Wanted alive harpsichord player

[Raymond62]

Is there one around in this forum?

Raymond

[Poolman]

Yes, I am a harpsichordist, and have a large two-manual instrument which I built myself. (Also a clavichord),

Terry Dwyer

[Raymond62]

Yes, I am a harpsichordist, and have a large two-manual instrument which I built myself. (Also a clavichord),

Terry Dwyer

Thanks and you are the guy that wrote that great tutorial. Come to you later with some questions, ok?

Raymond

[Poolman]

Of course.

TD

[Fabio]

I'm also a harpsichordist.

But Terry is probably a complete and experienced source, even more than me.

by the way I'm available as an European alternative source...:o

[Raymond62]

Terry and Fabio, please have a look at this thread

http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58302


I am busy with a new project. Mostly for myself to learn from JSB. But maybe soem others can learn from it also, after all it is quite an important work to learn different aspects of our western music. Please have a look at it and don't hesitate to "burn me to the ground" when I did something wrong.

As I explained I have only a pianoscore, but I changed some elements (longer notes), because the Harpsichord is different from a piano (where you can hold on forever, dying out that sound).

When I am finished with this project at least I have a complete set of Preludes, and the score, to study. Maybe useful for other members too.

Raymond

[Poolman]

Raymond,

I have posted a full reply on your other thread.

Terry Dwyer

[Pingu]

OK I keep seeign this post and wanting to attach a poster of Jesse James seated at a harpsichord ....but I'll resist.

On a more serious note, while there are harpsichordists watching, I have a question. When I was at high school my teacher claimed that harpsichord technique, in Bach's day, involved holding the fingers quite flat, so that the thumbs didn't reach the keys. Hence pieces were played largely without the thumbs, which put a whole new slant on articulation and phrasing.

Is this true?

[Poolman]

OK I keep seeign this post and wanting to attach a poster of Jesse James seated at a harpsichord ....but I'll resist.

On a more serious note, while there are harpsichordists watching, I have a question. When I was at high school my teacher claimed that harpsichord technique, in Bach's day, involved holding the fingers quite flat, so that the thumbs didn't reach the keys. Hence pieces were played largely without the thumbs, which put a whole new slant on articulation and phrasing.

Is this true?

Partly. The keys were shorter than a modern piano, so the thumbs did not come into play quite so readily. In the 16th century the keys were *much* shorter, and the thumbs were not used much at all.

But in all centuries the fingers were NOT held flat, quite the contrary. Fingers were held quite bent, so that the tips could get a good vertical strike. Contemporary documents and pictures prove this.

When I first started playing harpsichord and clavichord, I found that my ingrained piano fingering habits were a handicap. I tried to follow the correct bent approach and lack of thumb, but gave up the struggle and just went on playing the music. After a while I naturally adapted to the styles and found that strange things happened: in Elizabethan music I found that I was fingering scales 12 12 12 etc, without thumbs, but in Bach the thumbs did come into play. At all times the bent fingers were best.

Terry Dwyer

[Jerry W.]

Is this true?
I have heard this too, but....
I cannot honestly see how this is possible, looking at the complexity of using FIVE digit fingering in the Well Tempered Claivier and the 2 and 3 Part Inventions, let alone using only 4. THAT would be a neat thing to see someone do. I am sure it is POSSIBLE - but having played many of JSB's pieces, I cannot imagine it.

perhaps my tactile memory is just too far ingrained for my imagination to see this.

Jerry

[PaulR]

At all times the bent fingers were best.Terry Dwyer

One of Bach's children noted that when he (JSBach) played the harpsichord or clavichord - all that was really noticeable was his knuckles moving up and down. Probably looked a bit like speed typing.

When playing say, the Italian Concerto or the C minor Fantasia for example - your thumbs are pretty important. ;)

[Jerry W.]

Anything with octaves seems pretty needful for the thumbs,

but... I am no harpsichordist - and everything I have played has been for piano.

The thought of the fact of smaller keys didn't occur to me, though it should have.

Fascinating.

Jerry

[PaulR]

The thought of the fact of smaller keys didn't occur to me, though it should have.

Fascinating.

Jerry

But do you know why the white notes are black - and the black notes are white? :D

[Jerry W.]

:)
yes

the materials used to make them were different.

Though - why they switched is beyond me. I like the black white keys and the white black keys. :)

:D

Jerry

[PaulR]

:)
yes

the materials used to make them were different.

Though - why they switched is beyond me. I like the black white keys and the white black keys. :)

:D

Jerry

Heheh! I like the keys the different way round. :D

Years ago when I was at college in London - I used to go to a store called Harrods and work there for an hour a day demonstrating harpsichords in their music dept as it was then.

