Jazz Guitar soloing

[voxosoxo]

anyone put me on to a good sample Jazz guitar cd...Single notes..whatabout an L5 .id like something approaching the Wes Montgomery sound..course he played without a pick,used his thumb..best sound ever in my humble opinion...anything around resembling this sound ..any jazz afficianados let me know......thanks......

[Damon]

It\'s an older library, but Hans Zimmer Guitars 2 has 2 great jazz guitars, both fingered and pick. It also has jazz octaves as well http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif.
When you strike a note hard, you get a natural slide also.



[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 04-13-2002).]

[Bardstown Audio]

\"Vintage Jazz Guitars and Tenor Banjos\" from Bardstown Audio.

There are electric and acoustic multiple layer electric and acoustic Gibson L7 jazz guitars, with both pick and thumb sampled versions. Each and every note on this collection has been sample recorded without the use of any pitch-shifting, as with all instruments produced by Bardstown Audio. There are also release trigger samples on all of these beautiful instruments as well, which are vitally important in order to produce the true character of sound of these beautiful instruments. The electric version of the Gibson L7 is the same acoustic L7 with a floating DeArmond pickup, which is the ultimate electric jazz guitar sound, considering the top of the guitar has not been butchered in order to install pickups. Many of the real jazz guitar pros use this method of electric jazz guitar amplification because of the more resonate and raw sound of the guitar with the complete un-butchered spruce top being able to resonate.

You can check out MP3 demos of this guitar, which feature electric, acoustic, pick, and thumb versions on the MP3 page at www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

I assure you that no other sampled jazz guitars on the market come anywhere close in quality and authenticity of realism as the \"Vintage Jazz Guitars and Tenor Banjos.\" I produced this much needed jazz guitar instrument library because no other sampled jazz guitars on the market come anywhere close in producing the necessary quality that is much needed. While you are on my web site, read the \"user comments\" as well, which pertain to these beautiful sampled guitars.

I personally have the Hans Zimmer Guitars Volumes 1 & 2, and I can assure you that the sampled jazz guitars produced by Bardstown Audio are much more authentic and realistic.

Kip
Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")



[This message has been edited by Bardstown Audio (edited 04-13-2002).]

[Franky]

For Jazz solo guitar, there is only one real choice and that\'s Kip\'s Vintage Guitars and Tenor Banjoes, that\'s exactly what you\'re looking for, you won\'t be disapointed.

kind Regards
Franky
Vintaudio Prod. www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")

[thesoundsmith]

I have to start by saying I don\'t own the product, so this is NOT authoritative, but the reason I don\'t own it is that I have listened to all the demos, and don\'t hear the tone and sustain I need for smooth jazz/contemporary jazz/pop guitar. This is purely opinion, but it\'s based on years of being considered a pretty good fake-guitar-on-keyboards player.

FWIW, I would not feel obliged to write this if current licensing allowed refunds or resale. (NOT A FLAME ABOUT LICENSING, PLEASE, JUST A FACT OF LIFE. I understand the issues involved, but this is one of the side-effects.) All we have to go by are the demos provided by the developers, and if I don\'t hear what I am looking for, I have to assume the library won\'t do what I need it to, no matter how high the quality.

And every time the topic comes up, I\'ve had to bite my tongue (fingers?) because I\'ve wanted to say this. But time has passed, and I still haven\'t heard a believable contemporary jazz or smooth-jazz guitar, so I\'m posting this.

I have been looking for a contemporary jazz guitar since I bought GS, and so far, have not heard one that works for me.

I\'m sorry, but I can\'t agree with Franky and Kip about the Bardstown guitar (I wish I could, because from what I\'ve heard in the demos, it is a technically excellent library. Kip, I\'m not trying to slam your product, and I hate the thought of costing a developer a sale, but please read the rest of this post. If you can show me I\'m wrong I will be extremely happy, apolgize profusely and publicly and put my money where my mouth is!)

Bardstown\'s Guitars (BG) is a VINTAGE library, and as such, does a wonderful job of producing Djanjo and Charlie Christian-type solos and comps. The demos I\'ve heard show a warm, woody, sweet guitar character that fits this style (hot jazz, 30\'s-era jazz) perfectly.

But time has marched on, and jazz of the thirties does NOT sound like jazz or smooth jazz of the 80s on up. Larry Carlton is my reference point for contemporary jazz guitar. Also George Benson, who emulates Wes with the octave technique, sometimes, but also plays single line solos, and the timbre and intonation of those guitars is radically different than the archtop-with-DeArmond sound. The Carlton sound played in octaves gives a good Wes effect (and by the way, sampling the octave style doesn\'t work, I\'ve tried something like this several times. The time between notes (strings) has to adjust to tempo and phrasing, something a sample cannot do. You\'ve got to play the octave yourself.)

Contemporary jazz guitar has a more compressed sound, with longer sustain and warmer tone than anything I\'ve heard from demos of the BG library.

Kip, if you can create a good Larry Carlton type demo and prove me wrong, please do so. I don\'t like to feel like the bad guy, and really don\'t want to interfere with your sales. You do excellent work. This is strictly an issue of taste, not quality. But an archtop with DeArmond will never sound like an ES-335 thru a Dumble Super Overdrive amp.

