhalassa

10-29-2002, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Ned, nobody forces you to read this.You\'re right Simon. I choose to come here when I am interested in engaging in discussions about audio-related topics.

If I need some information about politics, I read newspapers and magazines.

ryounger

10-29-2002, 11:25 PM

Hi Simon

“WHY is it that SO many Americans have this conception that their country is the best country in the world?”

I think this is the real question. In the United States people move here because they want to live in a free nation, where success to an individual is not dictated by the will of a government entity. We are free because of the sacrifice of those who believe that all people should be free. We fought Brittan to establish that we deserved representation in government, for our taxation. Everyone in the United States, with an exception of the Native Americans, came from another country, for whatever reason, to enjoy the freedom that we have. Many times they gave up their land, family, political beliefs, and customs to become Americans. Do you know what I’m talking about Simon? Have you lived in the US for a number of years?

Hi Beckers.
“What is for sure is that tha US is the most powerful nation in history, in terms of military and economic might, global reach and unaccountability.”

Well you got this part right, but there seems to be some negative feelings under the surface here. Being from the UK you must remember the saying. “The sun never sets on the British empire”. It seems strange that someone coming from the UK would be angry about the successor to your global might. How many times has the British empire taken another poor defencless country by force in order to have economic gain? I don’t think you have much room to talk here.

“In the UK and Europe many of us are seeing the growth of US power with increasing trepidation. What is worrying is the apparent willingness of the current administration to use this power with an unclear agenda and with apparent disregard for the consequences.”

It is quite clear what is going on here. There is a section of the world that is jealous of what we have in the west. (This includes the UK). They are a poor and desperate people that are living the same way that they were a thousand years ago. Since they think that we are the Great Satin, it is very frightening what they could do with a little bit of ingenuity and a willingness to sacrifice themselves. We gave Iraq eleven years to comply with the UN inspections. There are few excuses left. Sometimes a preemptive strike can save the lives of millions.

“The US has never been more powerful and could act unilaterally with impunity. The other big nations, previously able to subject and control empires, retained little significant military capability after WW11, except the USSR.”

Aren’t you glad that they are not a threat to your country anymore? The last time I checked the closest ally to the UK is the US. By the way, you wouldn’t be talking about Germany would you?

“The Cold War ensured that European nations kept a powerful influence in their position as buffers between the superpowers. Other, “weak”, non-aligned nations needed to be “courted” by the superpowers in the atmosphere of bilateral paranoia. Since the end of the cold war and the demise of the USSR, the US does not need seek anyone’s approval.”
Approval for what? Should we just sit by while France, China, and Russia think about it? Should we wait until some smallpox is released in a large city to act? Sould we wait until an entire city is nuked before we act?

“The Balkan conflicts have shown that Europe does not function as a single military power. As a substitute for power these nations prefer to have everyone live under and stick to international laws.”

More jellousy of American power.

“The threat that Iraq poses is relative.”
I guess it is if you call bio, chemical, and nuclear weapons relative.

“The perception of this threat by any nation, (and certainly the response to it), is related to the strength of that nation. (This is human psychology. If I had a gun I would be much less likely to accept, as part of life, the threat from the large black cat, that has been sighted in the hills around us).”

Right, as the gun holder, the US is in a better position to beat the black cat. (Iraq).
Does that mean that we should be fair to the black cat and give them a gun?

“Everyone understands how aggrieved Americans must feel over 9/11. However this empathy does not translate into a debt of blind allegiance, unless it is clear that US action is immediately necessary self defence. Nick Phoenix\'s posts further increases my apprehension about that.”

So what happens the next time a 9/11 incident occurs? Should we just sit back because a bunch of liberals hate the current president? Maybe Nick watches too many science fiction movies, or reads too many Tom Clancy novels. There are just as many dark sides to the Democratic Party as the Republicans. I wonder if Al Gore would have done the same thing? Bill Clinton didn’t mind bombing innocent people to further his political career. Think of it this way, there are conspiracy theory books written all the time about ANY president that has been in office. Who is to say that Nick has found the Holly Grail?

“How responsibly will an un-worldsavvy Bush, with blinkered hawks like Cheyney, Rumsfeld and Rice use this immense power? \"If you have a hammer in your hand, everything looks like nails\" (Twain); one of these nails may turn out to be a detonating pin.”

See above.

Russ

Simon Ravn

10-29-2002, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:
Hi Simon

“WHY is it that SO many Americans have this conception that their country is the best country in the world?”

I think this is the real question. In the United States people move here because they want to live in a free nation, where success to an individual is not dictated by the will of a government entity. We are free because of the sacrifice of those who believe that all people should be free. We fought Brittan to establish that we deserved representation in government, for our taxation. Everyone in the United States, with an exception of the Native Americans, came from another country, for whatever reason, to enjoy the freedom that we have.

Yes but you are mainly talking 18th, 19th century here. People dont flee to the US to be free, more so than they do to all of western europe. Refugees come from totally different countries than the \'western world\'. You don\'t see Swedes, Danes, French, Germans, Brits etc. FLEEING to the US. If they move there, it is usually because of work opportunities etc - then they\'ll have to deal with all the crap going on in the US as a downside to their relocation - it\'s not like they move there because they think it\'s paradise.

It seems to be common conception for U.S. citizens to believe they are simply the best nation at just about everything. I remember Paul Newman saying at an Oscar show \'I think the US is the most generous country in the world\' -- almost made me neaucious (if that is the correct spelling). There are so many big problems that are not dealt with in the US and still this mis-conception seem to flourish - or am I WRONG? Do the common americans believe that there might be just as good - hell, maybe even BETTER countries to live in, out there in the rest of the world? You tell me.
“In the UK and Europe many of us are seeing the growth of US power with increasing trepidation. What is worrying is the apparent willingness of the current administration to use this power with an unclear agenda and with apparent disregard for the consequences.”

It is quite clear what is going on here. There is a section of the world that is jealous of what we have in the west. (This includes the UK). They are a poor and desperate people that are living the same way that they were a thousand years ago. Since they think that we are the Great Satin, it is very frightening what they could do with a little bit of ingenuity and a willingness to sacrifice themselves. We gave Iraq eleven years to comply with the UN inspections. There are few excuses left. Sometimes a preemptive strike can save the lives of millions.

This is where YOU seem to be missing the whole point. WHY should Iraq just COMPLY to any resolutions, that the US deem necessary to force on the U.N.? What makes the US a nation that have the power to rule over other countries? What if Europe decided that we wanted all civil hand weapons in the US turned over? Would you comply?

