another piano sample thread - joy!

[J. Whaley]

I hate to start another thread about piano samples, but I\'d like to know what you guys recommend for a really nice pop piano. The sound I want is like the piano on Vanessa Carlton\'s album. The song \"A thousand miles\" is what I want a piano to sound like. I\'m kind of tired of buying samples that I don\'t need. I have Malmsjo and I love it.. but it just won\'t work for pop. I have Giga piano and - well you know the problems there.

Some people have suggested Kip\'s Bosendorfer... but it\'s $200 and I\'ve spent so much on gear lately I can\'t afford a purchase that\'s not exactly what I want. I\'ve heard some of the new C7 library demos and haven\'t been super impressed, but maybe someone could comment? Thanks!

[JonP]

For the kind of stuff you\'re talking about, one of the guy\'s in our studio uses an EastWest Bosendorfer and has tweaked it so it works nicely. I think its because its got a very compressed sound to it that can work well if its mixed correctly. He also likes one from the Bigga soundset (sorry, can\'t remember if that\'s even the correct name but its something like that).

Me, I prefer the Kawai MP9500 preset pianos for the sort of stuff you\'re talking about, but I don\'t do much in the way of pop music and its not a sample library piano.

[Mattias Henningson]

1. Bigga Giggas Studio Grand 88 (\"http://www.biggagiggas.com\")
2. Vintaudio C7 (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")

I would recommend both of these for the purpose.
The Studio Grand is really a bargain for what you get! It\'s got slightly more bite than the C7 and a fuller bass. Both pianos plays really great!

/Mattias

[Gary M. Thomas]

You know... I\'m still using the \"EastWest Steinway B\" and think it sounds just great! There are quite a few piano CD ROMs out there right now... but I kinda like the Steinway B\'s sound. Gary images/icons/wink.gif

[J. Whaley]

INtresting. The demos seem to kind of have a harshness to the sample with both of those pianos. (the studio Grand, and the Vintaudio). That\'s why I haven\'t got either one yet. From what I can tell they don\'t seem to be as smooth as what I would like. BUT, that\'s why I\'m posting. Any other thoughts anyone?

[Rob Elliott]

Originally posted by J. Whaley:
INtresting. The demos seem to kind of have a harshness to the sample with both of those pianos. (the studio Grand, and the Vintaudio). That\'s why I haven\'t got either one yet. From what I can tell they don\'t seem to be as smooth as what I would like. BUT, that\'s why I\'m posting. Any other thoughts anyone? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I am exactly in the same boat. I use PMI\'s Steinway (and EQ the heck out of it to marginally sucess). I would love a C7 that has presence but not brittle. For under $100 I am almost thining the Bigga is a no lose.

Rob

[Alan Russell]

JWhaley,

All I can say is that my $200 bucks was worth $2000 bucks of inspiration and BTW Kip\'s featured Gibson 1948 Archtop and Desmond Guitars are also invited to the wedding too!

http://www.motifator.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=1,2,4&Board=Songs&Number=43740&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1 (\"http://www.motifator.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=1,2,4&Board=Songs&Number=43740&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1\")

Alan Russell

[Alan Russell]

Gary Thomas,

IMHO, the way to really hear a great sample piano is to hear it in a song-arrangement in the pop, jazz and ballad genre.
I exclusively use Bardstownaudio\'s Imperial Grand in all of my latest work. What I truly love about it, is that it doesn\'t have to be tweaked at all and is so natural in its raw state as a sampled piano for all of the pop and Jazz genres I love to score.

You\'re invited! (Link Below)

Alan Russell

[phillip alexander]

This is a real tough call. There are quite a few exceptional libraries on the market today. The \"old\" East West Bosey is still one of my fav\'s but as fare as the new libraries are concerned Kip\'s is my weapon of choice.

Phillip

[sjduck]

I think a lot of it has to do with mic placement. I\'ve come to the conclusion that close miced pianos sound harsh and far miced ones don\'t. The problem is, far miced pianos are lacking in tonal width and clarity yet close miced ones are full of tone. You just can\'t win. Perhaps the piano samplers are playing things too straight? How about modifying the original recordings with additional processing or layering of other piano/artifical tones - in the same way that Yamaha does with its digital pianos? It might sound odd, but it could just produce the piano we\'re all waiting for.

Steve

[JonFairhurst]

The Vintaudio piano is nice if you want mic variation. It includes close, player-position and far.

[john g]

I\'m still testing the PMI Bos. I use ONLY the \"wet 8 layer sustain\" sample together with the \"release\" sample. And I do not use the lowest vel layer (ie nothing below 16) because the lowest layer of this sample has a distinct rumble. I don\'t use ANY other subset of the samples that comprise the full version of the pmi bos: certainly none of the \"dry\" samples, they don\'t sound like a real piano, and not the 16 layer sample--it\'s too fuzzy.

Working within those pretty tight self-inflicted parameters, however, I get what I think is the ONLY piano sample currently available that sounds unequivocally like a live recording of a REAL piano.

The much-revered East West Steinway B comes close, but no cigar: TOO HARSH--and of course the vel. transitions are terrible.

I\'ve listened to mp3s of all the other piano samples. And I own over half of the expensive ones. None of them comes close to sounding truly REAL. They might be bright; they might have terrific bass; they might sound real good in a mix; they might be super smooth---but they just don\'t sound REAL. Usually the problem is TIMBRE and TONE. The tone of a REAL piano is super-distinct, and ultimately very, very hard to sample convincingly.

