VSL Announces Multi Impulse Response Reverberation and Mixing Engine

[peter269]

POSTED BY HERB TUCMANDL, PRESIDENT VSL, ON THE VSL WEB SITE

The Question

To what does symphonic music owe its incomparable power?

The composition. The musicians. The instruments. The interpretation.

Music needs space. The space.

The acoustic environment of a good concert hall, of an arena, or even that of an intimate room for chamber music, is much more than just its perceived external effect on a performance; the acoustic character of a room is not a separate, expendable cog in the mechanics of sound. The room´s \"voice\" - its resonance, reflections and acoustic characteristics - is always an interwoven, inseparable part of the music. It determines the reverb, the tone color, the spreading and dampening of sound, the clarity of the language and melody, and countless other facets of the psycho-acoustic experience.

It is the essential resonance that binds together the tones of dozens of orchestral instruments into a unified body of sound, forming a whole that is much more than the sum of its parts.

Real space. No two instruments are alike. No two spaces are alike.

In creating their works, composers must use symphonic sound combinations to drive the emotional message. Ideally, the sound of the space - whether it be a concert hall, opera house, or arena - is one of the primary colors in their palette. Still, through the centuries, only a privileged few have been allowed to test and refine both at once: the effect of the instruments within the performance space.

The samples of the Vienna Symphonic Library, for the first time ever, have put all of the sounds and playing techniques of the symphony orchestra into the creative musician´s hands - directly, with immediacy, authenticity, and complete flexibility, with new technical solutions.

And now, the picture is complete:

Sampled reverb. Sampled reverb. In full 3D.

The Vienna Symphonic Library is pleased to add a critical ingredient to the alchemy of orchestral music production - real spaces. An advancement brought forth with the same uncompromising spirit that made the library become a standard virtually overnight. With the same absolute authenticity, flexibility, and perfect integration as the award-winning instruments of the Vienna Symphonic Library.

Restrictions of the past

Of course, there are numerous other ways of creating \"reverb\" artificially. Some of them modern music production could hardly do without. But all of them lack the inimitable characteristics of real architecture, that certain magic, that makes the famous concert halls of the world so unique.

Other approaches involve recording the instruments inside a fixed acoustic space, like a concert hall, and capturing both the instrument sound and the reverb together. Seems to be a covincing solution - but the creative restrictions of this method are massive: Spatial characteristics are frozen and unchangeable, the user has no flexibility to alter the size or acoustic properties of the room, or to change the space altogether. Plus, each time more than one note is played, the sound of that reverb is duplicated over and over again. Play three notes, the result is the cumulative, layered sound of three halls! Small, intimate chamber music or merely \"atypical\" creative orchestrations for modern pieces are hardly possible. - Innovative sampling techniques like those used in the Vienna Symphonic Library´s pioneering Performance Set exclude rigid methods like this from the outset, because the realization of unlimited, authentic legatos or repetitions simply doesn´t work with \"built-in\" reverb.


The magic of great architecture. The new technology

The basic idea is simple. Just as it is possible to digitize (i.e., \"sample\") an instrument with all of its wealth of expression, one can also digitize the characteristics of an enclosure, be it a small room or a concert hall. To do this, the \"response\" of a real space to a precisely defined acoustic impulse is recorded, and then \"imprinted\" onto an acoustic signal in a mathematical process called Convolution. Theoretically, the result is the same as if that signal had actually been recorded in this space.

Up to now, the immense computational requirements of convolution barely allowed more than two or fourchannels of sampling reverb, which was derived mostly from unidirectional mono impulses. The Vienna Symphonic Library takes this technology to the next level, capturing the great concert stages of the world in their full glory, wall to wall, floor to ceiling, in all three dimensions! MIR - Multi Impulse Responses - are the key to success: This engine places each instrument of the orchestra into one unified acoustic space, and the space of the composer´s choosing.

No fakes.

Pure.
Deep.
Authentic.
Flexible.
Creative.

MIR - Multi Impulse Response

The VSL Sampling Reverberation and Mixing Engine

Now\'s the time!

A new approach to Impulse Response Convolution in the shape of impulse response of spatially segregated multi-mono impulses

The step into the 3rd dimension:

An award-winning concept

Highly specialized impulses in up to seven direction, horizontally and vertically

several hundred user applicable impulse-responses for each room, according to instrument and position

intuitive graphic Interface

complete integration of the instruments of the Vienna Symphonic Library with the MIR-engine

Real time and offline modes

utterly convincing, three-dimensional enveloping of each instrument according to the room, its position therein, and its relative volume

... and even more to come The Vienna Symphonic Library´s founding principle (which already won a prestigious award last year, even when it was only a drawing board concept) , is as simple as it is compelling in its fundamental logic: the \"stage\" of a concert hall can be subdivided into a number of sectors and from each sector a special impulse can be released in up to seven directions.

The impulse response can then be recorded using surround techniques from ideal positions in the hall. After the impulses are processed, the user simply places defined instruments and instrument groups of the Vienna Symphonic Library onto this virtual stage - with the help of an intuitive graphic interface. Due to the close association between the library and the reverb engine, the typical directional characteristics of each instrument are taken into consideration when formulating the \"correct\" sets of impulse responses. For instance, the horns, which are directed to the rear, can be assigned different spatial aspects than the frontally blaring trumpets.

But the Vienna Symphonic Library has even expanded on this already revolutionary concept. The reverb engine is actually a complete mixing station! With a few intuitive movements, the user can control every parameter of a virtual orchestration. Volume, position on the stage, distance from the virtual microphone, all of the necessary spatial parameters are connected in one macro environment. (Of course here are expert settings in the background enabling more refined control of the environment and instrument placement.)

The results can be heard in real-time in preview mode. The high-definition final results have to be be calculated offline (but it´s merely a question of time before even conventional computers are fast enough to enable high-definition real-time convolution). Output on up to eight audio channels covers even extravagant surround formats - allowing the complete recreation of the entire acoustic space in 5.1 and other three dimensional systems.

The future

The innovative ideas of the Vienna Symphonic Library are by no means exhausted here. Our ongoing research and development explores the cumulative effects of adding individual instrument groups´ resonances with each other - every instrument being, as it were, a space by itself. The goal is to blend all of the sonic nuances of individual orchestral instruments and groups with the acoustic characteristics of the room at large to create a complete acoustic picture with unprecedented realism. Combining the acoustic properties of the very small with the all-encompassing sonority of the very large is a revolutionary step toward achieving virtual acoustic perfection.


Indeed, we live in exciting times.


[The first stage of the VSL MIR Engine is expected to reach the market in 2004]

[P de Caumette]

For those undecided about which library to choose, decision might be easier now...

[peter269]

Originally posted by KingIdiot:
yes I kniow,

I\'m saying I\'ve had to keep it a secret until now images/icons/smile.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Ah!

[tob]

would be nice to listen to it.. are there any demos of it yet?

/Tobias

[PeterRoos]

For those not yet checking the VSL forum, here\'s the announcement in the news section of the VSL site:
http://vsl.co.at/index?http://vsl.co.at/news/mir.htm?cmsqflag=1 (\"http://vsl.co.at/index?http://vsl.co.at/news/mir.htm?cmsqflag=1\")

PS: Ashif: better train that dog of yours to be always on highest alert - you know too many trade secrets... :-] Beware of KingNappers.

[KingIdiot]

yah, I\'m jsut glad its secrets here, instead of porn industry secrets.

man the MIR\'s are going to be really fun!

[Scott Cairns]

Gee, the surround sound feature and depth placement of instruments is THE selling point of EWQLSO... This certainly makes our decision tougher.

[MartinL]

AMAZING! Thanks VSL! Thanks! images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif

[JonP]

Well, we know what the VSL bunch think of QuantumLeap\'s approach then!. They sure didn\'t hold back any views in the promotion.

It will be very interesting to compare the two different approaches to placement now. Certainly sounds exciting although its obviously not going to be realtime in the near future whereas QLSO IS realtime.

[KingIdiot]

Its nice to have this secret out in the open

all I hae to say abuto this is YAY!!!

have I mentioned

YAY?!?!? images/icons/smile.gif

There\'s still some other secrets that will make this even better of course, but for right now

YAY!! images/icons/smile.gif

When I put my swami hat on I have visions that impulse technology is going to have an impact from not one, not two, but many sources.