And to think that the wealth of The West (and very much the US) is built upon their sufferings is not such a far fetched idea is it. The West are exploiting the under-developed countries - no doubt about that. I am sure your coffee would be a lot more expensive if the brazilians were paid fairly for the product. If McDonalds could manufacture their burgers in Asia or Southamerica and teleport them to their customers on the fly, you can bet that they would do it.

“The threat that Iraq poses is relative.”
I guess it is if you call bio, chemical, and nuclear weapons relative.
Oh, and the US dont have those weapons? Should Europe or Russia nuke you then?? Just to make sure you don\'t do anything stupid - like attacking Iraq? And uhm... maybe we should investigate where much of Iraq\'s technology comes from - it is REAAAALLY unlikely that the US sold anything useful to Iraq isnt it?

“The perception of this threat by any nation, (and certainly the response to it), is related to the strength of that nation. (This is human psychology. If I had a gun I would be much less likely to accept, as part of life, the threat from the large black cat, that has been sighted in the hills around us).”

Right, as the gun holder, the US is in a better position to beat the black cat. (Iraq).
Does that mean that we should be fair to the black cat and give them a gun?

Who\'s the black cat here - Iraq or YOU (the US)? Imagine what would happen if you didn\'t support Israel and didn\'t interfere with what\'s going on in the Middle East at all. I wonder what it would look like today.

So what happens the next time a 9/11 incident occurs? Should we just sit back because a bunch of liberals hate the current president?
Well, you would be off to a great start if you stopped supporting Israel with all its military hardware.

ryounger

10-30-2002, 10:02 AM

Hey JohnGrant.

Now that you are done with the Canadian socialism is great speech, why do Canadians come to the US for their health care? Why do they flood over here to shop? Oh yes, to pay for your great welfare system you are taxed up the wazoo. Does your system of dependence bring the poor out of their plight into the middle class?

Where is the racism that you speak about? Sure there are racists in the US as there probably are in Canada, but making a blanket statement is a bit ridiculous isn’t it? When Oprah is the number one media person in this country, doesn’t it seem ironic by your philosophy that she is African American?

The United States has 280 million people living here; social perfection cannot be established with such a large country. I love America as you love Canada, why can’t we leave it at that? I have the right to love my country, do I not? This country has been very good to me. The problem with liberalism is that the philosophy is meant to bring people down, instead of empowering people to succeed at where their talents lie, to be the best that they can be. Hey John, we do have a decent educational system and we do have a good healthcare system. Unfortunately health care costs are rising. There are violent people out there no matter where they live. I hear a lot of complaining from the left, but I don’t hear any concrete solutions that will solve the problems of society. Around here at Northernsounds it would be a lot easier to trash my home (the US) instead of stand up against you people who think we are rotten. I asked Z6 how many countries have we taken over by force, since he was adamant that we did. He was unable to give me an answer. John, I know that you love Canada, and it is a nice country indeed. Z6, do you pledge allegiance to any nation, or are you just complaining? Our government has many faults, but the faults of the government didn’t start with George Bush. Perhaps if Nick found some corrupt liberals to add to the mix he would have a home run. I at least would be more persuaded. If the war with Iraq is bogus, than take out the left wing politics and lay it out on the table. If you can’t than it is just another left versus right debate that will never end. I dare all who is liberal here to find a better solution that the one currently proposed.

Russ

Deimos

10-30-2002, 12:10 PM

Z6: your penis is very small. And your sense of morality is twisted. The Internet is your bully pulpit.

Who died and made _you_ Pope?

ryounger

10-30-2002, 12:43 PM

Hi Z6 not to make you upset, but you still didn’t answer my qusertions

1. Over the past 50 years, what country did we take over by force. I know that we aren’t the UK where “The sun never sets on the British empire” but really, it is a simple question.
2. do you pledge allegiance to any nation, or are you just complaining?

These are simple questions, you must have missed them in your anger towards me.

“Amereekah is a bully.”

Glad I don’t live there, I live in America

“Why not ask how many countries Amereekah has nuked? Then there\'s only one (two cities though - best to be on the safe side).”

Yup true. We saved ourselves and the world many years of suffering because we used nuclear force. Tell me Z6, could you have come up with a better solution of ending WWII. Tell me, after we saved Europe from Hitler, what could we have done better? Oh yeah, you are not from the US, you wouldn’t have a clue. Since you don’t claim a nationality, did you come from the Moon? That would explain a lot.

“Why not phrase the question any way you like if you think you can phrase it in such a way as to ignore Amereeka\'s many attacks against the poorest, most helpless nation in the world?”

Boy those people from Amerreeka must be real jerks! Hmmm. By the way, who are THEY!! (I couldn’t resist). If you are talking about Iraq, they do have bio, chemical, and soon to have nuclear weapons. But I guess coming from the Moon, such as yourself you can judge anybody anyway you wish.

I’m still waiting for the divine solutions to this problem from you.

Russ

Deimos

10-30-2002, 12:54 PM

Russ, I believe Z6 is French. Like the French diplomatic position, he is against any American or American idea. If it\'s from the USA, in his view it\'s bad. He probably stinks of BO as well, and has little or nothing to offer in terms of solutions.

Just thought I would help him cut to the chase; normally it takes pages of drivel for him to get that far.

ryounger

10-30-2002, 12:59 PM

Hey thanks for clearing that up for me Deimos. You have to admit that France and the Moon have one thing in common, they are out there.

Russ

10-30-2002, 01:01 PM

Russ, you\'ll find my response to all of your queries in my previous posts.

As I said, I\'m outa here. Deimos is obsessed with my member and this thread has deteriorated into name calling and bigotry, unfortunately.

Without recourse to actually responding to Deimos\' subtle points in person, I can add no more to this.

Nick Phoenix

10-30-2002, 01:18 PM

Deimos and Russ,
You guys are like Laurel and Hardy. I can picture the stupid smiles on your faces as you write this stuff. Kind of like a certain illegal sub-moronic president I know. You were given a list of all of the nations that we have invaded/attacked or illegally manipulated. YOU never answered the question as to why it is that we support right wing dictators!!! Stop confusing the government with the American people. Our system of government is flawed. This has allowed our media to be destroyed. That is in turn destroying the American people with lies and
fear mongering. You have been programmed to react the way you do. You are robots. How do you know what the rest of the world really thinks of America anyway? How do you know why people come here in droves? In Mexico and many other countries, there is no hope for economic recovery because of loans from American banks that can never be paid. All of these countries would have been much better off, if America had never gotten economically involved. And don\'t be confused- We got involved because we want to make money, there was nothing altruistic about it. These people come here in desperation which is often times(not always) caused by the U.S. I am not whining. I have solutions.

