Using a real recorder to control GPO: a video using Camtasia

[marce]

Hi friends. I just made a little video of my screen that maybe someone can found usefull.
Is a little test about how to control GPO, or any other sampler, using a real instrument (or your voice, if you wish).
Basicly, what you will see and hear in the video, is, by one side, me playing a soprano recorder with a microphone (just playing, nothing elaborated). Then, an autotune plugin analyze the audio and send the midi notes to KP2. By other side, another freebie plugin, analyze the amplitude of the audio sygnal, and send it as CC#1 (or any other you wish).
The video is played in realtime (Violin and recorder ar hard panned to left and right to easily hear them) but you can do this recording first the audio, and then translating. You can use any instrument you wish to make this experiment, even your voice. Recorder tones are easy to recognize by the autotune plugin, and recorder are easy to play, so is a good choice.
Well, is not that i will switch to this input mode, but i believe it can be usefull when i want to make some solo part very expressive and dont want to deal with the modwheel.

Well, here is the video:
http://www.stashbox.org/57214/midi%20controller.wmv




The video was made with the Camtasia free version i posted before, really, i like that program very much, is very usefull.
The program i used is Reaper, and the included autotune plugin called "Reatune". It have very nice routing possibilities of the midi, so it was usefull.
The plugin that converts the amplitude to CC# is a freebie called "Soma Enveloper"
I believe that with some other autotune plugin that sends midi and some routing inside your host, it is possible to do, but dont know.

[rbowser-]

Hi, marce

You are one very clever person! - It's amazing that you've come up with a way to make all this work without using costly programs designed specifically for it.

I watched the video several times to be sure I understood everything you were showing us. It's probably the limitation of my online computer that visual playback was jerky, but I still got the idea.

You're right, that this could be a way to develop nicely expressive solo lines, resulting in the kind of thing people get using wind controllers - which are expensive.

Your second file, the .avi, is of a totally different piece of music - not the recorder/violin demo. You need to check on that.

Thank you so much - I think I'll Have to be experimenting with this!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[marce]

Thanks Randy! I removed the second link. I believe that the next time i made some screen capture i will try to use some standard size (like 640x480)

[germancomponist]

Ha, that`s very cool and interesting!

[RustyCrook]

Well done, marce! You've given us all much to think about.

[Hannes_F]

Very well done, cool and inspiring. Thank you marce!

[etLux]

Way cool, Marce!

There's a lot of potential in this for tutorials and how-to's!

My best,



David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

[rbowser-]

Hey, Marce - I've been experimenting this afternoon, and have Part of your set up working, but not all of it. I hope you can help me out.

I've had Reaper for awhile, so it was easy to open it up and find the "Reatime" plugin. Great! - I quickly set up a track with Reatime and a mike. I set up another track for KP2 and put in a JABB Sax.

Once I had track 2 receiving audio from track 1, INSTANt success - The Melodica I was playing in front of the mike was controlling the Sax. Very cool. It worked live or with a recorded track.

My hitch is that I found and installed the Soma Enveloper, and it's in Reaper's VST list, but no matter where I put it in the chain of either track, it's not effecting the Sax's volume.

?

I literally tried the Enveloper in every position I could think of - ahead, behind Reatime, in track two also every position--?

Help me out if you can. I looked at the video again, but you have your Reaper laid out in a customized way that I can't quite figure out. I'm just using the default view - but that shouldn't matter. I was just hoping to see where you had the Enveloper, but you have it open in its own window and I can't tell where it is in the chain.

?

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[marce]

Hey, Marce

My hitch is that I found and installed the Soma Enveloper, and it's in Reaper's VST list, but no matter where I put it in the chain of either track, it's not effecting the Sax's volume.

?

I literally tried the Enveloper in every position I could think of - ahead, behind Reatime, in track two also every position--?

Help me out if you can. I looked at the video again, but you have your Reaper laid out in a customized way that I can't quite figure out. I'm just using the default view - but that shouldn't matter. I was just hoping to see where you had the Enveloper, but you have it open in its own window and I can't tell where it is in the chain.

?

Randy B.
(rbowser)

Hi Randy. You are right, the purpose of the video is not an step-by-step, and some things are not so obvious.
Im not an user of Reaper, so maybe is there a easier way, but i dont know. Here is what i do:

-I create a track that receives the "audio-in" signal, and in the FX chain have the "Reatune" plugin.