We\'re gonna have alot of fun discussin\' this stuff over the next couple of years images/icons/smile.gif

[peter269]

it was a public post, so it\'s not a secret! No violation of confidences here!

[KingIdiot]

yes I kniow,

I\'m saying I\'ve had to keep it a secret until now images/icons/smile.gif

[peter269]

Originally posted by JonP:
Certainly sounds exciting although its obviously not going to be realtime in the near future whereas QLSO IS realtime. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It\'s worthwhile to consider when making comparative statements like this that the philosphical approaches to both libraries, including choice of software platforms, are completely different. Each producer has his own vision that he\'s worked towards, and each is unique.

The only thing truly similar is that they\'re orchestral, and even within that, there are differences.

[Simon Ravn]

I agree totally with Peter. VSL will always sound different from EWQLSO, no matter what you throw at it. VSL has a more European approach, which shows in playing style, instrument choices and so on. EWQLSO is (oddly enough) more American in the approach. Both libraries will be inredibly useful, and I am sure that a mix of them will work great. Not unlike any past libraries either. I will still be using SI, GOS, SAM, DDBE, BOB etc. - one library surely doesn\'t rule out the use of another.

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by peter269:
POSTED BY HERB TUCMANDL, PRESIDENT VSL, ON THE VSL WEB SITE

To do this, the \"response\" of a real space to a precisely defined acoustic impulse is recorded, and then \"imprinted\" onto an acoustic signal in a mathematical process called Convolution. Theoretically, the result is the same as if that signal had actually been recorded in this space.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Rather than comment about this absurd statement myself, I asked EWQLSO\'s recording engineer, Prof. Keith O. Johnson if I could quote from the EWQLSO manual about \'recording in large spaces\'. You will see clearly why VSL\'s 2004!! technology is flawed conceptually.

To remind you - Prof. Keith O. Johnson is recipient of two GRAMMYS, plus eight additonal GRAMMY nominations for his 90 plus Classical Recordings - many of which are used to demonstrate high-end audio equipment.

Quote from Prof. Keith O. Johnson -

\"A one-path sample, even with extensive electronic support, won\'t create the varying spatial energy relationships that occur when musicians play different notes. The sounds from behind a trumpet are different from those in front, and their effect in a good space is quite audible and is much a part of the whole listening experience. The real instrument sound has both perceptions. Small room and anechoic samples reveal this effect as a serious problem. Sound radiation from instruments is very complex and its effect on direct as well as environmental sound perception is important. Consequently, the EWQLSO sample library was recorded in a big space, and has multiple sample paths.\"

That is why you can\'t accurately recreate the complex three dimensional reflections of real instruments recorded in a large space artificially. There is simply too much spatial information lost to recreate this realism when you record instruments close up in a relatively small room, as VSL did.

Second, there is no audible compounding of the hall ambience in EWQLSO with multiple instruments, any more than what occurs naturally, as the hall reverb time is too short for this to occur. The decay of one note is virtually inaudible at the time the next note is played - plus we recorded sections playing together to make sure this didn\'t occur.

Third, the EWQLSO \'real\' concert hall ambience is on separate tracks, and can be \"totally controlled\" by the user.

I have really tried to stay out of the VSL vs EWQLSO debate, but this is so misleading and unproven (until sometime in 2004!!) that we felt compelled to respond.

Take care,

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www..com (\"http://www..com\")

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
EWQLSO is (oddly enough) more American in the approach.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Why \"oddly enough\"? - it was recorded in an American concert hall with mainly American musicians (there were some Russian soloists).

[PeterRoos]

I think this is about emulating, not recreating. Suppose new convolution techniques can fool most ears most of the time, then who cares about the actual techniques involved (number crunching or professional miking and recording)...

I bet you are more irritated over the timing of this announcement than over the actual value of this approach images/icons/cool.gif

[Kenn159]

There is no doubt that VSL has made major contributions in the art of sampling .
A very impressive company.

Im just not sure about the statement that playing a multiple note cord is layering and compounding the reverb one note at a time, any different that what occures natually in a acoustic enviroment.

Up to date we haven\'t been able to acurately emulate real world enviroments with artificial reverb, the closet I have come is sending the audio signal out to a monitor speaker and micing the room.
you degrade the signal abit ,because of longer signal path and more conversions , but the reverb is real.

I guess we will know in 2004[the release of the impulse] when we have a chance to compare with our ears, the most critical judge.

Would like to ask VSL, what kind of bit resolution will you be using in your impulse to represent the density of the reverb reflections?

[KingIdiot]

JonP,

they\'ve even mentioned in the release that there will be some realtime options as well as offline rendering options. Depending on the convolution algorithm used and impulse length (or needed length)

Doug,

well thats exactly what VSL\'s approch is hoping to change. 7 way impulse sampling for full 3d response, allowing for dirction of sound to be part of the convolution process. I dont think any one person has done something like this (yet).

This approch should allow for some extremely controlable and fairly relistic effects. Really being able to slightly maniipulate things on the fly even. I guess I\'ll have to fool around with HRTF impulses to see what might be able to be done.

I think Simon was being sarcastic images/icons/wink.gif

Anyway, I agree with Simon, you\'ll use them all if you can get your hands on them all. This isn\'t Lord of the Sample Libs we\'re talking about here.

[Simon Ravn]

Originally posted by dougrogers:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
EWQLSO is (oddly enough) more American in the approach.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Why \"oddly enough\"? - it was recorded in an American concert hall with mainly American musicians (there were some Russian soloists). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Do I really have to put a smiley after everything sarcastic??? images/icons/smile.gif OK I thought it would be obvious that EWQLSO was more American than VSL, so it was SARCASM! graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif

[JonP]

Originally posted by KingIdiot:
JonP,

they\'ve even mentioned in the release that there will be some realtime options as well as offline rendering options. Depending on the convolution algorithm used and impulse length (or needed length)

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">My mistake then. Reading it, somewhat speedily this morning, it seemed to suggest that complex placement and rendering using (multiple?) versions of their reverb engine would not be possible in realtime, at least not in the meantime.

I\'m the last person to remain faithful to any one library and absolutely agree that, as ever, the best results will probably be had by using a mixture of libraries. But there seem to be a lot of people, on these forums and elsewhere, who are looking for a single solution big orchestra, wether for unity of sound or financial reasons (or both). To them issues like this will be important as to which purchase they make.

[mike harper]

this will be worse the the MAC vs PC debates of yesteryear.
for me , as of now its still both! i like the articulations choice of vsl and especially the performance tool of VSL. yet at he same time after listening to the one and only QLSL demo a million times
i am really starting to like the overall natural sound of the hall. there is a different overall sound quality too.
also to me the mixing approach sounds very attractive. to say one or the other is built on false premises and flawed concepts comes off as
silly . especially when its from one of the developers. this \"either or\" mentality for me is
always not a option.

[Atombo]

Originally posted by Kenn159:
Im just not sure about the statement that playing a multiple note cord is layering and compounding the reverb one note at a time, any different that what occures natually in a acoustic enviroment.

Up to date we haven\'t been able to acurately emulate real world enviroments with artificial reverb, the closet I have come is sending the audio signal out to a monitor speaker and micing the room.
you degrade the signal abit ,because of longer signal path and more conversions , but the reverb is real.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">When they first announced VSL nobody really believed them. Look how that turned out. Of course I also don\'t know how good it\'s gonna sound, but I do have a lot of trust in them.

[Nick Phoenix]

Let me start off by saying that I really admire what the Vienna library has accomplished and I think they have started a whole new chapter in the sample library world. It doesn\'t take a genius to see that there is a competetive thing happening between EWQLSO and Vienna. Until now, I think it\'s been silly, because the libraries are SO different. But, this announcement changes that and is basically saying \"We know you don\'t like the sound of our library that much, but that will all be fixed in 2004 because we have better software engineers than anyone else on the planet.\" All the talk of multi-directional impulses is nice, but doesn\'t change the fact that close recordings are missing crucial information that comes out of the instrument to begin with. You can\'t add what\'s not there. I am a big fan of sampled reverb and own the SONY DRE-S777 (with the surround upgrade). Many of the Sony algorithms(and some of my own) were done with multi-directional impulses in surround. This is basically what Vienna is talking about, except they will have an interface to manage it all (very cool). However, it will basically sound like Altiverb. I have run the close samples in EWQLSO through all kinds of convolution and the result is nothing like the other 2 sets of samples in EWQLSO. It\'s actually pretty terrible in comparison and doesn\'t even sound like the same samples. So this new Vienna feature will help with task of getting a good ambient mix, but it won\'t change the basic tone. It will also require alot of time to accomplish the rendering.
I think it\'s good news for Vienna users, as long as you can monitor it in real time (lo-res) with the entire orchestra. Another BIG company that you might know is doing the same thing as Vienna right now. They are much farther along, and I have heard the results. images/icons/wink.gif

[csduke]

Originally posted by dougrogers:
That is why you can\'t accurately recreate the complex three dimensional reflections of real instruments recorded in a large space artificially. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Assuming that many of us like the sound of recordings from the film industry, please clarify the following statement in light of the Doctor\'s statement. Given that film soundstages are small compared to large halls and are acoustically damped, how is it that film recordings sound so good?

