Zimmer-esque choir?

[KingIdiot]

What libraries are out there that will give me that big choir sound that big hollywood action movie composers like Hans Zimmer and Trevor Rabin have? I\'m interested in finding out what they use to create the sounds that were used in the Rock and movies like that. Great for Vid Game stuff I\'m sure http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

is there a specific one out of the top libraries that focus on these types of sounds. I know SOV is supposed to be great in all areas, but I\'m looking for a specific type of sound, kind of whats in many Keyboard/Synth patches for choir, but bigger. I\'ll get SoV soon enough since I did hear an do like the Boys Choir sounds

[Dis]

Great question!
I\'m sure there are lot of sample libraries out there which aren\'t available on normal market. Everyone can hear that SOV is so-so quality, nothing really good, very synthetic, etc. And in many films and computer games, there are many of synth/sample libr. sounds so far much better sounding than SOV, P. Siedlaczek\'s, etc. Yet in games from 1994 (so old) are better choir sounds than SOV is - for example in Betryal at Krondor CD ver. But it\'s the same about other instruments - especially String sections and orchestral percussion.. Just listen for example to track Lucia vs Zophar (Final battle) from game Lunar Eternal Blue, and you will hear so great string section, choir and percussion Vitous or Siedlaczek never can beat. There are really lot of examples - Might&Magic6, Mechwarrior2 and much much more. And sure movies - (synth) choir samples from sountracks like Titanic, are nowhere near where SOV quality is - they\'re about generations better than SOV. This means that Vitous, Siedlaczek for orchestra, SOV for choir are NOT best, neither near the best. But I think to get some of really quality choir sample CDs is very difficult, maybe impossible. The same about strings, orch. percussion, etc.

[Damon]

Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard qouted Spectrasonics \'Symphony of Voices\' to be the best choir and voices CD made. You can go to \'Time-Space\' and hear the demos of the voices. Brilliant and breathtaking! Female solos, Gregorian monks, vowel to vowel voices, boys choirs, solo boys, voice and choir effects.
The 5 CD set of voices is incredible and is a wopping 600 bucks!
I hope I win on I-won to get it. LOL

[KingIdiot]

Actually I\'ve worked with SOV before on a project. It was to help a friend on a project he was working on. I spet some time cleaning up the choir sound, with editing and filtering and crossfading. I loved the way it sounded, but I didn\'tget a chance to hear the full library, only the stuff he laid down . I did some really neat tricks and got some VERY realistic sounding choir sounds. I\'m looking for the stuff that Trevor Rabin and the like use tho. You can tell they are fake choirs, or samples but they sound the same on EVERYONE\'s stuff, so I know they are definately not custom samples.

I also know that many people make their own custom samples, especially people in the Vid Game market just because of distribution and liscensing issues. I may end up doing some of this on bigger Projects,....one day. As for right now, I have to take it easy on the rentig of gear and musicians so I make sure that I have enough to live on. If I got a few projects every year, I\'d be all over it!

[Dis]

Damon, what you\'re saying about SOV is surely what Spectrasonics want us to think about quality of SOV. But the reality is very different. There are so so much movie soundtracks and video games out there with better synth/sample libr. choir sounds than SOV; so it\'s more then clear SOV can\'t be best. I think better than to belive publicity from Hans Zimmer etc. and demos with expensive effect processors used, is to hear other choir sounds yourself. For example in Titanic soundrack track 3 Southampton there is a lot of synth choir used and the quality is so much better than SOV (even than SOV with hard effecing). Tell me your opinion on SOV after you listen choir sounds from games Mechwarrior 2, Betrayal at Krondor, Lunar Eternal Blue, Might&Magic 6... They are all different sounds and samples, but every of them sounds far better than SOV.
KingIdiot, editing, filtering and crossfading can improve quality of sounds, but from thin flat choir samples can never make really great \'live-like\' choir. On the contrary great, clear samples of choir needn\'t too much effecting or editing and nevertheless sound great and breathtaking. I absolutely understand you need better samples than SOV. As you told about Trevor Rabin samples, they surely aren\'t custom samples as well as many other sounds from movies, games, etc. I think even the libraries from video games are not mostly custom, it\'s rather an exception.

