Vote for Orchestration Challenge 15! [Archive]

Garritan

01-22-2008, 04:14 PM

It's time to vote for Ochestral Challenge #15!.

As the winner of Challenge 14, Ken (RustyCrook) created the theme for people to orchestrate and arrange for this round.

We received 10 entries this time. And all of the entries were very good so this will be a tough vote.

Many thanks to Ken for the theme. Thanks again to Sean for putting this all together and hosting the entries. And a big thanks to all of the participants.

This is a "one-vote-per-person" poll. We'll keep the voting open for about two weeks.

The choices are:

Entry 1 - http://www.wizardwalk.com/duel2/Entry01_Chall15.mp3
Entry 2 - http://www.wizardwalk.com/duel2/Entry02_Chall15.mp3
Entry 3 - http://www.wizardwalk.com/duel2/Entry03_Chall15.mp3
Entry 4 - http://www.wizardwalk.com/duel2/Entry04_Chall15.mp3
Entry 5 - http://www.wizardwalk.com/duel2/Entry05_Chall15.mp3
Entry 6 - http://www.wizardwalk.com/duel2/Entry06_Chall15.mp3
Entry 7 - http://www.wizardwalk.com/duel2/Entry07_Chall15.mp3
Entry 8 - http://www.wizardwalk.com/duel2/Entry08_Chall15.mp3
Entry 9 - http://www.wizardwalk.com/duel2/Entry09_Chall15.mp3
Entry 10 - http://www.wizardwalk.com/duel2/Entry10_Chall15.mp3

Have fun and good luck!

Gary Garritan

englishgent

01-22-2008, 04:19 PM

Thanks for getting this up, Gary.

A question: Can those who have submitted a piece vote? If so, I'm guessing the rule would be to vote for any except one's own.

Owen

Garritan

01-22-2008, 04:20 PM

Thanks for getting this up, Gary.

A question: Can those who have submitted a piece vote? If so, I'm guessing the rule would be to vote for any except one's own.

OwenOwne,

You can vote for any one piece (even your own). Voting is anonymous.

Best,

Gary

englishgent

01-22-2008, 04:22 PM

OOPS!

The links below appear to be for the last challenge! (Number 14)

June-Bug-Dan

01-22-2008, 04:28 PM

They are all so wonderful!!
But not for this challenge!!!
Gary whats wrong?!?!?!

Dan.

Garritan

01-22-2008, 05:15 PM

Woops - I think I was sent the wrong links

We'll update the links.

Gary

EDIT: Try it now - I think I figured out the links.
EDIT2: And the thread is re-opened

SeanHannifin

01-22-2008, 08:37 PM

Other ways to listen:

Online MP3 Player (http://www.wizardwalk.com/OrchestrationChallenges/player.html)

All in one zip file (http://www.wizardwalk.com/duel2/Challenge15.zip)

Thanks for posting this Gary!

When I emailed Gary the links, I changed the text of the links, but I suppose the HTML code with the old links remained the same... :o :wow: Argh, stupid computers! Sorry about that, 'twas my fault... thank you Gary for fixing it!! :)

Thanks again to all the participants! )(~

sanyarem

01-22-2008, 11:29 PM

Yay! We got a few quick voters already. I guess they were all like me and were checking every few hours just excited to vote! :D

Stephanie Pray

01-22-2008, 11:53 PM

Boy was that a tough decision! :D They're all so good!! :hp: Great job guys!! )(~

etLux

01-23-2008, 02:16 AM

Very difficult choice, indeed!

So, of course, I voted for all of them... lol.

Good luck to all!

My best,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

Hannes_F

01-23-2008, 01:54 PM

Funny. The version I liked most spontaneously did not get any vote yet. Decided then last minute to vote another one (both not mine).

KeithW

01-24-2008, 09:43 AM

The hardest choice yet! Excellent work everybody. The beginning melody sounds remarkably like the "CBS Movie Theme" from the 1970s by Morton Stevens (of Hawaii Five-O fame.)

Keep up the great work.

Keith W.

sanyarem

01-24-2008, 12:36 PM

I have to echo what everyone else has said so far. I absolutely agree these are all great entries. I really liked the diversity in styles, not only between each of the songs, but also within single songs as well. I tried basing my opinion on two things: My first impression (obviously from my first listen) of how the overall feel of the song was. I then re-listened and decided how well each song used the melody and gave extra points to those who expanded on the melody to give it an original twist. Unfortunately, this last part was useless on this challenge because everyone came up with some sort of variation on the original melody, which I love! So my final decision was based on my first-impression and overall feel of the song. Great job guys!

schneb

01-24-2008, 01:41 PM

I voted with the following criteria in my head. If I was needing music for my movie, which would I choose? Now seeing that I have put quite a bit of money into this movie, that sets my criteria pretty high.

I went with the choice I made because it moved me and evoked a cinematic epic in my head.

RustyCrook

01-25-2008, 12:17 AM

I went with the choice I made because it moved me and evoked a cinematic epic in my head.
Fantastic, schneb . . . . that's what it's all about!!

YBaCuO

01-25-2008, 01:01 AM

Okie, Dokie, I voted too. I went with the one that just tickled my ears the most on this day after one quick listen through. I didn't analyze this time. I really prefer the 3 votes per person, because there are so many different styles to choose from; I cannot compare a Hollywood blockbuster to a barnyard romp to a ... Oh well, maybe next time.

Thanks everyone!
YBaCuO

AlanPerkins

01-25-2008, 05:56 AM

This will definitely need more than one listening - these are all excellent!

I certainly cannot decide after one pass through. I will be delighted to give them all another hearing.

rbowser-

01-25-2008, 10:20 AM

--Cinematic? Which version to use in a movie? -(Checking the thread - am I on Wrayer's movie challenge by mistake?--no, OK, just had to check) - Interesting! I don't now how that criteria came up, but obviously we can approach listening to music however we want. I just thought this was more about listening to various orchestration approaches for the theme, and not about thinking the pieces were supposed to be fitting a particular market or genre.

