Chichester Pslams [Archive] - Northern Sound Source

PatS

04-10-2002, 05:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by composer22:
I thought that was an acronym he was anticipating - e.g. Pslams or P-slams = Pat slams ==> PatS

=)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, come on! I wasn\'t slamming Donnie. I was just having fun. Was it my timing? Too close to recent events? You\'re pulling my chain, aren\'t you? I see the happy face, but if I turn my head it looks like a symbol Penderecki might have used. Still, you do draw an interesting connection. I guess it\'s time to change my username.

Frankly, I could care less how folks on the Internet spell these days (pace Z6), just as long as I can understand them. I\'m particularly fond of KingIdiot\'s posts, which are masterpieces reminiscent of the pre-Websterian period (a huge chunk of human history, I might add).
Pat

P.S. Donnie, if my silly postscript irked you even in the slightest, I\'ll buy you a beer at next year\'s NAMM and apologize in person.

composer22

04-10-2002, 05:18 PM

Honestly, I cant wait to meet all of you...

I am having a blast...

No slams pat slammer!

<[=)

hgows that for a penderechi achronyyysm

donnie

04-10-2002, 05:44 PM

If anyone has the following libraries I would love to hear how they compare with the Prosonus strings. The midi file above has no tweaks to it so it would be a fair comparision for all libraries. The only thing I did to the Prosonus demo was add reverb and encode at 256kbs.

I would love to hear:

GOS
Ultimate Strings
AO
Miroslav
and any others I may have left out.

Donnie

PatS

04-10-2002, 05:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by donnie:
Sorry for the typo http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Hey Pat I would love to hear your version of that midi file.

Its just \"plug and play\" because there are no midi messages (ie. volume or expression) written in so you should be able to just plug anything in.

Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please know that you shouldn\'t have to apologize over a typo. And I\'m sorry if my lapse in netiquette ticked you off in any way.

As for the MIDI file, I\'d like to give it a shot, though probably not until tomorrow or Friday night (our 17-month-old has been staying up until 11PM, thanks to the time change). Of course, KingId may be able to rise to the challenge sooner than I would, and I\'m certain he has a much better facility with GOS than I do. But I\'d still like to give it a go; at the very least, it\'s therapy for me.

Do you want to hear the GOS non-vibrato patches (I only have GOS and Dan\'s solo strings sans bass)? The voices on my recording of the Chichester Psalms really warble (waggle?), which made your non-vibrato arrangement all the more refreshing. On the other hand, the vibrato sustains and/or Grand Detache patches with expression applied could be nice. Or do you want to hear how a corresponding patch from another library responds to a simple MIDI file with little or no performance tweaking--apples to apples? BTW, is it your file or something you found in an online archive?

I\'d certainly be interested to hear what others can do with Miroslav, AO, Kirk Hunter, and Ultimate Strings (what did I miss?). Although I don\'t believe such comparisons would be particularly fair across the board, given the different ways in which patches respond to MIDI input, the comparisons do offer prospective customers a chance to hear the basic differences among libraries.

Whatever the outcome, let\'s make this fun and informative.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 04-10-2002).]

donnie

04-10-2002, 06:13 PM

Pat,

Sounds like a great idea...oh, and I forgot Kirk Hunter too. Don\'t sweat the delay. Don\'t forget that I have an 11 month old so I know what thats all about! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I don\'t mean to make this a competition. As a matter of fact lets don\'t even say which one is better because it\'s all opinion anyway.

As for the performances since there\'s no midi control data (tweaking) in the one I posted lets leave it apples to apples.

I have AO so I\'ll do one with that later tonight.

I\'m just curious to see how differently they all sound.

Donnie

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-10-2002).]

donnie

04-10-2002, 06:53 PM

Hey guys...I updated the midi so that it\'s just the section in question. This way it should be a lot easier to manage...
Donnie

donnie

04-10-2002, 07:13 PM

I just uploaded the AO strings....
http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/AOSTRINGS.mp3 (\"http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/AOSTRINGS.mp3\")

For some reason it left out one note at the end...not really sure why either???

Donnie

donnie

04-10-2002, 08:33 PM

Hey Thomas J, don\'t you have the Kirk Hunter Strings? I would really like to hear those with this midi if you do.