[Thomas_J]

I\'m almost falling out of my chair, laughing while reading Dis\' comments on Symphony of Voices. What are you going on about man? are you confusing SoV with something else, or are you just plain tonedeaf? I can agree to a certain extent that SoV sounds mellow and soft, but Peter Siedlaczek\'s classical choir is called for when a stronger sound is needed. Your remark on James Horner\'s titanic, about the synth choir sounding way better than SoV does, has GOT to be most ridiculous thing I\'ve heard since the bible, and it leaves me wondering if you even know what a choir is. And regarding the titanic choir... who on earth convinced james horner to go with that stupid choir synth line? It completely ruins the music. He should have left it out, or used a real choir instead, or even PS\'s classical choir! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Then you\'re going on and on about the choir sound of the old rpg games, and if that is your idea of a good choir sound....

You can indeed get the thick choir sound (or close at least) used in so many of zimmer\'s scores, (trevor rabin used SoV in armageddon so don\'t give me that \"Spectrasonics wants you to think...\" crap.) but it takes a fair amount of work. First you have to remember that a choir alone doesn\'t sound nearly as full and grand as when mixed with the full orchestra. Depending on how it is mic\'ed, it generally lacks alot in the lower frequencies (being limited by the natural frequency register of the voice http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif. If your choir sequence sounds thin and doesn\'t quite break through in the mix, don\'t get tempted to crank up the volume. It would sound unatural if the choir seems louder than the orchestra. You could have layered the whole chord badly. A typical error is keyboard chord layering, with octaves in the bass and the chord with your right hand. If you aren\'t too familiar with choral harmonizing and orchestration, chances are you\'ll benefit from a book. There sure isn\'t anything wrong with peter siedlaczek\'s classical choir and SoV. Hans Zimmer\'s choir parts are accompanied by a very large sounding orchestra (skillfully mixed with unquestionably great samples). Peter Siedlaczek\'s extended classical choir library should work fine for your needs, as it is a bit rougher and crispier than SoV, but be prepared to experiment some with harmonies and orchestration.

Thomas

[Dis]

to Thomas_J:
(sorry for my bad English)
Hm.. I think Horner\'s Titanic synth choirs sound great. Sure, they sound a bit synthetic, but it\'s purpose. They bring great atmhosphere to soundtrack as well as many other synth instruments used. If you\'re saying: \"who on earth convinced james horner to go with that stupid choir synth line? It completely ruins the music. He should have left it out, or used a real choir instead, or even PS\'s classical choir!\" - then the only thing could came on my mind is, that you don\'t understand Horner\'s Titanic music completely.
I think copmaring Horner\'s synth choir to Siedlaczek\'s must be a joke. Siedlaczek\'s choir sounds so crappy, unnaturaly and synthetic and absolutely out of depth - if it would be used instead of original \"Titanic\" choir, it would completely ruin the soundtrack.
I agree SOV sounds fine if it is properly mixed with quality instruments (real orchestra sounds etc.), but if you load a instrument from SOV into an Akai sampler it sounds thin (that still may be OK) but also completely out of depth. And also a bit synthy (not as Siedlaczek\'s choir but enough). On the contrary choirs from games like Betrayal at Krondor or Lunar Eternal blue sound far more naturalistic than SOV - there are crystal clear sampled Aahs which sound realy like clear realistic impressive human voices and not like SOV or Siedlaczek\'s strange sounds. I will try to explain it as simple as possible:
Major differences between SOV and choirs from games like Betrayal at Krondor or Lunar Eternal Blue are:
The samples (waveforms) of Lunar (Krondor and many others) choir are far more naturalistic than SOV ones (more close to real human Aahs).
Choir sounds of Lunar has strong sound and great depth itself (not fake by expensive effects processors), SOV and Siedlaczek has none - even with medium quality effects processors they sound still out of depth and unnaturally, they sound good only with very expensive processors or in a mix with quality instruments (esp. real instruments).
Lunar choir has great expression - yet very simple tune could have great atmosphere thanks to it, \'cos samples sound great not only in a big mix, but also in almost solo passages, thanks to samples depth and strong sound.
Lunar choirs sound very \"live\", SOV and PS cold and unnatural (if not passed through some very good effect processing)
Still a note about comparing SOV and \"Titanic\" synth choir: In this case \"Titanic\" choir sounds a bit synthier than SOV, but it has great, fat strong sound and expression SOV or PS could never have even with effects, great sample balance and programming (superb attacks etc.). It sounds like a lead instrument and nevertheless sounds a little synthier than SOV, it sounds more natural than SOV and especially P. Siedlaczek\'s choir thanks to its general sound.
It can be simplified very easy: Named game music\'s choir samples generally sounds \"MAJESTIC\" , with expression and \"live\" feeling and bring emotions to music tunes thanks to its great nature. On the contrary SOV and PS sound cold, like flat samples without real depth. Sure SOV sounds are good, but need very massive effect processing and mix with good sounding instruments, otherwise sound flat and without expression.
Note: I think your opinions are as they are because though you really good know SOV and PS, you don\'t know very well choir sounds from Lunar Eternal Blue, Betrayal at Krondor etc. I think it would be a good idea to very datail acquant with some named game choir sounds than to automatically lower them.
I\'m sure and agree that with SOV very good results could be obtained, but it needs complicated mixing, effecting etc. But many other choir sounds (as named above and much more) has far more creative sounds, with great expression in basic tones, not cold sounding, not out of depth..