I have downloaded all of your demos, and listened closely, to see if there were some way I could engineer the tonality I need into the samples. But I don\'t hear the length of sustain, or the basic roundness that I associate with the Carlton tone.

Part of this may be stylistic on the part of the demo performers. The demos have a \'standards-oriented\' sensibility that differs from the contemporary, electric/electronic melodic approach. If you have some smooth-jazz young lions at your disposal, perhaps ask one of them to do a demo.

But contemporary jazz guitar samples have to sustain for 5 seconds or longer. A real guitar can use feedback or compression for extra sustain, but we can\'t hold GS up to the amp to make it sustain longer.

Kip, if you feel I\'m unfairly characterizing your library, I apologize. I have no intention of attacking you, or your credibility, or that of your products. I have nothing but respect for you personally, and for the work you do, based on what I\'ve heard and read on this forum. I am being as objective as I know how, and as I said, would love to be wrong (I really need a good contemporary electric jazz guitar for smooth jazz production.)

As I said at the beginning, this is about individual taste, and artistic choice, not product quality. You\'re welcome to email me privately if you wish, or respond on the list, or just ignore the whole thing. I don\'t need to dialogue about this, but I\'m willing to, if you\'d like, either on the forum or privately.

And if you want to add a contemporary ES-335 library to your collection, I\'d be happy to beta!

Dasher (davidk@thesoundsmith.com)

[Franky]

I dunno Dasher...
I am basing my opinions on actually playing with the library, not only on demoes... also nowhere does Kip claim that his library is anything else than it is, VINTAGE archtop guitars.

You say you can\'t agree with me and Kip, can you point me to another library that does vintage archtops better than this one ?

Maybe it doesn\'t do Modern jazz like you want it too, but this library gives EXACTLY what it says it does, Vintage Archtops and Tenor Banjoes, and i can tell you the tones that have been captured in this library are flawless, and of course it all comes down to personal tastes, to say you don\'t like the library is fine but it does do what it claims and that is deliver high quality VINTAGE Archtops guitars and tenor banjoes.

Also i\'m not an expert but didn\'t the guy ask for a Wes Montgomery sounding jazz guitar ?
Correct me if i\'m wrong but Wes montgomery played in the 40\'s up to the 60\'s right ?
So wouldn\'t Kip\'s library be EXACTLY what the guy is looking for ?

Franky
Vintaudio Prod. www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.cintaudio.com\") http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif




[This message has been edited by Franky (edited 04-13-2002).]

[Bardstown Audio]

I might also add that Wes Montgomery did not play an ES-335, which is a semi-hollow body thin-line guitar. Wes Montgomery played a Gibson L5, which has the exact same specs as a Gibson L7, which is the guitar that is featured on the \"Vintage Jazz Guitars and Tenor Banjos\" Collection... The L7 has the same body, dimensions, bracing, spruce top and maple sides and back, and same scale length and neck as the L5. The only difference between a L7 and a L5 is the inlay on the headstock and fingerboard.

Furthermore, Wes Montgomery did not play through over-driven amps. In his day, he played through warm and undistorted sounding tube amps. Also, you cannot compare Larry Carlton\'s sound to the sound of Wes Montgomery.

Furthermore, there are many contemporary jazz guitar musicians who are playing Gibson L7\'s, L5\'s, and Super 400\'s. These archtop guitars are still very much in production by the Gibson Guitar Company, and many jazz guitar musicians consider these guitars to be the \"holy grail\" of jazz guitars.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[thesoundsmith]

Franky, you are repeating exactly what I am saying. This is a VINTAGE guitar library. There is none better that I have heard. I agree with that statement entirely.

But my comments are due to Kip\'s assertions that this is the best CONTEMPORARY jazz guitar. That\'s where I have a problem. You own the disks, so you have a more authoritative position regarding what it can and can\'t do. I don\'t own it, and have no way to determine if it truly can suit my needs EXCEPT listening to the demos. So my comments are relative to the demos. That\'s all they can and will be until either a) someone I know purchases the library and lets me come over and play around, or b) someone puts up a demo with that library that shows me it is possible to achieve the tonality I\'m seeking, or c) someone firds a logical way out of the licensing impasse we\'re currently in.

I own a few libraries now that I bought because I believed the claims, or liked the demos, only to find that while they are well-produced, they are not suitable for my uses, which include live performance. I won\'t do that again if I can avoid it.

To both Kip and Franky - just because something is extremely well done, does NOT mean it is the answer to all styles of music.

And to Kip-I\'m afraid you\'re taking my comments more harshly than I intend.

True that Wes did not play the 335. I was referring to Carlton, and his specific rig.

My former guitarist, Bill Courtial, also played an L5 and later an L7, but he had the same Carltonesque sustained sound that I am looking for. The sound and \'attitude\' of an instrument depends greatly on who plays it, as well as the entire chain of sound from the hands of the guitarist to the bits on the CD.

My point is NOT to disparage your library-I thought I made that clear. I think you have a great-sounding guitar, for that genre and era of instrument.