-Another track that receives the "audio-in" signal, and in the FX chain have the "soma enveloper" plugin (i dont put it in the first track, because Reatune filter, appear to be, the midi CCs it send)

-Another track that dont receive audio, and in the FX chain have KP2.

NOW,
theorically you can route the first two tracks to the third one inside Reaper, but it dont work, or i dont figure how.
SO
here comes the complicated (not much) thing:
-You need to have installed the MidiMaple drivers (or midiyoke)
-In the Reaper setup, Midi devices OUT, enable MidiMaple 1 and MidiMaple 2.
-In the Reaper setup, Midi devices IN, enable MidiMaple 3
NOW
You need connect MidiMaple 1 and 2 OUT to MidiMaple 3, that can be done with an utility called "MidiOX" (http://www.midiox.com/).

NOW:
-Open the I/O setup of your first track. Select that it output to Midi hardware MidiMaple 1
-Open the I/O setup of your second track. Select that it output to Midi hardware MidiMaple 2
-Right Click on the vumeter of your third track. Select "Midi In" MidiMaple 3 as input.

NOW
it must work.....


Yep, it is a little complex. Im looking a easier way to route thing inside the host, without the help of midimaple drivers. If i found the way, i will let you know.

Get fun ;)

[rbowser-]

Thanks for the reply, Marce

OK - The ingredient I was missing was your use of MidiMaple. Hmmmmm.

I want to keep poking around to see if it can all be done inside the host - I'm not familiar with Reaper either. But I do see that when you add FX, you're creating a chain through which signals pass. I'm not positive you need three separate channels to do all this.

It's just mysterious to me why this Enveloper isn't doing anything when a signal is directed through it.

There's a mixing of audio and MIDI signals going on here, that's part of the complication. Maybe another plugin is needed, like one I've used once or twice in Sonar where MIDI and Audio data can co-exist on a channel. Hmmm.

I was disappointed that the Reatune plugin can't be taken out of Reaper apparently. I went to their Forum and people were asking for that to be available--Because I'd rather be trying all this in Sonar which I'm familiar with.

BUT hey - I didn't actually look for myself to see if Reatime shows up in Sonar's VST list or not. I should at least check.

I'll do the routing through MidiMaple thing if I have to, - I think it must be possible to simply this though--?

THanks---I'll be tinkering more with this!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[marce]

Hi Randy. Forgot about MidiMaple, i found the way to route things internally. (i was doing the internal routing in the right way, but with an older reaper version)

If you wish to see it by yourself, i upload the entire reaper project here:

http://www.stashbox.org/57430/Demo-midi-controller.zip (Fixed link)

Just explore it, and it will point the how-to easily.



About the reatune, is a pitty it´s unavailable like an standard vst plugin, to use with any host, but thinking about it, i believe is a kind of promotion of the developer of Reaper. ("if you like it, you need to use reaper")
I know about another autotune freebie plugin (Gsnap) but it only receives midi and dont send it...

About the chain, i guess that the ideal thing would be that Reatune receive the audio signal, thru pass it adding the midi signal, and then that the Soma enveloper receives the audio and midi, add the midi CC# and then pass thru the audio and midi... But in some point this is broken, but it works using them in diffrent channels.

[rbowser-]

Hey, thank you very much for the demo file, Marce -

NOTE: At first I got a "file not found" error message, but was able to save the zip after deleting everything after the word "zip."

I'll go take a look - It's great that you figured out a way to do this all inside Reaper, I'm curious to see what you came up with when I open the file.

SOmething that is cool about Reaper is that it can be hooked up to Sonar as a Rewire application. I've never tried that, but maybe that will be a convenient way to have Reaper's functions available while I have Sonar open.

I'll let you know how it goes!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[rbowser-]

Very mysterious - I've spent 1 1/2 hours this morning trying to get it all to work, but with no success.

Your project file opened fine, Marce, AND it worked. When I open KP2, I see its Mod Wheel moving with the playback as it should.

I made note of every tiny setting in your project - But when I duplicate that in mine, the Mod Wheel doesn't move.

??

I noticed that you have Two audio tracks to drive KP2. OK, I thought we were working with just one. Why is one labeled Trumpet and the other one Flute? Aren't they duplicates of the same audio file?

I duped my test recording so I could have two audio files also--Didn't help.

I also noticed you had another plugin in your first track, a volume plugin from Reaper, so I inserted that also.

You're on a Mac - These are Ogg files. - Maybe this set up doesn't work on Windows? -- But that doesn't make sense, because your project IS working on my machine. Maybe there are more plugins involved that I'm not seeing--tucked away somewhere?

