any mocker uppers out there?

[J. Whaley]

I\'m just curious from some of you people who do Film score mockups. How much time is usually involved? I\'m working on some orch. mock ups for a guy right now. He wants me to play a few parts and then he\'s adding some live instruments on top. The time he wants me to spend on it doesn\'t seem like enough to do a good job. If I do it in the time I have available, it sounds aweful, if I make it sound good, it takes too much time! Ahhh. So I\'m curious how much time you guys usually spend on a cue. Thanks!

[greatzed]

I scored a 4 minute cue from the silent movie called Metropolis for my band project about 2 years ago. It took me about 2 and a half weeks to finish it all up the way I wanted it! It was only my 2nd project, though, so that\'s why it took a long time.

[Veron]

I wonder how people capture the chords
with there ears . Like a chord played with
strings or choir etc.
There`s no hope for people who don`t have perfect pitch .
I was trying to mock up a few score`s in Crimson Tide , but failed .
I tried a few scores in it and I could get the
theme ( melodies ) by sitting with my keyboard for a long time
trying to find the right note . Pushing C ,thats not it , pushing G,
thats not it .......But when trying to get the chord parts , I thought its impossible .
(For example the Choir inTr.2 or
the String blocks in Tr.1 that starts from about
3:37 or the brass chords before this and theres alot more )

If you don`t have perfect pitch and
get the chords or get the theme (melody)
by just hearing it once , how did you train your ears ? Are there any training method`s ?

Thanks in advance .


Veron

[johnkay]

Hi, Veron:

Perfect pitch is not necessary to transcribe music by ear. Some have said that having perfect pitch is, in fact, a curse.

Rather, you can develop your ear with intervallic training methods that will allow you to immediately recognize the intervals between notes---that is: half steps, hole steps, thirds, fourths, fifths, etc., and copy down what you hear in a relative way without knowing the exact pitch. Later, you can determine a starting note by sitting down at a piano, for instance, and finding that note. This training will also teach you to recognize most common chords and help figure out the more complicated ones.

There are ear training methods with CDs for self study that can be purchased at music stores. However, you may find it more effective to hire a music teacher who will give lessons and homework. That\'s because a teacher can vary the lesson plan to help you master the areas that give you the most trouble---a CD can\'t. Oh, and you can\'t cheat on a teacher, like you can with a CD images/icons/wink.gif

Also ask about sight singing lessons. This teaches you to hear and sing right from sheet music while being given nothing more than a starting pitch.

Basic training requires a couple of months for each at one lesson per week. Advanced study can take an additional year, or longer. Alot depends on your ability, but you can learn how to do it.

It helps if you know how to play an instrument---piano, especially. So consider some basic piano lessons if you are weak in that area.

Developing both of these skills will eventually enable you to compose with just pencil, paper and your brain. And that comes in handy when inspiration strikes when you are miles away from your computer.

John

[johnkay]

Hi, J. Whaley:

When I first got started---10 months back---it was taking me about 40-60 minutes per rendered track minute. So a three minute tune with 20 tracks took between 40-60 hours. I don\'t know if that\'s fast or slow in comparison to others---and I\'m still a novice compared to many on this forum.

That time is dropping as I develop more useful articulations and macros to suit the way I write. So if stick with the sample library articulations---and for the most part I\'m don\'t as most of the demos you will hear here have substantially altered articulations---that time drops to 20-30 minutes. Most of the stuff is programmed, some is played. I am equally clumsy at both so, for me, there is no time advantage in either approach.

Would like to hear some metrics from the pros.

John

[Leon Willett]

Thomas_J was saying in another thread that 2 or 3 minutes of fully orchestrated music in one day was normal for a good composer.

I almost fainted when I heard that! I spent 2 weeks writing and 2 days mocking up the last piece I posted here, and it was just over one minute!

Crazy!

[johnkay]

Hi, Leon:

Yeah, I think one can get to that level of proficiency. It won\'t happen overnight. Takes some talent, devotion and a lot of woodshedding.