What I am saying is that the demos you have provided do not sound like what I consider to be the current warm, fat contemporary sound, which is nore reminiscent of Carlton than Django. If your guitars are capable of producing this Carltonesque ambience, please show us. I will apologize and spend money. If you can\'t do this, then understand what I\'m saying. All I have to go by is what you let us hear. Words are meaningless, only the end result has validity (and some of that is, of course, MY responsibility, to bring that character out of the samples. Acknowledged. But no matter the quality of the Kobe beef, you can\'t make a lamb stew out of it.

There are many schools of guitar tone, from Django to Jim Hall to Charlie Hunter, and all this without talking about the whole rock/metal side. No one correlated library set (where the samples are of a genre) can reproduce the entire spectrum of electric guitar tonality.

You say there are many jazz guitarists who consider the sound you get as the Holy Grail. No doubt, no question. But these are not the guitarists I\'m trying to get MY guitar sound to sound like. And when I play your demos to other musicians in this area who play the kinds of music we do, I get a similar reaction-it\'s not just me.

There is no standard identifiable vocabulary to adequately and accurately discuss timbre. The words don\'t exist-they don\'t have to, you just listen. You can use phrases like bright, warm, fat, smooth, clean, thin, etc. but 5 seconds of listening quantifies it exactly. When I try to explain to you why the timbre does not work for me, I have apparently hit a hot button. Sorry about that. It\'s not meant to be a negative, it\'s meant as an explanation.

What I\'m being critical of, if that\'s what it is, is that you feel that your product has the only true jazz guitar tone. And I don\'t agree. I don\'t want my jazz guitar to sound like Segovia, or Hendrix, or Django, or Freddie Greene, or Steve Vai. These are all perfectly valid examples of unique \'guitar\' timbres and tonalities, but do not address my needs.

The demos you have published have a sound which is reminiscent, to me, of an earlier age of electric guitar. This is not a put-down, or an insult-at least it\'s not meant to be. It\'s simply a recognition of the fact that jazz has a very broad definition, and a wide scope of timbres.

I want a smooth jazz, Carlton tone. That\'s all I\'m saying.

Sorry if that upsets you, but if I don\'t ask for what I want, I know for a fact I will never get it. I also know that if I buy the product, and it doesn\'t satisfy my needs, I\'m stuck. I can\'t send it back, can\'t even resell it.

But worse, I\'ll be tempted to \'make it fit\' where it really doesn\'t, just because I HAVE it and don\'t want to spend more money on another library that duplicates what I already, in theory, own. And then the quality of my music is degraded, because my personal vision is not fulfilled. And then I lose sales, and credibility.

So please understand, this is as important to us as buyers as it is to you as developers. (Otherwise why would there be so MANY GS pianos out there? Including yours...)

Peace, guys. No insult or slam intended. Try to see that.

Dasher

[Bardstown Audio]

Hello Dasher,

I never claimed that my \"Vintage Jazz Guitars\" are suitable for modern jazz fusion straight out of the box, though with some amp simulation effects such as \"Revalver, Amp Farm, chorus effects, etc., they very well could be.

Bruce Richardson stated that these \"Vintage Jazz Guitars\" are very well suited for many different sounds and styles, considering these sampled guitars are excellent original source material that can be used for further effects processing by the end user in order to achieve some astonishing results.

Out of the box and without any further effects processing, these guitars are certainly very well suited for Wes Montgomery music styles.

Kind regards,

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[KingIdiot]

I think the tone on Kip\'s vintage Guitars CD is phenomanol...or however oyu speeel it

Demo\'s at the Bardstown site dont do any of his libraries justice in waht they really could do IMO. In fact I was not impressed with any of them for a long time. when I go tthe libraries I started to dislike the demos even more.

However I do hear more of a vintage sound when I play them, still the tone of the library itself drives a bunch of inspiration.

not being a contemp jazz listener I wouldn\'t be able to tell you if they fit or not.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Franky]

Dasher, i understand you weren\'t trying to bash Kip\'s library, but again perception is the key word here.... the guy asks for a good Jazz guitar library that sounds like \"Wes Montgomery\" and Kip comes in says try my library VINTAGE archtops, i say yes this is exactly what you\'re looking for and then you come in and write a page long post about why you dont like the library when you dont even own it and say that we\'re wrong telling the guy this is what he needs Quote : \"I\'m sorry, but I can\'t agree with Franky and Kip about the Bardstown guitar \"

Now there\'s where perception comes in, see what i\'m trying to say ?

It just turns the thread into something it shouldn\'t be unless you would actually own the library and have come to the conclusion it isn\'t good which is not the case, but come on just by listening to the demoes ?

I\'m sorry but if someone doesn\'t own a library he cant just come in and write a dissertation why he doesnt like it when he hasn\'t even tried it IMHO.....

Again, imho It just turns the thread into something other than intended, you could\'ve instead started a thread like \" looking for the ultimate contemporary ES-335 kind\'ve Jazz guitar library \", and debated the subject there, coming in a thread where the guy asks EXACTLY for a sound like the one in Kip\'s library and saying it is not what YOU want and saying the sound is dated and bla bla bla, probably didn\'t cost Kip a sale but maybe it did and that\'s wrong because you don\'t have the library, you are not looking for this perticular kind of sound (voxosoxo seemed to be) and therefor can not have an objective opinion about it and that\'s what i mean when i talk about perception , however good your motives were bottom line this is what happens.

