New string demo posted

[Damon]

For anyone interested, here is a short demo using Smart Violins, GOS celli and bass pizz, and Xsample harp.
The song is not completed yet, but here\'s a taste.

http://damonbbradley.tripod.com/damonbradley/ (\"http://damonbbradley.tripod.com/damonbradley/\")

Its called \'Love Theme\' (haven\'t had time to name it yet).
Hope you enjoy! images/icons/smile.gif

[Thomas_J]

Great stuff Damon! I loved the expressiveness of the strings! The first 12 seconds sound almost totally convincing.

I love smart violins too! Sounds like it blends fine with GoS.

Thomas

[tob]

Beautiful Damon!! I have to try that smart violins:)

[ChrisAxia]

Hi Damon,

It\'s about time you did a new piece, and it was worth waiting for! Lovely, and I agree with Thomas that it\'s very convincing for that first 12 seconds or so. If you could continue the way you started, it will sound amazing!!

Well done,

Chris

[Damon]

Hey thanks alot guys! I appreciate the comments;). I Definitely need to make the song longer.
Cheers!

[A_Sapp]

Hey Damon, love the stuff man. I listened to, \"3 am,\" great stuff! Very commercial sounding, sellable. On the love theme, why\'d you use the smart violins? Why not GOS for everything? Is there an advantage with SV?

[Damon]

Hey ASapp,

I liked the slides on Smart Violins and the sustains blended well the best with them, that\'s why I used them.
Thanks for the kind words! images/icons/smile.gif

[dwdonehoo]

Great start! And I also particularly like \"Lateness\" and \"Wish\". Hey, more time composing, less time with real life, OK? images/icons/wink.gif

[Garius]

Damon,

Nice writing. I was in the middle of listening to all of your music and the site shut down. The message was something like, \"this site has exceeded it\'s bandwidth\".

Anyway, perhaps sometime I will get to listen to the rest, very nice. What orchestral percussion were you using? Garritan Strings?

By the way, I think you\'re on the right track for writing for film. Keep up the great work!

Best of Luck,
Garius Hill
Manhattan
Musecycle Media

[Damon]

Thanks alot for listening Garius! I appreciate the kind words.
Yeah, my site does the \'exceeded bandwith\' thing more often then usual lately images/icons/frown.gif .
I use Ultimate Orchestral Percussion and for strings I used Garritan strings on the Shawshank demo and Smart Violins with Garritan celli and bass pizz on \'Love Theme\'.

[Jamesmcwilliams]

I disregarded \"smart violins\" because I got the impression that it was a \'construction kit\' library... you know... pre-composed runs/phrases. So its a multi-sample library? (as opposed to a cop-out construction kit images/icons/smile.gif )

[Damon]

Hey James,

Smart Violins has short \'Slow\' 1 to 3 bar phrases and very useable octave slides as well as multisampled sustains (only in 1 velocity though) and staccatos.
Basically I used 2 of the short phrases because I liked the sound of the \'real\' legato and added the sustains to complete a melody on the first and second violins. Octave slides were also used in places to add more to the realism in certain parts.
It is a construction kit type of CD, but if you add the sustains to it and staccatos along with other orchestral sounds you end up coming up with something.
I\'ve redone the demo layering GOS 2nd violins over the entire thing and it makes it sound alot fuller without taking away from the legato sound. I haven\'t posted it yet though.
There is some VERY useable stuff on the CD. Kind of like AOs flute phrases and other things to help save time in doing things that sound extremely fake on a keyboard.

[Rach3]

Damon, I would not say that the phrases are very usuable. In fact, \"Smart Violins\" only contains two types of slow phrases. In terms of \"melodies\" I find it very limited. A normal drum construction kit will be useful because much less variety is required, but for strings, a construction kit type of library is extremely limited in usuage, unless you want your piece(s) to be filled with the same pharses again and again.

As far as your demo is concerned, the first half (which contains only 4-note slow phrases) sound very real, but the second half (without the phrases, only sustained samples and a little nice oct gliss) sounds completely different, like the string players suddenly forgot about basic expressions.