Did he mention how much time was invested and devoted prior to getting to that level?

Gotta keep it all in perspective.

John

[johnkay]

Originally posted by johnkay:
hole steps<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Uh, meant to say \"whole\" steps.

Hole steps must be those unplayed notes in a whole tone scale images/icons/wink.gif

John

[Alexcremers]

Originally posted by Leon Willett:
Thomas_J was saying in another thread that 2 or 3 minutes of fully orchestrated music in one day was normal for a good composer.

I almost fainted when I heard that! I spent 2 weeks writing and 2 days mocking up the last piece I posted here, and it was just over one minute!

Crazy! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">John Williams writes 2 minutes of music a day and it is my understanding that he doesn\'t fully orchestrate.


------------
Alex Cremers

[KingIdiot]

There\'s an on going joke in #midi-mockup, that Thomas can compose/mockup orchestral music faster than real time images/icons/smile.gif

ex.

a full hour long score takes him a half hour images/icons/wink.gif hehehe

[J. Whaley]

Okay, so let me be more specific. I think it\'s easier to do a mock up of something I\'ve written. I know where it\'s going. I know what it should sound like. But my current project is not something I\'ve written, I\'m working for someone else. SO. For example, let\'s say John Williams were to hire a young whipper snapper like Thomas J to do an Orch mock-up for him. he gives Thomas (or some other young whipper) a full score with let\'s say 25-30 parts on it (we\'re talking star wars). Thomas sits down with no clue how it goes, no tempo map yet created, and is charged with the task of creating a mock up realistic enough that the director can come in and cut the score to pieces..... how long should that mock up take? (we\'ll say it\'s about 65 pages of score - 5 min. of music - 150 measures).

J -

[J. Whaley]

The real reason for this post: I mostly do pop stuff and I\'m pretty good at it (I think - I stay busy). But this one particular client keeps calling me to do these little mockups for him. It pays really well (I think) but I can\'t decide if it\'s worth the stress..... I don\'t have much hair left, no reason to force the rest out right?

J-

[mattzen]

If you\'re composing, from my perspective, you should be doing AT LEAST 3 min a day. I feel anywhere from 3-10 is necessary to stay on the time schedules we are given. Of course it depends on the complexity of the music and how tightly the scene is scored what the actual amount is.

If you are orchestrating OR mocking up, I think you should be doing at least as much per day. Directors and producers want music in insane time frames these days. Music is one of the last links in the post-prod chain and time is always stolen from the music schedule. Unfortunately, we find ourselves writing to unlocked cuts more frequently just to get a head start on a compressed schedule. I don\'t think they fully understand what it takes but, nontheless, they end up giving us composers less and less time!

In the song world, you definitely seem to get more time. A week for a track is reasonable, however, they might want something in 3 days or so. Either way, I see it as a very comfortable amount of time. Of course, the more you do it, the better and faster you get. I say, keep doing it!! Good luck!

[Veron]

Mr.johnkay


Thanks for your reply .

I`ll go search for a book with a CD .
I wish it isn`t too late to do this .

And about piano . I don`t know about piano but
I can play the keyboard a little . ( of course both hands at
once )

>Developing both of these skills will eventually enable you >to compose with just pencil, paper and your brain. And >that comes in handy when inspiration strikes when you >are miles away from your computer.
I really want to get this skill . It really helps
when your away from your computer but
it helps when your computers not turned on too.
I lost alot really..... It looks like its going to take
one month.... I`ll see how close I can get to the
goal .

And also , if someone has any advice ,
I would like to hear it images/icons/smile.gif

Thankyou again !


Veron

[lex]

I would just add, that it is very important what are you writing....

At least for me, there is really huge difference if I\'m doing a fast action cue or a slow emotional piece, does the cue revolves around a theme or not, etc etc etc...

Writing 3 minutes of full blast action cue at 140-170BPM is not the same as writing a string piece at 70BPM...

From the tehnical point of view, not mental...

