Which program is the best?

[amerweb]

Hello:

I would like to know before I go spending loads of money (which I DON'T need to do!) which program is the best for...

1. Sequencing
2. Notation

...and why you like it the best. Right now Sonar PE and Sibelius has been recomended to me. Although I have heard a little about Motu's DP. My area of work is more film soundtrack and I have only GPO. I would like to be able to sit down and compose music right away when an idea comes into my head (hence the notation program) and I would like a simple yet very complex if I need it midi editor that will help me make my compositions with GPO sound as realistic as possible! My goal is the most realistic sound that I can get seeing I do not have the money to hire a real orchestra! Thank you in advance!

amerweb

[robmanderson]

Overture 4. It has (IMHO) much better MIDI editing capability than either Finale or Sibelius (I tried the demos). That said, I do the final tweaking for a performance in Sonar because of the much better mixing and effect chaining.

Sounds like you're looking for the same program I'm looking for - kind of a cross between Overture and Sonar - they both have their strengths and their weaknesses and neither is perfect but the combo is pretty good.

Unfortunately, if that program exists I haven't found it yet!

[qccowboy]

Well, I will cast a spell of Resurrection on the dead horse, and beat it some more.

This has been discussed ad nauseam in the past, and there is, as always, no real answer to your question.

There is no "best" notation programme. There is the programme that suits your work habits.

Do you doodle at the keyboard before committing notes to the staff? Then Finale has a tiny advantage there with its "Speedy Entry" method. But other than that, Finale, Sibelius, the end result is the same. Both require work to get a good end result. Different work, but work none the less.

I happen to use Finale and enjoy the ease with which I can make my demos with GPO. I've heard that Sibelius 5 is now considerably easier to use with GPO, so there should be no reason to not use either one, whichever suits your budget and your working method.

I don't use a sequencer, but I suspect that the exact same thing is true of them.

Look at the features you need.

And don't let people tell you "X is better than Y" in a categorical fashion. It's rarely true.

For me, Finale is better. But someone using Sibelius can probably come up with the exact same end result.

Can we put that poor equine back in its grave now?

[amerweb]

Thank you both for your replies! I do not expect to get any composing done without some work and I don't expect anyone else should either! What I was asking is based on what I want to do which product is best suited to my use. I am brand new to this and don't know which one is more suited to which industry one way or the other! I have never tried the Overture demo, but I am going to install it in a moment.

Thank you,
amerweb

[rbowser-]

"...Can we put that poor equine back in its grave now?..."

Well, let's not, because amerweb wasn't asking for people to square off and debate again the unanswerable "which is better" question - he wanted input about what we think he'd could be investigating as he shops.

robmanderson's response about Overture was interesting. I think that's the only major notation program that has a MIDI Controller editing window, like the Piano Roll which is standard in DAWs? It seems to me this Would be a major plus - because the number one problem I hear over and over from notation users is that they feel stuck being unable to directly access MIDI Controllers, which of course are what bring samples and synths to life.

"...I would like to be able to sit down and compose music right away when an idea comes into my head..."

And from that, I take it that you mean hand-inserting notes on staff paper (or virtual paper) is the most comfortable way for you to do that?--as opposed to playing music as you hear it? If that's the case, then it sounds like you need to focus first on getting a notation program.

But if you're a keyboard player and improvise/compose/write music in real time - then clearly you'd feel more productive with a DAW, like I do. And I use Sonar - Home Studio 6 XL to be exact.

I know of at least one very accomplished composer on this Forum who feels perfectly happy using the Staff View in Sonar to insert notes - It's not as if that's an impossibility, by the way.

When it comes to sequencers - Even though I use and trust Sonar, I feel they're all pretty much the same. Your stated needs in a DAW seem modest enough - You could practically throw darts at a sign with all the major brands listed, and be fine with whatever the dart lands on--really.