I really appreciate you trying to help me and the rest of us figure this out - But I have to stop putting more time into it for now.

Maybe someone else can help untangle things. I'm at a dead end here.

Hummmm. :(

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[marce]

I made note of every tiny setting in your project - But when I duplicate that in mine, the Mod Wheel doesn't move.

??

Right click on the vumeter AND the speaker icon at the left of it, and be sure that there you are monitoring the same thing (I dont remember just now, im not at home, but you need to choose to "monitor" the right thing, look in the file i uploaded what is checked) It do the trick for me after try several times.. Is not so obvious thing, and possibly you are not duplicating this setting. Be sure you are using the last version of the reaper proggie.
Also, duplicate the I/O settings of each track exactly.
If not luck, after all, you can delete the waveforms, and use this empty track i uploaded like template. But i know you, you want to understand what is going. Good!





I noticed that you have Two audio tracks to drive KP2. OK, I thought we were working with just one. Why is one labeled Trumpet and the other one Flute? Aren't they duplicates of the same audio file?

Ignore the labelings, they must say flute both. Im using Two tracks because, for some reason, "Soma enveloper" and "Reatune" cant be in the same chain, so i use one track for detect the pitch, and other track to detect the amplitude. Then i send both midi signals to the third track. Both tracks must have the same input (a file or an "audio-in" signal)



I also noticed you had another plugin in your first track, a volume plugin from Reaper, so I inserted that also.

The purpose of it is to avoid that the audio file become heard instead using the "mute" button, you can not load it, and still things must work.


You're on a Mac - These are Ogg files. -
No, im on windows, just encoded to ogg, to save file space.



I really appreciate you trying to help me and the rest of us figure this out - But I have to stop putting more time into it for now.

Well, is not exactly a "Ready to use" thing. The ideal situation would be a single plugin that just do the work. But no one is giving that for free, still. :(
The ideal program for this kind of routing would be energyxt, because you visually see where are going the signal, but there you dont have Reatune.
Sorry my english is not the best, i would like to explain better.

[rbowser-]

Hello again, Marce

Your new message inspired me to fire up the computer and try once again - You have explained everything very well, so don't worry about your English.

Here's what I think - that my copy of the Soma Enveloper is faulty. Because I have All settings precisely the same in my test file as they are in your demo, but it still doesn't work.

I should try downloading Enveloper again and re-installing it. It's the only thing left for me to try!

If I get this going one of these days, I'll let you know!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[rbowser-]

I figured out what the problem is - In your demo, Marce, the Soma Enveloper is shown as a VSTi - it's designated as an instrument. In my project, the only available version of my Enveloper download was the DX-VST version.

I took out Enveloper and have unzipped, installed, un-installed, unzipped it again and again --sometimes only in Cakewalk's VST folder, sometimes only in Reaper's folder - But no matter what I do, I can't get Reaper to see it as a VSTi. In fact, this last time, I can't get Reaper to see it at all.

SO, if I want to play with the set up you came up with, I will have to use your demo as a template, deleting the tracks and using the tracks you have - because the instance of Soma you have in that demo is the VSTi version which makes it work.

BUT - Have you tried recording a MIDI track with this output? - I don't have time to try more today - But it seems like the MIDI data could be recorded in yet another track? - That's the way this would be most useful, so further MIDI editing could be done - pitch bend and etc.

Whew - I REally got sucked into that - omigosh, I've eaten up half the day!

Thanks again - Any more info re: above, let me know.

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[germancomponist]

Randy,

I am very excited about to hear your first Stradivari-Solo, what you have sung. :D ;) *()

[marce]

Yes Randy, the midi data can be recorder for editing later. Sorry the long time you put in this.
Maybe you can disable DX plugins in reaper and there is other option that disable the scanning and force reaper to load any plugin anyway. Not at home, when i investigate again, i will post.

But, not missing the point, dont would be great if someone would made a single plugin that allow everybody to play samplers with real instruments?

[rbowser-]

Hello again, Marce

Don't feel bad that I spent so much time today - Sure I got frustrated, but I was just Determined to get this working.

And guess what? I DID GET IT WORKING---PROBLEM SOLVED! YAaaah!

I came back to it fresh tonight, and instantly realized that I could open your project, go to your instance of Soma Enveloper, right click and Copy it - Then after closing your demo, I opened my test project, went to that second track's effects page and pasted your version of Soma in.