[Thomas_J]

The more you talk about these game-music choirs, the more interested I become. But first let me clearify my thoughts regarding the Titanic choir:

I understand perfectly well what Horner is trying to achieve with this synthy choir. It has an immediate attack and works fairly well for the musical part it is written. The fact still remains. He shouldn\'t have used that synth choir. It is a horrible choir sound for starters. It has weird attack and release times (none actually), and it would have sounded much better with a real choir (which would have given the line some consistency and smoothness) and while we\'re at it, there\'s a male \"zommm\" which brings strong resemblance to the \"zomm\" samples in Peter Siedlaczek\'s classical choir... hmmm http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Anyways I\'d be really interested in hearing some samples of those computer game choirs you are talking about. Are you sure they aren\'t just recordings lifted straight out of some choral works? It could very well be. You say they have dynamics and expressiveness like real choirs. I\'m pretty sure there aren\'t any better alternatives to the commercial choir libraries available to us today, and they are working great for me. I myself could never wish for another library. I think both of the libraries sound equally impressive, although I tend to prefer the classical choir over SoV. I don\'t agree with your claims that expensive effect processors enhance the sound. I sometimes find my old zoom reverb box to sound better than the pcm 80 box! You can\'t use any of the orchestra libraries without reverb, but that goes without saying. They are highly dependent on a reverb unit. Doesn\'t have to be expensive though. I still think your impressions of the \"expressive and warm\" choir sounds are a little out of focus. Usually when you play with a keyboard choir patch, voices have been mixed together. Female and male on the same key. This might give the impression of a fuller and broader sound, but it doesn\'t sound like a choir as soon as you start playing around and no matter how hard you try, you\'ll never achieve a realistic choir sound. With SoV or Classical Choir you can fool people into thinking it\'s a real choir and not a synth. The synth choir in Titanic didn\'t fool me, and if you ask me he could have written the part for any kind of mellow warm synthpad, and set the release and attack times to 0. Then it would be more obvious that he was going with a synth line, intentionally for the sound of it. I remember when i first heard that choir in Titanic. I was pretty baffled that such an established composer would resort to such lousy samples when he had a real choir at his disposal. That part frankly annoys me, and although I agree that neither SoV nor Classical Choir would have cut it, he\'d be better off using a real choir or leaving it out. Don\'t get me wrong. I\'m not bashing horner. I love his music and he writes great themes. I just can\'t stand it when composers stack poor sounding synth lines on top of their beautiful orchestral recording. It\'s like making the final touches to a lovely oil-painting with crayons!

Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-23-2000).]

[Chadwick]

And what\'s so bad about crayons?!