Thanks.

[Sovereign]

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
\"We know you don\'t like the sound of our library that much<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Speak for yourself. images/icons/wink.gif

Quite frankly, I\'m glad I went with VSL and not QLSO given the somewhat pompous attitude you\'ve shown here.

[PeterRoos]

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
But, this announcement changes that and is basically saying \"We know you don\'t like the sound of our library that much, but that will all be fixed in 2004 because we have better software engineers than anyone else on the planet.\" <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Oh boy, as Harrison Ford once said: \"now your getting nasty\"

[MartinL]

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
Methinks the lady doth protest too much. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Good one Bruce! images/icons/wink.gif

[mike harper]

nick wrote: But, this announcement changes that and is basically saying \"We know you don\'t like the sound of our library that much, but that will all be fixed in 2004 because we have better software engineers than anyone else on the planet.\"
ha,ha ha!!! this is getting good.
maybe those guys are building a silent hall soon!! if i remember correctly they they choose this route specically to \" take advantage of new reverb technologies\" oh no. now they realized they screwed up!! keep up these post. they \'re
a pisser!!

[Z6]

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
However, it will basically sound like Altiverb. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Mmmm.. Let me see? VSL performance instruments running through a Multi-dimensional Altiverb? This is in some way supposed to be not good?

Nick, you\'ve sold me completely on VSL and this new impulse technology.

Thanks mate. images/icons/wink.gif

[greatzed]

I prefer the East-West Vienna QL Symphonic library!

[Lazul]

Originally posted by greatzed:
I prefer the East-West Vienna QL Symphonic library! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">How can you prefer it when its not even out and how can VSL and EWQLSO be competitors when the latter is not even being sold yet. For the past year and right now on fact EWQLSO has been vapourware. Wasn\'t it supposed ot be out in march?

[MartinL]

Originally posted by Lazul:
For the past year and right now on fact EWQLSO has been vapourware. Wasn\'t it supposed ot be out in march? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">No. It was supposed to be ready in January...

http://www.northernsounds.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000040 (\"http://www.northernsounds.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000040\")

[greatzed]

\"How can you prefer it when its not even out and how can VSL and EWQLSO be competitors when the latter is not even being sold yet. For the past year and right now on fact EWQLSO has been vapourware. Wasn\'t it supposed ot be out in march?\"

Actually, it was a joke. East-West Vienna QL Symphonic Society library. Don\'t you see? images/icons/wink.gif

[MrArkadine]

I\'m sorry, but this looks like it\'s getting out of hand. Obviously, the delays in the EWQLSO are due to problems on Native Instrument\'s side, and I\'m sure that Nick and Doug are upset enough with that situation (since it seems that their end of the job was done in time) without anybody reminding them about it every few minutes.

The only problem I see here is a lack of proper coordination or communication between East West and NI, because if EW had got realistic information in the proper time, they wouldn\'t have announced the library so soon and let drag the thing for so long.

Obviously, the library will rock when it is released, and hopefully it will be successful enough to justify the substantial investment in visionary work and effort by Nick and Doug.

One last thing that I keep thinking about though, is that if the library had been released in its time in Giga format, that would have been the better decission (from the logistic point of the finances). To have a product out (even in a platform that EW don\'t seem to believe in due to reasons that have been talked about, but a platform with a very substantial user base) instead of no product at all, with a competing library eating part of the pie every single day that goes by would perhaps have been the path to go. (Easy to say this in retrospect, because I\'m sure that these delays on NI part weren\'t planned at all).

People shouldn\'t be pissed about the library being so late, but rather illussioned in it\'s potential, and giving thanks that such important developments heralded by these two teams (VSL and EWQL) are taking place.

Ruben

[Simon Ravn]

Haha Peter - I love that line - and the scene:) AND the movie.

[Nick Phoenix]

C\'mon. I didn\'t say that. Please read carefully. I think the VSL statement says that by saying that the room is the most crucial part of the sound. I was shocked when I read that. The statement admits there is a crucial part of the puzzle missing, but all will be fixed next year. We are not going to sit around and let VSL make the bold statement that the room recorded in doesn\'t matter and they can magically fix it with software. Our whole project is based on the premise that the room does matter.
Many of you have tried altiverb. Imagine altiverb with many more perspectives all mixed together, that\'s what they are doing, basically. It will sound better at times, but not much. It\'s similar to using a few different reverb units on your mix.

FILM SCORE SOUND- is so nice because of the large soundstage. The sound stage is large enough for good things to happen. It mimics the stage in a hall- sort of. Add a little lexicon to that and all is well. In EWQLSO you can work with the stage ambience only, if you want. Add a touch of reverb, even bad reverb and it sounds like a filmscore.

[PeterRoos]

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Haha Peter - I love that line - and the scene:) AND the movie. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">and the music! prolly recorded in a real Hollywood hall images/icons/grin.gif

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

[Dietz]

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
C\'mon. I didn\'t say that. Please read carefully. I think the VSL statement says that by saying that the room is the most crucial part of the sound. (...) <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">No. In a nutshell, it says that the room is _one_ of several important parts _of an orchestral experience_. \"Please read carefully.\" :-]

[KingIdiot]

oh boy


can I get a coke....

I mean a pepsi....

screw it gimme an RC Cola

[David Govett]

\"Obviously, the delays in the EWQLSO are due to problems on Native Instrument\'s side, and I\'m sure that Nick and Doug are upset enough with that situation (since it seems that their end of the job was done in time) without anybody reminding them about it every few minutes.\"

Thank you! And from what I hear, NI is lightning quick in fixing wrinkles. Also, they abosultely refuse to release this product without the copy protection and registration, even for beta. So I think getting that all working may have added to the logistics.

\"The only problem I see here is a lack of proper coordination or communication between East West and NI, because if EW had got realistic information in the proper time, they wouldn\'t have announced the library so soon and let drag the thing for so long.\"

Perhaps but also, there are things that come up in this industry that you never predict accurately. Also, you have to get the word out about your product as soon as possible and you always risk being behind schedule. Thats just the way it seems to go. They are also dealing with two different countries and continents and even language barriers. (though the Germans tend to speak better english then some of us actually. I\'ve had THEM correct MY grammer for God sakes. I\'m impressed!) Many things can be accomplished by email and phone but some aspects still require physical shipping back and forth as well.

\"Obviously, the library will rock when it is released...\"

It will!

\"One last thing that I keep thinking about though, is that if the library had been released in its time in Giga format.....\"

Here is the deal though. They decided on two important points.
1. No release without some copy protection. Everything is crackable but it still increases sales dramatically.
2. Nothing less than 24 bit pristine playback, period.

Hopefully, there may be viable 3rd party CP options that can be done and Giga 3 will provide 24 bit so it may be doable later, but certainly not right now.

\"People shouldn\'t be pissed about the library being so late, but rather illussioned in it\'s potential, and giving thanks that such important developments heralded by these two teams (VSL and EWQL) are taking place.\"

This crowd is easily pissed but quick to forgive once things are released and working.

Thank you for your kind understanding of my friends at EW.
Dave

[JudasCloud]

Hello sirs,

I am a potential VSL or EWQSL buyer and I must say that this bickering by the developers seems quite pathetic to me, and does not in any way make me want to purhase either product. Indeed, it makes me eyeball Sonic Implant Strings, Dan Dean Solo Woodwinds and SAM Horn even more than I currently am.