Franky
Vintaudio Prod. www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")



[This message has been edited by Franky (edited 04-13-2002).]

[Jake Johnson]

Hate to jump in and confuse the issue by disagreeing and agreeing with everyone, but this subject cuts too close for me to ignore.

None of the demos I\'ve heard from any of the sample creators remotely resembles the sound of a hollow body guitar. (Not sure why. Maybe miking techniques--miking too close or too far from the amp. A very thin sound, regardless, when compared to the sound of a good guitar coming through a god tube amp. I suspect that the sampling was done with the guitar at a relatively low volume. No overtones, no sustain. They all sound as if the tubes hadn\'t been given time to warm up. Part of the problem amy also be that the slight vibrato that guitarists use on almost any note other than 16th notes isn\'t captured.)

On the other hand, Larry Carlton???? Not a jazz player. Not someone with a guitar sound. The Kenny G. of the guitar. Sorry to sound insulting, but I cringe when I hear this name anywhere near the word jazz. In heaven, Joe Pass weeps.

[Franky]

Jake, the demoes don\'t do enough justice to Kip\'s archtops library in terms of tube warmth, it really sounds tuby to my ears and look at what equipment Kip used to make the library http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


Franky.

[Bardstown Audio]

Perhaps I should explain what an archtop guitar is, for the sake of people who may not be familiar.

First of all, an \"archtop\" guitar is a different sort of guitar than the usual \"flat top\" guitars. A \"flat top\" guitar is just what it says... it has a perfectly flat top with a round sound hole in the center of the top. On the other hand, an \"archtop\" guitar has a hand carved curved top with \"f\" sound holes, just like a violin, viola, cello, or double bass.

A \"flat top\" guitar has a very distinctive sound, which is characteristic of its design. An \"archtop\" guitar has a very distinctive sound as well that is very characteristic of its design, which is different than the sound of a \"flat top\" guitar.

Rather than going into great detail in order to attempt to explain the difference in sound between a \"flat top\" and an \"archtop\" guitar, it may be easier to indicate which styles of music are more suitable for each guitar style, though both \"archtop\" and \"flat top\" guitars may be equally well suited for some of the same music styles.

I will talk in terms of acoustic flat top and acoustic archtop guitars only, without reference to electric archtop guitars, which are different than the acoustic archtop guitars.

In a very general sense, \"flat top\" guitars are used in a lot of contemporary pop and country, folk, blues, etc., though an \"archtop\" guitar may work equally as well and maybe even better in some cases.

Acoustic \"archtop\" guitars are extensively used for both rhythm and solo in older jazz, older country, western swing, ethnic, plus much more.

Electric archtop guitars are used in the same styles of music as the acoustic archtop guitars, plus they are also extensively used in more modern and contemporary jazz as well.

I have stated the differences between flat top and archtop guitars in a very general sense. If time permitted, I could spend several hours writing much more on this topic in greater detail.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Bardstown Audio]

QUOTE FROM JAKE JOHNSON:
\"I suspect that the sampling was done with the guitar at a relatively low volume.\"
END OF QUOTE:

__________________

All of my sampled instruments, which I have produced, have been sample recorded at or near 0 dB without clipping, and with the highest quality professional audio equipment available, and in a great sounding room, in order to achieve the hottest signal and highest quality possible.

Jake, I remember that you were one of the few people who was critical of the \"Bosendorfer Imperial\" when I released it in January. It therefore makes me think that you have some sort of an agenda, now that you are coming onto this topic and being critical of the \"Vintage Jazz Guitars.\"

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[thesoundsmith]

Kip and Franky, (and list at large,) I do apologize for stirring up a bit of a hornet\'s nest. I did this out of frustration-Kip, every time you discuss your library, it\'s as though there is only one valid sound for jazz guitar, and anything else is inferior.
I quote:
\"I produced this much needed jazz guitar instrument library because no other sampled jazz guitars on the market come anywhere close in producing the necessary quality that is much needed.\"

I\'m really sorry that the other developers are so boorish as to produce inferior product...

Jazz covers a LOT of territory, and there are people who believe that nothing created after King Oliver is REAL jazz. Others cite Bird, Trane, etc. as the defining moment and cutoff point. I ask, \"What do you think of the Miles Davis electronic projects?\" This always gets the beboppers foaming at the mouth. And I don\'t book them for gigs..

Franky-you said, \"I\'m sorry but if someone doesn\'t own a library he cant just come in and write a dissertation why he doesnt like it when he hasn\'t even tried it IMHO.....\"

I was VERY careful to point out that I don\'t own the library, and that I am basing my opinion on the supplied demos. I believe in informed opinion, and in my right to extrapolate from statistical sampling of available data-in this case the demos. I did not post this to cause trouble, or to diss the library or the developer. I did this because I have a strong opinion on the suitability of this particular library for this particular task. And it becomes a dissertation to attempt to prevent this very situation-would you have preferred that I simply said, \"This library is unsuitable for modern music\" and signed off? That would have been irresponsible and unfair on my part, and also quite inaccurate. I\'ll say again, based on the demos, this appears to be a well-crafted, playuable library-just not for

Do you seriously think it\'s OK to make unsupported claims about non-returnable products? All I can base my opinion on is what I am allowed to hear. And if you\'re going to tell me I have to spend money before I have the right to an opinion, I\'ll be polite and just say you\'re 100% wrong. This is a forum, not an advertisement. I have read many, many posts from Kip about how great this library is. I have listened to the demos many times, which is ALL I\'m permitted to do for free (or no risk) and have heard NOTHING that sounds remotely like Wes Montgomery, either in style or tone. This is only one man\'s opinion, but it\'s an informed opinion, based on many years of performance.