[KingIdiot]

well...uhm...ok

well can some one tell me what will help me?. I of course think that getting all the choir soudns I can sand mixing and layering will be the key...not to mention hiring a choir and sampling....but I\'d like to know where the best place to starts is.

as for vid game music.....being in the Cosnole Market for 11 years I\'ve come to find what I like i the \"sampled\" market


Most of the game stuff that uses internal Sound RAM hav VERY BAD loop points, BUT to think with what they deal with are GREAT!!! The Finaly Fantasy and SQUARE games sound GREAT! but hte sound designers have been at it for YEARS, and have really got a science down with kilobyte and sound quality.

A couple of the things I\'ve been impressed with have been with either \"demo CD\" or \"public domain\" tracks, or stuff that has beeen recording by real choirs. ... HOWEVER the Hans Zimmer and Rabin stuff that is TOTALLY samples soudns great. I love th \"HOLLYWOOD sound\" for the gmae stuff and I want to capitolize before Metal Gear Solid takes the whole market by storm.......

ugh


atleast budgets for music are getting bigger......or enogh to make me live http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Chadwick]

Mr.Idiot,
Would you mind pointing me to which Zimmer and Rabin tracks grab your attention?

I\'ve heard some Zimmer stuff which was real choir, but I\'d like to hear the sampled stuff to get an idea of what you\'re talking about.

Excuse me if I seem ignorant.

[Dis]

Thomas_J: If you would be interested in hearing some of those game choir sounds, I can make some short mp3 samples of them and upload them somewhere with comments. But this time I don\'t know about any ftp or site. I know there are free ftps etc. available, but thanks to my slow connection I did never take interest in it yet. If you would have some tip for ftp or http site which is easy acessible, where could I upload to, tell me and when I make mp3 samples, I will upload them there. (Yet if you could recommend or link some easy, small size uploader program).
As you told: \"Are you sure they aren\'t just recordings lifted straight out of some choral works? It could very well be.\" - No, they aren\'t, sure there are some in some games, but I recongize this. Those I\'ve talked about are surely some synth or sample libraries sounds, not ripped real choirs.
http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Still a note about Titanic choir, my opinion and impression is that that synth choir sounds great and it wouldn\'t be better to be exchanged for a real one. I think this sound fits to athmosphere just perfectly. On some tracks Horner didn\'t use this choir but a real one. For example in \"Southampton\" track there\'s a Male/Female synth choir and also boys synth choir; and in \"Titanic suite\" track the same part where in Southampton boys synth choir was used, is played by real boys choir. I think such combinations of synth and real instruments are great a make original interesting atmospheres not matched by other composers. And that it\'s better some tracks have those synth choirs than if every track would have a real one. I just like that sound.. but it\'s only my opinion.
http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I would be happy to have those library or synth with synth choir Horner used, instead of SOV. I exchange SOV with that library, anyone has it? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by Dis (edited 08-24-2000).]

[Synth2k]

Interesting discussion going on here! Regarding Symphony of Voices I have to say that it is a very nice library to work with (great sound and the samples play well). I\'m not certain that you can get a \"Hans Zimmer\" sound out of it as I\'m almost positive many of the choir aspects that he has in his music are either custom samples or recorded live (or a combination of the two). Many composers (including myself) have spent considerable amounts of time creating our own custom sample sets of various things that make noise in order to have something different than what you can buy commercially. Even game music composers make extensive use of custom samples, so I would not be surprised if many of the samples you are hearing in game music are custom and not available to the public.

To quote Thomas:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>I just can\'t stand it when composers stack poor sounding synth lines on top of their beautiful orchestral recording. It\'s like making the final touches to a lovely oil-painting with crayons!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Beyond the obvious synth choir used in Titanic many aspects of the orchestral score were synthetic, since samples were placed over top of the recorded orchestra in order to enhance the overall sound. I guess it was to make it sound bigger than it really is, and it\'s an effective technique if used properly (also quite common especially in many of Horner\'s scores). Also as far as I know Symphony of Voices was used to a great extent in Trevor Rabin\'s Armageddon score (get the score-only release and listen closely, you can hear some of the SoV bits if you pay attention). I know SoV has been used in a lot of other scores, but none of their names currently come to mind (I don\'t think Titanic is one of them but I could be mistaken). There is a review up of SoV on Sonic Control btw.

Ryan.

