Orchestra rules question

[Ranger]

I understrand Gary has a section for this on his site, but I would like the old hands to answer this

What would you say ,would be the most often made mistakes when doing symphony arranging

[Skysaw]

This should be a good thread. I'd like to hear what others have to say as well.

Off the top of my head, I'd say:

Overuse of percussion, especially cymbals
Not varying the texture
No breathing places for winds
The dreaded "Everyone-must-be-doing-something-itis"

[bmdaustin]

I'll add: piano chord voicings for the strings and too often doubling the woodwinds with the strings. Another pet peeve of mine is arrangers who give violin parts to the clarinets. If they're going to double the ww's with the strings, I much prefer flutes = vln1, oboes = vln2, clarinets = viola, bassoon = celli. That makes life easier on everybody and sounds better, too.

[karvasika]

-don't write woodwinds too low: flute isn't audible if too low, oboe is quite loud below f1, but it's still loud in general, if the player isn't a professional

-be exact when writing crosspins: always specify the starting and ending dynamics and sometimes even the dynamic in the middle so that the conductor doesn't have to guess it

-be very exact when writing the score in general, think through every note and it's dynamic and write it there

-vary the texture often enough, don't stick to a single sound for too long (depends on the piece of course)

-when playing tutti, remember that brasses often overpower the rest of the orchestra so as a good rule would be to write one dynamic less for them as for the other orchestra

-think if something is actually possible to play, don't think players can play the same as midi can.

I'm not a pro, but this is something I've come across with.

[KE Peace]

All good points above (many of which i have goofed up on myself!). so I'll add a few things I've learned, sometimes from others, sometimes the hard way:

- For a full orchestral score, it helps me to turn off all reverb and listen to it dry for harmonic and rhythmic problems.

- Listen to each section (wood winds, brass, strings, etc) separately for volume balance and harmonic issues

- re: everyone must be playing (to which I am prone, I admit) -- if you write "tutti" alot, liberal but judicous use of dynamics is a good way to have different parts come to the fore at different times. I use the technique of fading one instrument out while bringing another in -- sometimes even on the same note, to gradually vary the timbre. So, you can have your tutti and eat it too :D

- Beware of losing the forward momentum - often, you can add just one or two notes in one part to keep the sense of it going. Vary the rhythms.

- Keep the mood or imagery you want always in mind, and write to that (it can change throughout a piece, of course, just know when it does!

- Learn to use the basic techniques of augmentation, diminution, imitation, retrograde and inversion to add interest to your piece while still leaving it sounding somehow familiar to the ear.

- Ask others to listen and critique when possible (eg in the Listening room)

- Listen to it til you're sick of it -- then you start hearing things that you'd like to change.

- When you're tired or can't get passionate about it, take a break!

- Trust your ear more than your theory.

- Some advice Dave S (etLux) gave me: listen to as much music you can, with a score if possible, especially music you don't like or "get" at first, to expand your ear. And take risks.

Some of that is not technical arranging advice, really, I know, but they have all helped me. Hope some of it is useful for you and best of luck!

Karen

[KE Peace]

ps - there are options in Finale to check ranges, too, as well as many other aides to composing and checking and formatting scores. (probably in most good notation programs as well). email me if you want to know more about that.

[karvasika]

- Learn to use the basic techniques of augmentation, diminution, imitation, retrograde and inversion to add interest to your piece

I'm actually unaware of these techniques, well, few of them. ^^ I know what imitation and inversion mean, but what are the others? Could you explain, even with few sentences what augmentation, diminution and retrograde mean in terms of composition techinques?

[KE Peace]

hey thanks JJ, i came back to offer an explanation, but couldn't have explained it better myself! When I started using some of them, i found it alot easier to write a piece -- after you have a motif or two, use a few of those and it's almost like the piece writes itself...