A Wyndom Hill/New Age style seems to be sweeping the Challenge though, rather than a film score approach. That's a universally pleasing style, and it's probably getting appreciation especially since it's not the fanfare approach which is the most obvious way to seat an orchestration of this theme.

As always, a really entertaining event with solid entries. I especially enjoy the different variations and new sections that people came up with. Some of the best work here involves the areas where the arrangers created new material which makes their versions uniquely their own.

I like them all Very much!

Randy B.

RustyCrook

01-25-2008, 11:05 AM

Many thanks to Ken for the theme. Thanks again to Sean for putting this all together and hosting the entries. And a big thanks to all of the participants.
Thank you, Gary. And, I would also like to extend my thanks to Sean for all his help in administering the Challenge! )(~

I can appreciate why it is so hard to choose among all these fine entries! As those who have won the Challenge before me already know -- and as someone from this challenge will eventually come to know -- it is extremely gratifying to hear one’s melody come alive in new and different ways. I know how difficult it is to get the “performance” one wants, over and above the composition! To my way of thinking, we've actually got two challenges here: the orchestration challenge and the performance challenge. And on that count, we've got some awesomely beautiful performances.

So, thank you all for making the melody come alive with such passion and musicality! :)

Ken
(RustyCrook)

wrayer

01-25-2008, 11:32 AM

Looks like we have a clear leader! I throw in the towel.

wrayer

01-28-2008, 01:50 PM

I am bumping to see if anyone else still wants to vote.

Hannes_F

02-04-2008, 03:18 AM

Since we have such a clear winner I think it may be allowed to appreciate the entries without distorting competition. :) I prefer to review the entries as long as they are still anonymus.

#01 I like the versatility in instrument coice and tempo here, also the work with the thematic material.

#02 I skip this one

#03 This was an entry I played for several of my friends and every time it produced good mood and joy. No idea why it did not get any voting, it still is good and was amoung my favorites.

#04 A beginning that could fit to a contemporary concert piece and the consequent use of percussion made this very original.

#05 The use of the Concert and Marching Band is what fits to the theme very naturally, so it is a good choice for an impressive arrangement. Maybe in this competition relation the pieces were slight in favor that did the contrary and avoided heraldic trumpets. But in itself I think this one would be very effective.

#06 The contrast of brass and timpani vs. strings for the two parts of the theme comes very natural. Good rendering quality also.

#07 The beauty of the piano sound made this intriguing from second one. Also in this surrounding it was the entry that was different, so a deserved winner.

#08 Dreamlike use of thematic and harmonic tissue. Very fine thinking in the voice leading choices also.

#09 Good-mooded use of CoMB with fugato-like structures.

#10 Creating a broad, symphonic and uplifting soundscape with skillful use of the instrument groups, very fine.

wrayer

02-04-2008, 10:42 AM

sanyarem

02-04-2008, 11:03 AM

I like the idea of giving credit to the ones I was unable to vote for (the other 8 :D) But since I'm pressed for time right now, i'm just going to mention the comments that stick out in my memory.

Entry 1: I really appreciated the variety of instruments used in this one.
Entry 3: Like Hannes said, I'm surprised this one didn't get any votes, it was in my top 3 as far as my personal judging went.

Entry 7: Well, ya, it was great )(~
Entry 8: This one won my vote, it seemed to have a nice balance of the original melody as well as some original sections.

By the way, anyone who has seen some of my previous posts could probably guess which entry is mine :)

rbowser-

02-04-2008, 11:45 AM

I agree that it's pretty much time to put this Orchestration Challenge to rest. My gosh it started So long ago--months!

But it's by far the most unbalanced voting I've ever seen--Very curious situation. #7 is very nice, rather in the "New Age" genre as I noted before. But it's very surprising to me, even perplexing that it should be so hugely the favorite. :confused:

I think Hannes is certainly right that part of the reason #7 stands out is because it's so different from any of the others - but I don't understand why that makes it a clear and "deserved winner." The theme was clearly a fanfare, and the entries which stayed true to the theme's original intention surely shouldn't be penalized. Very interesting reaction!

But then I've certainly seen that kind of dynamic happen in other situations - The painting in a gallery which is a dramatically different style from the rest of the collection gets the most attention, simply since it is different, not because it's "better." --An actor in a small supporting comic role can burst on in a play, do his short scene and "steal the show" simply because his scene was in such high contrast to the rest of the show--but it doesn't mean his performance was "better." -- And so on. Interesting stuff.

#7 is very nice, and I just took another listen to #2 which Hannes for some unexplained reason said he skipped--?!--It's a brief but excellent orchestration of the theme. In fact, I find all of the entries of very high quality.

If the voting could magically reflect my own feeling, they would all be neck-and-neck -The imbalance in the voting seems so very odd to me!

But this should be wrapped up soon. It'll be great to hear what #7's arranger comes up with for the new Challenge theme!

Randy B.

schneb

02-04-2008, 12:33 PM

--Cinematic? Which version to use in a movie? Interesting! I don't now how that criteria came up, but obviously we can approach listening to music however we want. I just thought this was more about listening to various orchestration approaches for the theme, and not about thinking the pieces were supposed to be fitting a particular market or genre.

It wasn't, of course, that is why I wrote the caveat in my post. Rather than saying, "I like all of them and its hard to choose", I set a high, personal standard by which to judge. This was for me, and me alone, of course, because I LOVE Soundtrack music and believe as the Church supported the creation of much of our Classical music of yesterday, the movies are supporting our Classical music of tomorrow.

rbowser-

02-04-2008, 01:31 PM

Hiya, schneb - Nice to hear from you again. Interesting stuff, thanks for talking more about what you meant earlier.