[Thomas_J]

I can see that our conceptions of good music is very different, Dis. I have always hated computer game music, especially chip music and modules. I think composers who use synths in their orchestral works have different perspectives on the use of synths than people like me, who have grown up in a world full of synthesized music. Even though mod and chip music was great in the beginning, I\'ve grown to hate it because of its lifeless and static sound. I have come to a point where synthesized digital music no longer give me any satisfaction. Older composers are getting \"tired\" of the sound of the traditional orchestra and are resorting to synths, whereas composers like me would never even think the thought of messing up the live orchestra with a horrible synth sound.

It takes a long time to build a house, but to demolish it takes but a few seconds.

These are my rigid and perhaps a bit narrow-minded opinions on synth sounds. It\'s just the way I feel about it.

This is however not to say that I don\'t like midi orchestration. But it must sound like a real orchestra. If it doesn\'t, then I will probably not like it.

Again I hope you don\'t get me wrong. I really love clever mixing of samples with live orchestra, and I love to orchestrate on the pc with gigasampler, but I would NEVER touch a synth pad sound nor a synth choir. I have four different synths here, each one has a couple of choir patches, and they all sound like ****. Korg trinity, Yamaha Ex5, roland jv80 and w-30 (with a few choir discs for the internal sampler which sound even crappier than the one in titanic hehe http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif. You might wonder why I have all those synths when I hate the sound of them? well I used to be a synth freak, and before gigasampler came, I had a stack of samplers (Which I sold to buy gigasampler). And before that I was a tracker. I used fasttracker for 5 years. I used to \"compose\" a lot of techno,trance and dance music, but now I\'m all sick and tired of that. The orchestra is my passion!

I don\'t want to upset anybody! These are just my opinions, and if the annoy anyone, (and they probably will!) keep in mind that people have different opinions. Very different in fact. I did not set out to start a fight, just found it really weird that Dis prefered the Titanic choir over SoV and Classical choir!

Horner should thank you personally for your loyality to him as a true fan :=)

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-24-2000).]

[Dis]

Ryan: I totaly agree with all you wrote above. \"Zimmer-like\" sound seems impossible to get from SOV. You are true Titanic insn\'t a score with SOV used. In some soundtracks, as you told, SOV is used, like in Armageddon, but I don\'t think that in some distinct or lead passages, but rather for some background fills.

[This message has been edited by Dis (edited 08-25-2000).]

[Thomas_J]

Ryan, like I said in an earlier post on this topic, Armageddon was scored with a lot of samples, including SoV. I don\'t condemn the use of samples to enhance and enlargen the sound of the \"live\" orchestral recordings! On the contrary. It\'s a wonderful and cheap way of getting a larger orchestra sound. What I don\'t like is obvious SYNTH sounds. Like the horrible ones in Titanic (and alot of earlier goldsmith scores) Like when zimmer uses a filtered Juno (or something like that) pad in his \"beyond rangoon\" score. I can\'t stand it. I\'m not talking about orchestral samples, but pure synthesized sounds.

I didn\'t say you can get the hans zimmer sound out of SoV alone. Mix it with Classical Choir and you are starting to get very close. I have the armageddon score, and it is full of SoV, playing their role as either background ambiences or in unison with the bold brass and string themes. I think armageddon is 1000 times better in terms of sample quality, compared to than any game music I\'ve ever heard (except those like heart of darkness with original orchestral score by bruce broughton), and even though I don\'t like Trevor Rabin\'s music (especially his zimmer sound \"ripping\" and his cheesy melodies), his midi orchestrations impress me. So does his use of SoV, which was done much more skillfully and smoother than the synth choir in Titanic.

Thomas

[Synth2k]

You also have to remember that the Media Ventures team sometimes works very closely with one another on a lot of their projects. Also, when working on film music producers can be pretty demanding when it comes to the \"sound\" that they want for their film which could explain why Trevor Rabin\'s score sounded very similar in style to what you would expect out of a Hans Zimmer score. Often you are basically hired to write in a way that fits the vision of the people who hired you. Many times, just going about and doing your own thing will get you fired and it is not uncommon for a score to be rejected (this even happens to established composers such as Jerry Goldsmith\'s score for Judge Dredd or Ennio Morricone\'s score for What dreams may come).