The only thing I find useful about the library is the disco licks. I\'ve incorporated some of them in a dance track I made recently, but you wouldn\'t want the licks to reappear in other songs.

[Damon]

I find the fast runs and octave slides very useable. These type of things can\'t be done convincingly on a keyboard.
I guess I shouldn\'t have posted it on this forum. I\'ll just keep my stuff for clients to listen to who have no idea what I\'m doing in the first place.
I figured people here knew what Smart Violins was about and I just wanted to showcase a little demo of what it is capable of along with GOS bas pizz, celli, and Xsample harp.

[Rach3]

Damon, I did not mean to intimidate you from making demos. If I did, I apologize. In fact, I like some of your demos very much. However, I think it\'s better to clarify what this library is about so that people won\'t buy it for some wrong reasons. BTW, you are right, legato playing cannot be emulated on the keyboard, but neither can the problem be solved by using a consruction kit.

[Thomas_J]

Limited by IUI, Rach3. The smart violins, in the hands of a skilled tweaker can sound totally different if you just bother to go through the hassle of chopping, pitching, timestretching etc. It\'s not a limitation of the library (although unarguably it is limited in its original state), it\'s a limitation of the end user\'s creativity and experience with audio editing. Of course if you want out of the box flexibility this library is obviously not for you.

I thought Damon\'s demo was very good and I doubt one could do any better with today\'s strings libraries. It is pretty evident what is missing as far as articulations and expression in performance of the recordings are concerned.

Thomas

[Munsie]

\"I guess I shouldn\'t have posted it on this forum. I\'ll just keep my stuff for clients to listen to who have no idea what I\'m doing in the first place.\"

This is not the typical forum! You really should EXPECT some of the composers on this site to disagree with your thoughts. Do not take it personal. Just keep in mind who your target audience is. What I\'ve found from \"lurking\" on some of these demo threads, is some users will talk down about a demo simply because they do not like the \"sample\" itself, not the composition in general. In other words, if they do not like a certain library being used, it ALREADY has a few strikes in the composition. images/icons/smile.gif

[Rach3]

Thomas, yes, I agree with you. However, if you want to tweak this library in order to maximize the usability, it is almost like making another sample library, and one would require a dedicated effort to do that. I would definitely want to hear a ten-min string piece from you using a tweaked version of the library. But to be honest, IMO even if you\'ve accquired the \"tweaked status\" of the lib, it would still take a long time to assemble a simple string passage.

[Rach3]

Of course these lines are quite simple but they prove to me that SV is really usable and useful. Especially the connecting of the notes makes this stuff realistic. Thanks for stepping out with a demo like this.

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">How? By using a 1-bar phrase in your 100-bar composition? Or by using it/them repeatedly/diatonically in say, 10 bars? Don\'t forget that SV only gives your two types of slow phrases (each one contains the same phrase played diatonically) and all the phrases are played in one tempo only.

To Composer22: Yes, divisi is a problem IMO. It is just not possible to achieve those Ravel-like transparent divisi sound with the current string libs. All you can get is some heavy sounding intervals. I heard that Virtuoso Strings has some divisi samples, but I\'am sure they are convincing or not.

[KingIdiot]

I\'m gonna get slammed for this but.

I think Divisi is something you can get with a mixture of a few solo strings and an ensemble mixed in behind. Its mostly volume and \"girth\" of the sample that makes it problematic for divisi lines.

If you were to take one or two good solo strings and layer them over the top of an ensemble and collapse the stereo field, then take one or two other solo strings (from different libraries or transposed samples up or down from another library that uses chromatically sampled notes). Layer it over another ensemble (or again transposed), sollapse its feild and pan them both accordingly (or put them in correct depth perceptionn with reverb pre sends or sound stage). You should be able to get some convincing \"small\" section sounds.

IMO its about the volume and mix of solo strings and ensemble. The right mix will yeild the best results.

Honestly tho. I ONLY consider this something you should do if you want a SMALL sound, otherwise its too much trouble and you should just use regular ensembles and jsut use volume and pan (and stereo fields) to get the right mix.