Then once you've got those under your belt you can move on to the more advanced techniques such as contemplation, perversion, and fermentation. ;)

"the demonstration you are about to see was done by trained professionals. Do not try this at home! :|:

[KE Peace]

oh and try to avoid using retrograde in sacred choral music, or if you do, at lesat make sure the words don't go backwards too -- people used to get burned at the stake for that in the not too distant past ;)

[danpowers]

Poor voice leading drives me crazy! :( Remember, each instrumental line is melodic, not just any old note in a chord.

[Skysaw]

Poor voice leading drives me crazy! :( Remember, each instrumental line is melodic, not just any old note in a chord.

I agree. A good way to make a quick check is to listen to each part separately to see if it would make sense by itself.

[etLux]

Remember always to write the ocarina parts in baritone clef:

http://library.thinkquest.org/C001468F/images/baritonec.gif

[KE Peace]

Remember always to write the ocarina parts in baritone clef:

http://library.thinkquest.org/C001468F/images/baritonec.gif

dang it! i have to re-work my whole score!!!!!

[Ranger]

After reading all the posts. I have a lot of homework to do. I've always relied on experienced people, this way I would save a lot of misery , You can say I'm a fast learner, so by listening to the masters, I tend to get to my goals quickly and enjoy my results

Thanks to all
Ranger

keep it coming!

[Matthew S Phillips]

These may already have been mentioned but just to reinforce:

1. Be VERY careful about doubling. Its a technique that should really only be used to make a particular line stronger, or give it a different timbre. Never double out of lack of something to do for an instrument. It would be better if it did nothing even in "bigger" sections.

2. When changing tempi remember that while MIDI can go from 86 bpm to 90 with no problem, humans aren't so precise. In live performance there is little chance of audible distinction between two tempi so similar. Adding more than just a bpm, like "Allegro con spirito" or "Adagio esspressivo" is always prefered.

3. Be careful with bowings on the strings. If you put more notes than possible under one bow direction (i.e. under one slur) your gonna tick off your concertmaster. I try to envision a string section actually playing the line. If I find my self imagining the "bow of infinate length" I try to rethink my slurs.

4. Timpani, even playing softly, is gonna add ten pounds! Same for contrabasses, tubas, etc. Don't be afraid to give them a break.

5. Be cognizant of the practical limits of the instruments. A flute can play High C, but it can't do it at pianissimo.

6. Use rehearsal marks.

7. Use good voice leading. It still matters!

8. Make sure your winds and brass have places to breathe.

9. If your're using alot of percussion, give them time to put an instrument down before they pick up another. If you're using mutes on brass instruments, give them time to put them in and take them out. If you're retuning the timpani, give the timpanist enough time to do so (At least 5 measures per drum to be retuned).

Hope that helps.

Matt

[trimpe]

There is already a lot of great information in this thread, so instead of rehashing, I'll share just a couple of things that are somewhat related but (at least in my mind) just as important.

Know your intended audience. When you are writing, the "rules" change depending on the level of the ensemble you are intending it to be performed by. Many people have stressed to not write a part just so everybody has something to do. As a performer in an ensemble, it can be easy to judge the value of a piece based on how interesting YOUR part is as opposed to how it fits into everything as a whole. People have also stressed not doubling for the sake of doubling. This is also true. However, if you are writing for a younger and/or smaller group, doubling may be necessary. I write a lot of music for high school level performers. Some high schools are very talented, others not so much. If you have a particular ensemble in mind for your music, make sure to take that into consideration.

Measure numbers. Personally, I use both measure numbers and rehearsal letters in my manuscript, and every printed work my publishing company puts out MUST have this. As a conductor, it's insanely valuable. While this has nothing to do with the actual music or scoring, when it comes down to people performing your work, you want to make their life as easy as possible so they can focus on your music instead of your editing.

Assume they will have to teach themselves. This may also come from the fact that I write primarily for younger groups, but I always make the assumption that the director is going to be struck by lightning or something like that and the ensemble is going to have to teach themselves. Articulations, phrasing, dynamics, tempo markings. You will be hard pressed to find pieces that have too much detailing done to them. What may seem obvious to us may not be to the performers or the director. Don't be afraid to spell it out for them.

