vr sound "Piano-1", anyone playing it? [Archive]

pianojoe

04-22-2002, 09:23 PM

I\'m a lover of the Yamaha sound, though not too thrilled with Gigapiano. The vrsound piano 1 interests me, though at $300, & a lowsy online demo, I\'m hesitant to buy, without some help... Anyone playing this sample?

franz

04-23-2002, 09:56 AM

new demo: http://www.vrsound.com/GS/dfriedmannpno.mp3 (\"http://www.vrsound.com/GS/dfriedmannpno.mp3\")

this sample is still very exclusive. Several celeb users. Listen for it on new \"ER\" episodes starting this week.

Sam White

04-24-2002, 04:08 AM

Interesting sound! Does anybody know more about it´s playability, release triggers, how big the sample is... Thank you

franz

04-24-2002, 09:00 AM

piano = Yamaha C7 Conservatory.
size = 1.7 GB
4 + 4 vel layers, held + pedal.
4 vel release samples for every note.
Robotically sampled for precise vel switching, recorded from the players perspective using the Aachen Head into Neve pre amps to 96/24 IZ Radar. Downsampled to 48/16 for size.

franZ

pianojoe

04-24-2002, 11:13 PM

Franz, your website says 3 pedal down layers, your last post says 4. Which is it?

Sam White

04-26-2002, 04:06 AM

Hi Franz! I would like to order your YAMAHA C7 but I don´t have any creditcard. Please tell me how. Thank you

pianojoe

05-24-2002, 10:13 AM

Hey Sam, did you ever get the C7 sample? What\'s it like? layering, playability, consistancy? Tell me everything!!!

Olivierbergman

09-28-2002, 10:13 AM

hi,

yes, i find this Piano very Nice !!!

listen the demo !!!!

Franz should make other\'s demo !!!

(5 or 10 demos)

does he wants really to sell his Piano ???

Hum.....

the price is High !

i would buy it for : 150 USD $

Olivier

Bruce A. Richardson

09-28-2002, 12:39 PM

I missed this thread the first time around.

Franz, that is a nice demo...excellent sparkle in the upper register without being too \"stringy.\" That\'s a tough balance to achieve.

Michiel Post

10-01-2002, 05:28 AM

I listened to the demos on Franz\'s website.
It may not be too polite as a piano library producer to comment publicly on someone elses work, but as Franz never showed to be polite towards other library producers I think he can handle my observations.
The sample sounds very close and present which is promising and nice for jazz or popmusic.
I do think however the sample needs some work on several aspects before it becomes usable.
Some observations:

Haydn min pno
http://www.vrsound.com/GS/Haydn_min_pno_concerto.mp3 (\"http://www.vrsound.com/GS/Haydn_min_pno_concerto.mp3\")

I will just concentrate on the piano sound of this demo, the other instruments speak for themselves (there are not my cup of tea).
- there is a big difference in timbre when going from one velocity layer to the next; when played at p the sound is nice mellow and warm but when played slightly louder (at p-mf) the sound suddenly changes a lot into a more aggressive tone. There seems to be too big a difference. You can hear that at 1:30’ (and many other moments) where the abrupt timbre change is disturbing.
(BTW: I only hear 3 velocity layers, not 4)
- Tuning overall of the piano is not very stable. The lower velocities are ok, but the louder the samples the more disturbing the tuning gets.
- the ending of notes is very unrealistic; like an envelope generator is using a setting of 0 sec. It sounds like a synthesiser or a bad adjusted noise-gate. Listen to: 1:46
- the highest octave (listen to 1:44’) sounds muffled at lower velocities. The middle octave are brighter and “speak” while to higher octaves seem muffled

dfriedmannpno
http://www.vrsound.com/GS/dfriedmannpno.mp3 (\"http://www.vrsound.com/GS/dfriedmannpno.mp3\")

- 3:01 the release sound is missing in many of the staccato notes, or the eg is set to 0. Sounds like a heavy gate is cutting the sound off into absolute silence instead of a natural release sound. (Are there release samples used?)
- 2:39’ and 2:44’ and specially 2:48’ same as in the Haydn demo the sound stops very abrupt, like someone unplugs the microphone; there is no release sample audible and no EG release curve to compensate for the abrupt stop.
- Tuning overall is not very stable; the final chord for example is horrible.
- 3:28’ and 3:43’: highest octaves sound too soft, not bright enough

Overall note:
Although the close aspect of this sample is very appealing at first I kind of miss the whole singing tone of the notes. Like the ground frequency of the bass notes has not been recorded and only the overtones are present. Recording close to the source disables the low bass strings to develop their full tone. A low frequency of a 2 meter piano string needs several meters to develop its ground frequency waves. When the mic is placed closer than this distance you hear that frequency partially; just the phase of the wave that is developed ¾ or less. When you hear the low chords in the jazz demo there is no life, the chord is kind of dead.