1. Ban lobbyists. All lobbying efforts must be submitted via email. That way there is a record.

2. Government must seize all media conglomerates, sell them off in smaller pieces allowing the dividends to be returned to the company that was chopped up.

3. Make election day a holiday!!!!!!!!

4. Make the WTO a democratic organization.

5. All tax cuts should be LARGE and taken from the military budget.

That\'s it! Do these things and America will be restored.

Deimos

10-30-2002, 01:59 PM

Nick, those are good ideas! I agree with them all. God forbid that some of the effort put into pointless venting and rants could go into the generation of useful ideas. Maybe you\'d be prepared to invest some of your precious cash into seeing them become reality? If not I suppose we should all thank you for your gracious public service. We\'re so lucky you\'re here to tell us what to think, and what is right!

Clearly we disagree on which is the greater evil in this world... and yes, I can\'t help but grin; I am the anti-troll to your mega-troll.

Z6 is still a whiny little bitch! (and an admirable henchman)

PaPa Chalk

10-30-2002, 02:55 PM

Banned. Could everyone involved in this thread please read the forum rules. You should all have an idea when its going to far.

http://www.northernsounds.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=23;DaysPrune=30 (\"http://www.northernsounds.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=23;DaysPrune=30\")

Kobb

10-30-2002, 03:07 PM

Nick,

I liked most of your suggestions.

However, the LARGE tax cuts taken exclusively from the millitary budget displays the same simplistic / blanket-statement approach which you profess to loathe (please note: I don\'t mean to imply that you are simplistic, Nick. That specific idea, however, stuck me as too \"easy\"). Sure it gives the feel-good, \"anti-war\" crowd a chance to practice their synchronized \"RAH RAHs\", but given the current state of world affairs, it would be absolutely irresponsible to place our millitary at a disadvantage.

If America was to implement your solutions tomorrow, would that make all the world love America? Would that help oust the twisted regimes that foster murderous anti-American views? Would it provide economic opportunities to all the hopeless, angry young men in the Middle East who have been programmed to use the US as a scapegoat for their frustrations?

Obviously, no.

The real world in which we live is still ultimately ruled by force. Of course, we always try other ways to means to settle our differences - and Thank God that approach is 99% effective (our recent relationship with most European countries is an example of this). But when push comes to shove - millitary strength is the deciding factor.

And I want that factor to remain in our favor.

I will not be swayed to believe that George Bush is a greater threat to the citizens of America than Osama, Saddam, or any other Islamic extremists. Perhaps you think that I have bought into the \"fear campaign\" that is allegedly being promoted by the Bush administration. I prefer to think of it as the \"Welcome to the real world\" campaign.

It\'s a dangerous place, and we\'d better be ready.

ryounger

10-30-2002, 03:21 PM

Ok Nick, I’ll bite

“You guys are like Laurel and Hardy. I can picture the stupid smiles on your faces as you write this stuff. Kind of like a certain illegal sub-moronic president I know.”

And you and Z6 are like Abbot and Costello. I can see you stupidly frantically typing drivel after thinking about how a certain illegal sub-moronic president (Bill Clinton) is the Second Coming. By the way Nick, I didn’t know you were pals with President Bush.

“You were given a list of all of the nations that we have invaded/attacked or illegally manipulated.”

I asked for nations taken over by force. Z6 was the one that brought that up.

“YOU never answered the question as to why it is that we support right wing dictators!!!”

I don’t think you ever asked. We have supported some bad dictators to help curb the spread of Communism. The United States is not perfect, name one superpower that is.

“Stop confusing the government with the American people.”

Wow, funny words coming from a government loving liberal.

“Our system of government is flawed. This has allowed our media to be destroyed. That is in turn destroying the American people with lies and
fear mongering.”

How? Have you had government agents crashing down your door telling you how to score your movie trailers? If anything the LEFT owns the media.

“You have been programmed to react the way you do. You are robots.”

Everyone who is a follower of the left read this a few times. Let me help.
“You have been programmed to react the way you do. You are robots.”
“You have been programmed to react the way you do. You are robots.”
“You have been programmed to react the way you do. You are robots.”

This is what the left wing liberal elite thinks of the citizens of the US. They think that we (the people of the US) are too stupid to govern ourselves. This is why the United States was founded in the first place. Sounds like 1984 (a book Nick) to me. By the way, you claim to hate the media and large corporations, yet you will gladly take their money. Like I said to you before Nick, your liberal thoughts betray you.

“How do you know what the rest of the world really thinks of America anyway?”

Should I be afraid of the rest of the world Nick? How about, you care too much about what the world thinks of America.

“How do you know why people come here in droves?”

You are going to try to answer my question, although not quite correctly though. The people of Mexico come here for a better life. That is why most people come here. Stop blaming American corporations for all of the world’s ills Nick. Sorry, but you are not entirely correct. Could Mexico’s problems be attributed to the corrupt government of Mexico? No, not in your opinion.

“there is no hope for economic recovery because of loans from American banks that can never be paid.”

Wasn’t the free trade act that Bill Clinton passed supposed to fix laments of Mexico? Here’s the fix. Place a democratic government in Mexico and get rid of the dictatorship. The problem is that the people of Mexico need to do this, not the US.

“All of these countries would have been much better off, if America had never gotten economically involved. These people come here in desperation which is often times(not always) caused by the U.S. I am not whining. I have solutions.”

I didn’t know that Mexico was “All of these countries”. It would be irresponsible to ignore that all of the main economic powers of the world today benefit from the US.

Now to the only constructive part of the post

“1. Ban lobbyists. All lobbying efforts must be submitted via email. That way there is a record.”

Isn’t that against the 1st amendment? I agree that they have too much political clout on both the left and the right.

“2. Government must seize all media conglomerates, sell them off in smaller pieces allowing the dividends to be returned to the company that was chopped up.”

Government control of the media!!!???? That is crazy!!!! Freedom of the press is one of the only checks that we have against the Government. I think that the media ha a direct liberal bias, but the government should never control the press.

“3. Make election day a holiday!!!!!!!!”

Right on Nick! We are in total agreement! People need to be encouraged to be involved in the political system. You are so right that people get too much information from the commentary filled national news. The scary thing is that many people vote without even having that.

“4. Make the WTO a democratic organization.”

The WTO is just a mess. If this will fix it, give it a try.

“5. All tax cuts should be LARGE and taken from the military budget.”

You Bet!!!! But I think we can cut off more government waste than just the military.