Works! - Now, it's strange that I don't have a working copy of Soma in any of my VST folders now - But, when I want to do this acoustic to MIDI recording for a project, that's what I'll do - just copy and paste it in!

It was great to finally hear the Sax responding to the volume changes on my Melodica recording. It is really smooth! - and the note tracking with Reatune is perfect also.

OK---NOw - I just spent a few minutes with it, but couldn't see how to record the MIDI data. I set up a track, pointed the first two tracks to it and vice versa - set it to record MIDI, but nothing happened when I set the project in motion - Well, I did get a MIDI file, but it was empty.

So, Master Marce - perhaps you could let me know how to do That. I really don't like using Reaper - something about the way you have to work with it annoys me. AND what's the deal that you can't close a project? You have to just load a new one to replace another? And so when you close the program - the project stays open? I'm missing something there I guess. And you can't minimize the program --when it's up there it's UP there. I tried to use it as a Rewire in Sonar - no way I could see to shrink it down out of the way. - ?

But I want to record the output of this acoustic to MIDI recording process, so that I can bring the MIDI data into Sonar where I can do more work with it.

This is great though--Really fun that I have it going now!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[Leaf]

Pretty cool, i'll have to give this a try. Thanks Marce and Randy!

[rbowser-]

----it's me again. I got the MIDI to record --Duh me. You have to set Two parameters in the menu for recording MIDI, got it -There. Now I have it all!

I noticed for the first time, now that I have a MIDI file of the output to look at, that the velocities are all 127. Well, so that'll be the first thing to edit away at. No problem.

But it's still an interesting alternative for laying in some lead lines in a project - by singing, or playing whatever's at hand - like the old Melodica I used. The tracking is accurate, and the Soma Enveloper makes Perfectly detailed controller slopes from the acoustic signal. Great!

Thanks again, Marce!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[marce]

Hello again, Marce


OK---NOw - I just spent a few minutes with it, but couldn't see how to record the MIDI data. I set up a track, pointed the first two tracks to it and vice versa - set it to record MIDI, but nothing happened when I set the project in motion - Well, I did get a MIDI file, but it was empty.

But I want to record the output of this acoustic to MIDI recording process, so that I can bring the MIDI data into Sonar where I can do more work with it.

This is great though--Really fun that I have it going now!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

Hi Randy, good you have it working. The bad thing is that i dont internet at home, so im writing what i remember.
I made the test of Midi Recording when i used the midi maples drivers, i will test with the internal routing and let you know.
BUT, since you prefer to work in sonar, me too, i use cakewalk music creator, that is similar, but less powerfull, maybe you can use Reaper for send the midi data (the two first tracks) and Sonar instead of the third track (where you put GPO, JABB or other sampler) to receive the midi data and record it.
But in this case you will need the MidiMaple drivers for make the routing, like i mentioned in the first solution, and remember that reaper and Sonar will need to have diffrent drivers, since ASIO cant be shared between application. (Edit: oh, maybe rewire can do the trick)
If not, i will see at home how to record midi data inside Reaper and export it.

[rbowser-]

Here we are again, Marce!

So I did see how to right click and arm a new track to record the MIDI data from the two tracks with data which we're using for this set up. I have that figured out.

Now, I think the easiest thing to do would be to import the resulting MIDI track/file into Sonar for more editing.

But I've looked and looked and cannot find where Reaper keeps the MIDI files for a project. They don't seem visible in any of Reaper's program files. Maybe they're not kept as separate entities from a project?

If I could find an Export function, then I could export a MIDI file, but can't find that.

I've looked through the online Reaper manual, but couldn't find answers to those questions.

Reaper can be used as a Rewire device in Sonar, but as I said, that doesn't seem practical because Reaper takes over the screen and I can't see how to minimize it so I can get to work inside Sonar. See what I mean? If I could minimize Reaper as a Rewire device, then I should be able to play tracks for recording into Sonar.

Right now, the basic problem is that I can't figure out how to get work done in Reaper to be moved into another application.

There Has to be a way though!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[rbowser-]

I FIGURED IT OUT!


Isn't it amusing - How I keep asking questions, then I turn right around and discover my own answers? :D

Reaper has some unique ways of doing things I'm accustomed to doing other ways. It's true of all Audio/MIDI recording programs - there's a learning curve involved in figuring any of them out. So, my lack of comfort with Reaper is mostly due to lack of familiarity. I know a lot of people use it and love it, so I make no judgement calls about the program itself.