Franz could do us a favor by making a demo based on the purgatory creek midi file. This piece reveals many aspects of sampled pianos.

Michiel Post

franz

10-01-2002, 10:49 AM

Rich Friedmann demo:
Cause for release cutoff:
Sustain pedal disables release samples, a GS problem.

Haydn:
GM file very limited dynamics, only 2 of 4 layers are being triggered, no sustain pedal used in midi file.
Sound Stop:
The samples 100% match the real piano in all aspects. A well adjusted piano stops pretty quick in the center octaves (or at least it should)

Recording: Binaural head on piano bench. Exactly matched Elton John\'s height (He used this piano to compose his last record) = virtual experience Elton had, we even matched the exact location of the piano at Sony studios.

Tuning and response (including fast dampers): Courtesy of Yamaha Corporation of America.

Purgatory Creek:
Nice, but not even close to a serious piano testing sequence. I will give it a shot anyhow.

VRSound is about Reality.
What you are critisizing is the piano itself, the midi sequencing work and not the samples. I did not change the samples after the fact at all. This is a snapshot of this instrument in the state it was in the day I sampled it. The frequency response of my mikes is beyond most and these samples can be used to analyse the instrument as well as the room it is in.

Our perception of pianos has been damaged by bad samples for many years (one layer, too bright, no volume curve at all, roland, kurz..). I am dedicated to live recordings and Jazz productions. My samples are a result of my need to experience all of an instrument, this includes a few bad things. Correcting flaws in acoustic instruments in the samples I call \"synthesizing\". Recording with monoral mikes is also a form of synthesizing since it does not capture natural runtime differences and a natural sonic image no matter how far or close they are placed.
I haven\'t used a close mike in a piano ever. Even before binaural head systems.

If you are into Jazz please check my latest production of an unbelievable piano talent: Eugene Maslov: The Fuse Is Lit. This record is a great example of how I like a piano to sound.

Binaural in mid air 5.1:
Feed LF and LR with L and RF and RR with R the piano will appear in front of you in mid air. This works with all of our samples.
No 5.1:
Move speakers to 180 opposed L and R of your head for the same effect.

I am trying something completely new here. Getting away from the same old and I am developing new methods of audio recording and playback. My goal is to make the listener loose the ability to localise speakers. This means creating an artificial, convincing acoustic environment where instruments are no longer restricted to locations between or at speaker locations and offer the perfomer as well as the listener an absolutely natural audio experience as if present at the event. Unlike Peter Gabriel\'s new record, my 3D sound has no phase problems (GS piano is really badly out of phase) which make me physically ill (I love Peter but now I can\'t listen to half of his new music F%$#@#@$#@ some crappy 3d algorithm or cheap binaural head), it also includes the room ambience within the samples which adds value. Not only do you get the piano, you also get its location. It\'s no longer about which piano but about which piano where. I find the idea to sample pianos on different stages (i.e. Royal Albert, Musikvereinssaal,..) with binaural mikes (Virtual Presence) intriguing and inspiring.

Listen to the piano demo and you will find that you can very precisely locate the position of every hammer strike. Also check out the Pipe Organ demo.

Phase check:
Listen to the demo in mono. (both channels equal volume) Do the same with all the other piano demos.

Yes I am mean.

Jake Johnson

10-02-2002, 10:14 AM

Well...I had to slow down to understand this, but isn\'t there some chance, if we share Elton John\'s listening experience, that we in a sense become Elton John? This may be reason for some concern.

Olivierbergman

10-02-2002, 02:49 PM

hi Franz,

I like the demo (real Yamaha sound)

i prefer a Good Yamaha than a bad Steinway !!!!

Why one demo ?

only one ?

can we have more demos ? (your Piano cost 300 $)

for your potential customers ?

With .mp3 demos :

my preferred Piano :

1. Eastwest Steinway B with my patch
2. Kip Bosendorfer / Your Yamaha
3. Post audio media Bosendorfer
(need more .mp3 demos !)
4. My Schimmel
5. Mamlsjo
6. Gigapiano

Regards,

Olivier

shawn

10-02-2002, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by franz:
Rich Friedmann demo:
Cause for release cutoff:
Sustain pedal disables release samples, a GS problem.The fact that it\'s a GS limitation doesn\'t make the sample any more useful to the customer. Sounds more like a VR Sound problem to me.

Originally posted by franz:
Haydn:
GM file very limited dynamics, only 2 of 4 layers are being triggered, no sustain pedal used in midi file.Then why on earth wouldn\'t you use a more dynamic GM file that will show off your samples in a truer light?

Originally posted by franz:
VRSound is about Reality.
What you are critisizing is the piano itself, the midi sequencing work and not the samples.So... one should buy your instruments because they were sampled so well even if he doesn\'t like the sound of them? And again, why are you showcasing your products with unflattering midi sequencing?