Thanks,

Donnie

donnie

04-11-2002, 08:40 AM

No takers yet? Come on guys....Simon, I figured you would be all over this....

Donnie

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-11-2002).]

KingIdiot

04-11-2002, 09:27 AM

I fully dont agree with this, but I\'ll take care of some today

I hate the purgatory creek idea. all MIDI files dont work the same on all libraries. And rightly they shouldn\'t they are all calibrated differently and focus on different types of features

I dont want all my libraries to act like glorified GM banks. Especially with the features Gigastudio can boast.

If VotA didn\'t have expression control or consonants, or keyswitching, it wouldn\'t sound all that fantastic IMO, jsut a glorified GM choir bank.

Its why I think alot of demos are terrible for Dan Dean\'s woods, and one of the reasons I dont like them. the sustains feel like a glorified GM bank. The brass is only better to me because I added filter controls, and he dynamic range is a bit more on the fantastic side.

GOS, wouldn\'t be as great without EXP control and all the release and attack control features.

AO... crossfades, not fantastic, but use full.

Kirk hunter. Could do well with filters

Smart Violins, already heard it with filters added, sounds really good. and would probably come out the winner in a battle like this...too bad its only violins

Roland orch board, attack/release control in real time, who wouldn\'t use these?

I hate this type of stuff because it misrepresents what a Library could do for the sake of a \"standard\" that may be already \"optimized\" for the library/GM bank its originally created on.

Its the equvilent of a 1st month student of guitar plucking at the open strings of a guitar and trying to get a representation of the tone and sound of the guitar.

Case in point, I think both versions of the MP3 posted here sound like complete crap. But I know that they can sound much better. Not many people are able to listen and say to themselves.. ok I would move expression here, I\'d adjust the attacks fcor this piece...move the tempo map here, all things to make the piece work.

not to mention a lot of these libraries come with different Instrument variations or articulations that all work better for different styles.

AO with soft strings, or vibrato strings, plus its normal strings.

GOS with different velocity controlled instruments. Some different sustain variations.

Ultimate strings, and the different tunings.

If we are trying to show what a library can sound at minimal input from a MIDI, lets start discussing ways and sharing to make ALL libraries play better at this level, rather than saying hey this is what it sounds like out of the box, choose whatever you like the most.

Its obviously a misrepresentation of many libraries. Especially since most people can\'t discern from sound/composition/orchestration/sequencing skill when they listen to an MP3. No one\'s ears are objective enough. And each persons ears fall to focus on different things.

Not to mention the idea that all libraries should play great at this simple level, and should be all we ever need, is like saying we shouldn\'t need all the powerfull sequencing options available and that the MIDI spec has more than enough options in it, and it doesn\'t need to be expanded.

After this hearty disclaimer and dia tribe. I will fill Donnie\'s need to have this. And more.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 04-11-2002).]

donnie

04-11-2002, 09:42 AM

King,

My idea with this is the same feeling I have had for some time now. As developer I have to realize that the majority of my customers are hobbyist. They do not have the time to spend on their music like a pro does. For this reason I believe it is important to show the average user what kind of results they CAN get out of the box. How many times have we seen some one come on here and bash a good library because they might not know how to get all the use out it?

If we show what a library can do in it\'s most simple form then we are actually doing a better service to the consumer.

However it is also ok to provide complex demos to better suit the pros. This demo of LOP has rarely been heard http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/2247/2247101.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/2247/2247101.html\")

It\'s a great demo but it shows massive amounts of tweaking that the average guy does not care to do (especially for percussion http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Donnie

KingIdiot

04-11-2002, 09:54 AM

thats the thing Donnie.

I think both MP3\'s sound like utter crap. But know there are ways to adjust the libraries to work better for this piece.

Of course, any of those adjustments would make another piece sound completely horrible.

Its a complete missrepresentation. Not to mention some libraries, aren\'t made for the hobbyist, while there are there are simplified patches. It doesn\'t showcase the best there is.

Many hobbyist still seem to want the best, they may also want the simplist at the same time, what they need to understand is that it does take work to get the best, and we need to show them that.