The MV crew also has some very clever engineers and that makes an incredible difference when it comes to the sound you get out of the orchestra and the samples as well. I think synths have their place in music and often I treat them much like I would treat any other instrument in the orchestra like a violin or a french horn. Each synth can have a different and very unique sound that you can use to create that subtle texture in the same way that you would use real instruments. Too many synths can be overkill I agree, but there are some interesting and unique sounds that they can create that you can add to your canvas of sound if you know how to apply them with skill.

Ryan.

[This message has been edited by Synth2k (edited 08-25-2000).]

[Dis]

Ryan: Again, I absolutely agree. Synth sounds aren not better or worse than real instruments sounds, they\'re another and have their own atmhosphere and function.

Thomas: As you told: \"I think armageddon is 1000 times better in terms of sample quality, compared to than any game music I\'ve ever heard (except those like heart of darkness with original orchestral score by bruce broughton)\" So I can say only one - you dont\'t know well game music. But I would aprreciate if you would link anything with only synth sounds used and with PS or SOV choir, what would sound better than gm1 choir from that another topic.

[Thomas_J]

Ryan; Excellent points! and I can agree with much of what you are saying, and I bet Trevor was hired because Hans zimmer was busy, or something. Trevor was probably asked to make it sound like zimmer, or he\'d be out of work. That happens a lot I think. Very sad. As for synth sounds I guess it\'s just a difference of preference. I can\'t stand synth sounds, and avoid them at all costs. You like them. Fine. I won\'t discuss that anymore. The same goes for instruments in the orchestra. Some of which I dislike, like clarinets (although I\'m beginning to appreciate them, maybe I\'ll come around with synth sounds one day too?) and saxes (not an orchestral instrument imho).

Anyway this topic got way out of hand. Dis originally claimed that synth choirs are better than SoV and Classical Choir. I have still to disagree with that, and until he posts something that sounds even remotely close to the quality of SoV and CC, I will stand by my opinion. The GM1 piece didn\'t impress me. It might have impressed someone else. But not me.

Btw Ryan, is Jerry Goldsmith\'s rejected score to Judge Dredd any good? (Is it available?) I have heard the trailer music, and I was told it had music from the rejected Goldsmith score, but I cannot be certain!

Thomas

[Synth2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Btw Ryan, is Jerry Goldsmith\'s rejected score to Judge Dredd any good? (Is it available?) I have heard the trailer music, and I was told it had music from the rejected Goldsmith score, but I cannot be certain!

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there is a \"bootleg\" available of the rejected score but I\'m not sure (I know there is one for Ennio Morricone\'s What Dreams May Come, I have heard it). As far as I know the music in the trailer to JD is by Goldsmith with excerpts from the rejected score.

(Sorry for going far off topic here).

Ryan.

[Gulliver]

is Jerry Goldsmith\'s rejected score to Judge Dredd any good? (Is it available?) I have heard the trailer music, and I was told it had music from the rejected Goldsmith score, but I cannot be certain!

As far as I know Goldsmith didn\'t record any music for the film other than that trailer music. Scheduling conflicts, too many assignments at the same time, etc...

Regards,
Gulliver.

[KingIdiot]

Sorry its taken me so long to get back to this thread, been purty busy. Well I was going to pooint out the Armageddon stuff for Rabin, and some of the Zimmer stuff from a few years ago--(actually mostly Media Ventures stuff), but I figured they\'d be using ALOT of the same samples. I\'m sure there are samples mixed in with live choir or custom samples, so I don\'t expect to get the SAME sounds, but I\'d like to know what choirs would be creat to mix together to get a fairly expressive and maybe \"over-dramatic\" choir sound. That \"militiristic\"/Sampleridden sound of the hollywood noise bashers (I like to call them Digital Zero composers, since its just blatantly LOUD stuff) would work well for games.

As I said I messed with SoV a little and have gotten some good results with mixing and filtering and stuff, but I didn\'t get to hear the full set since I was only mixing. I\'ld like to know what other Choir CD\'s are out ther and even get some ideas on how to go about getting my own Cutsom Samples done for fairly cheap (even if they wont sound GREAT)