Perhaps this should be kept in mind. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

I will now list all of the faces that apply to this thread images/icons/frown.gif images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/mad.gif images/icons/shocked.gif images/icons/confused.gif

[greatzed]

Hey, Judas, you forgont one: http://www.gamingforce.com/forums/images/smilies/deal.gif

[MrArkadine]

Originally posted by David Govett:

This crowd is easily pissed but quick to forgive once things are released and working.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That\'s true! I\'m sure everything will be soon forgotten, and everyone will be drooling with the demos.

Take care,

Ruben

[KingIdiot]

Lee,

I think you\'re missing a major point tho, NO ONE has dont any thing at all like VSL with regards to MIR AND thir concept, so its impossible to know how it will sound. These samples aren\'t close mic\'d. They dont have a resonating hall, but aren\'t close mic\'d.

I started workign on some convolution ideas with VSL, and wanted to post, but I\'ve been caught up in other work. I want to get back to it, and will soon and share my results. Early stuff showed some promising results tho in terms of sound.

Mic convolution is another thing, it WONT sound correct without dynamic convolution. Plus I think the antares stuff was/is modeling technology not convolution. Totally different. Thats more like \"the Pod\", and possibly even MORE similar Roland\'s COSM technology than that (EQ curves to do the \"modeling\"

Anyway, I jsut find it REALLY lame that this is a thread about MIR, and some major advancements in technology and its turned into yet ANOTHER QLSO vs VSL thread, BY THE DEVELOPERS no less, and even more so an attack on VSL\'s technique to make their own product look better.

Of course there\'s product to be sold. I understand that, but some of the stuff is fairly demeaning to the concept itself, not to mention it feels like \"I\'ve got a bigger scwartz\" than you images/icons/smile.gif

That said, I think QLSO has some of the most beautiful sounding samples out there images/icons/smile.gif

[mike harper]

hey king or someone images/icons/mad.gif POST A DEMO! images/icons/mad.gif i can\'t way anymore! images/icons/frown.gif
` por favor

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by JudasCloud:
Hello sirs,

I am a potential VSL or EWQSL buyer and I must say that this bickering by the developers seems quite pathetic to me, and does not in any way make me want to purhase either product. Indeed, it makes me eyeball Sonic Implant Strings, Dan Dean Solo Woodwinds and SAM Horn even more than I currently am.

Perhaps this should be kept in mind. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

I will now list all of the faces that apply to this thread images/icons/frown.gif images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/mad.gif images/icons/shocked.gif images/icons/confused.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Judas,

Developers working at this level are very passionate about their work. The VSL press release basically dismissed our recording philosophy on the eve of the release of our product. Since we firmly believe their argument is false, we had to dispute it, and I think this is healthy as it provides another perspective for forum members.

At the end of the day you will make up your mind after listening to more demos (which are currently in development), checking out the actual product etc. etc.

But don\'t dismiss a product because people are passionate about their work and react accordingly, dismiss it because it isn\'t what you want. Otherwise it\'s you that will miss out.

Take care,

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www..com (\"http://www..com\")

[Sovereign]

Originally posted by dougrogers:
The VSL press release basically dismissed our recording philosophy on the eve of the release of our product.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Such nonsense. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Did it mention EW or QLSO by name? No. There was no mention of your product yet you still invade this thread with comments that _their_ product is the inferior one instead. How ironic.

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by Sovereign:
Did it mention EW or QLSO by name?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Please!!! - we\'re not completely stupid.

[Sovereign]

Originally posted by dougrogers:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Sovereign:
Did it mention EW or QLSO by name?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Please!!! - we\'re not completely stupid. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">So you admit QLSO is not mentioned, just the method of capturing reverb like you people at East West happen to be doing. images/icons/wink.gif

So, boohoohoo, cry me a river. I\'m sure poor little you feels all hurt. images/icons/wink.gif

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by Sovereign:
So you admit QLSO is not mentioned, just the method of capturing reverb like you people at East West happen to be doing. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">No - that\'s not what we are doing - we captured all instruments in three dimensions, they captured theirs in one, and now they are trying to artificially recreate what we have already.

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www..com (\"http://www..com\")

[esperlad]

Until we hear more demos, most everything that has been said is mainly speculation. In theory, three mic placments sounds great, but one demo is not enough to make a determination. I realize that the software is being fine-tuned, but Nick was able to produce *something* a while back. I see no reason why more demos cannot be produced and posted.

And then there is another other issue. The Quantum Leap orchestra has no pizzicato for the solo strings, or a celesta. There are not many celestas avalible today. VSL has one which will be released soon, and that is great. The x-sample instrumment sounds terrible, and the Post celesta is usable but only has one dynamic layer.

Another issue that I am concerned about is that most QL orch. instruments only have three dynamic layers. Most of the major sound collections today have much more than that.

I like to obtain samples that will get the job done with the articulations that I need. I am not concerned with a few comments that any developer may make. I cannot use something that does not exist, or that has not been released.

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by esperlad:
In theory, three mic placments sounds great, but one demo is not enough to make a determination. I realize that the software is being fine-tuned, but Nick was able to produce *something* a while back. I see no reason why more demos cannot be produced and posted.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">We wanted to present a wide range of demos from different composers, and in order to do that the demo creators needed a copy-protected version. That was only available recently. You will see a lot of demos from people that you recognise very shortly.



Another issue that I am concerned about is that most QL orch. instruments only have three dynamic layers. Most of the major sound collections today have much more than that.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">The demo creators have told us that this is the best sounding orchestral sample library they have - and they have them all!

Take care,

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www..com (\"http://www..com\")

[Sovereign]

Originally posted by dougrogers:
No - that\'s not what we are doing - we captured all instruments in three dimensions, they captured theirs in one, and now they are trying to artificially recreate what we have already.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">VSL has lots what QLSO does not have, the reverb is the least of my worries.


We all know you purchased VSL, so you have a vested interest in believing anything they say.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Uhm, no, Doug, I buy what I think sounds good. QLSO is not on that list. images/icons/wink.gif And c\'mon, who has the vested interest here, eh? It sure ain\'t me, I\'m not selling any of these things. Based on your track record you probably believe everyone who doesn\'t prefer your library is biased in some way or another. Well gee, too bad then, I\'m not loosing any sleep over it. images/icons/wink.gif

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by chocothrax:
Hey Doug I was wondering- has that release trails problem been fixed and now demo\'s are being made? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes, it was a software bug that is now fixed.

Take care,

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www..com (\"http://www..com\")

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by Sovereign:
Uhm, no, Doug, I buy what I think sounds good. QLSO is not on that list.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You\'ve never heard it, so how do you know?

[Sovereign]

Originally posted by dougrogers:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Sovereign:
Uhm, no, Doug, I buy what I think sounds good. QLSO is not on that list.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You\'ve never heard it, so how do you know? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">There was no demo released at all? Oh my, I must have been dreaming things. images/icons/wink.gif

Besides, QLSO should not be on my list in any case, it\'s vapourware and deservedly so. I wonder how many posts it\'ll take before you\'ll mouth off again on how your library is so much more realistic than anything else. Beh, the arrogance...

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by Sovereign:
the reverb is the least of my worries.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Right!!

The concert hall we recorded in cost in excess of $125 million to build. I guess they spent all that money just to have a nice looking building!

Even if you don\'t believe acoustics are important to the listening experience of an orchestra, VSL does, here\'s a quote from their press release -

\"The acoustic environment of a good concert hall, of an arena, or even that of an intimate room for chamber music, is much more than just its perceived external effect on a performance; the acoustic character of a room is not a separate, expendable cog in the mechanics of sound. The room´s \"voice\" - its resonance, reflections and acoustic characteristics - is always an interwoven, inseparable part of the music. It determines the reverb, the tone color, the spreading and dampening of sound, the clarity of the language and melody, and countless other facets of the psycho-acoustic experience.\"

I coudn\'t agree more.

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www..com (\"http://www..com\")

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by Sovereign:
Besides, QLSO should not be on my list in any case, it\'s vapourware and deservedly so.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It\'s not vaporware to the 100+ people that have worked on it for nearly two years.

Goodbye,

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www..com (\"http://www..com\")

[Munsie]

\"Quite frankly, I\'m glad I went with VSL and not QLSO given the somewhat pompous attitude you\'ve shown here.\"

History keeps repeating itself in this forum...

EW has once again proven (with their one/two punch combination of Nick&Doug) how NOT to gain public support for thier company or their products.

Amazing, they spend all this money on developing a product and can\'t afford to hire a public relations person.

