Please post any questions here.

[Garritan]

Feel free to post your comments about the "Exploring Jazz Arranging" course.

If you have any questions you want to ask Chuck Israels, please post them here.

Enjoy the course


Gary Garritan

[Rhap2]

Excellent course so far.

In LESSON 2, what are the little "triangles" in Ex. 2-10? At first,
I thought they were diminished 7th chords, but they
don't entirely sound that way...........

Jack

[chikitin]

Excellent course so far.

In LESSON 2, what are the little "triangles" in Ex. 2-10?
Jack

Triangles sopposedly/mathematically represent triads. But not in jazz, unfortunately!! This means, Maj7 chord. Maybe because the triangle is the uppercass "d" or Delta in Greek! The handwritten chords if not crisp can be mistaken for the little circle denoting the diminished chord.
For Jazz chord notations:

http://www.malletjazz.com/lessons/cho_symb_les.html#major
http://www.malletjazz.com/lessons/

[Rhap2]

Thanks Chitikin. I always used "M" for major 7th chords.

Will Chuck's course ALWAYS use the triangle for major
chords or will we vascillate back and forth on different
symbols. Confusing to newcomers if we do.

I realize there are "many" ways of naming chords in jazz.
Since all Forum members have a chance to study Chuck's
great course, I hope we can arrive at some kind of
standardization. I'm a theory buff myself, but I can adapt
to anything asked of me if it is consistent.

Thanks again,

Jack

[cisraels]

Excellent course so far.

In LESSON 2, what are the little "triangles" in Ex. 2-10? At first,
I thought they were diminished 7th chords, but they
don't entirely sound that way...........

Jack


Hi Jack,

Those are Major 7th chords and, to answer your other question: yes, all Major 7th chords are represented by the triangle symbol throughout the book.

Chuck

[nova.music]

Just a side note: the triangle as a major 7th was developed by Nashville studio musicians as part of a chord shorthand. It really has nothing to do with jazz, but jazz guys picked up on it. In my travels I have found some people really opposed to charts written with these shorthand symbols. I personally learned using these symbols and have no problem with them, but I would warn anyone who aspires to be a pro arranger -- be carefull 'cause once in a while you will find someone who does not know these symbols.

[chikitin]

Great lesson. I learned a lot. I am just getting into Jazz. But it is interesting to see that jazz is not that ruleless, as many classically trained musicians believe so. Not me though!

It was interesting here to see that the 7th mostly resolves downward by a step as in classical music due to tonicization!


Quote:
"In fact, when the last note of a measure is the seventh of the chord, it must lead downward by step, usually to the third of the following chord."



This describes exactly the resolution of a secondary dominant chord.

Quote:
"The other acceptable condition for the fifth remaining in the bass is in a passage where the chord in question is approached and left by step."

As Professor Israels pointed out, in this case having the fifth in the bass is acceptable. The triad version of this position ( when the fifth is in the bass) is called the passing six-four chord. In this case, the bass tone is treated as a passing tone. Step progressions often strengthen the sense of which key the piece is in by ending on either 1, 3 or 5 in tonal music. I was wondering if I could say the same thing in the tonal Jazz.

[nova.music]

Quote:
"In fact, when the last note of a measure is the seventh of the chord, it must lead downward by step, usually to the third of the following chord."
This describes exactly the resolution of a secondary dominant chord.


I'm not sure I understand this completely. Is this step movement really a 1/2 step? Example: the last note of a measure is F (the chord would be G7) the next note would then be E (the 3rd of a Cmaj chord). This is because a G7 puts you in the key of C and gives you a 4th to 3rd or a "Fa" to "Mi" resolution. If I am correct then I understand this concept. If not can I get pointed to the right direction?

THANKS...This course is great!

[chikitin]

[quote=nova.music]Quote:
If I am correct then I understand this concept.
[quote]

Yes you are correct! a half-step downward ( diatonic half step ) as you mentioned!

[dsampson55]

I new to the study of Jazz, but I was wondering one thing that isn't addressed in Chapter 1. Why does Jazz utilize 7th chords so often? And, what are the predominant scales used in Jazz? Perhaps the second question implies the answer to the first *() .

thanks

dave

[nova.music]

""I new to the study of Jazz, but I was wondering one thing that isn't addressed in Chapter 1. Why does Jazz utilize 7th chords so often? And, what are the predominant scales used in Jazz? Perhaps the second question implies the answer to the first *() .""