Which brings me back to the first part of your post - Sonar and Sib have been recommended. Great, if you can afford to get both at the same time - you probably couldn't go wrong. If you can get just one right now - then really think about what your preferred way of working either is or could be.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[amerweb]

Thank you rbrowser!!! That is exactly what I was asking. I have access to a keyboard and play piano. The only reason I didn't mention that is because I am almost sure that all the major notation programs out there can interface with most keyboards and you can just play your music. What I was looking for in a notation program (and again, this is where I am not sure which one is the best) is to also be able to input music with my laptop keyboard while I am travelling, etc... and be able to hear a desent playback of what I wrote. Then I would export to midi and edit it with a midi sequencer. I have used Finale Guitar and I DON'T like the interface AT ALL! I LIKE the Sibelius interface, but I am not quite sure of how well it equates with Finale's Speedy Entry. As to Sonar...does the Home Studio do all that I want to do (create, edit, and make a full orchestral arrangment)? Or should I keep my eyes set on Sonar PE? Also, has anybody tried Motu DP that could give me a pros and cons look at whether I should try it above Sonar (i.e., whether it has more film scoring customizing than Sonar?

Thank you again rbrowser for your post! it was exactly what I was looking for!

~amerweb

[nikolas]

I'm a Finale and Cubase guy. I'd recomend those...

BUT:

TRY THE DEMOS!

Finale, Sibelius, Sonar, all have demos. Many other programs do. Those which don't might have trial versions in stores. Go to a store and see, feel, touch, etc...

I would dare to say that the major players in notation are Finale and Sibelius, with Overture and Notion a bit behind and in sequencing Sonar and cubase with the rest being a bit behind.

But it is personal, highly personal, so... :-/

[marce]

You already have GPO (if not, a good idea is purchase it from geniesoft, it´s $189 and it bundle OvertureSE v3).

The good thing is that you can test most programs by yourself, simply downloading the demos or trials at their webpages.

Be aware, that, most of proggies takes time to learn, and with most of them, you get similar results.

If money is an issue to you, there are very nice tools for cheap, that are good. By example, i use Harmony Assistant for notation $69, and Cakewalk Music Creator, a $30 version of "Sonar" with less features.
Im not claiming they are the best, but for sure you can do a lot with them.

The good thing of Sonar, or Music Creator in my case, is that you can freely compose playing your keyboard, and if needed, you can open the staff view, without the need to export the midi file and open in some dedicated score editor. For composing and guide yourself, is more than enough.
I also have Tracktion 1.6 and Reaper, that are near free, but they dont have any kind of score view, if that is important to you.

If money wasnt an issue to me, i would like to get Samplitude o Sequoia thing. Maybe some day (they have to GaryG in the list of their users! so it must be a good thing. Their way to combine staff view piano roll and controllers view is great)

[fiziwig]

Personally, I use Noteworthy Composer. Shareware $39.00. Works fine with GPO. Use it for straight notation, or add all the MIDI controllers you want. It's got the power for a tiny fraction of the cost of the competition.

http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/

[Jeff Turner]

The only reason I didn't mention that is because I am almost sure that all the major notation programs out there can interface with most keyboards and you can just play your music. Yes you can play your keyboard into a notation program, but the resulting notation will probably need editing before it looks like a normal part because of quantizing issues.


I have used Finale Guitar and I DON'T like the interface AT ALL! I LIKE the Sibelius interface, but I am not quite sure of how well it equates with Finale's Speedy Entry.
As others have said, try the demos. The Finale interface is similiar to Finale Guitar. If you don't like it, that says it all.

But Sibelius doesn't have anything like Finale's Speedy entry. The choice is yours.

Look at Overture also. But be aware that Overture is a one man operation, which has pluses and minuses. On the plus side, he's very good about posting updated versions of his product when he fixes a bug. On the downside, being a one man operation his resources are limited and it's a little hard to keep up with larger notation programs.



because the number one problem I hear over and over from notation users is that they feel stuck being unable to directly access MIDI Controllers, which of course are what bring samples and synths to life.

I think you might be projecting your own preferences here, I don't hear this request from notation users as much as you do. I've only seen it mentioned once or twice on Finale's forum over the years. The majority of Finale users seem quite satisfied with the Human Playback programming of Robert Piechaud. While a simple pencil tool for editing midi data in Finale would be a nice addition, there are many, many other requests from users that far outweigh this one.