Anyone seen the movie Dumb&DumberER? images/icons/smile.gif LOL!!

[Sovereign]

Originally posted by Z6:
Will the flute sound like a flute the way the VSL flute sounds like a flute?
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Uhm, how about \"NO\"? images/icons/grin.gif

[greatzed]

Geeze, guys, you remind me of the geeks who argue about which movie is better when one\'s not even out yet.

[tob]

I\'m so looking forward for a big orchestral library sampled with the beuty of a real hall. Doesn\'t matter how good a convolution reverb is.. it will never ever be as good as the real thing!!! Now, whip those lazy QLSO demo composers and put some demos online!!! images/icons/wink.gif

Don\'t get me wrong. VSL sounds awesome but it\'s no secret that I\'m a great fan of natural reverb... images/icons/wink.gif

/Tobias

[tob]

Now if the stage mic\'s with a little verb sound great, that\'s of course, a product that can be used under time pressure right out of the box.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Couldn\'t agree more:) That is one of the big arguments IMO.

/Tobias

[Z6]

Originally posted by greatzed:
Geeze, guys, you remind me of the geeks who argue about which movie is better when one\'s not even out yet. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">People do that? But isn\'t Lord of the Rings III better than The Blob?

No, this thread was an announcement of some very exciting technology. But then: The producer of a movie that isn\'t out yet started slagging off the development of part II of a successful movie previously released, and claimed that his own unreleased movie was, by default and stint of superior philosophical bent, better than both part I and part II put together.

Then the director of the unreleased movie stopped taking the pills and hallucinated that some marketing material from the planned part II of the first movie was really a cunningly designed slight on his superior, albeit unreleased movie.

Now, if the director of the second movie can ever figure a way to stop kids from sneaking into the back row for free, then he might release his movie, and take his rightful place amongst the immortals. But there\'s a book going on the odds that even if the director of the unreleased movie can stop those bloody kids, he\'ll still have a breakdown worrying about it.

This is better than the movies. Nick, the tortured genius, raging at the slightest criticism - he sends fresh muffins to street urchins in Africa, but he knows - deep inside - that he\'s bad.

Doug, the electric haired promoter, talking a dime to the dozen. Nick\'s mouthpiece, his benefactor and buddy: but count your fingers after you shake his hand.

Herb, the avant-garde filmmaker; stereotyped as the model of Germanic precision, but relentless in his pursuit of artistic perfection. \"How does he do it,\" cries Nick. \"He\'s developing weapons of mass delusion! We must destroy him so that we might all be free to enjoy the right way to sample!\"

Fade to black. images/icons/wink.gif

[P de Caumette]

There definetly are a bunch of biased opinions in this thread images/icons/frown.gif

I don\'t feel we can talk yet. Not based on one demo put together in an evening.

I am very frustrated with the fact that there are no demos to listen to yet but if in the end the strings kick *** , I might just grab them.

All the negative comments will be thrown out the window in a second if this library delivers.

So why waste time criticising?

unless it is to settle scores...

[Simon Ravn]

Z6, you crack me up. Keep \'em coming images/icons/tongue.gif

[David Govett]

\"No, this thread was an announcement of some very exciting technology. But then: The producer of a movie that isn\'t ...etc....\"

There is one difference between this and movies though. Most people will be able to afford to see \"BOTH\" movies. Thier tickets don\'t cost 3grand. (we\'ll.. I\'m not including popcorn & drinks though.) So, since there is the possiblility that some composers might actually not be able to afford both, then the stakes are a bit higher and the companies are going to each do their best to market their library and to try to make sure they get a fair portrayal here in the forum. Everything that both sides (QLSO and VSL) are doing is fair game in the market place. I wouldn\'t expect anything less from either of them as they compete. Enjoy it!
Dave

[Nick Phoenix]

Z6,
Nice to see you back again, adding your unique perspective. images/icons/smile.gif I don\'t know why you are so hard on me about the upgates. VotA has had 3 and gets a new utility in August. QL Brass will probably see a pop update soon. I am personally not a fan of beating a dead horse, though. QL Guitar and Bass is that. Still cool, but not worth messing with.
EWQLSO will have many updates, based on feedback, because the source material is worth the effort. We may even do a new session and a volume 2.

[RickD]

[/QUOTE]The demo creators have told us that this is the best sounding orchestral sample library they have - and they have them all!

Take care,

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www..com (\"http://www..com\") [/QB][/QUOTE]

I believe it ! images/icons/smile.gif As one with some experience in recording some small orchestral ensembles and trying to reproduce those performances with VSL hrns etc., and altiverb, I\'ve come to the conclusion that the sound of the instruments in the hall cannot be reproduced from dry samples with artificial reverb. That doesn\'t mean I won\'t be open to the MIR though, but I do have strong reservations about it.

I am very excited about QLSO and I will probably be buying it. But my biggest concerns with QLSO are in the peformances. Will this be the best sounding(tonewise) library that is plagued with all the midi pitfalls of today, or will it be playable. Will the strings produce that giant sucking sound in between notes or will they breathe with a true legato.

That\'s my 2 cents worth. images/icons/cool.gif

[Z6]

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
Z6,
Nice to see you back again, adding your unique perspective. images/icons/smile.gif I don\'t know why you are so hard on me about the upgates. VotA has had 3 and gets a new utility in August. QL Brass will probably see a pop update soon. I am personally not a fan of beating a dead horse, though. QL Guitar and Bass is that. Still cool, but not worth messing with.
EWQLSO will have many updates, based on feedback, because the source material is worth the effort. We may even do a new session and a volume 2. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Just kidding Nick (and maybe egging you a little to look beyond the release - there may be a much larger market than you think - you wish).

Right now, it looks like you\'re in the super heavyweight division up against an opponent who\'s fighting all the way from junior middle to super heavy. Find ways to sell to the rest of us after you\'ve snapped up all the hollywood types.

Let it all trickle down.

Good luck. And I repeat (just in case I sound a little nasty): I thought the first demo was superb, and I\'m sure the library will be fantastic. I wish you guys every success - you deserve it. (Keep sending the muffins.)

[MikeGraybill]

Z6 - I haven\'t gotten to laugh so hard in a long time! Thanks for that images/icons/wink.gif

The QLSO demo changed everything for me. At first I wasn\'t at all happy with a non-giga product, now, I\'m really, really looking forward to it. Whenever I doubt, I just listen to the first demo.

That demo showed me something I\'ve never heard in -any- sample lib so far, it\'s something rich and clean and full, and very hard to put words to. The sounds were absolutley beautiful. So that sold me on 2 parts of the QLSO instantly: the percussion set, and the brass set.

I will order both of those the moment they are shipping without a second thought. As far as the woodwinds and strings are concerned, well, I\'ll have to wait and hear what the users do with them for a bit. As a current VSL user, I am concerned that this facet of QLSO might not be all that I\'d like. So I will order based on the strengths that imo have already been demonstrated conclusively by a demo. I might hear some woodwind or string work that blows me away, and I hope I do! But if I don\'t, I already believe that I will be very happy with brass/perc.

One prob I\'ve always had when trying to build those monumental brass walls of sound with samples, are phasing problems. It\'s like, I hear the sounds, the chord sounds dynamic, balaned and good for the most part, but instead of lifting me up and into it the way a good LSO recording can, it just feels contained and somewhat 2-dimensional.

The brass sounds I heard in the QL demo made me believe that this will no longer be a problem, in the same way that VSL made good legato easy to achieve.

So, I guess all things considered, I just don\'t see these folks competing as much for \"will you buy me,\" but rather, \"will you buy me first?\" Wanting one and not the other to me would be like saying you don\'t want any violas in your ensemble, but you do want bassoons.

I love VSL, but it is not the end all, and I doubt QLSO will be either. Put them both together and I think I\'ll be happy for quite a number of years... like one of those guys that bought Miroslav and hid under his rock composing for 10 years and just came out to see what else had happened... why, because he was essentially pleased enough to not have to worry about it for a long while. (I doubt I\'ll ever get to be that guy... but I do harbor hope.)

