Getting "the sound".....

[Scott Cairns]

Hi all, recently midphase started a great thread on Sampled Orchestra Tricks (\"http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=005227\") along those lines I was wondering if people could share any knowledge that leads to getting a great sound, in terms of production. (In other words, in the mixing and mastering of a piece as opposed to the orchestration.)

Alternately, perhaps you have a link to a famous composer talking about his or her \"sound\" and how they go about getting it. On that note, if anyone know how Bill Brown achieves his production I would LOVE to hear it! (I know he employs more and more live players now, but I think there is more to his sound quality than that.)

I know this is a fairly broad way to approach a complex topic, but for example I do hear of suggestions like rolling off frequencies between 200 and 400 hz to clean up the \"mud\" in the mix - a list of tips like these would be very helpful.

Edit: [It looks like midphase has inspired us as Rob Elliot has started another thread on Orchestral arranging devices images/icons/smile.gif ]
Regards, Scott.

[thesoundsmith]

There are some highly skilled recording engineers that frequent this forum, so this could get to be a long thread.

With my limited skills, here\'s what I would lay out as some ground rules, in no particular order:

First, and above all: YOU CAN\'T POLISH A TURD! Start with tracks that are performed to the best of the player\'s ability. Record them as hot as is safe, to achieve maximum dynamic range later.

Mix at low volume levels most of the time. I piece that sounds great soft will seldom sound bad loud.

Use effects and EQ as little as possible (this applies to \'natural\' sounding mixes) I like to put short, early reflections on dry instruments, then apply a final \'room\' reverb only at the final stage (minus any instruments you want dry.)

Build mixes a section at a time initially - strings to a submix, brass (or separate bones/tpts/horns if you have the sub channels) etc. then blend into a final.

Pan- if the track has a room sound, I run it stereo, then use left-right levels rather than pan pot to get left/right positioning, and the add the reverb to achieve front-to-back position. Dry, \'single-note-instrument\' tracks work generally fine as mono - less resources, better control.

There is a sweet spot that most mixes can have. It is difficult to find at first, but gets easier with experience. I call it the \'float,\' a place where each part sits like a pearl, to be savored as both a part of the mix and as itself.

Save often when using automation. As you approach \'the float\', save to several differnt filenames, so you can recall something a few steps back when that great idea that required changing eight or ten settings fails to work.

The studio space is a SYSTEM. Everything is designed to connect to everything else, and this can lead to complex configurations. Don\'t be afraid to try something \'wierd\', but be alert for feedback chains in the system.

Just a start. Good luck, and keep your ears open. They are the final arbiter of what works. If it sounds good, it IS good, but a year from now, it may not sound as good. That\'s because you have become more attuned to the possibilities, not because it was bad then.

Dasher

[J. Whaley]

Originally posted by thesoundsmith:

First, and above all: YOU CAN\'T POLISH A TURD! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That\'s not completely true. Reality is you can polish a turd all day long. At the end of the day you still have Crap - But it\'s shiney!

[Leon Willett]

Presumably EWQLSO will give you \"the sound\" pretty effortlessly. Now it\'s just up to you to write something good! images/icons/wink.gif

[KingIdiot]

There are too many sounds out there images/icons/smile.gif

I did a stalling like cue that I wanted to sound like the 50\'s so I mono\'d it up, used some saturation plugs, and went to town.

Othertimes I want a \"studio room\" sound so I\'ll use some smaller room reverbs, and play with the early reflections, but keep the decay down.

Sometimes I want it to be lush and ambient and wetter than a rainy day in Seattle. Totally unrealistic, I use multible verbs then.

It all depends on the cue, its use, AND the individual person. Each one of us hears something slightly different in terms of \"mix\"

QLSO\'s sound is gorgeous.

[Rob Elliott]

Originally posted by J. Whaley:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by thesoundsmith:

First, and above all: YOU CAN\'T POLISH A TURD! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That\'s not completely true. Reality is you can polish a turd all day long. At the end of the day you still have Crap - But it\'s shiney! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Very funny guys. I have also heard of it as \"it\'s like putting whipped cream on a turd...\"

One thing I have done is to have an illustration of a orchestral seating chart right in front of me on the wall. I am constantly looking at it for reference (not to say ya can\'t break those rules or try something different but it reminds me of the general placement of the sections.) The trick is to see this 2-D picture in 3-D and get THAT sound (depth, width and height).

Once that is obtained, then I try to get \'some air\' around these sampled sections (for me that is the toughest.) I really think that is as much arranging and writing as mixing.

Rob

[David Govett]

This is where QLSO shines big time.
Dave

[JonFairhurst]

Originally posted by Rob Elliott:
Very funny guys. I have also heard of it as \"it\'s like putting whipped cream on a turd...\"<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That\'s kind of like the butt-hair soup joke...