Alex

[David Govett]

To do that kind of work in a timely manner, you would really have to know your theory and orchestration. (and some keyboard chops and sight reading ability would help) The transposition of the various instruments will be a major stumbling block to many of us. Most of us can read and play treble and bass clef in C instruments like piano, strings and flutes & oboes etc, but the tenor clef of the viola and the perfect fifth offset of the french horns can really bring things to a crawl. It those parts cause you much grief, you might want to use the mouse to put them in and transpose appropriately and then you can go back and play the parts in more musically with a keyboard. That is a tough gig to say the least.
I can do orignal MIDI scores and even existing mockups where I have the score AND the CD audio pretty quick but without the audio, I would probably not be much faster either.
Good luck
Dave

[J. Whaley]

Thanks guys for the input. I think I\'ve confused the situation though. I\'m not writing anything. It\'s actually a musical and everything is ALREADY written. I just have to sit here and read off a tiny hand written score and play everything in, and try to make music of it. I do know it takes about 20-30 min./part to play the stuff in. I don\'t think that\'s too bad. But the frustration is in the articulations. I can play it no problem, but it sounds aweful because its not using the best sets of samples for each note. But to go through and make it all sound great, it takes FOREVER. Which I don\'t have forever. (because I really am on a tight timeline). I don\'t have a choice to do or not do the project. I\'ve already said I will and it\'s going to pay a lot of rent for me, so I\'m really happy. It just seems really intense, and I just wanted to see how long other people take. In other words, I\'m trying to figure out my suck factor! Ha! but from what it seems to be on here, most people take a quite some time to do a legit mock-up. Oh well.


Another subject: Within VSL - is the performance set suppose to be the most playable? One of my frustrations with GOS is that I have to work pretty hard to get all the responses I want from the keys. When I just used my JV 1080 Orch. board the programming seemed really intuitive. It seemed like i played harder and the strings sounded louder and better. I needed a quick attack, I just found a patch with a quick attack. I need slow, I just pulled up slow. I needed Pizz... I pulled up pizz. With GOS, I\'m always having to layer stuff, and it takes a ton of time (for me). Is VSL suppose to be more intuitive? Or do Thomas J and these \"faster then real time\" people have all these layers already set up? I jsut feel so helpless sometimes! Thanks images/icons/smile.gif

[Jared Hudson]

Man, it\'s funny this subject came up. Stupid me...I procrastinate a lot (in college too), but also due to many other factors at the moment. I have to write 30+ minutes of music for a student film, and finish a trailer score for Siggraph 2003 convention in San Diego in a week! All this while I work at Walmart during the day. Unfortunately, it won\'t be the most \"compositionally\" best stuff I\'ve written, but at least the movie doesn\'t require super huge scores...and plus....it\'s a freaking student film. Ha! Depending on the type of scene, and the style of music....I can probably write about 3 minutes of music a day...for this job. No extremely complex chord progressions or anything, just a good sound.

Normally it\'s not by my code to \"half-*** \" stuff, but I told my friend I\'d get this done. He\'s got a theater rented out in his hometown, and he expects around 200-300 people. (he has a lot of support in his town). He\'s also going to film school in L.A. on the Universal Studios lot, so I want to pull through just in case he becomes the next James Cameron or something, and I need a job!

Remember, stay close and make friends with anybody you think even remotely might get into the industry, you\'ll be glad you did.

Two scenes I wrote for in one day (more like 4 hours). Anyone\'s comments on \"sound\" vs. \"composition\" are welcome. Sorry for the slight snag in this thread. images/icons/tongue.gif

Opening Credits: www.bsu.edu/web/jlhudson/ira/Jared%20Hudson%20-%20Ira%20Opening.mp3 (\"http://www.bsu.edu/web/jlhudson/ira/Jared%20Hudson%20-%20Ira%20Opening.mp3\")
Walking Scene: www.bsu.edu/web/jlhudson/ira/Jared%20Hudson%20-%20Drifting.mp3 (\"http://www.bsu.edu/web/jlhudson/ira/Jared%20Hudson%20-%20Drifting.mp3\")

Jared Hudson images/icons/grin.gif

P.S. For anyone who cares or if it matters at all, I\'ve always prefered notators rather than piano roll.