(I just realized that nothing I said here has anything to do with the VSL reverb announcement... I think that\'s a really great idea!!! A more dynamic Altiverb for PC? Life just keeps getting better...)

mike

[Sovereign]

Originally posted by dougrogers:
It\'s not vaporware to the 100+ people that have worked on it for nearly two years.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Great for them! images/icons/grin.gif

Oh, you also misunderstood my reverb comment. images/icons/wink.gif

[KingIdiot]

Mike I didn\'t say I had it images/icons/wink.gif

I jsut said it has some extremely beautiful sounding samples

[Nick Phoenix]

I think some people are a bit repressed. I usually get into trouble on this forum when I am really honest. King was right, though. It\'s sort of unfair that this thread turned into a pissing match. The VSL announcement can only be a positive development.
The reason we responded is that we don\'t agree with alot of the VSL statement and we can\'t hear it until next year AND it comes when we are just about to release. Just how it goes. After all we announced way earlier than we should of. Too many unforseen hurdles.

[Z6]

hee hee

Hey guys,why not cut Doug and nick some slack here? They\'re doing it in their pants right now, and with good reason. They\'ve invested a huge sum of money, and time, in this project; they can\'t help being nervous/paranoid/terrified/exhausted/peed off/rude/arrogant. That pesky CP, huh? I hope it\'s worth it.

EWQL may have taken current sampling technology to its limit; its logical conclusion - although instead of three mike positions, they could try five or five thousand - how many do you really need to \'really\' capture \'everything\'? Do you have to stick a mike right up the horn section\'s arse to capture those \'difficult\' reverberations that convolution would miss? (We could stick a starting pistol up there I suppose - I\'ve met horn players who wouldn\'t even notice.)

Isn\'t this innovation versus culmination? The suggestion that multiple imaging (or any other \'solution\') couldn\'t possibly \'capture\' whatever it is that has to be captured is ludicrous. I don\'t know how good VSL\'s product will be but there is no reason why such a technology won\'t eventually lead to sounds that are better than \'real\' recorded sounds. VSL are not the only developers headed in this direction either.

Nick and Doug and others have gone a long way to eliminating the musician (that is, the poor guy who spent twenty years playing a dumb trumpet or bassoon and doesn\'t know a computer from a flying haggis), why not eliminate the acoustic space as well?

I liked the QLSO demo a lot. Sounded great. VSL didn\'t blow me down until Thomas J (troublemaker) posted a little doodle on a VSL perfomance flute: it did blow me away - it was \'live\' played right onto hard disk.

It is about more than what Doug and Nick would prefer it to be about. The market will sort it all out for them.

Personally, I like to buy from developers with a history of \'taking me with them\'. I recently installed updates from GOS, Dan Dean, Malmsjo and Post pianos (thanks guys - it really is appreciated. I can buy from you in the certain knowledge that you will fix any rough edges and even improve on the purchase over time. In short: I TRUST YOU).

VSL is showing signs that it respects the customer also. How are the QL updates going anyway? You know, the previous products? The brass, guitars, you know the ones I mean?

If I save my pennies, what will QLSO actually be selling me? Will I be embarrassed by the library in five years? Will people liken my efforts to a stylophone, or will those guys be right there with me, holding my hand, showing me respect (even though I am nothing, nobody, just a customer).

I would bet the house that QLSO will sound great - but it isn\'t the point. Outside a handful of top-flight composers who have limitless resources lies the \'real\' market. You can be as cheeky as you like to people who \'need\' your product, but the rest of us can be finicky.

So, what are the options for the plebs? What\'s in the light version? Can I buy individual instruments? How have you solved the legato problem, or repeated notes? Can I play it live? Will the flute sound like a flute the way the VSL flute sounds like a flute? Does the 125 million dollar space take care of everything?

Anyway, good luck with the library (seriously). I know it will be great (but that may not be enough for you or the customer, unfortunately).

[kid-surf]

Just to stay on the subject: Matrix III is better than T3

I\'d also like to take this time to say: See the film \"The Clearing\" when it comes out next fall...
As well, take your kids to see \"Artemis Fowl\" in uhhh? Well it hasn\'t been \'made\' yet, but? graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif

Um? Oh yeah, that sounds like a really great idea \"MIR\", cool! Guess I\'ll use it when it comes
out....

[Kenn159]

Quote
Just to stay on the subject: Matrix III is better than T3
Reply
You mean Matrix 11.
There is no Matrix 111.

[JudasCloud]

You mean Matrix 11.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">And you mean Matrix Reloaded.

[kid-surf]

No, I meant Matrix III, I can\'t remember what it\'s called? It\'s already done... images/icons/wink.gif
(side note: it\'s all tied together in the end) images/icons/wink.gif

I\'m just comparing something that isn\'t even out yet to something that is. graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif

[JudasCloud]

The Matrix
The Matrix Reloaded
The Matrix Revolutions

[SOD213]

Originally posted by chocothrax:
I haven\'t seen matrix 2 but someone who I know saw it and said it was the worst movie they had ever seen! hehe <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'ve seen worse, but usually that was when I was watching B-Movies on purpose. Matrix Reloaded was a *waste* of $8.50 .

[Nick Batzdorf]

You know, I\'m still amazed by Altiverb. It sounds so good to me that I sold one of my Lexicon NuVerbs (which are 300s on a card); I simply don\'t need two of them anymore. I also think the VSL sounds fantastic run through Altiverb - and that takes nothing away from EWQL, because it would be silly for me to form an opinion of it without having heard more than a demo at NAMM. It\'ll be interesting to hear what the VSL reverb does, because for space simulation, I find Altiverb (and most likely the Yamaha and Sony sampling reverbs) to be so far ahead of even the best reverbs we\'ve been using for the past 20+ years that it\'s just silly.

Am I too easy? Or is it just that for what I do, VSL and Altiverb happen to be the two most exciting products to come along since 1994 (when the Yamaha VL1 came out).

Or maybe I am too easy, because I thought Matrix Reloaded was a mediocre movie that was worth seeing for its amazing visuals (we saw it at an Imax theater). And I\'m sorry, but I even like the music! Certainly not a waste of money in my opinion.

[meeehoon]

I like Reloaded too!!! images/icons/grin.gif

By the way, I just gobbled up a Burger Kings \"Jack and Jill meal\", which is 2 regular fries, 2 regular cokes, a chicken burger and a regular Whopper... images/icons/blush.gif A bit the full now!!!

meeehoon

[Kenn159]

I liked Matrix Reloaded.
I personally am not impressed by the slew of movies out there that just reley on action an special effects only, to carry a film..
I think Matrix relaoded had a intriging story line and the effects were not your common garden varity.
The scene were the main character[The One] was fighting all those Mr Smiths while swinging on a pole ,blew me away.

Unlike all these other films like Charlies Angles etc that try to convince you that people can be suspended in air while doing action scenes , The reason that \'The One\'from the Matrix can do it is because he can do anything he believes he can in the Virtual world inside the computer matrix.

[pantonality]

One thing that hasn\'t been mentioned in all the back and forth of this thread, convolution tends to be CPU intensive. I remember seeing a review of Altiverb that basically said a single instance made a dual proc Mac crawl. Now that was probably a 400 MHz or something and Pentiums and Macs are much faster now. But I can\'t imagine any computer being able to compute in real time an impulse response for every separate instrument in an orchestra, perhaps not even each section. EWQLSO will give you that from the start built in to the samples, albeit without the performance niceties of VSL. So as has been the case for a long time, there is no perfect library out there.

Steve Chandler

[Bardstown Audio]

Typically you don\'t need more than one room simulation convolution for classical acoustic instrument mixes.

In pop music mixes engineers typically like using different reverbs on different instruments and vocals as an effect, rather than for room simulation like you would want for acoustic classical instruments. In pop music as an example, people want a particular snare drum sound that is achieved with certain reverb algorithms, and then a particular electric guitar sound effect, vocal effects, etc., that are achieved by using different reverbs that are more for sound effects than actual room simulations.

Without a doubt there will be differing opinions when it comes to acoustic classical music mixes, but from my perspective it doesn\'t make sense or sound natural to use different room simulations on different orchestral instruments in the mix. You don\'t hear strings in one room while hearing woodwinds in another. You probably don\'t need more than one room simulation in a mix with acoustic orchestral instruments. Obviously you would want to assign your room simulation reverb of choice to an auxiliary bus track and and adjust the send levels of your individual instrument tracks for appropriate depth placement of each instrument and sections in the mix.

VSL instruments have all been sample recorded in the same room, so for this reason these instruments sound excellent in a mix using a single quality room simulation. Quality room simulations in Altiverb, Sequoia, and Samplitude are beautifully breath-taking.