JT

[rbowser-]

Hello again, Amerweb - You're getting some great input!

"...As to Sonar...does the Home Studio do all that I want to do (create, edit, and make a full orchestral arrangment)?..."

Absolutely. It's what I use, and I don't feel bereft of tools to work with.

Gary "Fiziwig," as he indicates here on this thread, gets great results with his Noteworthy Composer. The point is well taken that it's not as if you need to spend a lot of money to get set up pretty nicely.

Jeff Turner said, "...I think you might be projecting your own preferences here..." When I was talking about issues notation users seem to have.

Not at all, Jeff, I was just passing on what I often hear on these Forums, not at the Finale Forums. I'm very active here, and what I hear over and over is users feeling cramped about the amount of actual MIDI editing they can do. Many people seem to like the "Human Playback" tool, but others have a preference for being the Human in the playback equation - a sentiment I can understand.

But I intended to just be passing on the kind of post I often see from notation users in general.

I use Sonar because I'm comfortable working in a DAW environement, but I have no prejudice against notation programs - just not much use for one personally.

Amerweb, since you're a keyboardist with a keyboard - It seems to me you'd be happiest with playing and working in a sequencer environment. If it's critical for you to have nice looking hard copies of your scores - then clearly you'd need a notation program. So many circumstances don't call for that though--Depends on what you're up to.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[Michael_uk]

I use Finale and Sonar. I prepare my MIDI files in Finale then import these into Sonar. This way I get the best of both worlds; the best notation program (in my view) to prepare my scores and MIDI files and the best sequencer (in my view) for comprehensive MIDI file editing and performance preparation.

As a matter of interest, I have trialled Sibelius and Finale, and Cubase and Sonar. However, if you dislike the Finale interface then that is that. Having said that, Finale does have a selection of themes and pallets so the interface can be customised to some extent.

As has been said so many times, the best way to discover the one that works for you is to try the demo versions. I would also suggest spending some time in the forums; this can be really enlightening. Another suggestion is to try a search for your question as this has been asked quite a few times and there may be other issues mentioned in previous replies that haven't been said here.

Good luck.

[germancomponist]

I use Cubase 4.1 , and in Cubase you can work with notation too!

Ok, I never had worked with it ;), but I know people who writes and prints their scores with Cubase.

For more information: http://www.steinberg.net/992+M52087573ab0.html (http://www.steinberg.net/992+M52087573ab0.html)

Gunther

[Jerry W.]

While I do not score to film, (dream dream dream), I have had the opportunity to try it out for several film scoring contests. Plus, I still write a lot of orchestral music. I also do demo work as part of being on the Garritan Beta Team. My process is much like yours, in that I always start first with notation.

I use Finale. I love it as a NOTATION program. MIDI editing leaves a LOT to be desired. Now, I like it because I know it very well. It was my very first computer program I ever learned (well, BASIC in 7th Grade doesn't COUNT). I learned it even before learning word processing and other programs). I am very fast at producing nicely notated music (complex or plain).

But - If I want to have it SOUND as good as it looks, (and, let's face it, we all want that), I HAVE to edit the MIDI data. Which opens the need to a Sequencer. (however - I must also concede here that Finale's Human Playback is very nice at getting decent approximations of what your score sounds like. It works very nicely with GPO), but... it is not really for professional results as far as a resulting audio track. IMO

I am in the midst of testing out DP, Logic Studio and Tracktion 3. (I started out in Cubase SX, but switched to Tracktion 1.x because it was so much better on my meager hardware resources and allowed me a lot of power for a very inexpensive price.) It is still my most familiar and favorite DAW to start with. And I would still be using it exclusively were it not for some key compatibility issues I have with it. Tracktion 3 (and 1 or 2 as well) crashes for me when loading ANY Kontakt 2.1 or higher plugins. so it has become nearly useless for me unless I want to work in JUST GPO (K 1.5). So I am learning new DAWs and like what I see. I am leaning towards DP, but Logic still looks and feels so much cooler than DP. So - which DAW will I probably end up with? DP has a slight lead over Logic in my Jerry testing process.