[johnkay]

Originally posted by J. Whaley:
a full score with let\'s say 25-30 parts on it (we\'re talking star wars)......(we\'ll say it\'s about 65 pages of score - 5 min. of music - 150 measures).
J - <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">J:

You didn\'t say how the score is prepared. If it\'s penned, then the first step is to get it sequenced. Some will play the parts in, others might program.

So, for example, let\'s just evaluate those two alternatives. Assume the score is 60% playable, that is, not all parts are sounding at once. That means there are 30 parts averaging 90 playing measures each. If those parts were just played perfectly once, in realtime, back to back without pause and recorded, that would take 90 minutes to do so. If that same thing were programmed at a rate of, say, 1 measure per 20 seconds, it would take 15 hours! Sorry to reduce it to piece work, but at this stage, that\'s all it is.

Sounds like you already have experience in another genre. How long does it take you to render one final instrument track. This piece has 30, so multiply that answer by 30. Then fudge the time a little longer for your experience level. Add these to the score entry time from above. Then factor in a conference with the composer as it will be unlikely he/she will relinquish all creative control to you, the orchestrator. Or perhaps there are problems with the composition that need to be dealt with.

Review the score before quoting the job. Take an hour to do that, play the thing, develop questions for the composer to get a feel where the piece is going. Talk to the composer. Add that time to your bid.

You can use and extend this method to determine how long you will take, not necessarily how long *it* should take. From that you can work up a price and schedule and float it by the client. Besides the client already sounds happy with your work and may tolerate some waffling on your part.

It doesn\'t sound like this job is time critical, so perhaps there is time to prepare a well thought out response to your client.

Be willing to lose a few before learning how to win a few. Be daring. Write it off as a learning experience. Remember, it\'s better to find out whether you\'re competetive at the quoting stage than after you get the job. Go for it!

John

[johnkay]

Originally posted by J. Whaley:
I\'m trying to figure out my suck factor!
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Definition of suck factor: The client doesn\'t like what\'s been done in the time that it was done and for the amount of money that it was done.

Definition of success: Cashing bankable checks from satisfied clients.

Forget about the 2-3 minute per day crowd. At their level they worry if they suck, too. And remember, at a given performance level we all suck. Some just suck less.

Having synth (ADSR) articulations and layers figured out---and in some cases editing waves---in advance is the way to go. If you orchestrate for many different styles of music you will spend an inordinate amount of time setting up your libraries for each style. Alternatively, choose and work mostly within one genre and after a while your libraries become fine-tuned and only require minor tweaks, thereby leaving more time for writing. That\'s how some achieve such high throughput.

So, look at it this way. After a lot of sweat on this project the next one, in the same vein, will get easier and the next easier. Any project that doesn\'t kill you adds to your toolkit.

John

[KingIdiot]

How to get the best mock-ups-


By KI,


Spend a day or two going through the archives of NS doign both searches, and jsut scrolling back through, and then copy/paste important threads, and learn from them.


This forum has by far the most useful amount of information regarding mockups and such anywhere on the net, as far as I\'m concerned. A FAQ would be awesome, but I also feel it may be much better for them to stay in archived posts. For the people who are willing to learn as much as possible by going through the threads. Yes it will take a loooong time, but ultimately I believe you\'ll get so much more out of the threads instead of a generalized FAQ. It would also seem to belittle the history this community as a whole has had.

anyway, abou tfilm score mockups.

Jsut depends on your skillsets, and the cue. As well as your arsenal of sounds AND your approach.

each person has their own approach and better skillsets. I\'m a terrible orchestrator, so it would take me a few years images/icons/smile.gif I\'ll mix the hell out of it tho images/icons/wink.gif