Pedal Steel Guitar

[otmerhorn]

For some time now, I have been trying to find a way to create a believable pedal steel guitar sound for the computer ... I did some files using Finale and tweaked some of the midi sounds ... never did like the result ... just wasn't believable ....

ANYWAY! ... I just upgraded Band In A Box to it's 2008 version (The one I had been used to was about 7 or 8 years old) ... And much to my surprise, there was a pedal steel guitar included with real sound ...

Has anyone found another program that will emulate the pedal steel or has BIAB scooped the field?

Ott

[Pingu]

There was once an Akai library called 'Whole Lotta Country Goin On' which had a steel pedal guitar. But it was back in the day when sampler memory was at a premium, so it wasn't the most detailed set of samples in the world.

[Yossarian]

Wavelore is working on a pedal steel library in GVI format. You can hear it at the end of this video from AES:

www.gearwire.com/tascam-gigastudioiv-parttwo.html

I haven't seen any release date for it yet.

/Yoss

[tradivoro]

Yeah, I gotta tell you, bang for the buck, the biab pedal steel is one of the most versatile things out there... Just generate enough choruses and then pick and choose the phrases you like the best...

[Jeff4h]

you people cant be serious. THis pedal steel sounds terrible. Maybe most of you havent really heard one. I cant believe anyone would use this for anything. It sounds like something off the old roland sound canvas. The bending effects are nice but the sound is pitiful and I do mean pituful. Maybe it is because I record great pedal steel players quite often but this is unusable in my opinion. THe acoustic bass on the demo is knocked out good though

[otmerhorn]

I guess in a few years (if we're still around ... I am 68), we will all laugh at the primitive sounds we are creating synthetically today ... but we have to start somewhere.

I was just thrilled that someone had finally created a program with a pedal steel. I loved Weldon Myrick (sp?) on the Real McCoy album of years ago ... my wife sings with a country "twang" and I create some trax for her ... I even did one for myself using the pedal steel (although I used strings from another program) from BIAB.

You guys who are doing it ... keep up the good work in this new field .... I for one appreciate it ...

Lest I forget ... Gary ... Thanks!

Ott

[belbin]

I don't know the band in a box one, but the wavelore PS's strength is that it is not lick-based. The sound on the video suffers from the expected "trade-show-floor-syndrome", as well as a host of other issues, not the least of which being that Jeff is not exactly playing idiomatic PS phrases. The version he's playing is also a limited version, as much as I could get together for demo at AES.

This thing will be able to do a ridiculous amount of lick-crafting (and in realtime-to the extent that that is possible with a fake pedal steel), and will include a variety of convolution based amp models-all optional, so you can process it however you want. Don't worry about tone-completely flexible!

I've been keeping quiet on this one while working on it, but I can't resist engaging in discussion if and when it comes up.

Keep your eye out for more news on this one from NAMM.

And thanks for the mention, Yoss :)

Belbin (aka Wavelore Guy)

[Jeff4h]

you know i hope they nail it I just dont see it happening from what I heard. I am impressed with the playabity of the licks but the tone. There is so much more to a pedal steel than bending a lick, the player is always sliding into notes, adjusting the speed of their vibrato. Plus the posistion of the chords. you can play a chord in the first posistion on strings 3 4 and 5 and go up a octave and play the exact same notes on string 4 5 and 6. This is another thing that will make it hard to copy. YOu have this same problem on guitar but not to this degree. The only reasonable attempt I have heard to do steel on a keyboard was years ago. A player named Jim Cox had one of those little vinal records in key board magazine. He played shenendoah and even being a steel player I was impressed. He did it on of all things a prophet 5 I think was the exact model. Maybe samples are not the way to go maybe modeling would do better. If you could hear this it was head and shoulders above this. Keep up the good work maybe you will get there I applaud you for trying but I was just being honest about what I heard

[tradivoro]

It's not supposed ot sound exactly like a pedal steel... But used judiciously in a mix, it will pass, as long as it's not meant to be an album of solo instrumental pedal steel... It's like saying that Chris Hein guitars don't sound like a Taylor recorded with a neumann mike in the studio... Used judiciously, sampled guitar will work in a mix...


you people cant be serious. THis pedal steel sounds terrible. Maybe most of you havent really heard one. I cant believe anyone would use this for anything. It sounds like something off the old roland sound canvas. The bending effects are nice but the sound is pitiful and I do mean pituful. Maybe it is because I record great pedal steel players quite often but this is unusable in my opinion. THe acoustic bass on the demo is knocked out good though

[Chris Hein]

I don't know much about pedal steel guitar, but is'nt it all about pitch?
If you don't want to go with phrases, I think it could be fun to use a
ribbon controller to simulate a pedal steel with a guitar sample.
Here is my old trombone video that shows a ribbon controller just changing pitch:
http://www.chrishein.net/sl_seiten/sl_seiten_neu/sl_demossite_chh_video.htm

I mean, the pitch manipulaton technique is pretty close to a pedal steel,
using the left hand to change the pitch.
You just have to set the guitar sample to a pitch of five or seven semitones.
I used seven semitones for the trombone.

But when it comes to chords, its hard to simulate the pedals.
It may be possible if you use different tracks.
I would copy a single note track with its pitch information,
use the same sound on a second and third track (which does not cost extra ram in K2)
and edit the note and pitch data on these track.
A flexible two string bending could be done by playing one note with pitchbend
and use a static note on a second track.