I'll take a stab at this question. Jazz musicians try to push the harmonic boundaries as much as possible. In actuality chords are an implied function of the scale being used at the moment-- so even 7th chords are implying the 13th. And if you analyze it--a 13th chord spelled out completely will give you every note in the current scale. Jazz uses all scales, but the blues scale seems to be the most used or preferred.

[CallMeZoot]

I new to the study of Jazz, but I was wondering one thing that isn't addressed in Chapter 1. Why does Jazz utilize 7th chords so often? And, what are the predominant scales used in Jazz? Perhaps the second question implies the answer to the first *() .

thanks

dave

I'm not sure if there's an explanation for why jazz uses 7th chords so often, it's just what jazz is. Extensive use of 7th chords is one of the main characteristics of jazz harmony. You could play a purely triadic piece in a jazz style but I suspect it would sound a bit childish. The 7th chord tends to be the building block of jazz harmony, whereas the triad is the building block of common-practice classical music. Tensions in jazz are added with 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths, or with chords built in 4ths (often implying m7 or other chords).

Regarding scales, it depends what styles of jazz you're talking about. The melodies of most standards often come from old showtunes, and tend to simply use the major scale or the blues scale, but improvisors often use the dorian and mixolydian modes extensively because they outline the ii7-V7. (If the piece is fairly diatonic, you're essentially in the major key the whole time, just changing your center).

When you want to go a tiny bit further out, a lot of improvisors like to use lydian, or "lydianized" alterations of another scale -- the sharp 4 adds kind of a bright spicy flavor to a line. Also, modes of the melodic minor scale (i.e. play the melodic minor scale starting on a note other than the root) are used to spice up a line without really going too far "out."

These are just some of my go-tos from my education and playing experience, but I'm pretty amateur as a jazz player. I'm sure Chuck will have a lot more to say when he goes into melody.

chris.

[chikitin]

""I new to the study of Jazz, but I was wondering one thing that isn't addressed in Chapter 1. Why does Jazz utilize 7th chords so often? .

Jazz music is full of different styles, each with their own style and origin. There are some jazz music without a single 7th chord!!! actually they only use extended chords ( 9th, 11, 13th) depends on the style of the Jazz!!! but yes most Jazz music utilize 7th chords frequently. The four distinct components of jazz music are rhythm, harmony, melody, and tonal qualities. In my opinion rhythm is more prominent/important in Jazz than the chords/coloring! I don't think if one plays a jazz melody, say blues with triads, the style of the music changes.

But of course, Professor Israels can answer your question better.

[chikitin]

Please delete this!

[oldbob]

I see it differently... there is a way of considering chords as "colours", as "timbres". In a sense, superimposing a chord on a fundamental is giving that note a certain timbre. So in blues style the dominant chord which in a tonal context is usually a V or temporary V is instead used on every chord because of the colour it adds to the roots. This procedure was adopted by many classical composers from the end on the 19th century on. So my explanation is jazz needs that kind of colours, and really not only 7ths, but usually the 9ths are given by default, and 13ths on dominants. This doesn't mean you can't every now and then use the pure colour of the triad... this is my point of view

Roberto

[nova.music]

It's interesting to get the different views on the 7th chord question. It's a question that almost can't be answered, yet the posts are very good. It reminds me of Dizzy G (I think it was him) saying "Talking about music is like dancing about architecture".

[Journeyman]

dsampson55,

Are you satisifed with the answers to your question about 7ths, or would you like further elaboration?

[dsampson55]

dsampson55,

Are you satisifed with the answers to your question about 7ths, or would you like further elaboration?

This has been a very good discussion - different people bringing their experiences and knowledge together. So yes it is very helpful.

If I can summarize, it would appear that 7th, 9th, and 13th chords are used to give the "colorization" associated with jazz. Perhaps the Harmony chapters will deal more with this.

Also, I wonder if there is a different in chord type choices that occur if you are writing to structured jazz (i.e. Big Band Swing) or improvisational which can be highly unstructured. From what little I've seen of the Big Band scores, they seem to follow more of the Maj/Minor chord usage that we find in "typical" music. Whereas, the improvisational jazz uses much more of the chords mentioned earlier.

thanks

dave

[Journeyman]

dsampson55,
it would appear that 7th, 9th, and 13th chords are used to give the "colorization" associated with jazz. Let's put it this way: Jazz is an artform that encourages it's practitioners to "push the envelope". Think of 7th, 9th, and 13th chords as just some of the many colors available on our palette. They are not exclusive to jazz though, and appear in other genres of music as well, including classical.