The solo will always help define each section

the only reason I say use two different libraries or transpose from a chromatically sampled library is to avaoid phasing if you are going to be playing a melody on each section that may use the same note between both. If the lines for each section will be completely different and never play the same note at the same time, you could get away with one ensemble mixed differently over two tracks.

Again a seperate solo violin for each would help to define each section here.

[composer22]

NO slams here King. Thats a great workaround I never concidered. Any other articulation magic or edits?

[KingIdiot]

I have a few \"magicc\" ideas but it requires source material I jsut dont have access to.

This is why I say that if I sampled a string library it would be different.

I work with developers who let me to throw around ideas and such.

But I still know that if *I* were to do a library, it would be done very differently.

Even more differently than the new SI strings.

BTW another \"idea\" I thought of for divisi strings, tho it may not sound too great. If you split a stereo ensemble sample into its mono counterparts you could feasably play each mono part as a seperate section. With the right reverb....it......might sound ok..... images/icons/smile.gif or completely terrible images/icons/smile.gif

[Damon]

Originally posted by Munsie:
This is not the typical forum! You really should EXPECT some of the composers on this site to disagree with your thoughts. Do not take it personal. Just keep in mind who your target audience is.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">No worries mate! images/icons/smile.gif I would just rather not post any more demos here. It constantly makes me second guess my work when what I need to be doing is keep on writing images/icons/wink.gif .
I\'m trying to target up and coming independent film directors with my demos and chances are when they listen to a mockup they probably wont say \"Hey, that violin legato doesnt sound convincing.\" That\'s why we still use real orchestras images/icons/tongue.gif We do the best with the tools we have unless you\'re a genius like ThomasJ images/icons/wink.gif

[composer22]

i need a real scoring gig so I can hire King and Thomas_J as my sound designers! No kidding!

images/icons/smile.gif images/icons/smile.gif images/icons/smile.gif images/icons/smile.gif images/icons/smile.gif

[dwdonehoo]

I had a bad opinion of \"construction kits\"...then I listened to something Thomas_J did that used phrases the RIGHT way and I went,\"Geez, dammit! that sounds great! #@*#$% How did he do that?...\" images/icons/wink.gif So I tried it myself and it worked great! So Damon was right when he said \"I find the fast runs and octave slides very useable. These type of things can\'t be done convincingly on a keyboard.\" THAT is the best use for \"construction kits\"... That and the tools they include for transitions and connectors. Done right, it is good enough to fool all but the most professional listeners. A scale run in C# is a scale run in C#, and I don\'t think it is cheating. I could do it with midi and samples, but it just would not sound as good as a well played phrase. And Damon is right when he says \"chances are when they listen to a mockup they probably wont say \"Hey, that violin legato doesn’t sound convincing.\" \". While some of us can play sonic detective real well, and while \"good enough\" will will get better with time and progress, most people already think what we do sounds exactly like a real orchestra.

[KingIdiot]

IMO runs are one thing and melodic phrases/melody lines are a complete different thing.

I can see very little limitation in usign the runs as they are or very little tweaking.

but the phrases will take on a VERY limiting aspect if you dont tweak. Not to mention they tend to direct your writing. Theres a thin line between writing a phrase and having it be written for you, when using phrases images/icons/smile.gif

Of course the general public doesn\'t know you\'re using phrases, or directors dont. What happens when the director says....\"I dont like that melody\"

Of course if you\'re a tweaker you can come up with some cool techniques to make the phrases work for you still.... but for you \"out of the boxers\" you\'re stuck.

Moral of this story.....I rule!!... oh wait no thats not it.....

There is no moral...I guess what I\'m trying to say is, phrases can be an important part of your arsenal....but dont let them drive your compositions for the sake of \"realism\".

BTW. I still think its completely possible to make realistic legato movements with multisampled strings...its just that the source material isn\'t out there. Its the little things that are missing in the libraries right now.

It jsut takes a little bit of thinking in the way gigastudio works to realize that its completely possible, and even possible to get variations.

[Rach3]

IMO runs are one thing and melodic phrases/melody lines are a complete different thing.