Voxosoxo wants recommendations-He\'s made 12 posts, and this says to me he probably has not been using Giga very long. So I\'m recommending that he listen really hard to anything he\'s considering purchasing, because he\'s stuck with it forever.

If you don\'t like my opinion, I\'m perfectly willing to be proved wrong. Create a demo that shows off the Wes style and sound.

Really, I don\'t want to step on your business, or anyone\'s. But until purchasers have reasonable recourse, caveats are ALWAYS in order. As long as you feel it is ethical to use this list as free advertisement to promote your wares, (and I don\'t disagree with that, I want to know what is going on with new development,) I feel it is ethical to respond in kind. In kind means, in this case: you have made a claim that your product is suitable for a particular task. You have offered glimpses of the product which purport to show the suitability of the product for the task. My analysis does not agree with yours. You have a vested interest in the potential customer\'s agreeing with your viewpoint. I have no interest either way-my only concern is that the product live up to the advertising, as I have a number of products on my shelf that did not. I have no desire to see either side get burned.

Voxosoxo, listen to the demo, not the rhetoric-this is three guys with two differing opinions, and has NOTHNG to do with the music. Listen past the performance, and the musical genre-listen to the sound of the samples. If this gives you what you need, buy the library. If not, don\'t.

And if someone out there who owns this library has created something Wes-like they\'d be willing to share, PLEASE post. I\'ve got Kip and Franky mad at me, and while it truly was not intentional, I understand why they feel this way. But what they don\'t understand is-I WANT TO BE PROVED WRONG! (That means with music, not clever verbal barbs. For me, it is always and forever about the music. I may not be a great musician, but I\'m serious about it...)

Dasher

[Franky]

Informed opinion my *** ....

You are making that statement by analysing samples of the demoes, come on....
Even if you Tell everyone you are only analysing the library by the demoes doesn\'t make it right...

Quote :\"Kip and Franky, (and list at large,) I do apologize for stirring up a bit of a hornet\'s nest. I did this out of frustration-Kip, every time you discuss your library, it\'s as though there is only one valid sound for jazz guitar, and anything else is inferior.\"

Geez man get a grip, he sells Vintage archtop guitars what\'s he supposed to say ?
\"Well these guitars may be what you need but maybe not, in order not to offend anyone\'s particular view on jazz guitar, i will not say it\'s good in any style but that it may be good..... bla bla bla \"

If someone\'s looking for good Vintage Archtops and HE likes what he hears from the demoes, what the hell is wrong with that ?

I mean come on, you have the right to not like the library, but to write page long posts saying you don\'t like the library when it\'s clear you arent even looking for this kind of guitar sound in a thread where someone is looking exactly for the sound Kip\'s library provides sucks *** .

Quote : \"you have made a claim that your product is suitable for a particular task. You have offered glimpses of the product which purport to show the suitability of the product for the task. My analysis does not agree with yours.\"

Again, analysis by demo....

This is all i\'m going to write on the subject, you will never convince me that you can analyze a library as in depth like you did by simply listening to demoes, also it\'s clear from the get go you don\'t like this particular kind\'ve jazz guitar, you\'re into ES-335 which is also a great guitar, but worlds apart from what Kip is offering, so you are biased from the beginning and will never like the library whatever we say so the discussion is pointless, we can all agree you don\'t like the library and leave it at that and move along geez.....

Franky
Vintaudio Prod. www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")

[voxosoxo]

quote from Zafar Saoods essay on the wes sound.`The basis of the Wes sound lay in the way the string vibrated after being stretched,then released by the flesh of the thumb.Similar in fact to the Lutenists,the lute has a timbre by virtue of its construction,that would sound thin if played with fingernails or plectrum,because we would hear the higher overtones dominating the fundamental with a more pointed sound.The main reason his sound was so fat was due to the fundamental (overtone series) given more amplitude.Wes owned 6 L5`s and used Gibson HiFi heavy gauge, flatwound strings.the use of the thumb coupled with the heavy gauge strings would produce his mellow bassy tone.Thanks for the follow ups...great response..if anyone wants the string gauges i have the data...also all the info on the 6 guitars .

[Bardstown Audio]

For whatever this information may be worth to anyone, The acoustic archtop guitar was sample recorded with a new set of medium gauge phosphor bronze strings. The electric archtop guitar with the DeArmond pickup was sample recorded with a new set of medium gauge flat wound strings, which have a warmer and more of a mellow sound for electric jazz guitars.

Regarding Miles Davis since he was talked about in a previous posting, I love earlier Miles Davis recordings from the 1950\'s and 60\'s, but when Miles got into electronic music in his later projects, it completely turned me off.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Bardstown Audio]

Hopefully with this statement I can sum up this discussion...