Chris Hein

[fizbin]

One of the many difficulties in emulating pedal steel is that the pedals can bend a subset of the entire set of strings and at different intervals. With MIDI the way it is, you kind of need to set up a few different instances of the instrument on different MIDI tracks to perform this.

[belbin]

.... Plus the posistion of the chords. you can play a chord in the first posistion on strings 3 4 and 5 and go up a octave and play the exact same notes on string 4 5 and 6.

I appreciate your honesty; Nothing wrong with critical feedback, especialy from someone experienced with the instrument.

There will be position control; all strings sampled for their entire lengths, with the ability to tell the sampler which position you want to play in, which will distribute the strings to the correct notes. Again, this video demo is of a very early version of the product, and no position control is mentioned or employed.

I'll refrain from blathering on about this for now, for the main reason that Waveore is not a current advertising client of NS, but also that I didn't plan on discussing the feature set this early...much to do yet. Rest assured, I've done my homework.

I'd appreciate pm's for specific inquiries, so as not to pollute the airways here. There will be plenty of public discourse as of pre-release announcements.

Appreciate everyone's interest, though :)

Best,
Belbin

[scope4live]

A keybed w/ Poly After Touch would help immensely.

I used 2 and 3 instances at gigs to attempt a live Pedal Steel back in the day, and had to have 2 tracks for the bends played back via a hardware sequencer, while I performed the parts I could emulate using a Kurzweil Ribbon controller and a clean guitar sample library.

It worked well, but requirred multiple instances.

After hearing and buying Belbins GVI based American Zither, and seeing it's abilities w/ iMIDI, I have no doubt he will have a hot product. His recording quality is superb, no noise during sample fade-outs, and pristine character as well. I am sure that this Dog Will Hunt.

I am thinking that a dual instance of it would be needed still. But Belbin's humble attitude is most refreshing. He didn't brag at all about the Zither, and that is the best GVI library to date!! Belbin is a fierce warrioir w/ large Cahones. No other developers have even tried this immense task. I grow weary of the same old crap and the Ultimate this, and Ultimate that. Just the words Pedal Steel and his name by it are all I need to see.


SO IT SHALL BE WRITTEN, SO IT SHALL BE DONE......Yul Brennar, Exodus...1956.

[belbin]

All the polyphonic bending capabilities will be built into the Wavelore PS, including the ability to bend various pitches in parallel, similar, and even contrary motion. You can play all ten strings, and bend just the ones you want, including, but not limited to the bending capabilities of the real thing. This can all happen on a single MIDI channel, believe it or not :)

The only things I've had difficulty with are emulating cabinet flex (when the strings slacken or tighten ever-so-slightly on account of increased tension due to bending), and angled slides. There will be some kind of solution for these, but nothing terribly thorough. The meat and potatoes of it are position control and polyphonic bending...the bending is demonstrated in a basic manner on the video, but not nearly to the extent to which the commercial product will be capable of, and, as I said, the position control has been implemented since then. Another thing not mentioned yet are the damping methods; we recorded/programmed two types of release, those being damping with the pick and with the palm. These are switchable in realtime, optional, delete-able (in case you're of the school that release samples are disposable or optional), and also use 8-way round robin. There are also a bunch of open and artificial harmonics with the same bend/slide capabilities.

I'm looking foreward to posting some demos when available. I think this product will really bring something new to the table.

Happy New Year to all,
Belbin

[raweber]

Here is my old trombone video that shows a ribbon controller just changing pitch:
http://www.chrishein.net/sl_seiten/sl_seiten_neu/sl_demossite_chh_video.htm


Chris - not to pull this thread too far off topic, but what controller keyboard are you using in that video with the ribbon that spans the whole keyboard?

[Jeff4h]

Belbin,

It appears you have indeed done your homework and Im impressed. Cabnet flex is something steel guitar manufactures are constantly trying to get out of their guitars. You mentioned angled slants. That is something that is practicly non existant in steel guitar. I bet there are world class players that never do one. If you havent already I would try and get a copy of the sound sheet I mentioned of Jim Cox from Keyboard magazine. . I was very impressed. I understand Jim is still playing in the LA area. Just my two cents if you could capture that tone with the techniques you have developed you would really have something. I have recorded and worked with some of the best players in the world like Jimmie Crawford, John Hughey, Doug Journagan, Jack Smith, Russ Hicks, so perhaps I was a little critical of what you are trying to accomplish. I was impressed with a lot of the things you did and think you are on the verge of something really good.

[Chris Hein]

Chris - not to pull this thread too far off topic, but what controller keyboard are you using in that video with the ribbon that spans the whole keyboard?
The keyboard is a Oberheim MC3000
The ribbon is the R2M, a separate unit made by Doepfer:
http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm

Chris Hein

[otmerhorn]

I think you really need to take a listen to the newest (2008) Band In A Box ... I admit, it is limited as far as range ... but the "pedal" is very good ...

Ott

[alanb]

The keyboard is a Oberheim MC3000
The ribbon is the R2M, a separate unit made by Doepfer:
http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm Very cool.

And certainly cheaper than an ondes martenot (or, as Oskar Sala would have pointed out when alive, a Trautonium)...

.

[Wafflemaster]

The ribbon is the R2M, a separate unit made by Doepfer:
http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm


Here is a better link -- http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm


For U.S. based customers, you can buy Doepfer products through Analog Haven -- http://www.analoguehaven.com/doepfer/midi/

The R2M is $400 -- http://www.analoguehaven.com/doepfer/r2m/

It reminds me of the discontinued Kurzweil ExpressionMate.