Why do my samples sound muddy?

[MDesigner]

I\'ve noticed that my samples are sounding a bit muddy.. I hadn\'t noticed it before, because my treble was turned up a bit. Now I\'ve set everything dead center so I\'m getting a completely unmodified sound. There\'s some kind of problem here for sure. When Maarten heard this clip, he said the horns sounded strange, not like the original recording.

I don\'t know if it\'s a hardware issue, or a software issue, or who knows what? I\'m providing two links here.. one is the raw clip, dumped from Sonar to WAV, then encoded to mp3, and the other was mastered with some EQ\'ing and a harmonic exciter. Does anyone have any ideas as to what\'s going on here?

Thanks in advance.

http://www.samhulick.com/DeadSea_raw.mp3 (\"http://www.samhulick.com/DeadSea_raw.mp3\")
http://www.samhulick.com/DeadSea_mastered.mp3 (\"http://www.samhulick.com/DeadSea_mastered.mp3\")

[Simon Ravn]

I don\'t think there\'s anything wrong with your raw clip. It sounds right to me. Adding a bit of highend, taking away some low mids is \"necessary\" on a lot of samples and I don\'t think SAM horns is an exception. I think it has to do with the nature of far mic\'ed recordings, which is also why you\'d often mix in a bit of spot mics to add some highend presence. I don\'t think it sounds muddy. But I often find myself taking out a bit in the low mids. Also, check your verb settings and see what the bass frequency multiplier is set to (if you have one), it could be adding too much verb at the low end.

[mschiff]

Doesn\'t sound muddy to me either. Maybe it\'s your monitors. I also don\'t hear a great deal of difference between your two clips.

-- Martin

[MDesigner]

Wow, strange. The difference between those two for me is night and day. And that first clip sounds muddy in three situations: my speakers, headphones plugged directly into the sound card, and in my car.

Actually, I take that back.. with the headphones plugged directly into my card, it doesn\'t sound that bad really. I can tell the difference though, but it\'s much more subtle.

I\'m just trying to figure out how to deliver this WAV file when it\'s done. It\'s going to be on a PlayStation2 console.. and everyone has different types of speakers hooked up, but I figure if it sounds muddy on my consumer audio computer speakers, and in my car, then I should probably master it before releasing it.. that way it will sound crisp on nearly any speaker system when the game is being played.

[carlmsmith]

Sam-
I listened on my studio Event 20/20 monitors. I hear a difference, of course, betweeen the two- the horns seem to emerge from the percussion background on the mastered version.

I don\'t hear anything in the horns that I would call muddy on either version. The equalization seemed to give a little frequency separation, which often gives better definition to the sound. Anyway, sounds good!
Carl

[MDesigner]

Thanks.. I was just checking to make sure nothing is set up wrong in my sound card or in Giga. My dad seemed to think there was some kind of loss somewhere causing this.

At any rate, the mastered version definitely sounds better, so I\'ll just have to pipe everything through the mastering app.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by MDesigner:
I figure if it sounds muddy on my consumer audio computer speakers, and in my car, then I should probably master it before releasing it.. that way it will sound crisp on nearly any speaker system when the game is being played. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'m not in the game biz, so I don\'t know what the mastering situation is. Personally, if I were mastering a game, I would want to run that process like any mix/mastering situation and hear all of the elements (voiceover, fx, music) in place before making too many decisions. You may not be a part of that process, but I\'ll bet somewhere on the team (unless it\'s a small/startup type operation) there\'s a final mix which marries up all the levels and EQ for the elements.

I would just provide the cleanest possible product.

If you are mixing on computer speakers, you should stop doing that immediately!! Get some monitors, maybe some little Mackie 624s. Mixing on computer speakers is never a good idea, because you simply won\'t hear the details in balance. Something that sounds in balance on monitors will translate effectively to systems large and small.

But I don\'t know if I would do any \"Mastering\" in the big-M sense, because at some point everything will need to be blended together and you will have already maximized your signals, dithered, etc. You\'d probably just want to make sure everything lives in the same general \"world\" and that the levels are all nice and hot but not slammed.

As I said, my experience is not in games, so this may not be all valid. I\'ll say this, though...If they\'re putting out games where the raw music tracks are what makes it onto the final mixed product, then I\'d have to wonder what kinds of people are making that decision. I would certainly not put out a product in that fashion. There\'s really no way to even make EQ or compression decisions for any of the elements until you hear them all working together.