Also, I wonder if there is a different in chord type choices that occur if you are writing to structured jazz (i.e. Big Band Swing) or improvisational which can be highly unstructured. From what little I've seen of the Big Band scores, they seem to follow more of the Maj/Minor chord usage that we find in "typical" music. Whereas, the improvisational jazz uses much more of the chords mentioned earlier. I disagree with that statement. Realize that the musicians in a professional big band know ALL of the available permutations of these chords (not just the 7th, 9th, and 13th), and use them even when they are not printed on the sheet in front of them. So if a big band pianist or guitarist sees a C7 on the page, it wouldn't be surprising at all for him to play a C7#9 b13 if it works within the context of the piece. And whether you're talking about big band music or improvisational jazz, the soloist (or improvisor) also includes those notes, based on his knowledge of what's available in the context of what he hears from the other musicians around him.

Lastly, there are writers of big band music that write very accessable, traditional sounding scores (such as those that you allude to), and then there are those whose writing is so "outside" that their chords cannot be communicated by conventional chord symbols. It's all a matter of what you've been exposed to. Hope this helps.

[mrjnace]

Okay, another opinion to throw in the mix about why seventh chords should be used.

The way I understand it is a little more complicated, but it makes a certain amount of sense.

One of the previous posts mentioned that small chord symbols often imply larger chords. This is very true, but most people do not take the concept far enough.

This is really important: CHORDS AND SCALES ARE TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN. When we write a chord symbol, we are not identifying the chord to be played, but rather the scale that a solost might use to play over that harmony; the chord is simply the same scale, rearranged (usually into thirds) so that the notes are farther appart from each other (so they don't clash) and played at the same time.

Jazz chord symbols represent a whole series of IMPLICATIONS. In particular, the major seventh chord symbol implies the major scale, and therefore, ANY MAJOR EXTENDED CHORD (including ninths, elevenths, and thirteenths). The minor chord symbol implies the minor scale, and the dominant seventh chord symbol implies the mixolydian scale or, as in lesson 5, lydian b7.

Here we finally come to the reason why many chords are sevenths (in theory): a triad is not sufficient to imply one single scale. Even key has three diatonic major triads and three diatonic minor triads. Even using several of these in combination, it is often not clear what key a chord progression is in. Consider the pattern C-G/B-Am. Is this I-V^6-vi in the key of C or is it IV-I^6-ii in the key of G? We cannot tell. But if you add the appropriate seventh chords, you will see that in the key of C, the progression would be Cmaj7-G7/B-Am7, and in G, it would be Cmaj7-Gmaj7/B-Am7. With the seventh chords added, you can look at (or hear) the chord progression and instantly know what key it is in. To take the principle further, there are many who believe that the music is more satisfying when the chord progressions are less ambiguous to the ear, and this explains why the sevenths should be played: they are the smallest form of chord for which any two consecutive chords clearly imply the key centre (it should be mentioned here that too much tonal implication can also be unsatisfying; the key to all arranging in any style of music is always to find the balance between predictability and unpredictability).

Of course, this concept of implications goes much further than this. To really be clear about the chord progressions, the above examples should be rendered Cmaj7-G7/B-Am7(b13) and Cma7(#11)-Gmaj7-Am7. In this case, each of the three chords is labelled distinctly differently in each case, further clarifying which key is being used at any given time.

However, it bears remembering that the chord symbol Cmaj7(#11) does not mean to play the chord CEGBF#; it implies the C Lydian Scale, and the harmonies could be any chord related to the scale, including the simple C major triad, or the Cmaj13(#11), at the discretion of the performers/arranger. As has been previously mentioned, tonic minor chords are sometimes played as triads, and some styles of jazz, especially Dixieland, rarely use anything more than triads and dominant seventh chords.

[mrjnace]

There is one thing I found on the lesson 5 page on which I would like some quick clarification.

Every dominant seventh chord presented uses a #11. In the second and fourth cetegories, this is fairly obvious, given the symetrical construction of the scales. However, what about the first case, in which the diatonic 11 degree is not #11? This leads me to a further question which has interested me for some time: sus4.

Should I understand that a #11 is used because a n11 qould be better rendered as a sus4? I know that there are those who feel that the 3rd degree should be removed in a sus4 chord, but following correct theoretical practices only requires that the 3rd be removed from the octave in which the sus4 is included (otherwise the chord becomes add4 or add11, rather than sus4 or sus11), while the 3rd may remain in other registers. Assuming the m9 is avoided between the M3 and the P11, is there any other reason that I am not aware why a n11 should not be used?