Comparisons as in, here\'s the MIDI file with no expression/volume, then with, and with reverb. or with adjustments to make the samples work with the piece. Stuff like that to show what can be done if you are willing to work, and how crappy it sounds if you aren\'t.. yah that soudns great to me.

Dumbing down is a terrible way to further an industry IMO. Look at the crappy movies, done by big budget studios. Dumb down so the end user doesn\'t have to think. Of course you dont want to alienate hobbyists... but you dont. Lets educate, by giving comparisans, with differing levels of \"tweaking\".

I\'ve always said the LOP stuff sounds great. I know how much better it can soudn with tweaking http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif but thanks for sharing the MP3, soudns great.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

donnie

04-11-2002, 10:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
thats the thing Donnie.

I think both MP3\'s sound like utter crap.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you REALLY think the Prosonus mp3 sounds like crap???? Man, I can\'t wait to hear your GOS version.

Donnie

KingIdiot

04-11-2002, 10:17 AM

The GOS version will sound like Garbage too.

I also think Ultimate Strings will sound like garbage.

My Roland synth will probably sound better than them all.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 04-11-2002).]

SOD213

04-11-2002, 10:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
The GOS version will sound like Garbage too.

I also think Ultimate Strings will sound like garbage.

My Roland synth will probably sound better than them all.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Roland board you\'re speaking of, is it the same one in the XP-30? I was playing with one of those at Guitar Center about 2 weeks ago, and just received the one I bought on E-Bay yesterday. Only played for about 15 minutes last night (when I meant to test it for 1 minute to make sure that it worked), but the orchestral sounds on it are phenominal. Well worth the $700 to get a 61 key controller with those sounds.

PatS

04-11-2002, 10:54 AM

Stop it! For God\'s sake, just stop it!

My autistic son\'s tantrums are a walk in the park compared to some of the crap I read here. Donnie, I offered you an olive branch, no doubt to the chagrin of many forum members. And you seemed willing to play nice. Yes, I was skeptical about your \"let\'s not make this a competition\" statement; still, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. But then you opened your mouth and removed all doubt. Gee, thanks for making this fun! And, yes, King wasn\'t much help either, though I tend to agree with most of what he said.

I\'m still not convinced that your initial conditions are fair, contrary to your \"out-of-the-box\" proposal. Nonetheless, I do believe the idea of using the same musical excerpt as a basis of comparison is a good one, just not under these circumstances and your conditions.

BTW, people will judge the results and prefer one version over another, and many will post their opinions here. I thought your senza vibrato arrangement sounded nice, and King thought it was crap. So what? King probably thinks I need to have my hearing tested, and you think King needs to have his face re-arranged. So what?

Look! If you want to make this a pissing war (it wasn\'t that long ago when threw down the same gauntlet), then count me out. But just to be nice one more time, I would advise you to check with the Bernstein estate to make sure you aren\'t violating their copyright.

Fair thee well!

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 04-11-2002).]

donnie

04-11-2002, 12:01 PM

Try it again....I realized I had the wrong one up there.

Donnie

composer22

04-11-2002, 12:19 PM

jesu christe, guys

I missed the fire...

but looking forward to hearing...

personally, I\'d like to hear what can be MAXED from each library on a pro level, but with limited ingredients...an out of the box experience with MIDI manipuation alone...keeping the same standard reverb device or plugin for each demo, NO post processing and NO sample editing.

e.g. all manipulations via MIDI only

I\'d like to see a hypothetical of what I could do if I went to the MAX with MIDI alone on the demos...to proove to me that the samples are useful, and that I can get the smae results IF I am not lazy (my trend)...

Sort of like BATTLE OF THE MIDI CHEFS

hmmm

P.S. patS...chill man...come back, this is better than Jenny Jones...which I know you are watching right now =)

PatS

04-11-2002, 12:39 PM

Donnie writes: \"Do you REALLY think the Prosonus mp3 sounds like crap???? Man, I can\'t wait to hear your GOS version.\"

Donnie:

My obviously unwarranted and unexpected response came from reading the above comment in the context of your \"I don\'t like Gary\" post, among many others. I\'m not here to defend Gary, contrary to what you may think, but some of your posts do cause me to question your motives, just as you question Wacky\'s motives. Having said that, I\'d still like to give the MIDI file a go, especially since King predicts the GOS version will sound like crap under your conditions (please read his entire explanation as to why it would). So, naturally, I\'m curious (or I had bad potty training--take your pick).