So the "caveat" you're referring to in your earlier reply is that your own criteria for good music is if it could be used in a film sound track. Correct?

As a philosophically motivated reply, not intending to be arbitrarily argumentative, - I have to honestly say I don't know what it means for music to be "cinematic."

There have been many fashions in musical styles that have come and gone during the course of film history, but a great deal of effective sound track work doesn't come close to being in the "classical" style you're mentioning. What about the great use there has been of folk music, gospel music, jazz, rock music, primitive music...? - It seems clear to me that any music in existence could potentially be used in a movie. We have the current John Williams grand European Orchestral style of film scores, but that's certainly not the only one that exists.

And that's why I'm not getting how the criteria for "good music" can be reduced to some narrowly defined version of what is "cinematic." With all styles of music available to a film maker to underscore his/her film - isn't the broader category of just Music the one where that sound track can come from? From purely percussive sound tracks, to string quartets, to garage rock bands, to pieces from the authentically classic catalogs, to soundscapes of purely electronic bleeps and bloops--any Music that exists can end up on a film and in consequence be called "cinematic"---but the term "cinematic" itself doesn't describe anything in particular.

Hence - :confused:

Randy B.

garymosse

02-04-2008, 04:33 PM

When I was teaching Elementary, Middle School & High School kids about using words to describe Music, the usual feedback was good or bad.
That's because most of them were using the TONE SPONGE effect to make their decisions.
People of different stages in listening skills will seldom use similar
words to describe music. Mostly, you can never accurately gauge what or how music is judged for a large audience.
When I think of Cinematic music, I first think of the many pieces written for movies in the 30's, 40's & 50's. Definitely identifiable after you've heard enough of them.
I just saw a movie THE BUCKET LIST (?) which was a great movie, but I thought the music was mostly xxzzrtp level.
MUSIC in general is a place to save money in most public venues.
Thank about how the BIG BANDS 0f the 40's became combo groups
because of pay.
I"M rambling...
Gary

SeanHannifin

02-05-2008, 12:40 AM

And that's why I'm not getting how the criteria for "good music" can be reduced to some narrowly defined version of what is "cinematic." With all styles of music available to a film maker to underscore his/her film - isn't the broader category of just Music the one where that sound track can come from? From purely percussive sound tracks, to string quartets, to garage rock bands, to pieces from the authentically classic catalogs, to soundscapes of purely electronic bleeps and bloops--any Music that exists can end up on a film and in consequence be called "cinematic"---but the term "cinematic" itself doesn't describe anything in particular.

Hence - :confused:

But as you say, "cinematic" is a broad term, eh? And just about as subjective as "good music".

Probably the easiest definition I would use for "cinematic music" is "music that, for the listener, evokes the emotions and memories he commonly attributes to watching films that make him feel the most powerful emotions."

So "cinematic" is certainly still a very valid criteria for "good music" ... it's just as subjective as any criteria might, and probably will, be. No less valid, though.

Anyway, I'll take the official vote count Tuesday afternoon when the poll will have be open for 2 weeks exactly, though I think it's pretty clear which entry has won... :D

Many thanks to all participants and all who listened and voted!! )(~

rbowser-

02-05-2008, 01:39 AM

Cool, Sean

I think probably the majority would know what you mean by that definition of "cinematic music."

I'm not really saying it's a subjective description--I'm saying that since music for films can be of any style imaginable, to me "Cinematic" as a designation doesn't mean anything. To be true to the history of film scores--"Cinematic" would mean, "it's symphonic, or rock, or Rag Time, or Rap, or percussive, or classical, or Jazz, or electronic or...etc forever." In other words--it doesn't describe anything at all specific.

I think generally people are actually referring to symphonic film scores when they use that term, but--what about all the other kinds of scores?

--Movie music doesn't make us think about emotions and memories we associate with movies--it Is the music written for specific films.

-- I think what I'm saying is that what I notice when people describe something as "cinematic" - they're talking about just one particular cinematic style which has been popular for the last few decades, lush, often bombastic, Wagnerian, often Romantic - But there are thousands of film scores which are nothing like that. --Oh well, I just don't get it I guess.

"Cinematic" is as specific (not) as it would be to say that something is "Vinyl music--You know, the kind they used to put on Vinyl records"---when, of course, every type of music under the sun was put on records.

Hey - maybe I just discovered a new pet peeve. Yeah that's it I guess--because I honestly don't know what people mean by "Cinematic" and when they use the term, it's like they haven't said anything--even though I've probably used the term myself a few times. Actually when I see that phrase, it seems to me they're saying there's something cliche about the music--like "OH, it's big and broad like John Williams or something." And I certainly know of more than a few musicians who would be insulted if there was music was described as "Cinematic" in the modern, pop culture sense.

And so on.

Looking forward to a wrap on this Challenge, and hearing what arranger #7 has for a theme!---I wonder if it will be-->gasp<--CINEmatic--Naaah, it'll be Wyndom Hillish don't you think?:)

Randy B.

fiziwig

02-05-2008, 04:10 AM

englishgent

02-05-2008, 08:55 AM

englishgent

02-05-2008, 08:57 AM

Well, since I know I won't be getting anymore votes and the polling has been going for over two weeks, I will claim responsibility for Number 5.

I agree with Hannes_F that Number 7 was quite different and grab my attention right away. Whoever wrote this piece took to it to an unexpected realm. I really enjoyed it.

What a clever idea, incorporating that John Williams quote! Who would have thought that it would fit so well. It made me smile when I heard it.

It's a fine arrangement.

Owen

wrayer

02-05-2008, 12:03 PM

What a clever idea, incorporating that John Williams quote! Who would have thought that it would fit so well. It made me smile when I heard it.

It's a fine arrangement.