What platform are you on? If Mac, I would highly suggest DP - it handles scoring to film extremely well. (as does Logic). Both are pretty much tops as far aws DAWs in the Mac platform. Both have their fans and detractors. You really need to test them out and see which FEELS the best.

I would also suggest Sibelius if you did not like Finale Guitar. If Overture had half a leg to stand on right now as a viable app for years to come, I would be getting IT too - it's MIDI editing is on par with a lot of DAWs right now.

Anyway. Finale and DP - that is what I use. I have given the reasons I use them.

Wishing you the best of luck in your quest for finding the right fit for YOU.


Jerry

[rpearl]

For the notation side, I'd throw my vote to Sibelius - but honestly, Sibelius, Finale, and Overture ( I think, as I don't have too much experience with it) will give you excellent, excellent printed results. Professional quality, if you work with them long enough. For most of us there is a balance between notation and playback/editing, and depending on which is our stronger suit, well, that's the way we lean.

One small note: an earlier post said that there is no Speedy Entry in Sibelius - there is. Actually, there are a number of ways to enter pitches (as there are in most programs).

Choose one, read the manual(s). Read it again. Go to the online Chat board, ask lots of questions. The programs take some learning - there is no quick foolproof way of getting quality results without work, but then I'm sure you know that.

Good luck with your choices. Let us know how you get on.

[danveach]

You mentioned soundtracks. Finale 2008 does have a new video feature that allows you to sync your music to video. I'm not sure how powerful it is or if it would be useful to you, but at least they've made a start in that direction.

[Skysaw]

I won't compare Sibelius to Finale, since I haven't used Finale since version 1!

But I will tell you that Sibelius 5 is wonderful if you really want a lot of control over your output. I find it very easy to use, and the key shortcuts make entry very fast.

For sequencing, I use Sonar 7 PE, and it's everything you'll ever need, and probably a whole lot more, unless you also do audio recording, mixing, & mastering.

These are my two programs of choice, and each are notoriously bad at doing what the other excels in. If you really want ONE program to do it all, I believe you're making sacrifices in both arenas. Two programs means extra work, but you'll have complete control over both sound and the look of your scores.

Are you on a Mac or a PC? I noticed you were considering both Sonar and DP... the first is PC only and the second is Mac only.

[karvasika]

Hello:
1. Sequencing
2. Notation

...compose music right away when an idea comes into my head (hence the notation program) and I would like a simple yet very complex if I need it midi

1. If you want an innovative and easy-to-use but yet very powerful program for sequencing, I'd recommend Ableton Live. You can do all the possible midi editing stuff with Ableton Live as with all the other DAWs out there when it comes to programming GPO. Live has a very innovative way of making things simple and it's actually even better if you record stuff too.

I've used Cubase and Logic and disliked both of them because of their complexity. I just needed a tool that's powerful but approaches all the things in a new way. For example, one of the best inventions in Ableton Live is to discard the way of thinking a sequencer as a mixing desk when it comes to inserts: all the effects you put to a track are presented as blocks with controls at the bottom of the screen:

http://myskitch.com/juhana/live-example-20071203-173947.jpg

Anyway, the routing possibilities are good, which is very handy when it comes to GPO. You can have multiple automation lines to be able to edit and view the different CC-controls going to a GPO-device.

Another good things about it is an alternate view for the traditional arrangement view: if you think of a song as a series of scenes (verse, chorus, etc), Live give you this kind of view and you can record blocks and move them around for each track so you can build your song on this "sketchpad" and then finish it in the traditional multitrack-view:

http://myskitch.com/juhana/live-example_2-20071203-174320.jpg

Like I said, this is just another way to work: you also find the traditional view there, switchable with TAB-key.