True, many of us may be hobbyists, but I suspect we all want to get the best sound out of our libraries. If that means learning how to massage and mix the performances properly, then it\'s time well spent. Out-of-the-box comparisons may be fun, but ultimately they only say what we get if we do nothing, which is not saying much at all, as far as I\'m concerned. In the end, I\'ll still be more interested in how Jeremy Soule, Robert Kral, Simon Ravn, and many others use their libraries to their fullest potential.

No, my heart hasn\'t changed, though I am being more cautious with you. As I said, I like the comparison idea, and I imagine others do too (pace King). If the copyright to Bernstein\'s work does permit us to make mockups of it (how was my comment a \"cheap shot\"?), why not start over with the opening of the 3rd movement, which folks can also hear at cdnow.com or amazon.com? This time, however, let all participants perform/sequence the excerpt as the selected patches dictate (I recall someone saying that the Miroslav strings like to be played in a particular way). Also, let one of your customers produce the sequence and mp3. After all, you\'re not just a customer; you\'re also the president. (Oh, God! Please let Donnie have a full head of hair. Honest! I only remember that you had short hair.)

So, in sum, my heart remains the same, but my mind has changed.

Pat

P.S. I\'m sitting on a large block of ice now.

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 04-11-2002).]

KingIdiot

04-11-2002, 01:14 PM

I started on this, then I relised I\'m supporting something I sespise, halfway through the AO softsustains version

I\'d be up to doing composer 22\'s version with NFX reverb, and little or no manipulations. Meanining, being able to move the GPC controller that controls attack atleast once, so you get soft attacks througout, instead of the default.

anyhow. I\'m not going to do this. Its plain idiotic and too frustratic. Especially when listening to the three I did, and saying to myself. \"oh how much better I could make this sound if I could jsut grabb all the velopcities and subract a value of 10 or so from them. Or .. GAWD.. even Pan!!!

was I allowed to do that.. pan each channel?

I didn\'t. that would have made a big difference

which brigns me to another point. All libraries dont have the same calibration between velocities. With somethig like Strings THAT IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!

oh wait..now I\'m pointing out even more simplistic reasons why a MIDI file comparison doesn\'t work..

I give up. I\'m going back to pushing my skills further as a MIDI orchestrator and composer.

If you want to build for hobbyists and people want to delude themselves into believing this is a fair way to compare string libraries/sounds. Be my guest.... well no dont be my guest if you think its fair...but I cant stop ya http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
http://www.musicyouneed.com/stupidMIDI/ (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/stupidMIDI/\")

thats the link to the three I did

Roland Orch board 1 \"full strigns\" patch
then the same patch with the keyboard turned down about a third, and nudging the attack and release once before starting the MIDI for sloer attack and release. I would have done panninng and adjusted velocities down a little, but thought it would be tampering too much

lastly is AO softstrings patch.

anyhow, I didn\'t do ultimate strings or GOS, or the Roland individuals just because it was easier to start with these... then I realised...

Have I said it enough... I think this is stupid...

for a minute I thought it would be a way to help people...but its not, its just satiating Donnie\'s need to get this done http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Adn in the end letting him judge libraries on somethign I dont thin klibraries should be judged

even if the judging is not to find out which sounds better, but just to hear.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

composer22

04-11-2002, 01:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PatS:
...Having said that, I\'d still like to give the MIDI file a go, especially since King predicts the GOS version will sound like crap under your conditions...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome back PatS, are you suggesting you are going to do us the honours here with a rendition...Im confused...?

If so, go for it...

The ice you refer to should solve many protological suggestion of late on other threads. =)

I\'ve slipped in my demo needs...out of the box or not...what concerns me about post processing of sounds is the $$$ involved...If Jeremy or Kral or whomever throw down some MIDI materials and follow up with $20,000 reverbs and great finalizing products and consulting from top talent...how is that helping me...the poor and defenseless, trying to get by with what he has composer who is concentrating on getting the notes down? It\'s taking away focus on the samples and my first line of defense - MIDI - and the demo\'s should show that consistantly...