Owen

Ouch, I've been caught plagerizing! Ah well, best form of flattery they say! I only borrowed four measures judge...

Yes, I thought it fit the fanfarish type melody.

SeanHannifin

02-05-2008, 01:42 PM

Cool, Sean

I think probably the majority would know what you mean by that definition of "cinematic music."

I'm not really saying it's a subjective description--I'm saying that since music for films can be of any style imaginable, to me "Cinematic" as a designation doesn't mean anything. To be true to the history of film scores--"Cinematic" would mean, "it's symphonic, or rock, or Rag Time, or Rap, or percussive, or classical, or Jazz, or electronic or...etc forever." In other words--it doesn't describe anything at all specific.

I think generally people are actually referring to symphonic film scores when they use that term, but--what about all the other kinds of scores?

Similarly you could say "good music" doesn't mean anything to you because there are so many styles of it... but I do not think "cinematic" is usually meant as an objective description of style, especially since what style feels "cinematic" to you will be subjective. By this definition, you could have "uncinematic" film scores... film scores you certainly heard at the cinema, but didn't evoke the emotions you consider to be "cinematic". Similarly, everyone who is writing music today is writing "modern" music, by a certain definition at least, but the term "modern music" has come to mean different things to different people.

--Movie music doesn't make us think about emotions and memories we associate with movies--it Is the music written for specific films.

Well, only if you define it that way... again, I think the term has come to mean something different, even if it doesn't match the simple dictionary definition.

-- I think what I'm saying is that what I notice when people describe something as "cinematic" - they're talking about just one particular cinematic style which has been popular for the last few decades, lush, often bombastic, Wagnerian, often Romantic - But there are thousands of film scores which are nothing like that. --Oh well, I just don't get it I guess.

I don't know, from this I think you do get it, you just don't necessarily agree with the imprecise wording? :D I would agree that it is imprecise, but only because of its subjectiveness... if that makes sense. For the most part, I think it's safe to assume that the person using the word is indeed referring to the style you describe here... lush, bombastic, symphonic, Romantic, etc... but only if you care about a more precise description of style. But I think "cinematic" is meant to describe an emotional reaction more than anything else, like "good music" (though I'm sure there are plenty out there who may not judge music based on the emotions it evokes, which to me seems ... well ... stupid :D ).

schneb

02-05-2008, 02:29 PM

Similarly you could say "good music" doesn't mean anything to you because there are so many styles of it... but I do not think "cinematic" is usually meant as an objective description of style, especially since what style feels "cinematic" to you will be subjective.

Sean, you brought up some very valid points. What I mean by Cinematic (and as rbowser touched upon in his stimulating response) is that it evoked an emotional response and pictures within my head. OK, I will tell you that I too voted for #7 for just those reasons.

Yes, there are many genres represented in movies. For example, The Color Purple had many genres represented--Jazz, Blues, Gospel, and the film score itself. Each worked according to the scene assigned. However, the actual score is what I mean by "cinematic". The soft and tender melody that reprises throughout the film evokes an emotional response within my soul. Another soundtrack by Michael Kaman for the mini series Band of Brothers (http://schneb.googlepages.com/music12) can stand on its own without the movie. That piece, more than many, evokes so much emotion in both its melody and orchestration, that often I find myself on the verge of tears. This is what I mean by cinematic. That which brings up images and emotions, and as a film maker who devotes a great deal of money to a project, I would want music just like #7 to accompany it.

rbowser-

02-05-2008, 02:40 PM

hehe--You're a sport, Sean, trying to 'splain this to me. But I still stubbornly don't get it. You keep describing a very narrow range of film score music and saying you think that's what most people mean by "Cinematic"--and I'm saying that considering there is a huge depth of variety in film music, that doesn't describe anything specific at all. It's so vague as to be meaningless.

I understand that it's possible most people are thinking of only a specific and very modern style of film composing--but I don't know why they should do that, and I refuse to.

There are catch phrases to describe music which are all reductionist and over-simplifications, like "TV Sit com music"--we think we're describing something, but we're not, because like film scores, there has been a Vast variety of musical styles used for TV shows. We say "advertising jingle music"--same point applies.

I guess I don't like categories, even though they're handy points of reference, but they're such limiting, reductionist phrases that we're not really communicating when we use them. Someone could very well say "Randy, that was a very cinematic piece you wrote" and they'll mean it as praise, and I'll get That part --but I'll have no idea what they're really saying. Cinematic, as in what they used to play in silent film houses?--as in the big grand scores of 1930's adventure movies?--sophisticated symphonic jazz as in 1950's films?--whaaaaaat? I guess they'll mean that they think it would be nice as a film score---and my reply is, what Wouldn't make a nice film score?--Theoretically, ANy kind of music could work in a movie.

AND so on.

When does this challenge end? ---yawn----it's kinda Over isn't it?

Randy B.

rbowser-

02-05-2008, 03:14 PM

Excellent, - thanks for your new post, schneb.

You described very well what you mean, as did Sean. I appreciate it.

"...What I mean by Cinematic (and as rbowser touched upon in his stimulating response) is that it evoked an emotional response and pictures within my head. OK, I will tell you that I too voted for #7 for just those reasons..."

That's - Music. Music evokes emotional responses and conjurs pictures in our minds. It doesn't have to be tied to actual, literal visuals.

Most of the music ever written was composed before there were movies. Beethoven and Wagner, to pick out two Biggies, wrote highly evocative music before there were movies--it wouldn't be very appropriate to call their music "Cinematic," even though of course their pieces have been used effectively in film.

To me, insisting that good music which we have an emotional resonse to has to be filtered through our love of movies - it's an odd way to experience music which can Always be enjoyed on its own, without visuals.

Maybe we can say "Great Gaming Music" - and reduce music to yet another pop culture category.