See Nick, that wasn’t so hard. I enjoyed reading the second half of your post, it was thought provoking and fair. A bit of advice though, if you really want to convince people that your political philosophy is correct, try not to be so negative to the people you are trying to convince. I am not a stupid robot, and neither are you

Russ

Nick Phoenix

10-30-2002, 03:26 PM

Russ,
Almost everything you said had some fatally flawed information in it. No energy left.... The robot comment was unfair, you\'re right. Still I have given you many strong points throughout this thread. You haven\'t addressed them, except for the last few. You bring up Clinton as if I am a supporter. Very robotic of you, Rush. I liked him more than Bush because he is intelligent. Politically he is a Republican that talks like a moderate. I personally am not a pure liberal, but mostly I am. Clinton was not a liberal. He was a liar just like Bush. You called me \"government loving.\" I think it is clear that I am not. Certain things need regulation. I am ALL for a smaller more efficient government. It\'s true that the cut the military budget in half statement was too simplistic. But it\'s a quick and effective solution. Why do you think that the world is such a dangerous place for us Americans, anyway? I think we\'ve become a bunch of worrying old codgers. Where\'s your spirit? Where are your balls? Please give me some examples of the liberal media bias. And most importantly, it is CLEARLY the Bush administration that feels you are too stupid to govern yourselves or know the truth. They have blocked the release of any information more than any other administration in recent history. They hate democracy.

10-30-2002, 03:38 PM

Russ (yes, I am going, I am)

Bill Clinton was responsible for attacks against Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Sudan and Iraq. (You may be happy to know.)

US presidents all seem somehow the same to the rest of the world.

(and when I said \'nation\' earlier, it should have been nations - plural - \"the poorest, most defenceless nationS in the world.\")

I\'m Scottish, by the way, but I hold no \'allegiance\' to any country; although I would like to give Deimos a great, big \'Glasgow kiss\'; so perhaps none of us can really betray our heritage.

(and my B.O. is under control - I\'m told)

ryounger

10-30-2002, 04:36 PM

Hi Z6. Sorry for thinking that you were from the UK, I heard that Scotland is a beautiful place. I hope to visit there someday. You did teach me something though, I should not refer to the US or America as we or us. You are correct in that it implies superiority. That was not my intention.

Hi Nick. I think that I went through your last post quite thoroughly. Perhaps you need to clarify my errors. I will give you some answers to your latest post.

“Why do you think that the world is such a dangerous place for us Americans, anyway?”

Normally I would have to pause and agree with you. Some of the things that trouble many Americans are.
1. The events of 9/11. This was the first attack on US soil that the United States has encountered for over a century. The attack on innocent civilians gave US citizens even a bigger scare. Unfortunately, the congress under pressure from the President, media, and scared out of their mind civilians passed the Patriot Act, with no sunset clause. This is something that I find to be very dieturbing. I know we both agree on this.
2. Anthrax Attacks. These attacks were real and they are still unsolved.
3. The flight from Miami where the guy had a bomb in his shoe.
4. The latest sniper nut.

“Where\'s your spirit? Where are your balls?”

I have them, that is why I would use force to help keep the peace.

“Please give me some examples of the liberal media bias.”

Tom Brokaw, Peter Jennings, Dan Rather (he even does fund raisers for the Democratic party) Phil Donahue, Does CNN even have a conservative on its staff? PC is everywhere Nick. If you were a conservative you would see it.

“And most importantly, it is CLEARLY the Bush administration that feels you are too stupid to govern yourselves or know the truth. They have blocked the release of any information more than any other administration in recent history. They hate democracy.”

When a nation is at war, the plans of the government aren’t discovered until years after the fact. Haven’t they just released tapes from the Johnson Administration.

My main point is that if you are going to persuade other people (left or right wing) to join your cause, you must positively persuade them. If you make people go on the defense, you have done nothing more for your cause than push people away from your point of reasoning. I always thought if we could combine the Green Party with the Libertarian Party, then we would have some political muscle. Remember, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Thanks for the debate

Russ

Nick Phoenix

10-30-2002, 07:07 PM

The ususal nonsense.

1. We are not at war. There has been no declaration of war. Bush wants war powers without actually declaring war.

2. I want examples of liberal bias not some names. That\'s garbage.

3. Liberal can mean helping the poor and minorities, universal healthcare, legalised marijuana, freedom fo ALL religions with no bias towards christianity, environmental protection before all else, peace through negotiation when possible, complete separation of church and state, decreasing the power of corporations, diverse and decentralised media, real education for all with real funding, etc. in other words- the ideals of any decent educated, enlightened, human being.

To me conservative means selfish, racist, stubborn, greedy, uneducated etc.

devinmaxwell

10-30-2002, 07:21 PM

I just saw Bowling for Columbine.

I think it\'s better than Roger and Me.

dev

JohnGrant

10-30-2002, 09:00 PM

Some Russisms:

Now that you are done with the Canadian socialism is great speech,Hey, Russ, what are you smoking? Canada socialist??? Not in a million years.

why do Canadians come to the US for their health care? They don\'t Russ. They don\'t. Only rich folks up here can afford to do that, and very, very few of THEM do. Bottom line, Russ: we live longer up here than you folks do. Surprise: We\'ve got better health care! Not only that, it\'s much more efficiently and inexpensively run than the US system (although it sure ain\'t perfect), and it\'s a heck-of-a-lot more equitable.

Why do they flood over here to shop?I wish!! With the Canadian dollar at 63 cents US? Nope. You\'re dreaming, Russ (again).

Oh yes, to pay for your great welfare system you are taxed up the wazoo. Does your system of dependence bring the poor out of their plight into the middle class?We\'re \"taxed up the wazoo\"? Only relative to the good ol\' USA (the only model you seem to recognize). All Western European countries have higher taxes, some much higher. As for the poor, we try not to leave them in the gutter, at least not consciously and deliberately. Still, we could afford to do much more--although I doubt that\'s where your line of thought was heading.

Where is the racism that you speak about?Read what I said.

Sure there are racists in the US as there probably are in Canada, but making a blanket statement is a bit ridiculous isn’t it?Missed my point totally. Read what I said.

When Oprah is the number one media person in this country, doesn’t it seem ironic by your philosophy that she is African American?Oh yes, you\'ve got Oprah. I forgot. I take it all back, Russ. There\'s no racism in the States.

John Grant (another pesky Scot, but only third generation.)
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")

Deimos

10-30-2002, 11:24 PM

Z6 is simply \"playing Oscar Wilde\", as he himself said a month or so ago (when he showed his throat to someone more intelligent). He\'s just arguing to argue.

