Are Breath Controllers Really Needed?

[Joanne Babunovic]

Listening to some of the nice sax,clarinet, and flute samples, wondering if wind controllers add that much value to increasing realism?

Thanks,

[Alan Russell]

Joanne,

I don\'t use any breath controllers or wind controllers..It\'s all fingers..

Now once a score is delivered you can always go back and turn the Mod wheel or bender when need be.

Alan Russell

[lex]

Me neither...it\'s all mouse, keyboard and knobs on my AN1x images/icons/grin.gif

Alex

[A_Sapp]

I used to use a breath controller quite a lot for woodwind solos. They seem to bring some life to the solo tracks. Actually, its impossible for me to be as expressive with a foot expression pedal than a breath controller.

[Nick Batzdorf]

It\'s really a matter of preference. I like the breath controller a whole lot, and I like the EWI even more. But not for everything, and so far my EWi is practically hardwired to a Yamaha VL1 synthesizer.

Breath controllers are like every other one - KAT pads, weighted and unweighted keyboards - they all have their place. If you grew up playing a wind instrument (and my first instrument was recorder), you\'ll like the breath controller. It certainly is a very musical way of adding expression, but it\'s not the only one.

[JonP]

Couldn\'t live without one. They\'re fantastic for woodwind and brass. For strings I tend to use a mixture of footpedal and ribbon controller. The latter helps effect a really good vibrato, although it takes quite a bit of practice and subtle movement to achieve.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by Joanne Babunovic:
Listening to some of the nice sax,clarinet, and flute samples, wondering if wind controllers add that much value to increasing realism?

Thanks, <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi Joanne,

I sometimes work with a wind controller, sometimes not. There\'s a whole routine connected with rigging an instrument to respond to wind control, and some instruments respond better than others. VSL legato performance instruments, for instance, are divine with a wind controller.

However, there can be some zipper noise with extremely fast dynamic changes. This is something that\'s being studied on the programming end, I believe, so hopefully there will be improvement.

Nick\'s comment is right on...if you\'re a wind player, then you will really respond to a wind controller. It\'s a great experience. If you\'re not a wind player, it\'s not a mode of expression you\'ve developed, so you might now find it that intuitive. There\'s a fair amount of coordination involved.

[MikeGraybill]

How difficult are breath controllers to setup? I\'ve been wondering about using it with VSL, but didn\'t even know if it would be a compatible match, and it\'s kinda exciting to hear it is. Could you possibly elaborate on the setup process, Bruce? Not asking for a step-by-step, just a general idea of what one would have to do.

Thanks - mike

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by MichaelAngelo450:
How difficult are breath controllers to setup? I\'ve been wondering about using it with VSL, but didn\'t even know if it would be a compatible match, and it\'s kinda exciting to hear it is. Could you possibly elaborate on the setup process, Bruce? Not asking for a step-by-step, just a general idea of what one would have to do.

Thanks - mike <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">In general, you need to link attenuation to CC2, then reduce the volume response to velocity (Linear/Low) setting.

In multi-velocity samples which have not been wave-normalized and attenuated in the editor, the setup is a bit more difficult and can involve normalization of the waveforms and reprogramming the instruments. Thank Tascam for not caving to idle threats, so that you have the ability to do this. Some folks would like to see your access to waveforms eliminated. Unfortunately, that eliminates lots of flexibility--reprogramming for wind controllers among the rest.

[Isabella Rowlins]

Joanne,

I once bought a breath controller and found out it only works with Yamaha keyboards. The sweet guys in the store were so kind to take it back and gave me a footswitch in return.

So remember to check whether you keyboard can actually use it or not.

Isabella Rowlins

[Joanne Babunovic]

Thanks everyone (except Sharmy images/icons/grin.gif )for sharing experiences and insight. More using bc\'s than would have guessed, but it also seems if you\'ve never played a wind instrument, probably would be statisfied with wheels/pedal.

Nick, what is an ewi?

Welcome to the forum, Isabella.

[Isabella Rowlins]

Thank you very much Joanne.

I have actually been here for a while, but I mostly read the postings in here. The aggresive and somehow personal content of the debates sometimes scares me. So maybe thats why you havent heard me.

Isabella Rowlins

[leaping frog]

The aggresive and somehow personal content of the debates sometimes scares me <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">This is why we\'d probably be better off replacing all male politicians and head of states by women.
Somehow I think the world overall level of agressivity would then go down several notches images/icons/wink.gif

[Isabella Rowlins]

: )

Isabella Rowlins

[Nick Batzdorf]

Joanne asked me what an EWI is.