Again, some of these things may be more or less relevant depending on the kind of writing you are doing, but they are pretty handy concepts that I have picked up through experience as both a writer and director.

[klassical]

Here's my favorite bit of advice:

Harps can't play chromatic glissandi and a String Quartet does not consist of a Violin, Viola, Cello, and Bass. You might be surprised how often these two come up on various forums.

Otherwise, I posted this link once. Thought it would also be appropriate for this thread...

Scroll down until you see the title.

"Well intentioned advice from a conductor to (young) composers" by Kenneth Woods

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/0...oor-composers/

[ALynn]

The most important rule to remember is that horns are capable of playinb more than held chords and off beats. ;)

If the organ is King of instruments, then the horns are certainly Princes, and should be written for accordingly. :)

[jpjohn1980]

Regarding Clarinets:
As much as you're told to double the clarinets with the violas, they hate that. It puts them in their throat register the whole time. As the woodwind with the most range both dynamically and note-wise (as well as the go-to blending instrument), they don't appreciate being relegated to "viola" of the woodwinds. They can be used as blending instruments for cello and horns. But this blend will make each sections sound less special.

Regarding Oboes:
Just because the clarinets and flutes can do those crazy runs, doesn't mean the oboes and bassoons can. You may need to weed out some of those flourishes. Not so good at blending - but great for giving a unique timbre.

Regarding flutes:
They can do crazy tonguing. Never under-estimate a flute player. Except when they are playing low. Then underestimate them. They won't be heard.

Regarding woodwinds in general: They like to play. But they also like big breaks. They aren't as big of "babies" as the brass ;), but they do need to have time to change those reeds or swab out the spit bubbles in their keys.

[ALynn]

Regarding flutes:
They can do crazy tonguing. Never under-estimate a flute player. Except when they are playing low. Then underestimate them. They won't be heard.

Regarding woodwinds in general: They like to play. But they also like big breaks. They aren't as big of "babies" as the brass ;), but they do need to have time to change those reeds or swab out the spit bubbles in their keys.

I always try to remember what I was told by a flautist once: "Flutes can do anything a trumpet player can do." (In regards to double, triple, flutter tonguing, etc.)

Brass aren't babies... it ist just very taxing to play loud and long all the time without breaks. It is why Mahler often uses little or no brass in the penultimate movement of his symphonies. It is also why playing Wagner is such a $#%*&@ for horn players - he has us play with the woodwinds as a woodwind and with the brass as a brass and we get almost no time to rest the chops! Insanity! Crazy man! :wow: But we love him anyway... :heart:

[Skysaw]

Another habit that is easy to fall into is relying on long sustained chords in places where they are not necessary. Often I hear interesting melodies and counter-melodies in a work with the chord progression plodding along with it in sustained instrument lines. While this can be the best approach in some instances, it can also be redundant, and even fill up too much aural space, taking away from the effectiveness of the more interesting lines.

It's a good practice to listen to how your arrangements work without certain elements to see if they are improved by excluding them. For clean writing, take Bach as an example. There are no superfluous sustained chords to be found anywhere. Everything is suggested by the melodies and counter-melodies themselves. This gives music space to breathe, and lets the ear hear the individual moving lines.

[danpowers]

Which brings up a good point: At least a basic knowledge of counterpoint is essential. (Which also supports my earlier point about voice-leading! :) )

[klassical]

"Flutes can do anything a trumpet player can do."

Yes, but they generally have enough manners not to.

- k

[ALynn]

"Flutes can do anything a trumpet player can do."

Yes, but they generally have enough manners not to.

- k

Or at least they don't brag about it to their drinking buddies (aka the trombone section) the day after... :p

[rfdillon]

Brass aren't babies...

They have to blow out their spit at some point:wow: