why not "virtual rack unit" for giga?

[drg]

If giga itself cannot use DX/VST plug-ins due to programming issues, why not create a program to work in conjunction w/ giga that allows users to route midi channels out of giga into a parallel channel on the new program which would house any of the DX/VST plug-ins wanted, and then back into giga to be mixed ect. Is this possible?

[SteveHanlon]

Hi,

What\'s wrong with using giga in conjunction with a sequencer that supports Direct X and VST. Almost everyone here does it that way. It works.

Just capture your giga midi as audio in your sequencer then apply your Direct X and/or VST plug-ins in the sequencer\'s tracks.

[drg]

audio is concrete where as midi is still at a stage where notes, dynamics, ect can be changed. If I could run the midi channels through a \"virtual rack\" I could see what I am dealing w/ and change things (orchestration, dynamics, ect...) accordingly until I get the desired result. The only way to do that with the method you are talkiing about is mult audio captures (after every edit). This might be alright for editing a pop song but for any composition that has thousands of editing moments it is not so good.

[Maarten Spruijt]

With a good soundcard you could \"route\" your giga outputs right into your sequencer, realtime (low latency) and apply effects there. Realtime.

[drg]

What soundcard? all 64 channels? Is there a sound card that makes available 64 virtual outs?
Thanks,
drg

[This message has been edited by drg (edited 04-14-2002).]

[drg]

there could also be HUGE marketing potential if the program could be used stand alone. People could run their inst through it live and use it/w a laptop in performances. Like a endless rack unit.

[donimon]

I run my Giga PC through Lighpipe into my Mac with Logic and Digidesign Protools Hardware to 4 stereo aux inputs. There I can apply any realtime FX to them. I usually run drums through verb/comp/eq, orch through a different verb, melody inst through all kinds of stuff. It works great. I don\'t think you can get workable latency with Digi stuff - altough you can pick up a d24 card for really cheap these days and it will run this setup fine.

[drg]

this sounds good, but there are tho computers involved and only 4 outs, not even close to 64. It would still be much easier if someone were to design a \"virtual rack\" for giga.

[Aqua Tarkus]

Maarten,
Does this mean that one could route the output of GIGA into VST and apply Direct X effects in REALTIME?!!!

i.e. No need to use Halion after all?

[clonewar]

Aqua, yes if you have soundcard that lets you route the output signal to the input signal internally you can apply VST or DirectX effects in real time. I use a Delta 1010 which lets you mix all of the output channels internally in the monitor mixer. Then you can choose the monitor mixer as an audio input in any audio recording program or sequencer. As long as the program you\'re using lets you apply effects to the incoming audio signal in real time then you\'ve got real time effects on your Giga sound.

[Tokyo Joe]

I\'m running Cubase with Delta 44. Could someone tell me how to implement the above scenario in Cubase?

Thanks in advance.

[Craig_L]

Clonewar,
Does this mean you can apply different reverbs to each of the Giga studios outputs (16 stereo outputs) or only the eight (4 stereo outputs) in the Delta sound card? Also, what sequencer are you using to get realtime fx playback?
Many thanks.
Craig

[clonewar]

Tokyo Joe,
I haven\'t used a Delta 44 but I believe that it uses the same Delta Control Panel software that the 1010 does so you should be able to use it the same way I use mine. In Cubase, one of the audio input options should be Monitor Mixer. The Monitor Mixer is the main ouput of all of the audio outputs on the Delta card combined, kind of like the \'Main Outs\' on an hardware mixer. When you record the signal from the Monitor Mixer in Cubase, it will record the audio from any of the audio outputs. So lets say you have Gigastudio assigned to Delta Stereo Outs 1&2 and you have the Monitor Mixer selected as the audio input channel on a track in Cubase, then when you record on that track any sounds coming out of Gigastudio will be recorded as audio. Its nice because you can record and edit the midi data first, then when its just how you want it you hit the \'Record\' button and while your midi track is playing the audio track is recording Giga, and they\'re both in perfect sync. And since its recording audio you can apply any real time effect that you want.