EWI stands for Electric Wind Instrument. It\'s an instrument developed by Nyle Steiner in the late \'70s/early \'80s, now marketed by Akai. He also makes an EVI, Electric Valve Instrument (trumpet controller). Originally the EWI and EVI were only analog synth controllers, but now their rack unit also puts out MIDI - in fact I don\'t even use the synth that comes with it.

Here are some pictures of funny EWIs (the standard one is white and silver):
http://www.patchmanmusic.com/NAMM1999Akai.html (\"http://www.patchmanmusic.com/NAMM1999Akai.html\")

And actually, here\'s a more informative link. It looks to me like they\'re being blown out, and I actually ordered a spare (the controller, not the synth module/brain - someone else - Windworks Design - is coming out with a better brain).

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=030616164119216249085058631408/g=home/search/d=tp?q=akai+ewi (\"http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=030616164119216249085058631408/g=home/search/d=tp?q=akai+ewi\")

I should add that I love that instrument so much it\'s almost illegal! That plus the VL1 synth: [Italian-style kissing of thumb and forefinger]

[Joanne Babunovic]

Hi Nick,

Thank you for the explanation and links. I remember reading about these a few years ago, but could never find specifics.

Sorry you\'re stuck with the \"midi 101\" questions, but you are using only midi functionality with EWI, but none of the synth sounds especially made for it? i.e., you use the EWI to only control midi (like a keyboard controller) and use sounds from other libaries not specifically made for EWI?

Last question and thanks,

[Up Late]

People can say what they want about how there doing it with just controllers, etc., and that it sounds fine, but they probably have never heard any of the LA ace EWI or EVI session players do their stuff. There is no comparision. The players who use these instruments have fine-tuned their sampled sounds to take advantage of all the expressive capabilities of their wind controllers. I have heard so many mechanical sounding MIDI pieces in so many places over the last few years, it\'s really sad. After working on a piece for a great number of hours, it\'s easy for the composer to become blind to the mechanical, expressionless nature of performing compositions using MIDI controllers and current state-of-the art sample libraries. Compared to the real thing, wind controllers are not good enough either, but it\'s not 2050 yet and this is what we have to work with. I would urge composers to use at least one or two real instruments in conjunction with their MIDI orchestrations. The human ear will focus on these instruments, which will in turn breath a little life into the music. When 2050 does arrive, people will look at the crap that was being produced in our time and just shake their collective heads. What kind of legacy are we leaving? (OK - maybe I\'m a little upset, but...) images/icons/smile.gif

[JonP]

I couldn\'t agree more Up Late. Pure midi demos using sample libraries rarely impress me except as an overall impression. For film composers mocking up for the real thing they\'re great and a godsend, although I still suspect it leads many to neglect the more subtle areas of scoring that samples are incapable of covering.

But when it comes to actual finished pieces its a pretty p*ss poor substitute and the only way to really bring it alive is to use live players as well as samples. How can a demo doctor on a mother keyboard seriously hope to compete with a trained instrumental virtuoso?. The difference stands out a mile.

But breath controllers are a really good way to help samples come alive. A lot of people use it for attenuation and filtering, although I frequently use it to control my Merged instruments I create in Gigastudio. It lets me go from, say, a non vibrato patch to one with some vibrato to a full out passionate sound which really helps give the effect of a crescendo. Assigning it simply to volume is not really a solution.

[KingIdiot]

I think both breath controlelrs and MIDI controller to emulate \"expression\" will be something of the past with all the VSL stuff and new technologies.

I cant really *love* Crassfading layers like I used to anymore after I did that time machine stuff with QLB.

In fact really changed my thoughts on how sampling should be approached completely, as well as opened up some incredibly interesting programming options. (its actually quite amazing how jsut about every day a new idea about cool sampled instrument design pops into my head with the nw stuff around)

However for realtime performance, there\'s more to just simple Xfading/volume/filters. Whatever controller set up is most comfortable to the player is going ot yeild the best results. I suck with breath controllers. However, foot pedals + CC Sliders + Leyboard/Ztar AND instruments programmed in a way that gives me MUCH flexibilty would give me much more flexibility and probably a more realistic \"sound\" (not better performance) than a typically \"basic\" breath controller program (thats *IF* I was good with breath controllers images/icons/smile.gif ) Obviously a well programmed BC instrument would be just as flexibable.