I can see very little limitation in usign the runs as they are or very little tweaking.

but the phrases will take on a VERY limiting aspect if you dont tweak. Not to mention they tend to direct your writing. Theres a thin line between writing a phrase and having it be written for you, when using phrases <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">King, you are absolutely right. It really shows that you have a thorough understanding of midi composition. I really hope that someday you\'ll have the opportunity to sample your own string library (in a musical/non-traditional way). Good luck!

[KingIdiot]

I wouldn\'t say I have a thorough understanding of MIDI composition. I do have a good understanding of it tho...

now...if I had a good understanding of musical composition...I\'d be set!!!! images/icons/smile.gif

[Thomas_J]

Rach3, yes it would and I would probably not bother. I just assembled a nice detache .gig using the trails of the diatonically sampled phrases. That\'s just one example of what you can do to get more out of the library.

Thomas

[PeterRoos]

Hey Damon,

Thanks for this convincing demo!

Of course these lines are quite simple but they prove to me that SV is really usable and useful. Especially the connecting of the notes makes this stuff realistic. Thanks for stepping out with a demo like this.

I already have AO, Ultimate Strings and GOS, but I think I will probably also order SV as a nice extra tool for my toolkit.

Cheers,

Peter (Emano) Roos

[composer22]

I don\'t know...

Im not that impressed...

Seems string samples do very well on the lower end of the range, but when you get into the higher registers, they start to all sound very synthetic...even GOS...

I\'d also add, where are the convincing divisi\'s in *ANY* library?

[KingIdiot]

I dont have smart violins but I can think of about 5 or 6 six thigns off the top of my head that I would do in \"tweaking\" it.

Phrases are a very useful tool. Its too bad that most libraries that have them for orchestra dont do the seperate sections like this, and that they aren\'t edited in any more useful ways.

If I ever sampled a string library myself I would do some of it in a very \"unconventional\" way. IT would still play the same as other libraries tho...just sound different in terms of phrasing.

WIth some logical MIDI plug in and monophonic string writing (one note each track), I\'m sure I could make the most \"realistic\" legato string (or any most any section) library in terms of phrasing. Anyone want to fund it images/icons/wink.gif MWAHAHAHAHAH

[composer22]

King:

How can we turn 12 violins into 6 * 6 e.g. divisi given what we have?

[Jamesmcwilliams]

Damon,

I certainly wasn\'t knocking you for using smart violins.. (hence the images/icons/smile.gif ). Don\'t stop posting demo\'s
I for one certainly love to hear what other people are doing (though it seems no-one wants to hear what I am doing... images/icons/grin.gif )

Keep up the good work,

James

[Damon]

Hey James,

Just listened to your demo. It sounds really good! Keep on posting them. What strings did you use from GOS for the sustains? Did you EQ them at all?
I\'ve never seen any of your demos posted before on here. Glad to hear one images/icons/wink.gif

[MrArkadine]

Originally posted by Damon:
For anyone interested, here is a short demo using Smart Violins, GOS celli and bass pizz, and Xsample harp.
The song is not completed yet, but here\'s a taste.

http://damonbbradley.tripod.com/damonbradley/ (\"http://damonbbradley.tripod.com/damonbradley/\")

Its called \'Love Theme\' (haven\'t had time to name it yet).
Hope you enjoy! images/icons/smile.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Damon,

Great start, I like it. I love the expresive sound of those celli, and the underlaying harp.
Sorry I got late into the action, I\'ve been real busy lately and away from the forum...

Please, let us know when you finish this piece.

[Jamesmcwilliams]

Originally posted by Damon:
Hey James,

Just listened to your demo. It sounds really good! Keep on posting them. What strings did you use from GOS for the sustains? Did you EQ them at all?
I\'ve never seen any of your demos posted before on here. Glad to hear one images/icons/wink.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Thanks Damon,

The sustains are for the most part 1st/2nd grand detache. I brightened the whole mix up slightly with EQ. I actually use the EQ in winamp player, then use the disk writer to capture it to wav.

Also, I tend to use both the up and down bowings at the same time to fatten up the sound.