There are some people who like chocolate ice cream, but do not like strawberry ice cream. There are also people who like strawberry ice cream, but do not like chocolate ice cream. So my advice is this... If you like chocolate but do not like strawberry, then don\'t buy strawberry, buy chocolate. If you do not like chocolate but like strawberry, then don\'t buy chocolate, by all means, buy strawberry ice cream.

I don\'t think either of these scenarios will upset the strawberry farmers or the chocolate plantations.

Kip



[This message has been edited by Bardstown Audio (edited 04-14-2002).]

[Jake Johnson]

No, I don\'t have an agenda. Maybe the demos don\'t do justice to the samples. (I see that you get good reviews, butthe dmos just don\'t sound like a guitar to me. I have an ES-175)

Is there no way to create a wave file for a demo, to give people a better idea of the sound?

[Bardstown Audio]

An ES175 sounds quiet a bit different than an L5 or L7 with pickups. The L5\'s, L7\'s, and Super 400\'s are premium top of the line Gibson guitars. The ES175 is not. The ES175 has a laminated top, and the older L7 and L5 Gibson archtops have solid \"hand carved\" spruce tops, whereas the newer ones have \"machine carved\" solid spruce tops. This particular sampled L7 has a floating DeArmond pickup, so therefore the top was not cut in order to mount pickups, which permits for much better resonance and sound. Also, the laminated top on the ES175 is cut out in order to mount dual \"double coil\" humbucker pickups, if it was made within the last 46 years. If an ES175 is older than 46 years old, it could very likely have either single or dual \"single coil\" P90 \"soap-dish\" pickups. I am not knocking ES175\'s. They have their own particular sound, just as the L7, L5, and Super 400 have their own particular sound.

Your statement is no different than you saying your Strat does not sound like my Tele, or Les Paul.

I think this discussion is getting rather ridiculous!

Kip




[This message has been edited by Bardstown Audio (edited 04-14-2002).]

[fmfgs]

Dasher
in german we would say \"you are walking on eggs\" in carefully making your request for a specific sound in this forum. It is very disappointing what you get as a response. If I had this archtop library I would gladly answer your simple question wether I can get this sound (with what plugin) or not.
If we dont have a forum for open discussions then Franky is right: you dont like the demos - you dont buy.
If you are not even alloud to base your judgement and decision on demos, then your screwed. And please, keep your opinion for yourself and dont post it on a forum like this (you dont fart loud in a church - right?).

To you library producers out there: for your customers it is important also to know, what your product can NOT do. Only informed customers are good and happy customers who come back and buy more of your products. I dont point to somebody specific - but I get the impression here lately, that some developpers are more into defending there ego then getting new customers...
fmfgs

[Dr. Hook]

These discussions do get childish at times and it seems that some people get on just for the fun of bashing whoever and whatever instead of having an open dialog about legitimate topics. I don\'t recall Kip ever claiming that his libraries are a \"do all\" or a \"silver bullet.\" They are extremely versatile, but if something is not the sound you need, buy something else, don\'t bash a good thing just because it\'s not what you want.

Personally, I\'m of the opinion that the Bardstown Audio libraries are excellent, top quality. Perfect for the type of music that I\'m involved with. This guy has the integrity to put out what he believes in and that means you can trust his work and his word.

[thesoundsmith]

Closing comments from me. Franky and Kip have their viewpoint, and they have a right to it. I have my viewpoint, and apparently am not supposed to have a right to it without first spending money. Sorry you feel that way, but that is your problem. My problem, and that of every Gigastudio owner, is that I can\'t audition your library before I purchase. I can\'t test it, I can\'t judge it by anything except marketing hype (and my second question is always \"What WON\'T it do?\" and the glimpse of the library given by YOUR marketing tools. By YOUR rules, if I don\'t like it after purchase, I have NO recourse. So my judgements are based on YOUR evidence (and of course, my preconceptions, likes and dislikes.)

So I\'m going to respond point by point, and then not post to this thread any further. It has been blown WAY out of proportion, and there\'s no satisfaction or resolution to be gained by anyone.

Let\'s see- Franky, you said (omitting gratuitous insults):

This series...
\"You are making that statement by analysing samples of the demoes, come on....\"
\"Even if you Tell everyone you are only analysing the library by the demoes doesn\'t make it right...\"
\"This is all i\'m going to write on the subject, you will never convince me that you can analyze a library as in depth like you did by simply listening to demoes, \"

Definition of Analysis in depth as I use it: Listening closely to the MP3s-in order to separate issues of artifacts of the MP3 conversion and stylistic considerations from the quality of the samples (objective) and suitability of purpose (subjective.)

\"also it\'s clear from the get go you don\'t like this particular kind\'ve jazz guitar\"

Absolutely untrue. I DO like this style of guitar, when placed in it\'s proper context. I wouldn\'t use a Pat Metheney guitar sound as a four-on-the-floor Freddie Greene comp, or a hot jazz recording. Nor a Django timbre for an Ozzy Ozborn clone track. For some reason, you appear to be unwilling or unable to distinguish \'quality of library\' from \'suitability of purpose.\' I listen to what you, as developers, offer as proof of suitability-your demo files. And make ABSOLUTELY VALID judgements for suitablity of MY purpose based on this. Not necessarily CORRECT judgement, as I have insufficient evidence. But VALID, because this is all the evidence presented.