[MDesigner]

I\'ve been told before to pick up some monitors.. trouble is, I don\'t have a lot of money. And now that I\'m unemployed, it\'s completely not an option. I\'m going to have to work with what I have. Once I land more gigs, I\'ll definitely invest in a pair of monitors.

[Simon Ravn]

Sam, I do think your mastered version sounds better than the raw one though! I don\'t think you overdid the production.

[MDesigner]

Yeah, there\'s no contest there, Simon images/icons/smile.gif A bit of EQ\'ing helps, and I run it through a harmonic exciter, which brightens everything up, especially the horns. It also gives GOS a little more bite.

[Scott Cairns]

Sam, just a thought, and I may get shot for saying it, but if you can, spring for some sort of second hand hi fi speakers. These will still be better than mixing on PC speakers.

I own a pair of jbl\'s, nothing flash, but I have learned to work around the colours that these speakers put in and take out. For example, a lot of my mix\'s that sound good on the jbl\'s are a little dull on other systems. I usually nudge in a bit of 8K for some sparkle and it does the trick.

Regards, Scott.

[Jared Hudson]

Sounds pretty good to me, but one minor thing. It\'s personal preference of mine, but I think it would sound a little more \"real\" if you pulled the horns in front of the mix, and push the percussion in the back of the hall. Makes you feel like you\'re the audience watching the concert (and also how many real orchestral recordings are mixed), but if you like the \"sitting in the middle\" feel, then go for it. images/icons/wink.gif

Jared

[Runyon]

I just listened to both mp3\'s through a pair of genelecs. I think the unmastered one sounds better. The only thing I would do is drop the low-mids a few db. A simple run through a modestly set multi-band would do the trick.

The mastered one is a bit too much EQ. Sounds a little thin.

Take reverb notes with a grain of salt. It\'s personal taste. I don\'t think there is too much at all.

Overall, the note about not mastering is a good one. That is best left to the mix engineer in dubbing. Not sure how they want delivery, but you may want to send the percussion on a separate track to be mixed in at dubbing.

[JonFairhurst]

If you\'re low on funds, go for headphones rather than speakers. Not because headphones are better, but because you can get some top level cans for under $100, while monitors with similar quality cost roughly ten times that.

I\'d recommend the Sennheiser HD 280s or Sony 7506s. Both are closed for good isolation, and are reasonably flat. Audio Technica has some phones in that market, but I didn\'t like the pair I tried.

The Senns have better isolation and are more neutral. The Sonys sound \"prettier\" and I think are more comfortable to wear for long sessions. The 7506s have been around longer, so you\'d be more likely to find a used pair.

I was looking for isolation, so I didn\'t research open headphones, but these often have a bigger sound. Don\'t go for Grados or other audiophile phones. They sound beautiful, but are very scooped. You want flat and accurate. Make sure you shop professional monitor headphones.

I\'m not a big fan of mixing with headphones. But I\'d rather mix on a $99 pair of phones than a $99 pair of speakers any day.

[thesoundsmith]

Amen to Bruce!

What I hear sounds like compression on the reverb, so everything is squashed together including the hall.

Suggestions, some of which have been made already:

Back off the 200-400 Hz range a coule of dB.

Less reverb, or less low end on reverb, or shorter decay.

Select the horn parts and make each note (midi event) a few ticks shorter.

Keep reverbs on an instrument-by-instrument or section-by-section basis. Use global reverb VERY sparingly, just enough to unify the room sound.

Minimal compression, and try to use it before the reverb rather than compressing the reverb with the track (this can be tricky on some sequencers/mixers, but can make a huge difference.)

Don\'t \'master\' until the entire production is mastered. If you have overall level balancing issues, fix them in the score, not by using limiters.

More work, but it gets rid of a lot of your perceived problems.

Nice track, BTW!

Dasher

[£e petit Prïnçe]

Don´t know, if I´m already too late, but still want to throw in my opinion.

I also hear a great difference between the two, especially when hearing the first AFTER the second. The first then sounds dull compared. BUT... don´t let yourself be misleaded by the sweet sweet sound of exciters and overdo it. I second here the opinion of runyon. The second one sounds much sweeter, but a bit overdone.
I at your place would make a compromise. Take 50% of the things you´ve done between the first and the second and you will be perfect !