In anycase there\'s more to it than \"breath/wind controllers are better\". Its about the player, the cue, the samples, the instrument being emulated, the programming, the blah blah blah blah... and the general approach of the MIDI-Mockupper

oh and the listener.. images/icons/smile.gif

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by KingIdiot:
I think both breath controlelrs and MIDI controller to emulate \"expression\" will be something of the past with all the VSL stuff and new technologies.

<snip>

In anycase there\'s more to it than \"breath/wind controllers are better\". Its about the player, the cue, the samples, the instrument being emulated, the programming, the blah blah blah blah... and the general approach of the MIDI-Mockupper

oh and the listener.. images/icons/smile.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hehe. Screw the listener. I\'ve never been in this for the listener...I\'m a selfish prick when it comes to that. I do what pleases me, and anyone who cares to listen is free to do it. images/icons/tongue.gif

I am not sure I agree that VSL trumps controllers. It depends on the player. For example:

Nyle Steiner plays Dance of the Comedians (\"http://www.patchmanmusic.com/Steiner_Audio/DanceOfTheComedians.mp3\")


This is Nyle Steiner on decidedly pre-VSL sampled material. I think it\'s his own trumpet playing, sampled, running on an Akai sample engine. He\'s playing that with an EVI, though, there\'s no live trumpet in it. A couple of phrases here or there give it away. But listen to how effective the tonguing syllables are being manipulated, by nothing more than the shape of CC2 information that Nyle is inputting via the shape of his mouth.

This is what can sometimes frustrate me about the VSL approach. On one hand, I absolutely adore it. But it is a highly keyboard-centric approach to mapping the information recorded, the schtick being that every conceivable nuance has been sampled, and mapped in such a creative way that it can come off in realtime.

But where does that leave my creative input? What makes that articulation mine?

Referring back to the Nyle Steiner example, there is a fundamentally more intimate relationship between the player and what\'s coming out of the speaker. Those are Nyle\'s personal articulations. There is a virtuoso aspect to the execution--it is not just programmed or sequenced. It is a musician being captured doing his thing. It is inherently more human on a micro-level, where sequencing is certainly human on the macro-level but highly disconnected from the physical act of musicmaking. It\'s infinitely more abstracted, more a brain exercise, less a brain-body collaboration.

Which isn\'t to say I\'m the least bit negative about VSL, and in fact, VSL maps magnificently to wind control.

I\'m taking a very long route to saying that there are two very different sample users, those which are using the samples mainly as a way to realize their musical compositions, and others who are mainly using them to document their activities as a player...to master them as an actual performance instrument. And of course, a rainbow of variations existing between the two poles. I am some of the former, for instance, but far more of the latter. Ultimately, everything I compose is designed to feature me as a player, and the lead voice is almost always me playing in real time. In that case, I\'m really not mocking anything--I\'m playing the sound in real time, and whatever I play is what the part will be. I generally won\'t change anything about it, save correcting a clam if the overall track is a keeper. In that case, it\'s more like punching in than \"sequencing.\"

But I\'m wandering...

My point is that I think wind control is super important to someone like me, and that it\'s not just some holdover technology waiting to be replaced. On the contrary, it\'s frustrating to see so little energy being focused on facilitating it with both library materials and playback/mapping features. I am a trumpet player, and I spent years developing a professional level of playing in multiple genres. So therefore, a wind controller in my hands enables me to add a very developed layer of expression. It is one more way that the sound creation software can physically \"track\" me as a human musician.

This is not a limited phenomenon. Record a real drummer on a good control pad, and the results are far superior to sequencing the same part--because you\'re capturing art in motion, not an abstraction of art in motion (although the line of abstraction will be drawn somewhere else in the chain). It\'s a fundamentally more complete way of tracking expression.

A keyboard is as dumb as a bucket of hair when it comes to controlling a wind generated sound...IF the person doing the controlling is a wind player. Any person who is actually working with samples, who is a wind player of any note, who is NOT using a wind controller--is insane. Run, don\'t walk, to the music store; learn to program the instruments to respond; and don\'t let another day pass without hooking up. I\'ll only qualify it by saying you\'ll find other ways to be frustrated, either by lack of access to waveforms or programming you need to alter, or by the general lack of sampler engine development around alternate controllers in general. But you won\'t be frustrated by the experience of feeling the instruments respond to you as a player. That is sheer bliss.