Voxosoxo wanted Wes Montgomery-style sound. As this is one of the guitar styles I occasionally write for, I have already applied the question to these demos, and have reached the conclusion it won\'t sound like Wes. Too \'woody\' a tone. Insufficient sustain, the sample decays too quickly to produce the \'modern\' electric sound. Nowhere do I hear a sustained tone lasting 5 seconds or more, and it appears the samples decay to silence before that. . Am I right? I don\'t know. But I DO know that your analysis is biased. And mine is not (except by personal taste, which is really not the issue. I do know how to separate bias and personal taste from fact.)

If you don\'t approve of my judging your product by commenting on the demo files, come up with a better way to audition the product. For example, Digitalcomplete offers a full refund if not satisfied. Until then, I will continue to make purchase decisions (and comments on products)based on what my musical training and project requirements dictate.

Still Franky:
\"you\'re into ES-335 which is also a great guitar, but worlds apart from what Kip is offering, so you are biased from the beginning and will never like the library whatever we say so the discussion is pointless, we can all agree you don\'t like the library and leave it at that and move along geez.....\"

No, we can\'t all agree. I DO like the library. I just don\'t think it\'s appropriate for the specific purpose under discussion.
But I DO agree we should let this thread die, it serves no useful purpose. We are talking about different subjects, and will never reach a valid conclusion. At best, let\'s agree to disagree. I won\'t interfere with your attempts to convince us there is only one valid jazz guitar, and you won\'t interfere with my search for a good smooth jazz/contemporary guitar. And perhaps Voxosoxo will listen to the demos and make up his OWN mind.

And then, Kip said:
\"I love earlier Miles Davis recordings from the 1950\'s and 60\'s, but when Miles got into electronic music in his later projects, it completely turned me off\"

And that is probably the root difference in underlying concept here. I love his later work, and am bored by the \'cool Miles.\' BTDT. Although I think his finest moments were with Gil Evans and the Miles in Europe albums.

And finally, Kip says:
\"Hopefully with this statement I can sum up this discussion...
There are some people who like chocolate ice cream, but do not like strawberry ice cream. There are also people who like strawberry ice cream, but do not like chocolate ice cream. So my advice is this... If you like chocolate but do not like strawberry, then don\'t buy strawberry, buy chocolate. If you do not like chocolate but like strawberry, then don\'t buy chocolate, by all means, buy strawberry ice cream.

I don\'t think either of these scenarios will upset the strawberry farmers or the chocolate plantations.

Kip\"

Kip, I agree. I just don\'t want to be told by the ice cream vendor that that red-colored stuff is really chocolate.

Jake: I hate Kenny G too, but I don\'t consider Carlton to be the equivalent, although I can understand how you might. Different thread.

King: Your wonderful comment proves the points by both Franky and myself. You HAVE the library, and say the demos don\'t do it justice. This proves Franky right-I couldn\'t properly judge the product by the demo; and proves me right-I ONLY have the demo to go by, so I\'m forced to make assumptions. But you still didn\'t actually address the root question-will BG do Wes Montgomery sounds>

fmfgs: Thank you for your comments. What I really see (again) is somebody brighter than I needs to develop a solution to this impasse. A fair way to properly evaluate libraries, that prevents both the developer and the customer from being ripped. Then this whole thread would have been irrelevant and unneccessary.

Closing remarks: Kip, Franky, we don\'t see eye-to-eye on this, and probably never will. But I felt I had to make a stand at what I perceive as overselling a product. I\'ve done that, the flames have shot across the Web and hopefully, both sides have made their points. I sincerely wish you both the best in your development endeavors. And when I get a project that requires the sounds I hear in your demo files, I will not hesitate to purchase from you (if you\'re willing to sell to me after this...)

End of story. Flame off. God Bless and good night. (Kip, Franky said he\'s done-I\'m done. This leaves you to close up, if you wish...)

Dasher

[KingIdiot]

I thought I\'d chime in again

seeing that I\'m only dropping in here nad there and checking certain threads, I missed the ...ahem... fun...

jeez.

ok My thoughts on vintage guitars and banjos.

The tone on the pick ups is great. Really warm and, as Dasher stated, \"woody\".

It has an inspiring tone, and responds well to jsut a tad of verb.

I think the release triggers are a little strange at times. They work sometimes, and they dont other times. I\'m going to be programming attenuation control to them via sustain pedal or something so I can turn them \"on and off\" at will (not really, it will be just volume and not affect poly). I\'m spending alot of time working on ideas for \"tweaks\" like this for all the libraries I have.

Sustains dont go for days. but possibly can be looped, I\'ll look into it.

The problems I have are just general \"guitar vs sample\" problems. While the tone is fantastic, you can\'t just plop in MIDI notes and expect it to sound like a guitar. Not to mention it does take a bit of MIDI manipulation to get a good solo out of ANY guitar library.