Craig,
Right now I\'m using Sonar. I\'ve always liked Cakewalk for midi and I like the loop tools that Sonar has but I\'m kind of disappointed overall with Sonar\'s audio capabilities, it does let you use real time effects though. I downloaded the 90 day full demo of Samplitude 6 and so far I really like it. I might get it to do all of my audio work and just use Sonar for midi and loops.
As far as applying the effects to Giga\'s outputs, using the method I said you cant apply different effects to the different outs in Giga in real time. You can only apply effects in real time to the total mix of all of the outputs. What I do is record one Giga output at a time into different audio tracks in Sonar and then mix the audio tracks.
You might also want to check out the Wamirack 24, the newest driver has Gigawire capability which lets you send out 8 channels of audio from Gigastudio straight into a VST sequencer. If that works like its advertized then you should be able to apply real time effects to 8 different channels of audio coming from Gigastudio. I had a Wamirack 24 before my Delta 1010 and had a lot of problems because of buggy drivers. The Gigawire function wasn\'t available at that time but I saw on their site that a new driver came out in March.

Mike

[Craig_L]

Many thanks for the info Mike. I just found out that StAudio\'s C-PORT will do much the same as the WaMiRack24 and is a lot cheaper -over here anyway. Craig

[Aqua Tarkus]

Hi Clonewar

This sounds really interesting. Thanks for writing up the theory. I have an M-Audio Audiophile 2496. Hopefully that should behave in the same way. I\'ll try it out and let the forum know as soon as I get a spare few minutes.

Tarkus

[Sapkiller]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Craig_L:
StAudio\'s C-PORT will do much the same as the WaMiRack24.. Craig<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'m not sure about that - I\'ve got a C-PORT
and it seems, that you have to route it
through digital mixer out to the sequencer - and so you end up with a stereo mix and not 8 seperates like the WamiRack.

But I haven\'t really been experimenting much with the issue - maybe I will to night, when
I get home.

I\'ll be back with the result later.

Bjk

[Craig_L]

Sapkiller, Many thanks if you can find out. I nearly bought the C-Port today. I\'m surprised at the lack of multi-output (8 or more) sound cards that are available.
Craig

[clonewar]

Craig,
I don\'t think that the C-Port has the ability to export 8 channels of audio from Giga to a VST sequencer like the Wamirack 24 does. The Wamirack has something they call \'Gigawire\' in their latest driver which lets you send the 8 channels of audio from Giga directly into your sequencer. They developed this just for use with Gigastudio and I believe its the only sound card out there that has that functionality. The Wamirack also has 64 channel MIDI (4 ins/4 outs) which makes it very attractive for Giga and other heavy MIDI users. Plus is has very high quality D/A and A/D converters, so you get a lot for the money with it. But, like I said, I had one and couldn\'t take the buggy drivers. My system was constantly crashing, under W98 and XP. I tried every tweak in the book, reformatted my drive several times, but couldn\'t get it stable. I think stability is the most important virtue in a DAW and I already had experience with Delta cards so I went with the 1010, I haven\'t had any problems with it. I would be interested to find out if the new Wamirack drivers make it more stable though. Having 4 MIDI ports was awesome. I had 2 keyboard controllers plugged in plus had my pc controlling my POD and Roland JV-1010 and still had 2 MIDI ins and outs to spare! I think a 4 in/4 out MIDI box is going to be my next purchase..

Sapkiller,
When you say that you have to route the C-Port\'s output through a digital mixer to the sequencer, do you mean an external mixer? Or does the C-Port have the ability to send the stereo output directly to an audio input using its internal mixer, without any cables? The Delta cards can do this, my old Terratec EWS64XL can do it also, but I\'m not sure what other cards on a market can.

Tarkus,
I\'d like to know if you\'re able to do what I said the Delta cards can do with the Audiophile. All you need to do to check it is to go into your sequencer and wherever you select the audio input channel see if one of the options is Monitor Mixer (or Delta-Monitor Mixer). If its there then you should be able to record the output of Giga straight into your sequencer using the Monitor Mixer.

Thanks!
Mike

[Sapkiller]

hi again
I\'ve been messing around with my DSP2000, but
haven\'t yet found a way to route several outputs simultanously. I have however posted
the quostion on the www.staudio.com (\"http://www.staudio.com\") Q&A forum
and awaits an answer.

Clonewar:
It\'s all done internal. the DSP2000 or C-port
has a driver called ADSP Digital Mixer, from which you can tap the output of the soundcard mixer.

Bjk

[Sapkiller]

I\'ve recieved an answer from staudio
and it is negative. You can only route
a stereo signal from the DSP24 mixer to
Cakewalk. But thats at least a usefull
feature.

There is off cause the possebility to connect
your 8 outputs of the DSP2000
box to the 8 inputs - but that requires D/A -> A/D conversion and a small amount of extra latency will be introduced - and care needs to be taken not to cause any feedback loops.

Bjk

[Aqua Tarkus]

Clonewar,

I\'ve just had a quick play and am not having much luck. The M-Audio control panel (within Control Panels) does allow you to change the routing to M-Audio Mixer from M-Audio Wav, but if I do this, there is no sound output either through Windows or through Cubase. Do I need to change it to Mixer in this control panel?

Also, Cubase only seems to find M-Audio Wav as a possible input/output. M-Audio Mixer doesn\'t seem to come up. Any ideas why? Should I be using a different sequencer, e.g. Sonar?

Cheers,
Tarkus.

[composer22]

Screw it.

Give me a LINUX DAEMON with a remote access GUInterface for configuring and loading performance data and I am set!

[RoedeBaer]

Hi all

I would really like to know how to exactly route the Giga signal inside Cubase so that I can add FX on it before recording the signal.
Example: I play a clean guitar sample from Giga and need to apply distortion, chorus and delay on it (WarpVST or reValverDX). Because these effects do highly affect the sound (and therefore the style I have to play the instrument) I need to apply it before I record the signal as audio. My problem is: I route the Giga signal via the internal mixer into cubase and see the LED-meter working on the input of the track I routed the signal to. But i can\'t hear the audio from inside Cubase but only from the Giga outputs (pre tape/pre FX). When I route the Cubase signal to the mixer to hear it post tape/post FX I instantly get a feedback because the original signal from Giga and now the Giga signal out of the Cubase mixer both are in the internal mixer now and therefore routed into Cubase again.
Does anybody has a solution for this?

Thanks alot in advance

Roede

[drg]

all of this posting is proof of the need of a \"virtual rack unit\" for giga. It would simplify things to no end and at least give users the option to trade the latency for workable processors if they so choose. Someone should just develop it- I dont think there are many users who WOULDN\'T buy it if it were available.

[Aqua Tarkus]

Has anybody got any further with this one?

I\'m looking at Sonar as a replacement for VST at the moment. Does anyone know how to select the audio input source in Sonar?

I have a DAT with about an hour\'s worth of Roland JD800 samples that I\'m dying to try with effects. Will post the Gigas if I can crack it.

[Aqua Tarkus]

Midiman technical support have just emailed me to say that it is possible to route the outputs of Giga internally through the Audiophile 2496 card into another sequencer to access Direct X effects.

The next question is - is there a program that can apply effects to an input signal and *monitor* them with effects in realtime. Or does one have to record the signal first?

Anyone?

[clonewar]

Hi Tarkus, it shouldn\'t matter what software you use to record the output of Giga (Cubase, Sonar, Logic, etc), they should all work basically the same. In Cubase, one of the options for audio input channel should be \'Delta - Stereo Monitor Mixer\'. You said that that wasn\'t an option...what options do you have to choose from to record audio input in Cubase? Choosing the Monitor Mixer as the audio input is the only way that I know to record the output of Giga straight into a sequencer. If Midiman tech support said that you can do it then I\'m sure it can be done with the Audiophile.
To choose the audio input in an audio track in Sonar just click in the In field and it will drop down a list of all available audio inputs to select from.

Applying the effects in real time before the audio is recorded is a different problem. So far I haven\'t been able to do this with the software that I use. That\'s one of the reasons that I use a POD with guitar libraries. Sonar lets you adjust the effects like Revalver in real time, but only after the signal is recorded.

DRG is right, we need these kinds of effects inside of Gigastudio, but I can understand why they\'re not available yet. Most Gigastudio users are interested in orchestral libraries, although with Gigastudio 32 out and the great guitar libraries that are available now that should change. Companies that have thought about making a virtual guitar rack for Gigastudio probably thought the market share was too small. What we really need is a DX to NFX or VST to NFX (or both!) plugin converter, like there is for VST to DX now. Then we could just use Revalver, or Amp Sim, or Warp, not to mention all of the great reverbs, eq\'s, etc!

Mike

[Aqua Tarkus]

Thanks clonewar

Here\'s the latest from Dan at Midiman (brilliant customer service, by the way.)

If you have a Preamp or Mixer connect your Main L/R Outs from the
Preamp or
Mixer to Inputs 1/2 on the Delta Audio board. Go to the Start Menu,
settings, to the windows control panel and double click Multimedia. Be
sure
that you have the Delta Audio board chosen as the Preferred Card of
choice.
Set Preferred Playback to H/W Out 1/2 and Preferred Recording to PCM In
1/2. If your Delta card has MIDI capability make sure you go to the
MIDI
TAB and choose the Delta Audio board as the Preferred MIDI device.
Apply
and O.K.
Now go to the Delta Control PanelPPC and Setup the Monitor Mixer. Put a
check in the Stereo Gangs or Links depending on what driver version you
are
using. Now un-mute and un-solo everything. Raise all Master Volume and
Mixer Ins and Outs to 00/red to the top. You can control the signal
input
source from the Mixer. Go to Patchbay Router and choose Monitor Mixer
on
the first column from the Left to Right. Then on the very next column
to
the right select H/W In 1/2. Now go to the Hardware settings Panel and
select the Internal XTAL/Clocks and sample rates. MultiTrack Driver
Devices/Independent. DMA Buffer Size should default to 20mil. Select
44.1
and check RATE LOCKED. DO NOT CHECK RESET RATE WHEN IDLE. Now save the
panel and name it. Go in and throw up some Audio.

ALL DIGITAL PANEL
Go to the Start Menu, settings, to the windows control panel and double
click Multimedia. Set Preferred Playback to S/PDIF/WavOut and Preferred
Recording set to S/PDIF IN. Then Apply and O.K. Now go to the Delta
Control
Panel and Setup the Monitor Mixer. Put a check in the Stereo Gangs or
Links
depending on what driver version you are using. Now un-mute and un-solo
everything. Raise all Master Volume and Mixer Ins and Outs to 00/red to
the
top. You can control the signal input source from the Mixer. Go to
Patchbay
Router and choose S/PDIF IN under H/W Out 1/2 on the first column from
the
Left. Then on the far column to the right select H/W Out S/PDIF to be
WavOut S/PDIF.

Now go to the Hardware settings Panel and select Clocks and sample
rates to
be S/PDIF IN. MultiTrack Driver Devices should be set to Single and
In-Sync. DMA Buffer Size should default to 20mil. Select 44.1 and check
RATE LOCKED. DO NOT CHECK RESET RATE WHEN IDLE. Go to the S/PDIF TAB
and
select \"PROFESSIONAL\".