There is also some cross pollination that becomes interesting. One type of instrument that works AMAZINGLY well with wind control is the GOS crossfade ensemble material (or anything programmed like it). If you are a player, there is no comparison in the realism of expression you can achieve vs. mod-wheel manipulation of this same instrument. It\'s about more than abstracting expression, it becomes your personal expression.

Blah, blah, blah. Back to work.

[gabriels]

The Yamaha Breath controllers (BC1,BC2,BC3) are meant to work with Yamaha keyboards, it\'s true, but there is a little module you can buy (can\'t remember now who makes it... oh yeah, Midi Solutions) that converts the BC3 and maybe the others, to midi). You\'d have to merge midi streams, but then you\'d have it.... it\'s really an incredibly intuitive and responsive way of adding expression to music. Probably even for people who didn\'t grow up playing a flute or clarinet or whatever.
Gabriel

[JonP]

Originally posted by KingIdiot:
I think both breath controlelrs and MIDI controller to emulate \"expression\" will be something of the past with all the VSL stuff and new technologies.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I couldn\'t disagree more. They let you control the elements you (the composer) want to control in realtime, without some pre-written code or whatever doing the job for you. Live it to that and the human element just disappears. With controllers, you can use a ribbon controller for a touch of vibrato, a breath controller for good X-fading crescendos or to alter the attack and release of a patch, time stretch by tweaking the rotor, the options are endless and only restricted by programming ability, performance ability....oh, and imagination.

[Eric G]

My thoughts: what Bruce said.

I\'m a keyboardist who pretends to be a trombone player. Although my trombone chops aren\'t as good as the keys (which aren\'t what I want them to be, either!), I still go to the breath controller whenever I want something to sound like a wind player. On the other hand, the VSL demo trombone knocked my socks off. Bottom line for me: whatever sounds good and flows with the work.

--Eric

[KingIdiot]

but thats jsut it, I believe that some of the new tech actually allow for a very \"Creative\" input. Its jsut a different approach to manipulation.

Take for example a SFZ sample in time machine. I can speed up or slow down the sample in realtime. allowing me to build the curve of expression that I want.

Its much like learning a new instrument. Its not like playing standard Keyboard+MIDI CC, or using an already developed playing style of a different instrument to manipulate sounds. Its a completely different approach all together.

I\'m not saying VSL for the sake of legato/multisample/repetitions, but more for the amount of samples and variations they are sampling AND using other tools to get the music created. What I mean is that in the future there will be options that will move beyond using \"other\" real world instrument\'s playing styles to actually \"play\" these things in realtime. To many peopel this may seem \"mechanical\", but its no different than learning to play another instrument IMO. You learn it and from there you express with it. Just like electronic artists do in realtime with synths.

Of course everyone has their preference as to what works best for them. I just think that its possible that alot of the \"standard\" approach could be left in the dust in terms of quality, if people learn to approach \"playing\" from a different angle.

and also...this is with samples.... once physical modeling comes around.... images/icons/smile.gif We\'ll all have to learn different controllers if we want to do all instruments ourselves.... (might as well get real instruments...)

oh and dont get me wrong. I do think BC is a great tool. I actually have a sample playback design idea that in some parts would be taylor made for BC/Wind Control. The idea is already far more advanced than standard playback ideas, but I want to think it out more to see how much further it can go.

[JonP]

Originally posted by KingIdiot:


Take for example a SFZ sample in time machine. I can speed up or slow down the sample in realtime. allowing me to build the curve of expression that I want.

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">What do you use to maipulate the sample in realtime?. Surely some sort of external controller?. I mean, a mouse isn\'t a particularly pleasant way to tweak in realtime - well, not for me and the threat of RSI. I use Melodyne for this purpose and would love the same flexibility in realtime, but I can\'t imagine having accurate and fluid control over such a feature without it being hardware based, like a breath controller.

I get what your saying ( I think!) and am also excited about moving beyond the midi age into a world that falls outside of the boundaries of 127 steps and conventional programming, but I\'d still need hardware control for it to be truly satisfying.

[KingIdiot]

Of course I\'m using a controller for realtime images/icons/wink.gif

but my point\'s more about getting control and a sound that you couldn\'t with more \"traditional\" BC setups.

I mean yah, you could map the BC to the controller that control\'s the speed, but the \"expression\" that a wind player or the expression that goes into playing a wind instrument isn\'t what makes the expression of the sample. Its a wholely different approach.