Someone at college or in the store may have told me that back in the 18th century, a lot of harpsichord players were young ladies. The keys being coloured the wrong way round showed off their elegant white hands as they played. :heart:

[rbowser-]

"...I found that my ingrained piano fingering habits were a handicap..."

I don't get that--Why did my first piano teacher put an orange in my palm to keep my fingers curled--?

Randy B.

[Raymond62]

"...I found that my ingrained piano fingering habits were a handicap..."

I don't get that--Why did my first piano teacher put an orange in my palm to keep my fingers curled--?

Randy B.

To better catch the tips you get while playing in a bar.

Raymond

[Fabio]

About technic, what Poolman say is (of course...;-) correct:

- fingers are following the "artiglio di gatto" (cat's nails) position needed for the short keys as for the strenght requested by the harpsichord mechanics

About thumbs:

- several XVII century Italian, French an English music can (must...) be played with short keyboards and without the thumb.

- a big part of XVIII century Harpsichord and Organ music is to play with 5 fingers: it's due to the evolution of keyboards, with longer and softer keys, and the use of more resonant (longer and/or percussed strings) instruments rewarding use of octaves, long notes and more sophisticated poliphony.

- the runs were probably still made with 2 fingers (2 and 3 in piano convention) "walking" on the keyboard, instead of the actual thumb crossing technic, developed for later clavicord, fortepiano and pianoforte technic in late XVIII century.

Bach music has been developed during this transition time, and Bach's technic was a self-developed innovative and advanced way of playing keyboard, challenging and influencing the performer habits: even for the long time (before Mendelsson's revival) when Bach was not appreciated as a composer, everybody considered him father of the modern keyboard technic.

The contemporary people told about his ability as an absolute excellence benchmark, and all the pianist of the following years and centuries (including people like Mozart and Beethoven) had to study Bach's keyboard works.

[Aziraphal]

Yes, I am a harpsichordist, and have a large two-manual instrument which I built myself. (Also a clavichord),

Terry Dwyer


Just realized that this thread title sounds like a weird Westen movie title.

Wanted!
Terry "Harpsichord Bandit" Dwyer
Dead or Alive!

:D

[Raymond62]

Just realized that this thread title sounds like a weird Westen movie title.

Wanted!
Terry "Harpsichord Bandit" Dwyer
Dead or Alive!

:D

Yes, I could have written: "Wanted a harpsichord player" and then ... what then.. names like Bach, Scarlatti, etc. came up. Today the presenters of radioprograms always say: "Today the Band So-And-So will appear in our program, live". I wonder what they do when they appear dead?
:)
Raymond

[Poolman]

Use of thumb:-

One thing I forgot to mention in the discussion on the use of the thumb in early music was the "Short octave". This was a way of constructing a keyboard on the cheap. Instead of the lowest note being C as on many instruments, the lowest (apparent) note was E. However this E key was tuned to C, the F# was tuned to D, and the G# was tuned to E. So to play a scale upwards from C, you played the apparent keys E F# G# F G A B C. There was no low C# D# F# or G# available, but since only simple keys were written for, these notes were not really needed.

Where does the thumb come into this? Well, they always used the thumb for octaves in the left hand. It was the turning of the thumb for scales that didn't come till later. Now watch what happens in Peter Phillips' Pavane and Galliard Dolorosa (Fitzwilliam Virginal Book):-

He writes in the left hand: low C with E a 10th higher, F with F an octave higher, low D with F# a 10th higher, G in octaves, Low E with G# a 10th higher, A in octaves. Assuming that a 10th is too much for us, this would be impossible on a normal keyboard; therefore it was composed with the short octave in mind. Work it out! It is quite easy to play on the short octave keyboard because your hand simply stretches a normal octave for each of those intervals and moves up the chromatic scale!

Terry Dwyer

[PaulR]

But Professor Terry - what if I want to stretch a 10th - on different manuals? ~|

[Poolman]

But Professor Terry - what if I want to stretch a 10th - on different manuals? ~|

Use your nose! :D

The short octave only appeared on cheap instruments in the 16th and 17th centuries, such as virginals, spinets, clavichords. Never on a two-manual harpsichord, which only the rich could afford. By the 18th century I think the short octave had disappeared.

Terry

[Raymond62]

Use your nose! :D

The short octave only appeared on cheap instruments in the 16th and 17th centuries, such as virginals, spinets, clavichords. Never on a two-manual harpsichord, which only the rich could afford. By the 18th century I think the short octave had disappeared.

Terry

Once I met a guy with six fingers at the right hand. Pity, he wasn't a harpsichord player, just a construction worker.

Raymond