Not only me, but all the classical piano listeners I\'ve played the main piano samples on the market too agree unequivocally that, in one way or another, they\'re not quite there.

But I repeat: there\'s One Exception, and that\'s the PMI BOS (not the PMI Steinway, though.)

Caviat: the classical folk I\'m talking about are unrepentent, dyed-in-the-wool, classical nuts--who do NOTHING BUT listen to classical piano all day and all night. They have a pretty specific mind set and a pretty specific ear. It may not be everyone\'s cup of tea. There are other ears out there.

I\'m very impressed by Hans\' Steinway sample so far. This piano may turn out to be a great one.

J. G.

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")

[Lougheed]

Hey John,

Just this week, I have been setting up my new system, and will return soon (probably starting tomorrow) to exploring the world of GStudio and Kontakt pianos! (My ears have somewhat \"cleared\" and it will be interesting to see if I\'ve changed my mind about former conclusions.

I agree that the Art Vista Steinway sounds very promising. When I hear it, I think \"real piano\". I\'m really looking forward to this release.

Anyway, in the meantime, I\'m going to explore the version of PMI Bosen that you are using, and see what I think. One difference is that I\'m playing \"New Age\" (what ever the h e l l that is) and you are playing Mr. Bach).

Did you ever get the Maple plugin stuff working?

Lawrence

[Lougheed]

John,

OK, I\'ve started to experiment.

A couple of quick questions.

(1) what mod wheel position or CC value to you use?
(2) have you edited the sample to eliminate the lowest velocity level, or have you adjusted your MIDI controller to accomplish this?

Thanks,

Lawrence

[ed hamilton]

The Vintaudio C7 is anything but a bright yamaha C7.
Its actually has a bit more mids than I would have liked.
Its super playable. Very smooth.
The demos only seem dark when compared to those other libraries whos pianos are so dark that they are unusable in a R&B/Gospel/Pop Context. imho

[J. Whaley]

so basically what i\'m hearing is there\'s not any appropriately bright sample piano libraries? Cause Dark has certainly been my impression from most of the libs out there....

[Gary M. Thomas]

Hey ya\'ll... I know that this site has been mentioned her at least a thousand times, (and forgive me for mentioning it once again), but it seems to be very helpful for comparing digital piano samples. Check it out! images/icons/cool.gif
http://purgatorycreek.com/pianocompare.html (\"http://purgatorycreek.com/pianocompare.html\")

[john g]

Hi there Lawrence:

Don\'t touch the MOD. Use the controller to eliminate the bottom layer. Looking forward to your material on the BOS, that is, assuming you\'ve decided to go with the sample!

Re Maple, haven\'t had a chance to give it a serious go.

Cheers, JG.

PS Why would I adjust the MOD (unless I was mixing with a dry pmi bos sample)?

[Alan Russell]

John G.

A piano sampled is heard for its quality in infinate ways to ones ears depending upon what the instrument is interacting with. The touch of your ten fingers as well as the instruments in the score leads one to believe that this technical talk of how the sample was recorded IMHO is not relative to the art form at all.
There are too many opinions out there and too many novice listeners. If the majority of listeners dig what they are hearing in a TOTAL score and production, this is what truly counts.

JMHO, others may differ,

Alan Russell

[Worra]

Originally posted by Alan Russell:
John G.

A piano sampled is heard for its quality in infinate ways to ones ears depending upon what the instrument is interacting with. The touch of your ten fingers as well as the instruments in the score leads one to believe that this technical talk of how the sample was recorded IMHO is not relative to the art form at all.
There are too many opinions out there and too many novice listeners. If the majority of listeners dig what they are hearing in a TOTAL score and production, this is what truly counts.

JMHO, others may differ,

Alan Russell <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well said! Would Jimi Hendrix guitarplaying be considered to have a lower standard if he had played a Stagg guitar........
But, this is a tech forum in a way, so I guess the only relevant thing to talk about here is how samples are recorded and made. Then it\'s a matter of taste.

[Lougheed]

Originally posted by john g:
Why would I adjust the MOD (unless I was mixing with a dry pmi bos sample)? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">The mod wheel controls different things, depending on which program is loaded. For the \"Wet B290 8-layer + sustain\", the mod wheel controls the release time.

More specifically, from the manual:

\"You can use the modulation wheel on your master keyboard to control the EG release time settings. With the wheel all the way down the relase time is short (approx. 0.2 sec in the middle octaves and 0.4 in the bass) with the wheel up the release time is raised with 0.9 sec.\"

Lawrence

[john g]

Thanks Lawrence. I should check that out. Trouble is, I\'m in the throes of renovating (myself) this old house we\'ve moved into. Can\'t seem to find the time to read or do anything.

My post concerning piano samples was intended to generate controversy. My views aren\'t quite as hard core as they may seem.

Are discriminations, judgements, evaluations, etc., about sample-quality purely subjective or intersubjective, formed and cultivated over time and under specific cultural/historical conditions? Etc.etc.... The skeptic in me says yes. The idealist in me says no. All I know for sure is that the NO answer is more fun.

J.G.
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")

[Alan Russell]

Worra,

It\'s obvious to me that Jimmy Hendricks selected the best guitar for his art form.

As for me, I\'m in the wings waiting for a reed (sax) that can blow out a tune like confirmation in the Be-Bop genre. So far, there is none IMHO.

Alan Russell