Time Machine is a granular synthesis with multiple mapping options that allow you to have some crazy real-time control of time manipulation.

This is only part of what I mean tho. I never would want it to be thought that \"Time Machine\" is the end all solution, just to point out that there are new ideas that may prove to give better results and still be \"playable\", just with a different \"playing style\".

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by KingIdiot:

Take for example a SFZ sample in time machine. I can speed up or slow down the sample in realtime. allowing me to build the curve of expression that I want.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">For sure. But I guess I\'m commenting upon the literal joy of playing. Did you say that you use a Ztar? For me, the kind of \"kick\" I get, for lack of a better word, from playing the wind controller would be equivalent to a guitar player controlling with a Ztar. I\'m no longer abstracting myself quite so much. People can hear the results who know my acoustic playing, and they can tell that it\'s \"me.\"

That last point is the clincher, at least to me. It\'s not like I have legions of fans, but there are people who chase around town listening to whatever I do, and who follow and recognize my playing. When I do strictly keyboard/sequence stuff, they don\'t hear \"me\" in it. When I am using the wind controller, they recognize my phrasing, sight unseen. As a player, that\'s pretty important to me. And it\'s not that I\'m a bad keyboardist or that I don\'t know how to sequence or turn a mod wheel--it\'s just that my trademark expression is recognized from my trumpet and flugel playing...and for the derivatives of that. For a long time, I used an IVL Technologies PitchTracker with a special mouthpiece that was drilled to accept a transducer. I was using this to drive analog synths in my live work probably as early as 1990-1991 or so...and amazingly some of that work is more expressive in my mind than the best things I\'ve done with samples.

Which isn\'t to say everything isn\'t just dandy cool today, but I think that the same old rush to \"realism\" that has always accompanied technological advance really tends to push aside the equally important flipside: Players want to play, and the methods of physically tracking human expression have not gotten the same attention as the back-end synthesis/sampling engines. And furthermore, those engines have failed to build on the possibility of alternate controllers. Everything is overwhelmingly keyboard/knob/slider based.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I should add that I\'m speaking of wind control in terms of instruments like EWI/EVI, WX-5, etc.

These are totally different than a BC-01, 02, or 03 which just spit out the controller independent of the notes (and have no \"feel\" whatsoever to them in comparison). With an actual wind controller, fingering the note does nothing until you \"blow,\" so the actual articulation of the note is not finger-driven. You can hold down the fingering forever, but no MIDI is sent until you\'ve started playing.

[JonP]

Absolutely bang on Bruce. Back in my conservatoire days, I remember the studio odd-ball Prof showing us how to use a Yamaha DX1. I was pretty anti-technology then and thought it was pretty lifeless until he used aftertouch to alter a simple sine wave and repeated the same thing on a beautiful old CS80 using what I s\'pose was a sawtooth. It opened my eyes and ears completely to the importance of performance tools in electronic music and how much it defines character, obviously as much as playing any other instrument. Without it, nobody can hear who you really are. There\'s no character.

[MikeGraybill]

Been away from the machine for a day or so, but I wanted to say thanks, Bruce, for the info. I\'m a clarinet player of about 14 years now, and really had to bring my piano chops up to par (which was happening due to compositional processes anyway) in order to improve my speed with sample-based work. I\'ve heard most controllers are fingered more along the lines of a sax/flute than clarinet, which makes sense, but I\'m starting to think that will be a real improvement for me nonetheless.

I\'ll check into your above recomendations first, and see where that gets me - thanks images/icons/smile.gif

mike

[KingIdiot]

well that gels with my point.

Its about player/performer preference. Not the actual results.

[Up Late]

Bruce -- thanks for posting that Steiner piece. Nyle was over for a visit a while ago and what he does is just amazing! And that piece is the perfect example of what I\'m talking about. The difference between his EVI trumpet soloing and the stiff MIDI background stuff is right there, in full relief. Imagine that same piece with a sampled trumpet played on a keyboard. (no, please, don\'t do it). Too many composers fail to realize that, and what we get is someone posting a mp3 demo online of some orcheestral piece that sounds like a pipe organ, but that many think \"yeah dude, that\'s great -- can I hear more.\" I use the VSL and it\'s a great step in the right direction, but I still put at least one real instrument in everything. I just don\'t deliver pure MIDI anymore.