How many butt hairs does it take to make butt-hair soup?

Just one.

I guess the audio corrolary is that one bad track can ruin a whole mix.

Soup anyone?

[J. Whaley]

Okay, that made me laugh!

[Joanne Babunovic]

Hi Scott..good topic.

Rob, what do you mean about putting air inbetween the instruments.

[Scott Cairns]

Thanks Dasher for all your tips.


Presumably EWQLSO will give you \"the sound\" pretty effortlessly. Now it\'s just up to you to write something good! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'m sure EWQLSO will sound good but what if you are using other lib\'s? Live players? Or like Bill Brown, a Metamorphosis style loop under an orchestral arrangement? What if your piece is going to be for TV?

I was thinking more in specifics in relation to mixdown and mastering techniques.


what do you mean about putting air in between the instruments.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi Joanne, my interpretation of that would be the use of reverb to create early reflections for the instruments. For example, the Sam lib\'s already have ambience (or air) in the samples so your reverb setting really doesnt require early reflections. Something like GOS that is a dry lib can be well served by having the early reflections build up the sound.

On that note, I tried a great trick that I read about in the Jeremy Soule interview. I brought in a stereo Sam horn sample and split the left and right side onto two tracks. I popped the right hand sample where it should be on the sound stage over to the right. The left hand sample I washed in reverb and sent it over to the left.

The end result is that the horn sound originates from the right speaker (or right side of the hall) and the decay dies out on the left. This is a similiar effect to hearing real horns in a hall. The horn track now sounds a lot cleaner and clearer. More \"real\" somehow.

Oh, and using a predelay setting is generally effective for Brass.

Regards, Scott.

[fitch]

Originally posted by Joanne Babunovic:
Hi Scott..good topic.

Rob, what do you mean about putting air inbetween the instruments. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">surely he doesn\'t mean the trombonists start farting again images/icons/grin.gif


sorry..couldn\'t resist that one.. have sit in too many smelly session rooms to let that pass images/icons/grin.gif

[Scott Cairns]

I dont know.... Polishing turds... Trombonists farting... can a guy get any real help around here? images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/smile.gif


Hey Fitch, I noticed you are a fellow MFTM student, hows your course going?

Scott.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Scott Cairns:

[QUOTE] Or like Bill Brown, a Metamorphosis style loop under an orchestral arrangement? What if your piece is going to be for TV?
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Dont forget Bill Brown does use a bloody expensive Lexicon reverb.

Ed

[Simon Ravn]

Scott: Hey - your horns \"should\" be to the left - not right... images/icons/wink.gif

[panzerD]

Originally posted by Scott Cairns:

Hey Fitch, I noticed you are a fellow MFTM student, hows your course going?

Scott. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">What is MFTM?

[PeterRoos]

Originally posted by panzerD:
What is MFTM? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I believe it is www.musicforthemedia.com (\"http://www.musicforthemedia.com\")

[Scott Cairns]

Scott: Hey - your horns \"should\" be to the left - not right...
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Really? Dam!! images/icons/mad.gif

Simon, I have two graphics of seating charts here, cant remember where I downloaded them from, one has French Horns behind the violas and basses (kind of rear right) and another image called new seating chart has them dead center behind the clarinets and bassoons.

Does anyone have a reliable seating chart? Preferably a modern configuration?

...Actually, I just found a cool seating chart animation done in Flash. It shows the changes of instrument placement from the baroque period right up to modern day; http://www.dsokids.com/seatingChart/ (\"http://www.dsokids.com/seatingChart/\") Simon is quite right, in the classical and modern setting the French Horns ARE on the left. (Not that I ever doubted his expertise!!) I guess I\'ll throw my seating chart images out.

[Scott Cairns]

mftm unit 8 over here.. well, i would be if i had time to start it


i\'m kinda hoping the work will quieten down over the summer..

great course.. fantastic tutor.. nothing bad to say about it.

how about you?
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hey Fitch, it sounds like you are almost finished. Well done! I was about to start unit two when I got approached by the college to assist in writing content for the next course that is based around orchestration and technology. Obviously I was helping with the technology side of things!! Otherwise I wouldnt be here asking orchestration questions all the time. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Cheers, Scott.

[fitch]

hi scott..

mftm unit 8 over here.. well, i would be if i had time to start it images/icons/grin.gif


i\'m kinda hoping the work will quieten down over the summer..

great course.. fantastic tutor.. nothing bad to say about it.

how about you?

[Anders00]

Great stuff! Let\'s keep this thread going!

Anyone else know more about Bill Brown\'s techniques?

-M