As for Canada, it\'s a great place because it\'s in the shadow of the USA. Who would ever hate or bomb Canada? Nobody notices them because they hide in our shadow. It\'s like the old racing trick of \"Drafting\" - pump up your own momentum by staying close to, and precisely behind, the leading player.

America isn\'t perfect, and the world is imperfect, because humans are imperfect! We all hate each other and are violent because of our basic animal instincts. Try evolving yourself and do the right thing. That\'s the REAL hundredth-monkey theory.

It\'s impossible for \"peace\" to exist. We are competitive animals who also have a society and economic system. IMO, we artists are the cutting edge of evolution. Only art and music separate us from base creatures.

Instead of competitive nationalism, let\'s all take a step back and consider on which side our bread is buttered.

Also, I love Norway and the nordic lands. I hope to travel/visit/move there someday and find my wife.

10-30-2002, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:
I asked Z6 how many countries have we taken over by force, since he was adamant that we did. He was unable to give me an answer. John, I know that you love Canada, and it is a nice country indeed. Z6, do you pledge allegiance to any nation, or are you just complaining?
RussRuss, the list I compiled isn\'t enough. \'taken over by force\'? Unable to answer? Don\'t these countries qualify? Is military action against them not enough? Why not ask how many countries Amereekah has nuked? Then there\'s only one (two cities though - best to be on the safe side). Why not phrase the question any way you like if you think you can phrase it in such a way as to ignore Amereeka\'s many attacks against the poorest, most helpless nation in the world?

Amereekah is a bully.

Deimos; I showed my throat? Playing Oscar Wilde? I said that? Someone more intelligent? You mean there\'s someone more intelligent than me? Shucks.

Are you the guy who keeps going on about my limp **** ? I\'ll admit that\'s a strong argument. I\'m afraid you seem to be under the misapprehension that you\'re making points about something or other (other than my winkie and my lapdogism).

This is really great: \"IMO, we artists are the cutting edge of evolution. Only art and music separate us from base creatures\".

We artists? Cutting edge of evolution? We\'d certainly be doomed if that were true. You need to get a grip.

I hope you find a wife in Norway. If you don\'t speak Norwgian and she doesn\'t speak English, who knows, she might mistake you for someone not completely out to lunch.

Or by \"find my wife\" did you mean that she lit out the door one day while you were talking about yourself? (Is Norway far enough?)

Deimos, try to supress the urge to \'cut me up\' with that razor wit of yours. Speare me the wrath of your superior intelligence, please... please.. please.

In the meantime \"try evolving yourself\" - whatever the hell that means.

I\'ve said enough here. I suspect everyone has had enough of my opinion so I\'m offski before all the excellent points people made here are obscured by the usual winkie competitions that little people must have.

ryounger

10-31-2002, 10:37 AM

Hey Nick, you are clinging onto liberalism, but unfortunately your liberal rhetoric won’t save you.

1. If we are not at war, then the past 11 pages of this post (by your argument ) are moot.
2. Pay attention to the news broadcasts. Listen to the false political commentary. I know that you can’t tell, because you agree with the liberal bias. That is what is so puzzling about your complaints against the media. Why should you hate it if they are preaching what you believe in?

“Liberal can mean helping the poor and minorities,”

The word of focus in this sentence is CAN. The liberals had 40 years to try their war on poverty. The rate of poverty is still the same as it was in the 60’s. Well I guess that to liberals the intent is worth more than the result. The conservatives believe that people should not label each other as minority or majority. We believe that as fellow Americans everybody has the opportunity to succeed, not just the White liberal elite. The sad socialist welfare system, set in motion by the liberals is a poor excuse to keep a certain population in check. It has done nothing to very little to solve the problems of society.

“universal healthcare”

Nick, what do you really stand for? You say in one sentence that you are for a smaller government, yet you want to create the LARGEST entitlement program in the history of the United States? What is your hidden agenda here?

“legalised marijuana”

I agree, while you are at it, LEGALIZE TOBACCO.

“freedom fo ALL religions with no bias towards Christianity”

I totally agree. That means that the Atheists in your crowd need to recognize religion in the first place.

“environmental protection before all else”

Which means let states like Idaho control their own water rights, manage their own forests, and keep socialist Washington DC liberals out of the business of forest management. That means give control to the states.

“peace through negotiation when possible”

And add to that force if necessary.

“complete separation of church and state”

With recognition that 75 percent of Americans believe in a higher power.

“decreasing the power of corporations”

What? That means business should be controlled by the state? I thought that you were for SMALLER government. The more that government sets controls on business, the more freedom is actually taken away from the people. This is an example of the old liberal philosophy that the intention is what counts, the result doesn’t matter.

“diverse and decentralised media”

More big government Nick?

“real education for all with real funding, etc. in other words- the ideals of any decent educated, enlightened, human being.”

As long as every child is properly taught what the liberals want them to know. This is totally bogus Nick, I went to public schools as a kid. Nick, I think that I received a decent education.

Anyway you saved the best for last.

“To me conservative means selfish, racist, stubborn, greedy, uneducated etc.”

Wow, that’s what I always thought about the liberals. Seriously Nick, as I said before in at least TWO posts, if the third parties wish to have a snowballs chance in heck, we need to join our efforts and put aside some of the things like you just said in your closing sentence. I said it once, and I’ll say it again. If you want to persuade people that your thinking is the correct way, then you can’t be negative or inflammatory towards them. If you want freedom and a smaller government, if you want control to go back to the people, then you must accept the fact that people are smart enough to govern themselves. We have seen Communism, where the government controls everything from art to national defense. They tried to build a society where everybody is equal by force of the government. Ultimately the people suffered as a result. That is why I think the United States is so great. We are a nation that is governed by the people, not by a group of mysterious elite. We may have poor, yes but we also have the freedom to not be.

Russ

David Abraham

10-31-2002, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:
[QB If you want to persuade people that your thinking is the correct way, then you can’t be negative or inflammatory towards them.
Russ[/QB]C\'mon now Russ, do you -really- think personalities change? images/icons/smile.gif

People use different ways (some effective some not as effective) to get their points across...unfortunately not everyone looks at the outcomes of these approaches with the intention of modifying them for the purpose of achieving their objectives, and frankly some objectives are un-achievable in a given context and time-frame.

-david abraham

Hans Adamson

10-31-2002, 12:42 PM

Russ,

I have often wondered exactly what people refer to when they say they are opposed to \"big government\". It is mostly said with such contempt, and even hate, that you\'d think they are probably right, because, how could anyone wish for something so \"despicable\". Now, what are they really referring to?