Trying to think about whatever I personally might mean by saying something is "Cinematic"--#7 in this thread wouldn't be the one I'd choose on that basis. If I was narrowing my choices down to what I'd like to hear on a film score, there are probably 3 or 4 other pieces here I'd choose instead.---But, thinking of what would be nice coupled with a movie was the last thing I was thinking of when I listened to these arrangements. I was just hearing--Music, with all the emotional responses and imagery that music always conjurs.

GUYS---I thank you for the fun diversion this morning. I've been chewing on an especially tricky staging challenge on my show, diverting myself with this good conversation.

But Now--back to work with me!

Thanks again.

Randy B.

KE Peace

02-05-2008, 04:34 PM

Personally, I thought number 3 was dreadful!

I can say that because it was my entry. I did it just a week after first getting GPO. If I had waited until I learned a little more about how to use the software I probably could have made a better rendering of it. (Just thought I'd better go public with my excuse. :) )

--gary

Gary,

I thought it was hilarious! Out of all the entries, except for mine which I play anyway because I listen to / review my music alot, yours was probably the one I listened to the most, because it was very creative and very funny. In fact, I came close to voting for it because of that. Yours was in the top 3 or 4 for me, and it was a tough choice. Sure, in some ways it was not as polished as some others, but hey, this is a hoedown! It was certainly one of the most creative! One of my favorites, Gary!

schneb

02-05-2008, 05:12 PM

Maybe we can say "Great Gaming Music"

Have you ever heard the score in "Call of Duty 2"? Very cinematic. (Half joking, it is an incredible score, but wanted to dig in the genre again) ;)

SeanHannifin

02-05-2008, 06:22 PM

That's - Music. Music evokes emotional responses and conjurs pictures in our minds. It doesn't have to be tied to actual, literal visuals.

Most of the music ever written was composed before there were movies. Beethoven and Wagner, to pick out two Biggies, wrote highly evocative music before there were movies--it wouldn't be very appropriate to call their music "Cinematic," even though of course their pieces have been used effectively in film.

Oh, I'd say many classical composers' music could be very appropriately called "cinematic" ... in fact, I've done it before! :D Again, I use the word as a description of my emotional reaction, when music reminds me of the strong emotions I feel when watching a film with a score I emotionally react to. You're right, music doesn't have to be tied to such literal visuals... when it doesn't, it's not cinematic, by my use of the word. That doesn't mean I won't like the music or won't think it's good, I will just have a different emotional response to it.

Again, just like when people say "that was great music!", they're saying little about what kind of music it was, and is meaningless if that's the sort of meaning you're trying to get out of the statement. But it's a statement of opinion, of subjective emotional reaction.

To me, insisting that good music which we have an emotional resonse to has to be filtered through our love of movies - it's an odd way to experience music which can Always be enjoyed on its own, without visuals.

I don't want to speak for schneb, but I don't think he was insisting anything like that. Personally, there's a lot of music I don't hear as cinematic, yet love... like Mozart's. In a challenge like this, in which there's so much "good music", "cinematic-ness" as a "filter" is just as arbitrary a decision as anybody who voted in this poll who liked 2 or more pieces somewhat equally would have to make.

Maybe we can say "Great Gaming Music" - and reduce music to yet another pop culture category.

We could and people do, but I don't think such a description is any form of "musical reduction". Again, I think it would just be an emotional response, not an attempt to judge the worth of all music by that one criteria.

GUYS---I thank you for the fun diversion this morning. I've been chewing on an especially tricky staging challenge on my show, diverting myself with this good conversation.

Thank you, fun discussion! :D

EDIT: P.S. Have you ever finished watching a movie and said "gee, that wasn't very cinematic"? :D (Just like John Cage wasn't always very musical...)

SeanHannifin

02-05-2008, 06:48 PM

I guess I don't like categories, even though they're handy points of reference, but they're such limiting, reductionist phrases that we're not really communicating when we use them. Someone could very well say "Randy, that was a very cinematic piece you wrote" and they'll mean it as praise, and I'll get That part --but I'll have no idea what they're really saying. Cinematic, as in what they used to play in silent film houses?--as in the big grand scores of 1930's adventure movies?--sophisticated symphonic jazz as in 1950's films?--whaaaaaat? I guess they'll mean that they think it would be nice as a film score---and my reply is, what Wouldn't make a nice film score?--Theoretically, ANy kind of music could work in a movie.

But one could have a similar response when a listener says "I loved this piece of yourse!" ... one could respond "what exactly did you love? The orchestration, the melodies, the length, etc? There is so much you could have loved! Your statement of love is meaningless! Any kind of music is lovable!" One could always ask for more details about the listeners emotional response, but there's only so much we can explain about our own strange and unexplainable emotions, and who cares that much when a listener's complimenting you? :D

Ah, and yes, the voting is over...

Congratulations to the winner of Challenge #15, entry #7!! )(~)(~)(~

sanyarem

02-05-2008, 06:59 PM

Woo! Now who is it?!

rbowser-

02-05-2008, 07:11 PM

UNCLE!
I CRY UNCLE!

I get it about Cinematic now-I do I do I dooooo--I think of the term too literally, and when on the rare occassion when it passes my lips, I mean pretty much the same vague "sweeping" music described here. SO - UNCLE!

AND UNCLE to the arranger of the lovely New Age entry, #7. Very nice work!

I arranged Ken's semi-quirky 3/4, 4/4 etc. fanfare in a >gasp!< ----

CINEMATIC
way, as for a western movie - entry #1.

Congrats to all for a fine bunch of arrangements---and--uuuUUUuncle!

Randy B.

englishgent

02-05-2008, 08:51 PM

HA! I knew #1 had to be Randy's. I finally guessed one correctly. Although I'm sure that #10 has to be KEPeace?

OK, I'll own up to being the Windham Hillish submitter of #7. Although I had never heard of him (her?!) until this thread.