I notice also that you did not mention how 11th factors should be resolved in voice-leading. If 1/5 are linked, and 3/7 are linked, and 9/13 are linked, how does one resolve 11? Clearly it cannot be linked to anything (there is nothing left to link it with). Is it to be held over into the next chord? It the same true of #11?

Speaking of which, how does this style of linked voice-leading apply to altered notes? Should a #9 still resolve downward to a natural 6 or 13 when it could resolve to the 7th of a maj7? Should a b9 still resolve upward to the natural 6 or 13 when it could resolve downward to the perfect 5th? Should a #5 still resolve downward to the root when it could resolve upward to the third (or hold to the third in the case of resolving to a minor chord)? Classical voice-leading requires that altered notes resolve in the direction of their alterations; is this true here, or is it better to keeped to the linked pairs?

[mrjnace]

On the topic of the various types of Dominant seventh chords, I would like to understand better how and when they should be used. The lesson was quite clear about the types of melodies associated with each; however, if there are no clues in the melody (for instance when the melody is static at the end of a phrase), how does one decide when to use one type rather than the other? Is this entirely a question of personal taste, or are there other clues to suggest the correct selection?

[Journeyman]

if there are no clues in the melody (for instance when the melody is static at the end of a phrase), how does one decide when to use one type rather than the other? Is this entirely a question of personal taste, or are there other clues to suggest the correct selection? Often there isn't only one "correct selection" (depending on the harmonic context). The beauty of Jazz is that it isn't that formulaic. Predictability would essentially emasculate it, and remove what inherantly makes it so wonderful; the ability to constantly surprise and inspire new directions. That said, the harmonic context of a tune can sometimes help. For instance, let's say that you're looking at a tune like "So What". It's all in a Dorian mode using minor7th chords, and if you were to stick in a dom7 ar a maj7, it would be so out of context that it would sound "wrong". But in songs that use more conventional progressions, you often have several options depending on the function of the chord and what you're trying to accomplish at that musical juncture. Hope this helps.

[raweber]

I very much enjoyed lesson 6. Especially the last example showing different ways to move up a simple step.

That being said, the last line of the example didn't play (the Bill Evans version). I would very much like to hear that one.

Thanks for all the hard work,
Rob

[cisraels]

The 7th chord is the "triad" of the jazz language - the basic harmonic texture. Asking why there are so many of them in jazz is like asking why there is so much garlic and wine in French cuisine, or ginger in Chinese; it's simply an essential identifying characteristic of the style.

Up until the devolution of popular music in the 1960s, it is pretty safe to say that an increase in harmonic complexity and density was a part of musical evolution. It is another discussion to explore the subject of why this seemingly natural evolution was stopped in its tracks when the baby boom generation reached adolescence.

Chuck

[raweber]

I know that this is supposed to be a Jazz Arranging class, irrespective of MIDI mock-ups or rendering, but I think that there might be a tremendous opportunity here (this is at least partly inspired by receiving my JABB order from the Go-Round today - thanks, Gary).

What I'm thinking is that many of us who are learning the art of jazz arranging would benefit greatly from also getting some tips on the art of jazz rendering. This will help us hear more precisely what we are working on. (It would also be a great sales pitch for JABB).

For instance, how about posting the MIDI file for selected, larger-scale examples from the class, such as Levitt or Leave It with some annotation about how and why things were done. There have been many posts from people that LOLI is the best JABB rendering they have heard to date, and I'm in that camp.

So, how about it?

[Journeyman]

I do think that that's a great idea, but can we keep it in a seperate thread from this one? Those of us learning arranging for real instruments will get taken far off topic otherwise.

[Garritan]

This is a course on Jazz Arranging and not on sample mockups. It is important to learn the basics first. If there is interest after the course we can delve into mockups and provide MIDI examples.

Best,

Gary

[jmpaquette]

"Some of this is discussed in the book, and I suggest that anyone exploring how the art of music works also have a rudimentary knowledge of the physics of the harmonic series. Without a simple background in that, it is much harder to figure out how musical structures function.

Chuck"

Prof. Israels makes a point here that is, in my view, one of the truest of jewels. With a background in the physics of the harmonic series, much of what was a mystery becomes, almost magically, intuitively understood.

The natural harmonics describe something much closer to a "dominant seventh" scale (Mixolydian mode) than "major" (Ionian). It isn't static: it generates motion because it wants to "resolve." Chord progressions are more about "taming" the rhythms that are generated by the chordal relationships than anything else. Putting it loosely: any arbitrarily chosen chord can move to any other chord; where it might best move was discussed in a post above about "tonal centers." Why it might move there is the purview of the arranger/composer. Why it wants to move to certain other chords is the purview of the physics of the harmonic overtone series (and undertone series) and the physics of the instruments being used.