I know you don't usually get Ableton Live's name come up first when people talk about sequencers for pro use, but I can tell I'm a composer student writing scores for orchestra, recording rock music, combining these two areas for film music and I love Ableton Live because of it's good workflow and the ease of getting things started with it. I can get amazing results with it and I love working with it.


2. It depends so much what you want. I've always used Overture and I like it because of the way you can draw curves and program it, but to be honest, it's a work in progress at the moment (at least the mac version). I've been bearing with waiting and bugs for 2 years now and it's going forward but slowly. I'm guessing the company is going through some changes and I really believe in their product. Overture will be fabulous and get it's bugs fixed. If you are on PC, Overture is probably a bit better for you, since mac version is yet unfinished.

I've considered switching to Sibelius a million times, but the reasons I won't are that I believe Overture will eventually have the same capabilities that I so eagerly want to have from Sibelius and Overture ALREADY has very powerful midi editing capabilities that Sibelius DOESN'T have.

Soo, quickly about my setup and how I use these two programs together (on a mac):

I'm running Leopard so I'm using virtual desktops. On the other desktop I have Overture in full screen, on the other I have Ableton Live running and Overture sends the midi data from the orchestras scores to Ableton, where I have GPO set up. So basically Ableton does the VST/AU-hosting because Overture 4 for mac yet can't do it by itself. Also, the benefit of this kind of thing is that when I have the score open, I can do modifications to it whenever I want and not needing to export it to program. Also, I can record Live stuff to Ableton and therefore create modern film scores where the score is played by Overture and sequenced+recorded stuff is being played by Ableton Live. I still have some workflow issues to iron out, but it'll be great.

http://myskitch.com/juhana/my_setup-20071203-175240.jpg

I hope you find which tool suits you the best! And remember, it's not always the one with most users or most features that's the best. I personally want a tool that's elegant, works and performs well, gets the job done, encourages you to work more and is intuitive and that's Live (and hopefully Overture when it's finished).

[Little Red King]

I can only comment on the sequencer aspect:
If cost is the first priority, then it is tough to beat Reaper as a sequencer ( http://www.reaper.fm/ ). It gets the job done, has a non-expiring, non-crippled demo and a non-commercial-use license is 50 USD. This might be a good place to get started because with a non-crippled, non-expiring demo, you will get a very good chance to see if the tool works for you or not without spending anything. If 50 USD is still too much, then buy a copy of "Computer Music" magazine as the cover DVD includes a complete set of software for sequencing and music production.

If cost is not a major consideration, then any of the usual suspects will do a very good job and it is down to how you like to work. This is where checking out demos becomes very important. Unfortunately, a few of the usual suspects (Cubase for one) do not have demos and then things get tough. I ended up in the Cubase camp because of software bundled with a soundcard. After many years I am still with it and find that it covers my needs and matches my workflow preferences. But in the end, despite all the arguments about "my sequencer can beat your sequencer", most of the biggies will get the job done. So again, give the demos a good look over.

[Raymond62]

I don't know. The best of what? The best in making a professional looking score everybody - editors - like? The easiest inputting? The fastest inputting? The hybrid stuff, like Overture (notation and sequencer almost in one program) or Finale?

Before I bought Overture, I tried several other demo's.

Sibelius' demo crippled and my old system hung several times.
Finale (previous demo version) didn't run at all - on my new system with another demo version(?) it ran fairly good, but for me it was a but too difficult to learn.
Noteworthy, a very old demo, drove me crazy;
Lilypond, I even tried this one, but I still have nightmares.In my opinion the best and fastest inputting system has Mozart!!
But it is limited when you want a professional rendering, you have a lot of tweaking to do to make the exported midi ready for Sonar. But man, it is really fast inputting and fairly professional looking scores.

Next comes Overture, though I hate that limited method of inputting notes. There are only two ways, by mouse or by Midi-piano-keyboard. Overture at least has the possibilities to assign the VST instruments to each track/voice, etc. so that you can hear with real instruments what you are doing. It is a hybrid, notation and sequencer in one program.