You gave a good idea of what YOU are referring to as \"big government\":

Health care when you or your children get sick.

Legislation that prevents corporations from becoming more powerful than the people and their elected representatives.

Diverse and decentralized media.

THAT is scary.

It is also scary to see someone argue against \"real education for all with real funding\". The reasoning being that: \"every child is properly taught what the liberals want them to know.\"

Scary.

But scariest of all, to see you unprovoked pick on the smallest minority: Those who do not have a religious belief. A group that is already outcast in the U.S.

Religious freedom?

Scary!

Hans

Hans Adamson

10-31-2002, 11:05 PM

You are getting really scary now, Russ. It\'s for Halloween, right?

Hans

ryounger

10-31-2002, 11:29 PM

Hi John, I didn’t forget about you.

“Hey, Russ, what are you smoking? Canada socialist??? Not in a million years.”

Sorry John, I didn’t mean to offend you. I have been to Canada only a couple of times, so I am not well versed in the politics of your country. I don’t man any disrespect to you or the Country of Canada. Here are some of my thoughts though.

The reason that the rich folks come here for medical treatment is that much of the world’s medical research is done here. We have some of the finest doctors in the world practicing medicine here because we can pay them better than they would be in other nations. I’m not saying that Canada doesn’t have good doctors, I’m saying that if the research for a particular disease so happens to be researched in the United States, people from Canada will come here for treatment.

“I wish!! With the Canadian dollar at 63 cents US? Nope. You\'re dreaming, Russ (again).”

When I lived in North Idaho, the majority of tourists that came there were from Canada. I was under the impression that the reason that they came here was because of our low sales tax. This of course is not an accurate survey of Canadian tourism to the United States, but it gave me a good impression of why many Canadians choose to do shopping in North Idaho.

“We\'re \"taxed up the wazoo\"? Only relative to the good ol\' USA”

Well, the fact is you are taxed up the wazoo.

“As for the poor, we try not to leave them in the gutter, at least not consciously and deliberately”

The homeless is a terrible problem that has plagued modern society for centuries. Unfortunately there is no good solution for a country with a population of 280 million people. The way to bring these people into mainstream society is not by locking them up into a regressive entitlement program, only by opportunity and freedom can a society help those to help themselves.

“Where is the racism that you speak about?”

Question still stands.

“Oh yes, you\'ve got Oprah. I forgot. I take it all back, Russ. There\'s no racism in the States.”

It shows that as a whole the United States is not a raciest nation. There are racists who live here, sure, but there are racists in Canada also.

Thanks for the debate John. I would also like to add that I think that Canada is a wonderful country with a lot of good people. If you give the people of the America a chance, you will see that we are good country with a lot of good people also.

Russ

ryounger

10-31-2002, 11:31 PM

Hi Hans

\"You are getting really scary now, Russ. It\'s for Halloween, right?\"

What is scary about me?

Russ

csduke

11-01-2002, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by ryounger:

Unfortunately the government started to change after the War of Southern Independence. From this time on the government has slowly been eroding the power of the individual states, and therefore it has grown past the original intent. RussThis is one of the more ironic situation in US history i.e. that as a result of the actions of the South who based much of their decision for secession on a strong belief in State\'s Rights, State\'s Rights diminished and the locomative of big government i.e. intrusive centralized government, got its initial steam and is now out of control forever.

I agree with your characterization of our government. It is much too big (budget of about 2.3 trillion dollars). Cutting some defense spending, as some have suggested, will do little. It is the combination of defense and \"entitlement\" programs (other people being entitled to my money - other people entitled to something for nothing) that make up the majority of spending - plus some interest that resulted from overspending by Dems and Repubs (see so call Reagan Revolution that was only a sound bite).

Big government\'s are always out of control. People who like big government programs (entitlements) need to except the other aspects that big government brings like meddling in world affair to the exclusion of any but their own interests.

Originally posted by ryounger:

It should be understandable that a nation that was founded in Western tradition also be influenced by religious beliefs. It is silly to think that part of our tradition be thrown away because of a very few people who do not believe in a higher power. Perhaps the argument could be turned around in saying that people who don’t believe in a higher power should respect those who do believe. Remember that we do have freedom of religion.
Depends what you mean by founded. This country was organized by its founding fathers (many not Christians at all - Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Paine, Madison) to keep religion out of all aspects of government. While I agree some are a bit too sensitive about others saying prayers at football games (\"Dear God, Please let us kill the guys and win!\"), GW Bush wants to fund them - through the back door. This is, I believe, very dangerous for both the religion and the government. Religion is a tradition of most of the people not the government. One of the primary purposes of the US Constitution/Bill of Rights is to protect the minorities (the few) from the majority.

Nick Phoenix

11-01-2002, 03:57 PM

Russ,
I read your post and it makes me truly sad to think that many Americans think like you. Your perspective is so twisted and based on such intolerance and hatred, that I am overwhelmed.

Nick Phoenix

11-01-2002, 05:30 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:
[QB]Hey Nick, you are clinging onto liberalism, but unfortunately your liberal rhetoric won’t save you.

1. If we are not at war, then the past 11 pages of this post (by your argument ) are moot.

RESPONSE: There is no formal declaration of war. Bush has seeked the advantages of being at war without an actual declaration. We are not at war, yet. So you lose on this point.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:

2. Pay attention to the news broadcasts. Listen to the false political commentary. I know that you can’t tell, because you agree with the liberal bias. That is what is so puzzling about your complaints against the media. Why should you hate it if they are preaching what you believe in?

RESPONSE: The media is deceitful. The media just echoes both parties lying soundbytes. They don\'t dissect and analyze ANYTHING contoversial. EXAMPLE: Some Bush spokesperson came on TV last year and announced that \"Bush is the greatest education president this century.\" This has no basis in fact and is actually terrifically untrue. This was broadcast on CNN and when it was over the anchor said nothing.- cut to commercial. Often times, though, there would be a Democrat who would argue with that statement. But, in the end, the Democrats would believe the Democrat and the Republicans would believe the Republican. It is up to the anchor to ask what basis in fact is the statement being made. They should dissect the amount of money Bush has spent on education, his voucher policy and what types of reforms he is planning. They don\'t do this. They proliferate this type of polarization. It is criminal. The liberal bias you sense is real . It is simply a way of consoling the public and making them feel that they are being looked after. You are being played. Without this there would be revolution. If there was a real media, the Republicans would lose some of the poor white trash vote when they figured out that it\'s not the fault of the black man that they are not doing well. And The Democrats would defect to other parties like the Green party when they figured out that people like Clinton do not practice what they preach. So finally someone has explained the media to you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:

The word of focus in this sentence is CAN. The liberals had 40 years to try their war on poverty. The rate of poverty is still the same as it was in the 60’s. Well I guess that to liberals the intent is worth more than the result. The conservatives believe that people should not label each other as minority or majority. We believe that as fellow Americans everybody has the opportunity to succeed, not just the White liberal elite. The sad socialist welfare system, set in motion by the liberals is a poor excuse to keep a certain population in check. It has done nothing to very little to solve the problems of society.