I think it's extremely valuable for this text to emphasize the importance of the bass lines in harmonic and rhythmic contexts. Any arranger/composer can benefit from studying the materials . . . not just Jazz folks.

Joe

[Ptyprez]

Greetings to all from Panama City, Panama; I just stumbled into this course totally by accident. Curiosity got the best of me and started reading and getting into the forum questions. Im an amateur at all this, I only do it on my spare time and find this site and its members very informative, knowledgeable and professional. Looking forward to continue visiting and contributing.

There is something I am missing, and is guided practice. Maybe I have not found it yet, but, shouldnt there be some "homework" after each lesson? something we can work on and share with the rest of the group? am I missing something?

Also, what is the deal with the closed threads? is there a way to read them?

Prez

[Garritan]

Greetings to all from Panama City, Panama; I just stumbled into this course totally by accident. Curiosity got the best of me and started reading and getting into the forum questions. Im an amateur at all this, I only do it on my spare time and find this site and its members very informative, knowledgeable and professional. Looking forward to continue visiting and contributing.

There is something I am missing, and is guided practice. Maybe I have not found it yet, but, shouldnt there be some "homework" after each lesson? something we can work on and share with the rest of the group? am I missing something?

Also, what is the deal with the closed threads? is there a way to read them?

PrezPrez,

Welcome to the course and I hope you glean a great deal from it.

We do not have "homework" in this course. We tried it in the Principles of Orchestration and homework was not popular.

The Lesson threads themselves are closed and are sticky. You should be able to read them but not post in them. You can comment and start a new thread at any time.

Best,

Gary Garritan

[gisuskraist]

The 7th chord is the "triad" of the jazz language - the basic harmonic texture. Asking why there are so many of them in jazz is like asking why there is so much garlic and wine in French cuisine, or ginger in Chinese; it's simply an essential identifying characteristic of the style.

Up until the devolution of popular music in the 1960s, it is pretty safe to say that an increase in harmonic complexity and density was a part of musical evolution. It is another discussion to explore the subject of why this seemingly natural evolution was stopped in its tracks when the baby boom generation reached adolescence.

Chuck

Mr Israels, I think you hit the nail , adolescence equals rebelion against the establishment and until then the establishment was harmonic complexity. And what do you mean by devolution? Decrease in quality or just going back to the roots?
Regarding the course I really liked all the examples, its inspiring to see all this information released for everyone to see. Is there any chance of a "tips" lesson (books to read, recomended homework)?

[raweber]

And what do you mean by devolution? Decrease in quality or just going back to the roots?

I think he means less harmonic (and rhythmic) complexity. That's certainly my interpretation of recent music history. Look at the lead sheet for a jazz standard in the 50s, and compare it to a pop song from the 60s. No 7ths, no altered 5ths or 9ths (no 9ths at all). Straight ahead rock beats.

Okay, maybe it wasn't overnight, or that black and white - Motown was still strongly jazz inflenced, but much of what topped the charts was simple blues forms.

There was a little boost to complexity in the 70s with prog rock, but that was swallowed up by punk and disco. Then in the 80s the rise of hip-hop and rap brought music with a harmonic complexity of, essentially, zero.

Now I look at the popular music of today's youth and what do we see? I - IV - V - vii. That's it. When a song with another chord making a brief appearance comes along, it's "new" and "fresh."

Thank you, Dr. Israels, for helping us fight the good fight.

[pgfan92]

The turning point was when they started wanting more money. Then they became business men, utilizing strategies to get songs stuck in peoples' heads, one such strategy is the chorus, and including the title of the song in the chorus. Hooks are another strategy. Also, simple beats and harmony are another strategy so that people with minimal ability to audiate could have the song stuck in their head.

I have a question though, for those of us fond of playing rhythm guitar, how does voice leading work for that? Seeing as chords should be relatively playable on guitar, I wouldn't think it'd be all that easy to come up with chord shapes for guitar.

[koella]

Oh, I can hardly wait.~|
When is the next chapter coming up ?

[buckshead]

Gary said recently (on Chat) that he was working on it and the musical excerpts were being finalised

[koella]

Ok, thanks for the info.

[eyesore]

I had a question about example 2-1 in lesson 2. The third example there is described as having no parallel 5ths or octaves but there are parallel 5ths between the inner voices. I guess what was meant was that there were none involving the bass, since the lesson is about bass, and that parallel 5ths in the inner voices is perfectly normal in jazz? I haven't read on to further lessons yet. Thanks.