Well, I have to say I am completely in agreement with Randy over this one. As pleased as I was to have so many votes, I'm really not sure that I deserved them. I wasn't going to enter the challenge since I was getting no inspiration at all. Until right before the extended deadline, it suddenly occurred to me what a beautiful melody it was when played more slowly. So I cobbled together an arrangement in a spare evening, really just to present the tune in that way. I submitted it knowing that it was a far from stellar arrangement technically, not expecting to win at all. I was just happy to share what I had done, presenting it for what it was, hoping maybe some folks would enjoy it, and was going to be very happy if I got one or two votes.

I would say that all the other 9 arrangements have more going for them from an orchestration point of view. My favorite was #2 - even though I'm a sucker for a nice brass arrangement, I thought the writing was very fine in the faster sections.

Thanks to everyone for taking the trouble to listen to all 25 minutes or so of music - some several times - and offering your opinion.

Owen

Leaf

02-05-2008, 10:01 PM

Oh nooooo, i missed the voting, i haven't been around much lately busy looking for a job.%-

Congrats to Owen, your entry is GREAT!:samurai:

I just listened to half of them plus number 7, i like all of them so far and will listen to the rest tomorrow.

I spent my whole life not really liking country music, but now just recently i do sometimes and i think whoever did the banjo work did a bangup job. I loved it and i think if it had been posted at a country music oriented site, it would have received plenty of votes It sounded great and the string work gave it a nice facet i haven't heard much in CM.

David:hp:

edit: I just read your post Gary, i think it is well worth polishing, it isn't as bad as you said. i wasn't just saying that, i really enjoyed it.

rbowser-

02-06-2008, 01:12 AM

Hearty Congratulations, Owen!

That's fun, that you guessed me as doing #1--Guess that proves you've listened to me enough to recognize some of my signature sounds, whatever those may be--I'm flattered!

BUT HEY--I feel like you may have misinterpreted me--I haven't meant to ever say that your #7 didn't deserve the votes. I was just surprised there was one such clear favorite, since all of these really were well done arrangements of the theme. I would have thought the votes would have been more spread out. I guess you're just saying that you too are surprised.

But you clearly struck a chord--no pun intended - in the listeners. It's a beautiful recording of a very nicely orchestrated piece, and it's a neat, pleasant surprise in its approach to the theme.

No no, my friend, I think it's great that you're the Challenge winner. Your work on this is superlative--And I appreciate you recounting the story of how you came up with it. You were inspired!

I am curious - There was a vague reference to this before, and Ken "Rusty Crook" and I exchanged some emails about this months ago --Did anyone else besides me find the time signature to be more complex than the way it was posted?

It's been awhile, and I can't quite remember the details now of what I discovered--but the original theme was notated as 2/4 all the way through. But for the beats to fall correctly, I found it to be in several shifting time signatures.

My first task in arranging it into an orchestration was to make a few decisions which very slightly altered some note durations. I know I ended up with some 3/4, some 4/4, and maybe a 5/4.

It seemed like it was in free time with the 2/4 grid not quite matching, that's what I'm saying. I think Ken is happy with it being in 2/4--right, Ken?--but I can't understand the pulse of the theme in that sig.

Is it just me? Did anyone else do some adjustments, some re-notating in order to work with the theme? It's just a musical theory kind of thing I would find interesting to hear feedback on.

YAAAH OWEN--Excellent job! And a tip of the hat in thanks to Ken for coming up with the theme, to Sean for hosting the Challenge, and to Gary for hosting us all day in and day out.

Randy B.

sunbird

02-06-2008, 04:22 AM

http://picsgraphics.weebly.com/uploads/3/3/2/5/3325870/congratulations_owen.bmp

From the very first time I heard all entries there was no doubt in my mind that no. 7 would take it all!!!
I think its simplicity and clearness is what is so captivating to the ear.
It has also delicacy yet with a clear saying, very romantic and lovely build up, everything just sounding right at the right place.
I really admire your talent which seems to come so naturally to you.

And you never gave a chance for the rest of us…….

Another entry that for me stood out from the rest was no. 3 (yes, yours, Gary!)!!
It was so full of humor and very lively and it should have gotten voted for!
But since each had only one vote the results couldn’t show who liked which as well…

I enjoyed hearing all entries!!!
Each is composed with talent and has something special, and each is a winner!!!
Many thanks to you all!!!

For the sake of all entries getting a fair chance in the next challenges, I really think that each voter ought to get the option to vote for 3 different entries.

And now it’s time to reveal my entry:

http://picsgraphics.weebly.com/uploads/3/3/2/5/3325870/no_8.bmp

Ken, you gave us all a fine melody which could be easily adapted to many styles, as you can hear by the results.
I enjoyed very much working with it!
I just did a few changes and almost all the ideas came to me on the first day.
The middle section (for the second part of the melody) gave me some problems at first, so I put it aside for some time, and then one day my inspiration returned and I had the solution.

I am quite pleased with my composition, especially since it was my first time entry.
Thanks to those who voted for me, and I hope that you all enjoyed hearing it.

Yudit

germancomponist

02-06-2008, 06:10 AM

Congratulations, Owen!

I have listend to all entries and must say that there are interesting and good pieces. It was not easy to vote to only one piece, because only the composer had the film scene in his had. So we all listeners had to built our own film scene into our heads to any piece.... .;):)*()

Thanks to all who have composed to this challenge!

Owen, your piece has many feelings included, a good score for example to a sadly lovestory or something like this. ;) I like it! :)

Best,

Gunther

sanyarem

02-06-2008, 06:28 AM

Randy- I had the same issue with time signature. I felt it for the most part worked in 2/4, but I wanted to try something different. I found (with just minor changes in the base melody) that it fit pretty well into 6/8 time. As you would probably notice in my entry, #4. Though it sounds completely different, I believe I used every note in the order that was given in the original 2/4 time, some were just given longer durations than what was originally given. Besides that, I've been going on a ?/8 benge, so it was inevitable! :D Thanks Ken for the great time and congrats to Owen!