I do a little trick to find out the right amount of low and hi. When I compose and still when mastering a piece, I hear it with neutral on my (hi-fi) amp. When it sounds sweet on neutral, I switch to full bass and treble to find out, if it sounds too much. If it is alright, I switch back to neutral to find out, if it now sounds way too muddy and looses all the sweetness, or if it is still acceptable. So I go back and forth and back and forth and hear other similar recordings in comparison and how they sound in neutral and with bass and hi boost and try to achieve the same sound ( which is impossible most of the time with sweet real orchestra recordings images/icons/wink.gif . At some point, I am either happy or totally desparate *g* and leave it as it is.

Hope that helps...

[MDesigner]

Thanks for the valuable advice! I\'ll keep messing with my settings until it sounds just right.

Jon: I\'ve got a pair of Sony MDR-7506s.. but I don\'t think I\'ve got them plugged into the best place. Here\'s the deal: my Audiophile 2496 runs out into this little convertor box that basically acts as a headphone jack for my speakers (since they don\'t have their own headphone jack). So when I plug in headphones, it cuts out the sound to the speakers and directs the sound to the headphones only. The problem is, I don\'t know if this box is REALLY a pure, direct signal from the sound card, or if there\'s any kind of loss occurring. I can tell you that the sound that comes through the headphones from the box is pretty crisp, but lacking a lot of bass. I think that\'s how monitors are supposed to sound, correct?

[DevonB]

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by MDesigner:
I figure if it sounds muddy on my consumer audio computer speakers, and in my car, then I should probably master it before releasing it.. that way it will sound crisp on nearly any speaker system when the game is being played. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'m not in the game biz, so I don\'t know what the mastering situation is. Personally, if I were mastering a game, I would want to run that process like any mix/mastering situation and hear all of the elements (voiceover, fx, music) in place before making too many decisions. You may not be a part of that process, but I\'ll bet somewhere on the team (unless it\'s a small/startup type operation) there\'s a final mix which marries up all the levels and EQ for the elements.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Ah, if it were that easy. If music wasn\'t inserted at the end of the project. If people actually worked together and LISTENED to one another, and not have the programmer be an ego maniac. If you could hear all the sound effects and music together in EVERY situation which isn\'t possible with interactive media like games.

If you\'re in house, it\'s easier. If you\'re contracted, good luck. There\'s a lot of \'flying by the seat of your pants\' in the games industry. images/icons/frown.gif

Devon

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Yes. I had one negotiation with a game company, and let\'s just say I chose to disengage...

[devinmaxwell]

quote:
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Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:

quote:
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Originally posted by MDesigner:
I figure if it sounds muddy on my consumer audio computer speakers, and in my car, then I should probably master it before releasing it.. that way it will sound crisp on nearly any speaker system when the game is being played.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I\'m not in the game biz, so I don\'t know what the mastering situation is. Personally, if I were mastering a game, I would want to run that process like any mix/mastering situation and hear all of the elements (voiceover, fx, music) in place before making too many decisions. You may not be a part of that process, but I\'ll bet somewhere on the team (unless it\'s a small/startup type operation) there\'s a final mix which marries up all the levels and EQ for the elements.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah, if it were that easy. If music wasn\'t inserted at the end of the project. If people actually worked together and LISTENED to one another, and not have the programmer be an ego maniac. If you could hear all the sound effects and music together in EVERY situation which isn\'t possible with interactive media like games.

If you\'re in house, it\'s easier. If you\'re contracted, good luck. There\'s a lot of \'flying by the seat of your pants\' in the games industry. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yeah, this year at GDC, one of the audio panel speakers said something to the effect of \"The only post-production in video games is the plastic wrap on the out side of the box.\"

It\'s kind of funny, but any post-production is really hard to get in any shape or form in games. Time is a problem, as audio is usually added late in the project, money is a problem, as post-production budgeting is still unheard of for most small developers, and technology is still a little bit of a problem, as everything is still mixed on the fly.