So, coming from Mozart, I now use Overture. Maybe in the future I'll swithc to Finale (see those great things etLux is making with it)... who knows. But for now, I am quite satisfied, though inputting notes is da....mn..... slow. And not always flawless (when rests are involved in complicated tempi-settings).

Raymond

[amerweb]

WOW!!!!!!!!! Thank you all for you advice! It has been very helpful! To answer a few questions, though...

1. I have tried and uninstalled Reaper (For some reason I don't like it much)
2. I tried Overture and I don't like it
3. I am on a PC and I was not aware that DP only is available on Mac
4. karvasika: Thank you for your long and very helpful post! I like the thought of Ableton Live, but I am not up to that type of pricing right now!

...I am trying the Sonar PE right now, but I am having a time of it interfacing it with GPO. The Home Studio XL is more what I was think, price range, but I was prepared for PE! I couldn't find a link to the Home Studio Demo at first. I am going to look again. I think that I am going to shoot for the Sonar Home Studio XL and Sibelius....but that still may change! I hope I have answered the questions that you all asked! Please feel free to give any more input you have!

Thank you,
amerweb

[amerweb]

Hmmmm....Home Studio XL doesn't seem to have a demo available. Am I missing something? Also, Home Studio XL comes with an LE of GPO can I choose not to install this rbrowser?

Thank you,
amerweb

[rbowser-]

Hello again, amerweb

I think you're right, that there isn't a demo of Home Studio 6 or 6 XL. Well - it's what I'm currently using and I love it. Before that I used HS 4 XL, and before that Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, Cubase LE briefly.

The XL version has extra stuff which I find very worth the extra price - Session Drummer 2 is superb, if you think you'll ever be needing drums. Dimension LE is a great sample player with Lots of options for layering and manipulating all kind of audio files.

You asked if you can choose to not install the Pocket Orchestra - Yes, you can, but it's not large and so I think you may as well install it. I loaded it, and I can see it could come in handy even though I have the full GPO.

GO for it!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[amerweb]

Thank you! I will let you all know how everything goes!

BTW - rbrowser could you give me an idea of how to start a new project do a few notes on the keyboard and connect Sonar to GPO?

Thank you,
amerweb

[karvasika]

4. karvasika: Thank you for your long and very helpful post! I like the thought of Ableton Live, but I am not up to that type of pricing right now!

No probs! Just find a program that inspires you. I guess almost all the sequencers can handle GPO so it's just up to the program you feel most like at home.

[amerweb]

Also, does anybody know if the current version of Sibelius comes with the scan music from your scanner feature (Photoscore, I think?) still?

~amerweb

[rbowser-]

Amerweb, it'd be jumping the gun to start giving you tutorials on how to set up a new project, record, use GPO in Sonar - Get the program and then jump into its good Help file tutorials. All the info is right there in the program.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[amerweb]

rbrowser: Thank you. The reason I was asking was to see if I could get this demo copy working. Being new to both squencing and Sonar I am having a bit of trouble getting a GPO sound off of the midi track I created as a test.

Thank you,
amerweb

[Leaf]

I vote for Finale as the best notation software. I hated computers before i discovered Finale and GPO, and now i love them.:)


But also i think having a mac has helped me to like computers more, no offense to windows but i could never really get used to that world.

[rbowser-]

Oh! You have a demo of one of the Sonar programs? I didn't realize that.

Do look in the Help file, the Tutorials might be in that demo?

--Deep breath - let's see if I can briefly get you going:

--Insert KP2 in the synth rack. Check the option to have all audio tracks available.

--Get the instrument in KP2 that you want to use.

--In your MIDI track, open up the header info and set that track's out put to the correct MIDI channel and audio out of KP2.

Now you'll have the MIDI track with your data, and an audio track through which KP2 can play the instrument you've set up.

There's more - That should get you started. Look at "using soft synths" in the Help file for more info.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[amerweb]

Thank you!

[amerweb]

Well, it has been a long time since I posted, but here is what I have done in the interval. I went the opposite direction from what I first thought I would. I got...