--I figured out the remaining problems I was having with making Marce's clever audio-to-MIDI procedure work.--

In Reaper, I looked more under Preferences, the place where a lot of important program setting up is accomplished in all programs, naturally.

I found something to uncheck - automatically loading the most recent project on start up of Reaper. Yes Thank you! - Now I'm not forced to have something open that I may not want to open. I'm saying that the default is for your previous project to come up when you open Reaper.

I fished around for MIDI preferences, and found that I had a choice to not have MIDI clips in a project be "objects" but .mid files themselves. That isn't the recommended procedure, but now that I've changed that setting - when I go to the project file inside the master Reaper program folder, I can see the .mid files that I want to bring into my preferred DAW, Sonar.

Ta Da! - Now I can set up the tracks and plugins in Reaper for doing the audio-to-MIDI magic, as explained by Marce, then I can bring the resulting MIDI track into Sonar for more editing. I could do the editing in Reaper, but I'd just rather use my DAW of choice.

If there was a handy Export function for MIDI in Reaper, that would accomplish the same thing - But I never did find that. Doesn't matter. What I've described works perfectly - Having the project use .mid files which are visible in the project folder.

The first and most crucial bit of editing to do on MIDI tracks generated this way is to work on the velocity values. All notes come out at 127. By taking a look at the relative value of cc1 volume data at any given moment in a track, appropriate new velocity values can be found and easily changed in a MIDI editor, like a Piano Roll View.

Then of course, using Garritan libraries, I'll add Var 1 and 2 of I want, do Pitch Bend work, Aftertouch work, cc64 Legato work - etc.

But the test MIDI track I just now opened up in Sonar, the one generated from me playing a Melodica into a mike, which is now driving a JABB Sax - it sounds great. Nice, smooth, cc1 values which are exactly like what would be generated by a MIDI wind controller. And the note values are perfectly tracking. It's great! It'll just sound even greater after more MIDI controller editing.

To me, this is now an excellent alternate way of developing some lead instrument lines in projects. I look forward to using it all in a full project.

Marce, thank you once again. I think I've finally caught up in my lessons. You were a great teacher, thanks!

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[marce]

Good you are done with that Randy! Hope it become usefull to you making great music (btw, your track at the garritan xmas cd is very nice and orignal)


(If you want to make things more complex, making some more routing, you can also play the pedal of your midi keyboard while playing the melodica, so you can switch to legato in realtime, and not with mouse drawing. That need some midi routing to the sampler track)

[marce]

Good you are done with that Randy! Hope it become usefull to you making great music (btw, your track at the garritan xmas cd is very nice and orignal)


(If you want to make things more complex, making some more routing, you can also play the pedal of your midi keyboard while playing the melodica, so you can switch to legato in realtime, and not with mouse drawing. That need some midi routing to the sampler track)

And if you are curious enough, here are a bunch of "Midi-to-audio" plugins. I will investigate them, to see how they work, maybe there is something easier in them:

http://www.midiplugins.com/default.aspx (sort them by type)

[Leaf]

Has anyone tried this using a flute made out of a carrot?

[marce]

I have made some progress, and i found, thanks to a guy at kvraudio, that USINE free is a powerfull program that can do all that, and is easy to connect it to Cakewalk and using them at same time.

[rbowser-]

So, Marce - Are you saying this other plugin, USINE does everything we had going with the two plugins working together?---

Randy B.
(rbowser)

[germancomponist]

So, Marce - Are you saying this other plugin, USINE does everything we had going with the two plugins working together?---

Randy B.
(rbowser)

Hi Randy,

well, this machine can do many many things more ... :)

Look here: http://www.sensomusic.com/news/

Gunther

[marce]

So, Marce - Are you saying this other plugin, USINE does everything we had going with the two plugins working together?---

Randy B.
(rbowser)

Well, IT`S NOT A PLUGIN, yet... appear it will become a VST program in something like a month. By now, is an standalone program, that can be connected to the midi-in of cakewalk, and record midi tracks inside of cake or any other host.. But yes, appear it can do all, but is a little complex program. Im learning it, so when have it working well, i will post.

I tryed two other "all in one" audio to midi plugins: one called "Midifier" and other one called "The extractor". Both are commercial, not expensive, and they do all, (extract midi notes, send CCs messages, send pitch bend) etc. The idea of them is great, BUT their engine to detect the pitch is not so great like Reatune or the Usine proggie, and that part is basic for this kind of thing become useable.