Raymond62

02-06-2008, 06:49 AM

Congratulations, nr#7. I listened again to this piece and, yes I loved it.
Now you must put another catching theme as the next challenge....

KE Peace

02-06-2008, 07:47 AM

HA! I knew #1 had to be Randy's. I finally guessed one correctly. Although I'm sure that #10 has to be KEPeace?

Owen, a hearty congrats from me! Your piece is very beautiful, and I never would have thought of doing it slowly like that -- it really works. A lesson for me to think outside the box, indeed. I am so happy to have our "English gent" in the challenge "hall of fame". And yes, you got me pegged -- #10 is mine. I love fanfares myself, so of course did it as one.

Warm wishes,
Karen

KE Peace

02-06-2008, 07:56 AM

For the sake of all entries getting a fair chance in the next challenges, I really think that each voter ought to get the option to vote for 3 different entries.

And now it’s time to reveal my entry:

http://yudit.sunbird.googlepages.com/no8.bmp

I am quite pleased with my composition, especially since it was my first time entry.

Yudit

Yudit, congrats on your first entry! It feels good, just doing it doesn't it? And I totally agree with you - 3 votes is good, especially when the entries are all so good, and there are vastly differing styles. Gary, I feel certain you would have seen many more votes on your very creative hoedown if we hadn't been forced to choose only one.

Karen

wrayer

02-06-2008, 08:50 AM

Congratulations Owen, very nice piece - I loved the way you weren't tempted to make it a fanfare!

Can't wait to hear what you come up with for us.

RichR

02-06-2008, 08:55 AM

I am the orchestrator of No. 6. The theme did have the ability to be used as a fanfare, "CINEMATIC", or as a ballad and many more ways. I choice to combine the fanfare style in the brass and a little of a ballad style in the woodwinds and strings. It was a sort of compare and contrast piece.

As for the winner:

CONGRATS, OWEN! (I'm green with envy)

I would never have thought to slow the whole thing down and developed it in such a gentle manner as that. That was excellent inspiration on your part. Don't ever be afraid to go with inspiration. A one evening inspired moment is as good or better than months of plain persperation and no idea! Thank you for entering and giving us a piece we can really listen to and enjoy!

englishgent

02-06-2008, 10:21 AM

David (Leaf): Thanks for the Samurai of appreciation! Glad you enjoyed my work.

Randy (rbowser): Don't worry, I didn't take it that you thought I didn't deserve the votes. You are right - I was as surprised as you at the distribution. As many others have commented, voting was a tough call. I appreciate your generous compliments.

As regards the time signature, I took it as a shift in accents in the melody rather than a change in time signature. A fact which I completely forgot while orchestrating - I hadn't looked at the original melody for quite some time when I did my recording. Only after submitting did I look back at the original and notice a couple of differences which I had forgotten. I guess my brain had automatically shifted a few beats and notes more to my liking.

....and I thought your entry was great! The ending especially was very powerful, with a nice trademark Randy modulation too!

Yudit (sunbird): Thanks for the detailed description of what you liked about my entry. I appreciate your encouragement.

So you were number 8? That was another entry that really stood out to me. The waltz idea really worked, and was skillfully orchestrated. Well done!

Gunther (germancomponist): I'm glad you liked my entry. I agree, there was not one entry that didn't deserve credit in some way.

Sanyarem: Thanks for the congrats. I loved your entry, although I was once again wrong on who I thought had written it. If "different" was a criteria for judging, you certainly nailed it! I thought it worked very well, and was exciting to listen to.

Raymond62: Thank you for your kind words. Hmm, will it be a catchy theme? Or will it be a microtonal pattern for 17 tuned office supplies??!!

Karen (KE Peace): That's very kind of you to say all that. Your entry was the only one whose author I was able to identify within 3 seconds of the beginning. Love those sparkley woodwinds! It had Karen written all over it.

wrayer: Believe me, I was tempted to make it a fanfare! I just couldn't make it work. You sure did, though, with your entry. Thanks for your appreciative comments. Hmm, I wonder what sort of melody I should do? I wonder what people want? Since this is my first challenge, I don't really have a feel for what's gone before, so I'm a little afraid that people might say "Oh no! Not another {whatever I do} style melody!"

RichR: Thanks for the wise advice and encouragement. I thought your entry was great. The faster sections had such drive and excitement.

Owen

etLux

02-06-2008, 12:06 PM

Congratulations on this absolutely beautiful work, Owen.
I wonder if you might take this further for us? Two
minutes of it was not even nearly enough for me!

With admiration,

David
www.DavidSosnowski.com
.

Larry G. Alexander

02-06-2008, 12:09 PM

You got my vote, old chap. By Jove, your work is absolutely beautiful. I have listened to it at least a dozen times.

Ripping!

My best,

Larry

KE Peace

02-06-2008, 12:51 PM

Hmm, will it be a catchy theme? Or will it be a microtonal pattern for 17 tuned office supplies??!!
Owen

17 tuned office supplies sounds like fun :D

(Gary, another sample library? Garritan EVERYDAY SOUNDS library...? traffic, elevator beeps and muzak, dogs parking, fast food buzzers, running bathwater, toilets flushing, laughter of many varieties, bar conversations, sports announcers, sounds of cooking dinner, birds chirping, trucks backing up, a cracking fire..... hmmmm:))

schneb

02-06-2008, 02:25 PM

Owen... pure genius to my ears. Awesome work. - Schneb

DPDAN

02-06-2008, 03:34 PM

Owen, you got my vote too.

Congratulations!