Cubase 4 - I love it! I was able to get $400-500 off the retail of the full version because I had Adobe Audition. I like the lighter interface than the Sonar interface, even though you can probably change Sonar's too. Blue is my color and that was a plus right off, as funny as it may sound! In looking at the options Sonar is indeed nearly even with Cubase and vise-versa. However, in the end Cubase's interface was a little easier to understand than Sonar for me.

Finale Guitar 2003 - I already had this. It was really a VERY hard choice to decide whether to use Finale or Sibelius. I like the Sibelius navigation panel but I like the Finale speedy entry, I like the uncluttered interface in Sibelius but I also like some of the interface options Finale has to offer, and so on and so forth! So....I decided to use what I have for now until I need some other feature that one or the other has and then I will go through it again, I guess.

On top of all that I am setting up a joystick as my expression controller and I will use a discontinued Yamaha P70 digital piano to get the full range of 88 keys with the general feel +/- of a real piano. Any questions would be welcome as to why I chose one feature over another. I would be more than happy to post some screenshots to anyone who is looking and wants to see what the interface is like. Last, but certainly not the least, THANK YOU to all those who help me and gave me opinions. It helped me make a more educated guess in what to go with!

God bless,
amerweb

[amerweb]

Thanks Jon, I'll keep that in mind! :)

God bless,
amerweb

[auri oculus]

Hello I am new to this forum. I purchased finale with GPO. I'm just learning how to use it. Finale does not work with Pro Tools right? So
what production software would be as easy to use as pro tools and
provide a professional 'grade' audio sound. I am also because of some of
the writing i do interested in being able to create loops with slight variations (terry riley, steve reich) using a mix of GPO and synths and drumming. I know I'm beating another dead horse but, why not.
I am new at this and want to get off to a good start. Thanks.:heart:

[raweber]

First, welcome to the forum. Second, you might want to start a new thread for this.

Finally, any of the aforementioned sequencers will get the job done, and all as easily (I think) as Pro Tools. Plus you get much better MIDI and full VST support.

So, for loops, I think that the grandaddy of live software, Abelton Live, is probably still a great bet. More recent versions have brought the MIDI and audio ends of things up to spec with everyone else.

Now, a quick clarifiation - Finale and Pro Tools are two entirely separate programs. You could export MIDI from Finale into Pro Tools, but neither program is optomized for MIDI. You would be getting the worst of both worlds.

That being said, the Finale version of GPO ONLY WORKS IN FINALE. This is important. What I do for instruments that I only have in the Finale version of GPO is get the recording as good as I can in Finale and then export the audio into a DAW (I use Sonar, but any decent DAW will do).

Good luck, and please start a new thread with more questions. We're all very friendly and occasionally helpful here.

[Reegs]

Hi Auri,

You sound a little confused. Let me try to clear things up.

Finale 2008 (and 07 and 06) comes bundled with a 'lite' version of Garritan Instruments. These load and play back through an integrated Kontakt2 Player within Finale. They can only be used in Finale. Other products, such as Sibelius and Sonar's Dimension Synth, also ship with a restricted subset version of GPO.

There is a full version available which retails for approximately $199 which contains the entire 2GB orchestra (more instruments, layers, etc) and its own Kontakt2 Player interface with unrestricted use in Standalone, VST, DXi, AU, and RTAS configurations.

Standalone means you can run the program independently, like you would run Microsoft Word. The Kontakt Player2 interface can accept MIDI connections from a keyboard or any other source and outputs its sounds directly to your soundcard. Good for sketching, auditioning, and some advanced applications.

VST, DXi, AU, and RTAS are plug-in types, for use inside sequencers, such as Sonar, Cubase, Logic, and Pro Tools, and certain notation programs, such as Overture, Sibelius, and Finale*. Plug-ins require the host program to send and receive audio and midi information; they receive all of their information from the host. The advantage to this setup is that the host lets you record directly from the plug-in, mix GPO's output with other plug-ins and audio files you have, and create a final audio track.

The bundled Finale GPO subset uses a modified version of a VST plugin that is restricted to Finale only. DXi is a standard for Windows only, AU is Mac-only, and VST is cross-platform. Pro Tools uses the cross-platform RTAS format.