JonP - I agree and do use a Yamha WX5 wind controller to help things out as well. I just wanted things to sound as good as possible, so I learned to play it in about year. BTW, it\'s also possible to hold the WX5 in one hand (for the expression) and key the notes in on a MIDI merged keyboard (makers the learning curve a lot easier).

[Nick Batzdorf]

The Yamaha Breath controllers (BC1,BC2,BC3) are meant to work with Yamaha keyboards, it\'s true, but there is a little module you can buy (can\'t remember now who makes it... oh yeah, Midi Solutions) that converts the BC3 and maybe the others, to midi). <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Actually, the Yamaha BCs work in any instrument that has a BC input, not just Yamaha keyboards. Looking around my room, both the Kurzweil K2500 and KAT pads have them, for example. All the MIDI Solutions box does is provide a BC input for systems that don\'t have one.

Also note that the BC1 doesn\'t do anything but hurt your salivary glands. It was horrible even in a DX-7, which is the instrument it came with! I\'ve never tried a BC2, but the BC3 isn\'t bad.

***
Joanne, you\'re right - I don\'t play the sounds in the EWI 2000m. It\'s a digitally-controlled 2-oscillator analog synth, and I\'m not really into those sounds. I use the Access Virus TDM for synthy sounds. As I said, the VL1 is so far ahead of anything else for a wind controller that I don\'t really bother using the EWI in anything else! It\'s the only synth I know that really responds like an acoustic instrument - although it\'s easier to control, because you can limit the dynamic range.

The other nice thing about the EWI is that it doesn\'t require an embouchure. Well, I guess every wind instrument does by definition, but it doesn\'t require any special embouchure - you just blow into it. Coming from a recorder background, it took me about three days to feel more comfortable on it than on a recorder!

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by Up Late:
I agree and do use a Yamha WX5 wind controller to help things out as well. I just wanted things to sound as good as possible, so I learned to play it in about year. BTW, it\'s also possible to hold the WX5 in one hand (for the expression) and key the notes in on a MIDI merged keyboard (makers the learning curve a lot easier). <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Too funny. I use that trick playing live...I have some patches where I\'ve elminated the extreme upper range, so I just \"finger\" a note that\'s way up there with one hand, and play the keyboard with the other. Takes a little more finger/tongue coordination, but that\'s not a bad skill to hone in general...

My WX5 chops are just OK after a year and a half. I still can\'t get around super fast over the octave breaks, and occasionally I get hung up. So you know Nyle Steiner. I\'m really thinking about an EVI. I almost went for one when I bought the Yamaha, but I figured I\'d spend as much time learning to negotiate the ocatave jumps on the EVI as learning the sax fingerings. Now I am beginning to realize I\'d have probably gotten farther faster on the EVI. The thing I don\'t like about the EWI/EVI that I like very much on the Yamaha is a physical key to push. Everyone I\'ve ever talked to who plays EWI/EVI always complains that learning to keep your fingers off the keys is the hardest part of the process. I think I probably need to go ahead and just have a conversation with Nyle get the poop first hand. It might be possible for him to do a mod, since he builds the darn things by hand.

[Nick Batzdorf]

You haven\'t talked to me, Bruce! I was used to recorder, so the touch keys feel normal. Interestingly, the octave rollers were also really easy, even though it\'s different from pinching with your thumb (on recorder you cover half the thumb hole to play the upper octave - that\'s called pinching). But you\'re still moving your thumb to shift octaves, and the break is at the same point, so it was nothing to learn.

I can\'t do anything on a WX, because I don\'t play anything with Boehm fingering.

By the way, there\'s a new trumpet controller coming out that might interest you. Patchman (Matt Black, whose last name isn\'t Black) has links to it on his site. I think it\'s more trumpet-like than the EVI, but I\'m not sure.

***

That trumpet piece with Nyle playing is really awful! But he\'s an amazing guy. It\'s one thing to play trumpet like he does, another whole thing to invent instruments, and half another thing to be able to program analog synths like he does. He played on a session of mine in the mid-\'80s, and he was remarkable. It took him about three seconds to get every sound I asked for. And he\'s a nice guy on top of that.

[Nick Batzdorf]

By the way, Bruce, I think King is saying that using breath controllers for *expression* is old hat, not that breath controllers themselves are. I stumbled over that comment too.

Am I right, King?

[mschiff]

Bruce,

Have you seen this trumpet controller that is due out soon? It looks very cool. It\'s called the Morrison Digital Horn.

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/mdh.html (\"http://www.patchmanmusic.com/mdh.html\")

-- Martin