Dan

englishgent

02-06-2008, 04:11 PM

David (etLux): Thanks for your, as ever, generous praise. Hmmm, you've got me thinking about extending the piece. With the recommended length of 2 to 3 minutes, I didn't really have space to do any more than the two presentations of the theme. But it could be a very interesting project, that is if Ken (RustyCrook) would allow me to use his theme in that way.

Larry: Wow! Don't wear out the MP3! That's high praise indeed, that you've enjoyed it to that degree. Thanks for the kind words.

Schneb: I don't think anything I've ever done has been called "pure genius". Glad you enjoyed, and thanks for commenting.

Dan (DPDAN): That's an honor, coming from you, an undisputed Master in the field. Thanks so much!

Owen

Hannes_F

02-06-2008, 06:00 PM

Owen,

gratulations! You also did get my vote ... although I was really tempted by some of the other entries.

Which piano did you use?

My entry was # 2, and I did it like that because I wanted to write fanfares once in my life - and when if not with this theme. :D

Actually I was mildly shocked when I listened to my piece again in direct comparision to the others, because it was so low in volume, which made it really pale. Reason was that I obviously used too much dynamical range which presses the mf passages down and the p passages way down. Another learning step in regards of mixing here.

Hannes

RustyCrook

02-06-2008, 06:12 PM

Congratulations Owen!
Wow, your Entry #7 was exquisite! )(~)(~ I think one of the aspects which appealed to me was the plaintive expressiveness and the compelling realism of your performance. Your use of rubato and accelerando adds a delightful layer of complexity to a simple yet elegant tonal texture. The piano is played with a wide range of strike velocities which adds wonderfully to the performance. I can hear you pouring your emotions into this work and performance!

I also marveled at how effective the void created by your leaving out one downbeat note of the theme towards the end (1:31) was in increasing the dramatic tension. The brief pause where my mind wanted to hear that note made me take notice that things were winding down.

The bass-rich, velvety chord at the end gives a solid foundation on which you provide a convincing sense of closure.

Can you tell us a bit about your studio setup and what software you used to produce your winning piece? Which particular GPO instrument samples did you use? Please also tell us about your ambience settings.

As the winner of this Orchestration Challenge #15, it gives me great honor to pass the mantle of Theme Meister over to you for Challenge #16. Congratulations again, Owen, and we all look forward to working with your theme for the next challenge!

Regards,

Ken
(RustyCrook)

schneb

02-06-2008, 07:35 PM

My entry was # 2

Hannes, you came in a close second. If #7 had not knocked my socks off, I would have gone for yours. My only addition to this piece would be a nice, military snare. I could have really used such a fanfare when I did my WWII film entry for the television reality show "On The Lot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Lot)".

Schneb

germancomponist

02-06-2008, 09:15 PM

englishgent

02-07-2008, 09:31 AM

Hannes: I loved number 2! That was some powerful writing.

Thanks for your compliments. The piano used was GPO Steinway.

Ken (RustyCrook): I appreciate the detailed response of what you specifically enjoyed.

I also marveled at how effective the void created by your leaving out one downbeat note of the theme towards the end (1:31) was in increasing the dramatic tension. The brief pause where my mind wanted to hear that note made me take notice that things were winding down.

I can't take the credit for that. The note is there, just very quiet. Actually, missing it out completely would sound great - it's just a happy accident that I didn't strike that key hard enough for what I was intending. If I were to do it over, I would probably leave out that note and drop the RH piano chord down an octave and back up for the remainder of the phrase.

I'm going to put the info you requested in a new post.

Oh, and thanks for the mantle!

Owen

ericjm68

02-07-2008, 11:37 AM

Very nice Owen.

I would also like to know about your setup and what reverb you used.

Eric

englishgent

02-07-2008, 08:36 PM

OK, in response to several requests for a description of my "studio", here it is if you promise not to laugh. (It's woefully inadequate equipment held together with a good number of "workarounds".)

Samples used for my entry (in order of appearance):

GPO Steinway
English Horn Solo 1
Section 1st Violin Lush Mutes
Section 2nd Violin Lush Mutes
Section Viola Lush Mutes
Section 'Cello Lush Mutes
Section Double Bass Lush Mutes
Orchestral Cymbals (the sound that's on the Bb, that doesn't seem to do anything at first)
French Horns Overlay
Alto Flute

Reverb used:
Whatever is the default on KP2 when you apply Reverb. I just pushed the Wet up a hair but didn't change anything else.

My "studio":
Old Yamaha keyboard used as a Midi controller, with Edirol Midi to USB interface. Keyboard has no modulation wheel, so I use Midi-OX to convert the pitch bend (never could get the free MFX plugin to work).
Slightly-too-slow PC (1.6GHz I believe), which just about copes if you close everything else down and minimize all windows while playing back final mix
Maple virtual MIDI cables
Ancient (2002 I believe) version of Home Studio
KP2 running GPO (can't be loaded as a VST since my old Home Studio doesn't support - hence the virtual cables)
ASIO4YOU since my soundcard is rubbish and hasn't heard of ASIO
Audacity for recording final mix
Dog tugging at my pant legs just as I approach the most demanding passage
Did you manage to not snigger?
I record all my takes as live performances, then just tweaking the odd note or two in Piano Roll. If too much needs to be tweaked, I start the take over.

Hope this answers your questions.
Owen

RustyCrook

02-08-2008, 04:03 PM

OK, in response to several requests for a description of my "studio", here it is if you promise not to laugh. (It's woefully inadequate equipment held together with a good number of "workarounds".)

Hope this answers your questions.
Owen

Hi Owen,

Thanks so much for those details!

Hey, there's something to be said for having a system with "known issues" because at least you've got the workarounds down! :D And, it obviously hasn't stopped you from turning out beautiful music!!

I think I know the answer, but can you tell us why you just use the horn overlay as opposed to the other horn samples?

Thanks,

Ken