RESPONSE: So what you are saying is that liberals have been in control of this country for the last 40 years? Are you a mental patient? Liberals have been unable to turn most of their legislation into a bill never mind actually get it passed. You lose on this point.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:

“universal healthcare”

Nick, what do you really stand for? You say in one sentence that you are for a smaller government, yet you want to create the LARGEST entitlement program in the history of the United States? What is your hidden agenda here?

RESPONSE: No hidden agenda. Help those who need it. Pay for it all with defense cuts. In fact you can pay for it all with the money they are spending on that new fighter jet. It is unneccesary. We are already 2 steps ahead of our \"Enemies.\" See? a reasonable solution.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:

“freedom fo ALL religions with no bias towards Christianity”

I totally agree. That means that the Atheists in your crowd need to recognize religion in the first place.

RESPONSE: No this a free country. No one needs to recognize anything. There IS complete religious freedom in this country. That extends to those who have their own beliefs, like me, or those who believe in nothing. Say after me \"FREE COUNTRY FREE COUNTRY.\" This country and many others were founded on the principle of complete seperation of church and state. You are a traitor to that principle. You will be hung at dawn.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:

Which means let states like Idaho control their own water rights, manage their own forests, and keep socialist Washington DC liberals out of the business of forest management. That means give control to the states.

RESPONSE: You have a point. So now all we need to do is get rid of state corruption, educate their leaders in scientific matters and we\'ll be fine. There is great book called \"Cradle to Cradle\" which describes a strong future and environment, through simple intelligent new methods of production, with NO REDUCTION IN CONSUMPTION.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:

“decreasing the power of corporations”

What? That means business should be controlled by the state? I thought that you were for SMALLER government. The more that government sets controls on business, the more freedom is actually taken away from the people. This is an example of the old liberal philosophy that the intention is what counts, the result doesn’t matter.

RESPONSE: Our current corrupt huge corporations are a direct result of Republican legislation. The more power these corporations get, the less power the people have and the harder it gets for small buisiness. The guy that was promoting apricot pits as a cancer cure was destroyed by the medical corporations. You LOSE on this one buddy.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:
“diverse and decentralised media”

More big government Nick?

RESPONSE: No, Rush. No government at all. Just a limit on how many media outlets that one person can own in one state. Don\'t you want a diverse perspective?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:

Wow, that’s what I always thought about the liberals. Seriously Nick, as I said before in at least TWO posts, if the third parties wish to have a snowballs chance in heck, we need to join our efforts and put aside some of the things like you just said in your closing sentence. I said it once, and I’ll say it again. If you want to persuade people that your thinking is the correct way, then you can’t be negative or inflammatory towards them. If you want freedom and a smaller government, if you want control to go back to the people, then you must accept the fact that people are smart enough to govern themselves. We have seen Communism, where the government controls everything from art to national defense. They tried to build a society where everybody is equal by force of the government. Ultimately the people suffered as a result. That is why I think the United States is so great. We are a nation that is governed by the people, not by a group of mysterious elite. We may have poor, yes but we also have the freedom to not be.

RESPONSE: This country is governed by the mysterious elite. You just don\'t have a clue. Example: Why is social security going to be insolvent? Did you know it is a foreignly owned corporation? Did you know that they are not required to pay dividends? This country is not governed by the people. Most people are against the war in Iraq! People would be smart enough to govern themselves if they actually were told what was going on. That\'s the problem- We are nation built on lies. There is a great future possible if we are honest with ourselves. Most poor have no freedom to \"not be poor.\" I have been aggressive in my discussions, because the world is in trouble. I don\'t hope to persuade you of anything. You are a closed thinker. I am hoping to persuade other more reasonable types who are on the fence.
I think it is clear that you have a grim future to offer for all of us.

End of discussion for me.

ryounger

11-01-2002, 05:43 PM

Hey Nick, you’re back! Glad you could come back to the debate.

“I read your post and it makes me truly sad to think that many Americans think like you.”

Well the truth hurts, doesn’t it. I couldn’t resist Nick, you stuck yourself out there on this one. :-) But seriously, I don’t think it’s sad that you don’t think like I do. Just because some people have a different perspective on the world, doesn’t make it wrong. Remember, “no man is an island”

This is the fun part.

“Your perspective is so twisted and based on such intolerance and hatred, that I am overwhelmed.”

From this thread by Nick Phoenix.

“\"You know, three years ago in December, Molly Ivins, an observer of
Texas
politics, wrote: \'For an upper-class white boy, Bush comes on way too
hard.
At a guess, to make up for being an upper-class white boy.\'”

\"Now, wealthy individuals won\'t pay. They\'ve got big tax cuts already.
Corporations won\'t pay. They\'ll cook the books and move overseas and
then
send their contributions to the Republicans. Rich kids won\'t pay. Their
daddies will get them deferments as Big George did for George W.”

Is class warfare not based on intolerance and hatred Nick?

Again and again and again. Here are a few more.

“But, you can be sure that if more people read books, there would be a war on books!”

“The world doesn\'t have to be such a viscious, kill or be killed, place. We could start by stopping the funding of right wing dictators. This is a proven fact and yet it continues today under pathetic disguises. What do you Bush babies have to say about that?”

What is a Bush baby? Sounds like a slur to me.

“So, because we are the biggest and most powerful nation on earth, that makes us always right. What do all those rinky dink little European nations know? Screw them all. Until they figure out how to economically imprison and dominate the planet like us, they should just shut up.”

This sounds like negative science fiction Nick. Perhaps you should read some romance books.

“You have somewhat confirmed my suspicion that maybe Americans do know what a bunch of bastards we are”

“much less than all you cowboys think”

“Why doesn\'t Rush yell about that? Why? -because he is a liar and a dispicable greedy, fascist pig.”

“You guys are like Laurel and Hardy. I can picture the stupid smiles on your faces as you write this stuff. Kind of like a certain illegal sub-moronic president I know.”

And the best one.