Yes great mixing is good...but that also takes great tools and skills as well...lets focus on the soundszz, please? they may all not work without the post processing, but hey, some will be better than others and we judge on that...

donnie

04-11-2002, 01:18 PM

DH Rottering (aka) Esperland....

Sent in this submission....He didn\'t say which library it was so I\'m waiting to hear back from him on this...
http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/Psalms.mp3 (\"http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/Psalms.mp3\")

Donnie

composer22

04-11-2002, 02:14 PM

That last mp3 - I thought i was in some 1980\'s video game.

Listening now to the AOS and Prosonus demos again. I found the Prosonus more realistic - the deciding factor being the the high strings cadence at the end of the piece. I just didnt think the AOS did justice - e.g. that the attack came off sounding synthetic, synthy whatever. The AOS sounded too far away in the mix...

We\'ll see what PatS can dream up...

Im tempted to try my hand at a JV2080 version using orchestra I and II cards

donnie

04-11-2002, 02:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by composer22:
That last mp3 - I thought i was in some 1980\'s video game.

Listening now to the AOS and Prosonus demos again. I found the Prosonus more realistic - the deciding factor being the the high strings cadence at the end of the piece. I just didnt think the AOS did justice - e.g. that the attack came off sounding synthetic, synthy whatever. The AOS sounded too far away in the mix...

We\'ll see what PatS can dream up...

Im tempted to try my hand at a JV2080 version using orchestra I and II cards

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey composer, that would be great to do the old JV boards....actually for what they are they are quite good.

Donnie

composer22

04-11-2002, 02:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by donnie:

Hey composer, that would be great to do the old JV boards....actually for what they are they are quite good.

Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah for what they are...hahaahaaaaazzzz...make me laff so hard my Judy Green orchestra pad just fell on the floor.

I\'ll see if these wanky SRV-boards can do, but strapped for time right now...the challege against these heavy weights would be interesting, no! What if I can put AOS, Prosonus and GOS to shame!

Man, should have played the Lotto last night...I feel lucky!

esperlad

04-11-2002, 02:53 PM

The strings are a combination of Dan Dean, Miroslav (contrabass) and VRsounds.

composer22

04-11-2002, 03:11 PM

I was going to say the solo string sounded good

Haydn

04-11-2002, 03:22 PM

This reminds me of the year I spent re-recording my older pieces from 5-15 years ago. I did this so I could have good CD copies instead of the tapes they were originally recorded on.

I did not have GigaStudio for the first few CD\'s I did. The first few CD\'s went pretty quick as most of the original synths were used. I did update some of the sounds with my Roland XP-30 that has both Orchestral boards in it. I also updated the strings with the Roland SE-1 String Ensemble synth. I had to do tweaking on velocities and volume levels to balance the mix besides changing many program changes and changing the octave some parts were in.

Then I purchased GigaSampler and started adding the higher quality instruments such as Xsample woodwinds, harp, celeste and the UOP. Again I noticed that the velocity response was much different in GigaSampler from my hardware synths. Also, now I had to add in keyswitches for articulation changes. The percussion parts were pretty much re-recorded to take advantage of the multi-velocity layers in UOP and the other advantages of UOP.

The last few CD\'s I\'ve done have even needed more extensive work as I\'ve purchased more libraries including doing tweaking for about half the samples. I tweak and I\'m only a hobbyist. The last few pieces I\'ve reworked took almost as long to do as the new pieces. They just sounded like crap until I started tweaking around and taking advantage of the newer libraries.

I have to agree with KingIdiot about this not working using a standard MIDI file without tweaks. It\'s just a test of frustration!

Now if maybe a basic MIDI file was used and then was tweaked to take advantage of each library, you may then have a fair test. The changes made to the file could not change the basic notes or tempo but would allow program changes, keyswitching, velocity changes, volume changes, panning and other controller changes needed to take full advantage of each library. Everyone would still start at the same point with the same MIDI file.