Kip McGinnis
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[peter269]

Originally posted by Bardstown Audio:
Quality room simulations in Altiverb, Sequoia, and Samplitude are beautifully breath-taking.

Kip McGinnis
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\") <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Kip, I have both Samplitude and Sequoia. Which impulses in the Room Simulator are you using?

[Nick Batzdorf]

Kip, in theory I agree with you about just needing one reverb. In practice, I like to use two or three for clarity (especially on percussion, and especially on bass drum). One of the ways to get more mileage out of a single reverb is to put delays on the sends, so for example you can give the strings a longer predelay and preserve some of the \"rosin.\"

But I don\'t bother to do that.

Pantonality mentioned Altiverb bringing a dual-processor Mac to its knees. I can run one low-latency stereo-stereo reverb on my Pismo G4 PowerBook (a G3 upgraded with a 500MHz G4), and I can run three stereo-stereo ones on my dual gig G4. Actually, the Altiverbs are only running on one processor. It might be possible to eke out another one in Logic by resorting to trickery and forcing it to use the other processor.

Rather than viewing Altiverb as a hog, I think it\'s amazing that you can run this kind of reverb on a stock G4. The Sony and Yamaha reverbs are what, $5-10K?

[mike harper]

hopefully this \"mir\" will be optimised for hyper threading/multitasking - a year from now things will be much faster( 5-8 ghz 64 bit??)

[David Govett]

Hi Kip. Good point but one of the things missing in sampled orchestras (that is not as needed for alot of pop and country) until this VSL system and the QLSO library come out is a different setting for each section of the orchestra. What has been missing is for example the ability to have the timpani sound like they are behind the orchestra instead of in your face with everything else. Right now, everything is great left to right, but creating the front to back (and ambience in the rear) depth has been very flat for the most part. I think that is what they are trying to address with multiple spaces. Anyway, the results that I have heard so far with QLSO is amazing and worth it. Its more like being in the room with the orchestra than just listening to a recording.
Later
Dave

[Bardstown Audio]

Nick and Dave, very good points, and it is amazing that we are able to achieve high quality room simulations with convolution software such as Altiverb and Room Simulator in Samplitude and Sequoia for so little money compared to expensive hardware reverb boxes.

Peter, are you familiar with the \"high quality full sample rate\" setting in the advanced options settings in Room Simulator in Sequoia and Samplitude? Room Simulator defaults to a lower quality setting in the advanced options, so you have to physically select this higher quality setting. In general, I have found the simulated acoustic impulses that come with Altiverb to be better quality impulses than many of the impulses that come bundled with Samplitude and Sequoia, though there are some nice performance hall and studio room impulses with Samplitude and Sequoia.

Several weeks ago I took one of Ernest Cholakis\'s acoustic impulses and did an A/B comparison of it in both Altiverb and Sequoia, and actually thought it sounded a bit better to my ears in Samplitude and Sequoia. I would be interested in hearing comments from others who have done similar comparisons with identical acoustic impulses in both Altiverb and Sequoia/Samplitude. I am glad to have all of these wonderful Room Simulator programs at my disposal.

Kip McGinnis
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[x$$$]

Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:

Pantonality mentioned Altiverb bringing a dual-processor Mac to its knees. I can run one low-latency stereo-stereo reverb on my Pismo G4 PowerBook (a G3 upgraded with a 500MHz G4), and I can run three stereo-stereo ones on my dual gig G4...

Rather than viewing Altiverb as a hog, I think it\'s amazing that you can run this kind of reverb on a stock G4. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">As another user of Altiverb on an upgraded Pismo, I actually think it\'s more amazing that you can run Altiverb AT ALL on an upgraded Pismo - I mean, that\'s not even a stock G4. images/icons/smile.gif

[x$$$]

argggh - double post... images/icons/mad.gif

[Nick Batzdorf]

As another user of Altiverb on an upgraded Pismo, I actually think it\'s more amazing that you can run Altiverb AT ALL on an upgraded Pismo - I mean, that\'s not even a stock G4. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yup, although the Pismo does use the same motherboard all the Macs of that generation were using. That was one of the things I checked before opening my wallet for the upograde - and in fact one of the two factors that made this the only upgrade I\'ve ever found to be worthwhile. Every other time the price was just too close to the cost of a new machine minus the resale value of the old one.

The other factor was that it\'s a PowerBook, which is an auxiliary computer that doesn\'t need to have the power of my main machine. I\'ve upgraded desktop Macs about every two years since the mid-\'80s, but I\'ve only had three PowerBooks.

[Markus S]

WOW! What a thread! images/icons/shocked.gif Just one week-end gone, and things like this happen!!! I really love this forum!
But, remains just one question for me me: Will there be a EWQLSO-restriction??? Will I be able to use it where and when I want, or just for certain films, or films without certain actors, from specific companies, in specific continents?
(see vota)
Markus.

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by Markus S:
WOW! What a thread! images/icons/shocked.gif Just one week-end gone, and things like this happen!!! I really love this forum!
But, remains just one question for me me: Will there be a EWQLSO-restriction??? Will I be able to use it where and when I want, or just for certain films, or films without certain actors, from specific companies, in specific continents?
(see vota)
Markus. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">There are no use restrictions if you purchase a license to use EWQLSO.

Take care,

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www..com (\"http://www..com\")

[dougrogers]

Please remove this double post (why does this happen?)

[RickD]

Originally posted by dougrogers:
Please remove this double post (why does this happen?) <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Doug,
I dunno but I know how to prevent them. Double posts happen when you use the back button on your browser after you post a message. I like using my back button a lot, so sometimes after I post a message, I just quit explorer and restart it.

Rick

[JohnCarter]

QLSO and VSL have their disadvantages and advantages :

-VSL is difficult to mix, but you can create your sound by doing some EQs, and reverb
-I'm not sure if EWQLSO will have one day, real legato or controllable performances samples, because of the hall,you'll need a lot of coffee when editing the stage and ambiance samples (it will be easier with close samples though)

+VSL has performances samples
+EWQLSO has a built-in hall

So the questions : Is it possible to record performance samples in a big hall like EWLQSO hall ? Will it be possible to reach the ewqlso hall quality only by artificial reverb ?
These 2 questions will be hard to solve.

[PaulR]

<
This is better than the movies. Nick, the tortured genius, raging at the slightest criticism - he sends fresh muffins to street urchins in Africa, but he knows - deep inside - that he\'s bad.

Doug, the electric haired promoter, talking a dime to the dozen. Nick\'s mouthpiece, his benefactor and buddy: but count your fingers after you shake his hand.

Herb, the avant-garde filmmaker; stereotyped as the model of Germanic precision, but relentless in his pursuit of artistic perfection. \"How does he do it,\" cries Nick. \"He\'s developing weapons of mass delusion! We must destroy him so that we might all be free to enjoy the right way to sample!\"

Fade to black.


Hahahahhahhaahhhah.........HAhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaa! That's brilliant!

Just a small selling idea. NEVER, EVER, NOT EVEN REMOTELY try and trash or critisize the oposition/other companys products. NEVER! BAD IDEA! Even if you turn out to be right. It makes you look defensive and makes customers feel like w**k**s for buying the oppositions products in the first place. Concentrate on the positive attributes of your own ideas and products. People don't just buy on product information.
Good luck with your new ideas and watch the cash-flow.

So Bruce likes Shakespeare huh?

[hv]

In pop music mixes engineers typically like using different reverbs on different instruments and vocals as an effect, rather than for room simulation like you would want for acoustic classical instruments...

I can add that in jazz/pop recording reverb may be used for effect, but unless you're recording a live ensemble performance, reverb will be just as important for creating realistic and believable productions as they would be in classical mixes. As Kip says, no one wants the piano, horn or drummer to sound like they’re around the corner, down the block, or in a different room from the singer! Reverb is often used as the acoustic glue to pull separately recorded tracks into the same space.

So my first reaction to the VSL MIR announcement was utter delight. What could be more natural than for an accomplished and highly regarded sample house to add samples of the best acoustic spaces in the world to it’s repertoire? Till I got to this part:


POSTED BY HERB TUCMANDL, PRESIDENT VSL, ON THE VSL WEB SITE
... Due to the close association between the library and the reverb engine, the typical directional characteristics of each instrument are taken into consideration when formulating the \"correct\" sets of impulse responses. For instance, the horns, which are directed to the rear, can be assigned different spatial aspects than the frontally blaring trumpets.