What I did while I was in-house was to try and combine the music and sound as early as possible and get feedback to the music provider and the SFX providers. Usually this was in the form of putting all the SFX into gigastudio or some sampler and using a sequencer to create a mock-up of the audio portion of the game. I would then send this out to both the SFX guy and the music guy with recommendations on what to change in their mixes. Sometimes I would get the files back with no changes and I would just have to fix things myself, but more often than not, the next mix was substantially better. Usually, the music was more of a problem than SFX because we mostly got full-frequency maximized tracks that had a lot of reverb. Rather than simply turn down the music (which is the usual solution), I asked for a dryer mix with frequency holes for the sfx, but that is somewhat difficult to do, so sometimes we had to take care of it in-house. I never got music that was too dry or too thin.

Ok, unfortunately that has little to do with helping sam unmuddy his samples, but what can you do?

-dev

[bluedane]

Hey MDesigner,

I\'m a PS2 audio developer and I\'ve seen a lot of audio get crunched to hell when it goes through the PS2. Are you going to use vag compression and play it though the IOP audio engine or are you streaming? If you\'re going to vag compress it, you\'ll lose all you high end. I built the synth for Amplitude and we had to pre-boost all of our samples in the high end just to compensate for the loss of high end due to compression.

Anyway, if you\'re streaming it should be a simple pass through, but I wanted to give you a heads up because any subtle eq\'ing youre doing now will be insignificant when vag compressed into an SPU2 bank.
-denny-

p.s. I believe that AWave studio has a better sounding vag compression than Sony\'s in-house tool. (which is amusing because the vag format is supposed to be a proprietary secret.) =)

[MDesigner]

All of that flew over my head, bluedane images/icons/smile.gif I don\'t know, I\'m subcontracted so the other guy\'s audio people are probably tweaking my tunes.

[KingIdiot]

hehee

yah sam, you\'re not alone. Since the entrance of CD streams, anyone and their grandma can make music for games (thank god, cuz thats how I got in), Its a good idea to learn what will happen to your audio tho, and how it will be working in the game. Then get youself some development books/tools so you can hear first hand what happens, and possibly compensate.
Its a VERY good idea to learn how the different platforms work. That is if you want to push the medium a bit. Working with good developers can lead to some incredible ideas for pushing the envelope. Knowing how it works is the only way to get there.

Still you\'re subcontracting, so it should be up to the contractor to let you know this stuff, and also to make sure all the seperate mixes sound consistant (if there are more than one composer on the project). Which basically can mean you dont have to worry about squat. Just supply what the contracter tells you to.

Blue,

welcome, good job, and GOOD, atleast I know I\'m not the only one using AWAVE for VAG images/icons/smile.gif

[bluedane]

Do you have an idea of how many audio people on this forum are developers? It would be cool if there could be cross-over discussions of more technical nature. Lot\'s of smart people out there...
-d-

[Scott Cairns]

Since the entrance of CD streams, anyone and their grandma can make music for games (thank god, cuz thats how I got in),<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">- King thats funny in a way cause you strike me as one of the most technologically minded people here. images/icons/wink.gif

I reckon you would\'ve done well in the days of the \"bleeps and bloops\" - meaning of course that its rare to have a creative minded individual that can still work within technical confines. (like 8 bit!)

Scott.

[Marsdy]

Originally posted by bluedane:
Hey MDesigner,

I\'m a PS2 audio developer and I\'ve seen a lot of audio get crunched to hell when it goes through the PS2. Are you going to use vag compression and play it though the IOP audio engine or are you streaming? If you\'re going to vag compress it, you\'ll lose all you high end. I built the synth for Amplitude and we had to pre-boost all of our samples in the high end just to compensate for the loss of high end due to compression.

Anyway, if you\'re streaming it should be a simple pass through, but I wanted to give you a heads up because any subtle eq\'ing youre doing now will be insignificant when vag compressed into an SPU2 bank.
-denny-

p.s. I believe that AWave studio has a better sounding vag compression than Sony\'s in-house tool. (which is amusing because the vag format is supposed to be a proprietary secret.) =) <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well that\'s interesting info. We\'re sick of Sony\'s AIFFtoVAG app here images/icons/mad.gif

Just to be sure, is this the app you and King are talking about...

http://www.fmjsoft.com/awframe.html (\"http://www.fmjsoft.com/awframe.html\")

[Bruce A. Richardson]

That\'s it.

[Marsdy]

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
That\'s it. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Thanks Bruce images/icons/smile.gif