This is why I dont like the demos. Many of the Bardstown demos dont shine IMO. It may be just my opinion, but I\'m not so sure. I\'ve had to defend the libraries a few times in private conversations with regards to some of the demos. Some of them make the library sound like a glorified MIDI module sounds. this is a bit distracting from the fantastic tones and possibilities.

It may be similar to the whole Puuurfect Drums thing...except anyone can hear that the tones of the samples are great even in the demos.

Dash, obviously you agree that is sounds great, its jsut not your bag.

Maybe someone needs to create a Jazz guitar Sample CD, with a bunch of \"common\" or \"sought after\" sounds. Franky?


EDIT-

The Bose Demos are great http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif And the banjos in vintage guitar and bonjos is also great.

I\'m also working on tweaks for the accordians. EG Mod Control of attacks, a simple one, and quicker releases. Also maybe a few variations on attacks.

Jsut to give a heads up on some of the bardstown stuff I\'ve been going through in my head.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 04-14-2002).]

[Bardstown Audio]

Hello King,

Thank you for your comments.

Regarding the release samples on the guitars and banjos, they are controllable with the mod wheel... mod wheel all of the way forward, gives full release effect.. mod wheel all of the way back, release samples are turned all of the way off... mod wheel at any position in between gives varying degrees of the release sample effects.

Regarding the release sounds on the accordions, the version 2.0 upgrade that I sent to all of my customers addressed that issue, in order to make for a much tighter release sound. If you did not receive that upgrade, please let me know and I will send to you right away.

Thanks,
Kip

[KingIdiot]

Hey Kip,

Actually, I just remembered about the update for accordians...duh

I still think EG Mod Attack control could be a big plus. I\'ve been toying with releases and attack controls with alot of libraries the past day or so. I can\'t believe how much more playable QLB\'s solo instruments are with minimal adjsutments.

About the Release triggers, I\'d like to assign them to somehting that I could \"switch on and off\" instead of mixing. Its just \"quicker\" when playing in real time. Even Foot pedal Mod wheel control doesn\'t respond quick enough for me. Maybe a keyswitch to non release versions.

I played with it with my Ztar, and thats where I started having problems with the triggers. They feel a little \"laggy\".

I must state to all that my opinions are still based off of the limited playing I have done with the libraries. Most of you know I work with other instruments samples alot more than guitars (since I play). I still have a lot to learn on how to actually really push these libraries.

not to mention learning to write good music with them.


------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Franky]

Fine, i\'ll take your invitation to close out this discussion Dasher...

1st off, where the hell are these gratuitous insults i\'m supposed to have thrown your way ? and if so you can\'t be serious in thinking nobody was going to respond to your trashing (for lack of a nicer word situated between disliked and bashed) of Kip\'s library without having even tried it......

I am all for vigorous discussion and user comments about libraries, this is what makes this forum tick, BUT user comments by people
who OWN the library is what im saying, that\'s why we have threads like \"anybody know of a good bla bla bla library ?\" to which people who actually OWN the library respond \"yes i own it like it\" \"yes i own it dont like it\", not people who have NOT purchased it, because they cant have an objective opinion about it without having tried it. Case in point, Munsie\'s request for user comments reviews and demoes by people who bought QL 56 Strat.... he didn\'t say, i listened to the demoes and therefor i dont like it, what he did was search out for people who bought it, their opinions and demoes, now THAT is the way to proceed imho, not make final decisions about a library by simply the demoes.......

Quote : \" But I DO know that your analysis is biased. And mine is not (except by personal taste, which is really not the issue. I do know how to separate bias and personal taste from fact.)\"

Now what the hell is that supposed to mean ? I actually OWN the library and like it, in which way am i biased ? I have absolutly nada to gain by saying it\'s good if it isn\'t, except loosing credibility which i am NOT in the habit of doing....

Quote : \"If you don\'t approve of my judging your product by commenting on the demo files, come up with a better way to audition the product.\"

I just did, a few paragraphs above http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Quote : \"No, we can\'t all agree. I DO like the library. I just don\'t think it\'s appropriate for the specific purpose under discussion.\"

Now see, this is EXACTLY why your post infuriated me.... The guy\'s looking for a L5 guitar sound in the style of a guy that played jazz guitar in the 40\'s to the 60\'s, Kip says hey \"look i have a library of archtop guitars namely the L7\" in the old jazz style of the 40\'s... ( not appropriate for the specific purpose under discussion ? come on give me a break...)
EXACTLY on topic, then you come in and start blasting away although done in a gentle nice smiling tone it\'s still says your library\'s crap to me, however nice you say it **** you means **** you even if you\'re smiling....
All this based on demoes, the other reason why your post made me not happy...

Now my tone may seem angry and bitter but i am far from that, i just don\'t think you can arrive to a final conclusion about a library simply by the demoes, the trick is to ask for people who actually OWN the library what THEY think about it and ask THEM for their opinion and to post demoes of the sounds in action....

Make a search in here about the library, you\'ll see a lot of responses of people who actually OWN the library and like it, they all biased too ? i think not.

I understand exactly what you were trying to say and prove in your posts Dasher, i\'m saying it was NOT posted in the right thread at all, i am not angry at you and do beleive it\'s time to agree to disagree and move on.

Peace out
Franky
Vintaudio Prod. www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")