Oh, no! Are these impulses going to be proprietary? Will they work with GigaPulse/GS3? Will MIR only work with VSL samples? Will I be able to use MIR to put my singer into the same room with a VSL instrument? Maybe I’ll have to wait for someone like Chicken Systems to add impulse conversions to it’s bag of tricks. Hopefully, I’m just reading too much into it.

But I can see why some folks might get their noses out of joint about this:


POSTED BY HERB TUCMANDL, PRESIDENT VSL, ON THE VSL WEB SITE
...Plus, each time more than one note is played, the sound of that reverb is duplicated over and over again. Play three notes, the result is the cumulative, layered sound of three halls!

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Unless it refers to wet recordings or samples made with varying mic positions or worse, different rooms. My experience is that if you don’t move your mics (or the furniture, fixtures, walls, curtains, fellow musicians, humidity, etc.), you can record 3 performers one at a time or all at once and get the same sounding room in the mix. The hard part is not changing anything. Wet samples are certainly harder to do right, but if you can use them to create realistic results, the sampler has succeeded.

Although I don’t buy that part of VSL’s reasoning, I just can’t use wet samples in my application. Unless I could get impulses that matched the wet recording conditions... hint, hint.

In spite of my few nits, I’m thrilled by the announcement. It raises the bar. Where the UI of a single instance of GigaPulse is spec’d to support 18 positions, MIR will apparently supply 200 if I understand it correctly. With a 7-mic array, presumably positioned somewhere in front of the stage. 1,400 impulses per space? Wow. Maybe even more. Postulate, if you will, repositioning the mic-array and catching impulses from every seat in the house. I can see it now. Folks previewing prospective seats from home before buying season tickets. Exciting times, indeed.


Howard

[leogardini]

Why are you re-discussing this one year old thread???

[Per Lichtman]

So the questions : Is it possible to record performance samples in a big hall like EWLQSO hall ? Will it be possible to reach the ewqlso hall quality only by artificial reverb ?
These 2 questions will be hard to solve.

I think these are the various questions waiting to be addressed by EWQL and VSL "next year" according to their posts on another thread. It will be interesting to see the results.

[hv]

Why are you re-discussing this one year old thread???

Oops. But it looks like that as of June (2004) something was suposed to be on deck for this summer...

http://vsl.co.at/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3171&highlight=mir


Howard

[christian marin]

yeah, *first raw demos* or lets call it a proof of concept ... some CPU-power left anyone ;-)
christian

[Nick Batzdorf]

As Kip says, no one wants the piano, horn or drummer to sound like theyÕre around the corner, down the block, or in a different room from the singer! Reverb is often used as the acoustic glue to pull separately recorded tracks into the same space.


The last sentence is true, and I don't know the context in which Kip said that. But as an isolated statement, I have to say that it's rare for the singer to be run through the same reverb as the drums, and normal for the drums to have at least two different reverb programs (snare and overheads, often another one for the BD).

[hv]

I'm still getting up to speed on convolution reverbs but it looks like there's 2 classes of IRs around for the ones out there. Effect and space IRs. It strikes me that the effect IRs, created by recording impulses run though popular and expensive hardware boxes, would be useful for altering direct signals, like altering the attack, adding coloration, changing the direct sound decay... not unlike how compressors and other processors are used. Seems like you can IR just about anything from the mic on down. If you like that kind of thing. Believe it or not, there are actually a few singers out there that don't... they actually like the sound of their real voices. It seems like classical listeners, the classic jazz crowd, and the growing acoustic-pop audiences feel the same way about musical instruments.

The other class of IRs seem more geared towards recreating real spaces and specific concert halls. I've always used hardware units to do this but you need a lot of units, inputs, and/or passes if you want to realistically position each sound source. I used to applying a dash to the mix, which really helps pull things together. But that always seems like a fuzzy compromise compared to a live recording in a real space. I'm thinking in terms of using a convolution reverb with maybe multiple instances applied to each source. Since my goal is clarity of positioning, I think I'd want to use impulses gathered from a fixed location array in the same space with the only variable being source positioning.

Howard

[griels]

But I can see why some folks might get their noses out of joint about this:

"POSTED BY HERB TUCMANDL, PRESIDENT VSL, ON THE VSL WEB SITE
...Plus, each time more than one note is played, the sound of that reverb is duplicated over and over again. Play three notes, the result is the cumulative, layered sound of three halls!"

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Unless it refers to wet recordings or samples made with varying mic positions or worse, different rooms. My experience is that if you don’t move your mics (or the furniture, fixtures, walls, curtains, fellow musicians, humidity, etc.), you can record 3 performers one at a time or all at once and get the same sounding room in the mix. The hard part is not changing anything. Wet samples are certainly harder to do right, but if you can use them to create realistic results, the sampler has succeeded.


I don't know, but I've certain heard some very soggy-sounding QLSO Gold mixes here, and this was the first thought that popped in to my mind... It sounds (to an admittedly untrained listener) like you are listening to several times the hall ambience you should hear. In fact, I'm dubious if a purely additive model of hall ambience is the right approach at all. There are all sorts of interactions between the sound waves in a hall which samples might well struggle to replicate. Things cancel, you get standing waves, etc etc. The hall, the fixtures and fittings, have their own resonant frequencies, and nonlinear responses to sounds. You could go on forever trying to refine the model. The walls will shake, but only so much. The horns will resonate with the sounds of the strings if they are not playing notes, but if they are playing a dischord, much less so. Sounds travel in different directions, reinforcing or cancelling one another. And so on. I doubt you could model many of these things with sampled ambience. Although, some of them will have neglibile impact on the sound.

Whether convolution can model these things any better is unclear, but I'm pretty sure that you can do better than adding samples of ambience together. It's clear to me that one impulse reverb will not do the job. That will very probably be worse than sampled ambience. An instrument near the corner of the room sounds very different to one near the middle of a wall. You at least need multiple impulse responses to represent the positioning of instruments. So I think MIR represents, at the very least, a theoretical challenge to sampled ambience, and a giant step forward for convolution.

[hv]

I don't know, but I've certain heard some very soggy-sounding QLSO Gold mixes here, and this was the first thought that popped in to my mind... It sounds (to an admittedly untrained listener) like you are listening to several times the hall ambience you should hear.

I shy away from using wet samples and tracks myself because of the pitfalls and limitations. I've always found it too easy to smear even a well recorded space just by panning an instrument to the wrong location in the mix. But I've heard a lot QLSO mixes here that sound wonderfully natural... I suspect because of care in instrument panning. Even when close-mic'ing a live performance to multitrack, I find I get more natural ambience if I scetch out on-stage positioning and try to match it in the mix panning.

Howard

[Nick Batzdorf]

I don't think that's the reason for any sogginess you hear. Effectively, all you're doing with EWQLSO is summing reverb returns rather than reverb sends; the reverb level for each instrument is determined by how loud it is when it's recorded, so that works fine.

As far as I can see, you're missing the interaction between instruments in the air with married ambience or with artificial reverb (convolution or otherwise). The only way to simulate that would be to do what Dietz from VSL posted about a couple of months ago, which is to run the samples through a speaker and stick up a couple of mics. Barring that, you have to settle for electronic combining - which sounds fine to me, by the way.

So if you're hearing sogginess in EWQLSO, it's a matter of the reverb level and/or length not being to your taste - and one can adjust that in Kompakt/Konakt pretty easily. I personally like a lot of reverb on orchestral mixes. it doesn't sound right to me when they're too dry.

[hv]

As far as I can see, you're missing the interaction between instruments in the air with married ambience or with artificial reverb (convolution or otherwise). The only way to simulate that would be to do what Dietz from VSL posted about a couple of months ago, which is to run the samples through a speaker and stick up a couple of mics.

Wonder if one could IR that setup get indistinguishable results.

Howard

[Nick Phoenix]

We will capture the impulses of the EWQLSO hall this summer. I have some discussed some ideas about how to do a better job of this, than what is currently available. High sample rates helps, for one thing. But an impulse can never replace all of the missing resonances and frequencies and energies that close micing fails to capture. So, if you missed some of the sound of the instrument to begin with, it is impossible to replace this. It's gone forever.

[hv]

Thanks, Nick. That'll certainly expand the library pallete for folks like myself. Any clues as to which convolution software you might be leaning towards?

Howard