To answer your question regarding Pro Tools and Finale compatibility: no, they will not work together because they are both hosts. That's not to say that you can't create your composition in Finale, bounce it to a MIDI file, import the MIDI file in Pro Tools, load up the full GPO in RTAS form, and do some further tweaking and audio editing there, however. That's actually a common practice.

If you're new to the computer audio scene, I recommend you start out slow. Build up your skills with Finale and the bundled set first. On the Listening Room here you'll find many users with only that set up producing wonderful pieces (check out the human playback feature!). Once you get the hang of that, you might consider getting the full version of GPO, which will expand you palette inside Finale and let you use GPO in the world of sequencers. Start with an entry-level sequencer. Check out Reaper, Sonar Home Studio, Cubase Essential, Logic Express, or Pro Tools M or LE**. All of these sequencers will give you the ability to create loops.***

Hope this helps,

Reegs



*Native Instruments-powered programs only
**Pro Tools M-Powered and LE have specific hardware requirements.
***Creation of Acidized or Rex loops may require additional components or programs.

[Gustov Varbirski]

I haven't read all the replies on this thread, so please forgive me if I'm being repetitious.

I think it depends on how much you want to do with the apps, and how much investment of learning time you're prepared to make. I use Finale and Digital Performer. I really like both of them and am not at all tempted to change to something else. But be advised that both of them, especially DP, have pretty steep learning curves at the beginning. And of course the more you learn about them the more you can do. I have found that there's precious little that you can't do in Finale, notation-wise. You just have to know how to go about it. Both have their problems and glitches, but that's probably true of all programs to some extent or another.

Thought I'd throw in my two dollars worth (inflation, you know. :) )

[auri oculus]

Hello again and thank you all for your input. Thanks Reegs for the info about Finale and other software programs. And I will start out slow and work with what I have right now. I am really new to all of this. It used to be that I would write a piece and then arrange to have it read by a local college wind ensemble. That all takes a lot of time and energy.
And at times a lot of convincing to get it read. With this technology I can work on my writing skills and experiment with tonal expressions without embarassing myself too much.

I will start a new thread.. but

some of these acronymes???
DAW = digital audio workstation?
DXi = i have no idea (I use windows xp)
VST = i have no idea
plug ins? throw out a metaphor

off to the new thread.
thank you all.

[Jaybee]

To reiterate: you've received a lot of good and well-intentioned advice in this thread. Just remember that each user will have his/her own personal bias based on their personal experiences with the program they are describing and/or recommending. I would suggest that you take a hard look at the feature set of each program as described on their company's web site. See if what you need is listed and, if so, d/l the demo, if there is one available, and give it a test run. I guess what I'm saying is, if Sonar Home Studio will suffice, don't buy Sonar PE. No only will you save a lot of money but you won't be confused with features which you might never use. Later, if you should decide you need features of the PE edition, there is an easy and affordable upgrade path. Use the same approach for your notation program. Compare the feature sets and buy what you need. You will find very dedicated users of every platform, all of whom will be more than happy to try and convert you to their platform. However, decide what you need because that's what you will be happiest with. And, we'll all be more than glad to help you along the way once you have your tools.

BTW, my use of Sonar was simply as an example. Most every main sequencer today is excellent - the differences lie mainly in the feature sets and work flow.

Welcome to the club.

[Reegs]

DAW = digital audio workstation?
Yep!


DXi = i have no idea (I use windows xp)
VST = i have no idea
plug ins? throw out a metaphor

DXi - DirectX Instrument. Developed to be optimized for Windows programs. Its use is actually fading out from the more widely-adopted and cross-platform Virtual Studio Technology (VST), developed by Steinberg.

Plug-ins: Think of them as being more ingredients in a sauce for an entree. They add variety and taste, but require the main course to work. Plug-ins are effects and sound varieties that you can use with your DAW to get more out of your projects. More sounds, more and better mixing, etc.

[auri oculus]

Thanks! Reegs. :)