“You have been programmed to react the way you do. You are robots.”

Nick, the liberals use class warfare, gender warfare, environmental warfare, and race warfare in their arsenal of weapons to falsely accuse the conservatives. Any time a conservative tries to make a rebuttal we are labeled as “intolerant and hateful” You try to divide our nation with one way thinking. This is really what is wrong with the United States. The divisive politics of the far left are only meant to divide our nation. Everybody in the US has the opportunity for success, which is the American dream. Your last comment, “Your perspective is so twisted and based on such intolerance and hatred, that I am overwhelmed” throws out any credibility that you had at the beginning of your post. You started a fire Nick, but I still don’t see any solutions. You hate the President, do what the conservatives did with Clinton and wait it out until the next election. Quoting liberal zealots does not make one enlightened. If you say things like, ” I read your post and it makes me truly sad to think that many Americans think like you.” , then you have already lost your argument. Convince me Nick! You’re a smart guy! That means dig something up on some Democratic presidents that we have had. Show me that the entire government needs reform. Don’t give me a spectacle like they just had in Minnesota. Give me some corruption that we had with JFK, Johnson, and Carter. You are blinded by Bush, it only tells me that you are still sore about the election of 2000, nothing more.

Russ

ryounger

11-01-2002, 05:56 PM

Hey Nick, your last post proves that the liberals are into name calling. I take great offence by this statement.

You lose Adolf

Anti-Semitism now Nick? I\'m offended. Maybe if you lost a loved one in WWII in Germany, perhaps you would change your mind. I am done with this Nick.... Perhaps you should READ the forum rules.

Russ

JohnGrant

11-01-2002, 06:54 PM

Turning into a pissing match, don\'t you think?

Maybe we\'d all be better off at this point if we stopped the ad hominem attacks.

Also, let\'s try to define our terms. I notice, Russ, that you use \"Socialist\" in the same breath as \"Liberal.\" Maybe there\'s an overlap. Fine, then tell us where, if at all, you think they are different political perspectives.

Also, Russ, I notice you said at one point that \"class warfare\" is a product of intolerance. An example might help. (I\'m used to quite a different definition of \"class warefare,\" something a kin to the way in which 19th century British economists use the phrase: you know: the \"working class\" as one set of \"interests\" --not to be exploited--and the \"bosses\" or \"ruling class\" has an opposite and incompatible set of interests--to make a profit.)

I\'m not saying the definition is right or wrong, only that this is how I\'m used to the words being used.

Peace.

John Grant
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")

Mel Tron

11-01-2002, 07:04 PM

Well I found myself caught up in stop-and-go traffic on the Queen Elizabeth Way, in Burlington Ontario and I thought.....

Geez..... this where those Northern Sound Guys have their offices near by. And I thought... it\'s NOT REAL. We exist on someone\'s Hard Drive in a foreboding land of ice and snow that virtually no one knows.

IT\'S NOT REAL! IT\'S NOT REAL! It DOESN\'T EXIST!

but truthfully, it matters.

JohnGrant

11-01-2002, 10:05 PM

To think that when my parents were kids, Hamilton Bay would freeze right up in winter. You could drive cars across it. Winters now are too warm. Why we don\'t even get snow any more! (It\'s them pesky corporations, you know, messing with our air and water!)

John G.
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")

ryounger

11-01-2002, 11:36 PM

Hi Hans, thanks for clarifying your statement.

“I have often wondered exactly what people refer to when they say they are opposed to \"big government\". It is mostly said with such contempt, and even hate, that you\'d think they are probably right, because, how could anyone wish for something so \"despicable\". Now, what are they really referring to?”

Good question Hans

I believe in the original government set in place by the original founders of the US Constitution. This is a federal government that has the function of providing national defense, printing and maintaining a standard currency, moderating disputes between the states, and uniting the states. Unfortunately the government started to change after the War of Southern Independence. From this time on the government has slowly been eroding the power of the individual states, and therefore it has grown past the original intent. Hans, in the end liberalism doesn’t work out to help the people, it only makes people more dependent on the government. Here are some examples

1. Socal Security was originally slated as a sort of insurance policy that would give Seniors a little bit of assistance to help combat the rise of inflation. This was meant to be a supplement to retirement savings. Some Seniors are now stuck in a position of poverty because they are trapped into the government providing them a living. The sad truth is that it is a system that will fail if nothing is done to fix it.
2. The war on poverty was a well intentioned idea, but in the end it caused many people to be dependent on the government for their livelihood. Dependence on government is the way of the liberal mindset. The intentions are good, but the results are a disaster.
3. The environmentalist movement did set good regulation for industry, but it also ruined forests by allowing too much growth, the Spotted Owl fiasco put hundreds of good people out of work, and ruined their livelihood. I’ve seen it first hand.
4. The Democrats want to spend more money on education, yet it seems like we are spending plenty of money on it. The Department of Education has lost MILLIONS of dollars over the past year alone. That is money that cannot even be accounted for. The Democrats say that the public school system is in disarray. They have already thrown a bunch of money at the problem. Here’s an idea, audit them like the evil corporations have to. Make them accountable.

“You gave a good idea of what YOU are referring to as \"big government\":

”Health care when you or your children get sick.”

I pay for health insurance. I don’t need a bloated big government program to help me.

”Legislation that prevents corporations from becoming more powerful than the people and their elected representatives.”

Don’t people have the right to succeed? Should the government have the right to tell people haw much they can earn? Corporations wouldn’t have to give so much money to elected officials if there weren’t so many laws.

”Diverse and decentralized media.”

This should be done by the markets, not by a government controlled media.

THAT is scary.”

Big government is, yes.

“It is also scary to see someone argue against \"real education for all with real funding\". The reasoning being that: \"every child is properly taught what the liberals want them to know.\"”

I don’t think that you will find very many people who are against education. On the same note what is scary is that one of the largest and most important government programs does not have any checks or balances. It is scary that they can’t even be audited, and it is scary that Democrats don’t want to fix it, they just want to throw more money at it.

“But scariest of all, to see you unprovoked pick on the smallest minority: Those who do not have a religious belief. A group that is already outcast in the U.S.”

It should be understandable that a nation that was founded in Western tradition also be influenced by religious beliefs. It is silly to think that part of our tradition be thrown away because of a very few people who do not believe in a higher power. Perhaps the argument could be turned around in saying that people who don’t believe in a higher power should respect those who do believe. Remember that we do have freedom of religion.

“Religious freedom?

Scary!”

In deed. It is scary that there are people who wish to wipe out any kind of religion in secular society.

Russ