Originally posted by franz:
Binaural in mid air 5.1:
Feed LF and LR with L and RF and RR with R the piano will appear in front of you in mid air. This works with all of our samples.I\'d hardly call the sound of a piano floating in front of me in mid-air a \"natural audio experience\".

Originally posted by franz:
Yes I am mean.Maybe you are, I have no idea. I don\'t mean any disrespect to your product -- to be honest I haven\'t even listened to the demos. But you sure could use some work on how you respond to criticism.

-Shawn

franz

10-04-2002, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by shawn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by franz:
Rich Friedmann demo:
Cause for release cutoff:
Sustain pedal disables release samples, a GS problem.The fact that it\'s a GS limitation doesn\'t make the sample any more useful to the customer. Sounds more like a VR Sound problem to me.

Yes, it is a vrsound problem. i did not want to compromise the beautiful release resonance set for the non sustain samples. So if sutain is pressed and you play the sus samples the release samples do not play. ad a tiny bit of reverb and it will not bother you. Or use the sus pedal sparingly (like my piano teacher told me).

Originally posted by franz:
Haydn:
GM file very limited dynamics, only 2 of 4 layers are being triggered, no sustain pedal used in midi file.Then why on earth wouldn\'t you use a more dynamic GM file that will show off your samples in a truer light?

This is the true light. That\'s why I chose an average unmodified GM file straight of the web. What better way to show how the samples really are. I note, no other developer has used the same midi file to kick my a@@ yet.

Originally posted by franz:
VRSound is about Reality.
What you are critisizing is the piano itself, the midi sequencing work and not the samples.So... one should buy your instruments because they were sampled so well even if he doesn\'t like the sound of them? And again, why are you showcasing your products with unflattering midi sequencing?

1) You would buy an instrument that you don\'t like...?
2) To spare people from buying instruments they don\'t like. People with one aota of imagination can extrapolate how these instruments will work for their music. All others I\'d rather not sell to.

Originally posted by franz:
Binaural in mid air 5.1:
Feed LF and LR with L and RF and RR with R the piano will appear in front of you in mid air. This works with all of our samples.I\'d hardly call the sound of a piano floating in front of me in mid-air a \"natural audio experience\".

So close your eyes an imagine yourself in fron of a piano, which is 3 dimensional object....... where does the sound come from, speakers?

Originally posted by franz:
Yes I am mean.Maybe you are, I have no idea. I don\'t mean any disrespect to your product -- to be honest I haven\'t even listened to the demos. But you sure could use some work on how you respond to criticism.

YES.

-Shawn<hr /></blockquote>

franz

10-04-2002, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by shawn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by franz:
Rich Friedmann demo:
Cause for release cutoff:
Sustain pedal disables release samples, a GS problem.The fact that it\'s a GS limitation doesn\'t make the sample any more useful to the customer. Sounds more like a VR Sound problem to me.

Yes, it is a vrsound problem. i did not want to compromise the beautiful release resonance set for the non sustain samples. So if sutain is pressed and you play the sus samples the release samples do not play. ad a tiny bit of reverb and it will not bother you. Or use the sus pedal sparingly (like my piano teacher told me).

Originally posted by franz:
Haydn:
GM file very limited dynamics, only 2 of 4 layers are being triggered, no sustain pedal used in midi file.Then why on earth wouldn\'t you use a more dynamic GM file that will show off your samples in a truer light?

This is the true light. That\'s why I chose an average unmodified GM file straight of the web. What better way to show how the samples really are. I note, no other developer has used the same midi file to kick my a@@ yet.

Originally posted by franz:
VRSound is about Reality.
What you are critisizing is the piano itself, the midi sequencing work and not the samples.So... one should buy your instruments because they were sampled so well even if he doesn\'t like the sound of them? And again, why are you showcasing your products with unflattering midi sequencing?

1) You would buy an instrument that you don\'t like...?
2) To spare people from buying instruments they don\'t like. People with one aota of imagination can extrapolate how these instruments will work for their music. All others I\'d rather not sell to.

Originally posted by franz:
Binaural in mid air 5.1:
Feed LF and LR with L and RF and RR with R the piano will appear in front of you in mid air. This works with all of our samples.I\'d hardly call the sound of a piano floating in front of me in mid-air a \"natural audio experience\".

So close your eyes an imagine yourself in fron of a piano, which is 3 dimensional object....... where does the sound come from, speakers?

Originally posted by franz:
Yes I am mean.Maybe you are, I have no idea. I don\'t mean any disrespect to your product -- to be honest I haven\'t even listened to the demos. But you sure could use some work on how you respond to criticism.

YES.

-Shawn<hr /></blockquote>