There is just no way that a MIDI file without any changes will show off the true capabilities of each library.

composer22

04-11-2002, 03:29 PM

Haydn:

I\'d have to agree with you...the balances in the sample recording need to be matched, and they all have different velocity trigger points. For example, the other day I applied an .art update against my DSSS...which just about blew my speakers off the desk because of these new updates, and nothing changed in the sequencer. Totally different settings from the day before. Totally different sounds etc. Yeah its not MIDI but i think you can see a point that external manipulations can matter in balance etc

Fairness would be: Here\'s a common MIDI file...lets see what you can do with it...No post processing magic...play it straight

Better yet, have one MIDI master chef do demo\'s with all the libraries so we have the same touch-n-talent on all the demo\'s...and let us judge

[This message has been edited by composer22 (edited 04-11-2002).]

[This message has been edited by composer22 (edited 04-11-2002).]

donnie

04-11-2002, 03:39 PM

Just got this from DH...

The solo violin and viola are Dan Dean, the violin and viola sections are
VRsounds, and the bass is Miroslav. The woodwinds are Dan Dean.

-----Original Message-----
From: Donnie [mailto:donnie@dssoundware.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:16 PM
To: Herr Ed
Subject: Re: Bernstein demo

what strings are these?

dc

Simon Ravn

04-11-2002, 04:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by donnie:
No takers yet? Come on guys....Simon, I figured you would be all over this....

Donnie

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-11-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I would, but there is two reasons that I am not. One, I think you posted this \'challenge\' only a few hours ago, and I just got home from a 15-hour work day. Which brings me to reason number two. I won\'t have any time for this for the next week or so.

But.. I just listened to your Mp3 donnie. Well, it sounds pretty nice - but not like strings http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif) And my god the tuning problems in this library are horrible. I won\'t buy this for sure. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 04-11-2002).]

Simon Ravn

04-11-2002, 04:49 PM

Wow king, the AO soft strings sound quite good for this.

donnie

04-11-2002, 05:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
But.. I just listened to your Mp3 donnie. Well, it sounds pretty nice - but not like strings http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif) And my god the tuning problems in this library are horrible. I won\'t buy this for sure. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 04-11-2002).][/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tuning problems? How about pointing out where they are....

Donnie

Simon Ravn

04-11-2002, 05:16 PM

OK donnie, either it\'s all your violas or cellos that are out of tune. Let me point you to some key locations:

It\'s bad all over the piece. Noticable at least. But where it is really bad is at 0:11 - the cellos, which you have on the left btw http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif. Then it proceeds, get a little better. But at 0:27-0:36 it\'s horrible. Sounds like a school orchestra.

I am sorry that you can\'t hear this. It is REALLY bad!

donnie

04-11-2002, 05:27 PM

Ok I\'m about to fall out of my chair....Really Simon I thought you were more educated than this....

Welcome to 20th century orchestration....the \"out of tune cello\" you are hearing is what is called a suspension....

By the way....checking the notes in auto tune shows them all to be with 1 1/2 cents leaving just enough \"hair\" on them to play naturally.

Please read my latest post before you speak about any of my work again without any creditability.

Donnie

PS...how long does it take to run sounds through a midi file....maybe 5 min\'s? man you must be a busy guy...

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-11-2002).]

Simon Ravn

04-11-2002, 05:30 PM

Donnie... Suspension.. right http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif) Believe what you want. This is severely out of tune. And I am not alone with that opinion http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

donnie

04-11-2002, 05:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Donnie... Suspension.. right http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif) Believe what you want. This is severely out of tune. And I am not alone with that opinion http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, a suspension, check your midi file if you want.... B natural against C and on and on....

If you aren\'t alone on this you should be!

do your homework man...

Donnie

PS...since users can\'t delete messages maybe you can contact Papa Chalk asap and get him to take that last post down for you before to many people see it. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-11-2002).]

composer22

04-11-2002, 08:04 PM

Ok, heres the JV2080/orchestra I and II card versions.

File named in honour of PatS

Pslams_JV2080.mp3 (\"http://www.pyxxel.com/music/exp/Pslams_jv2080.mp3\")

Notes:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Totally Raw. No reverb or FX. No MIDI manipulations. Nada...so forgive.
<LI> My \'puter crashed big time and I did this in one take. I\'m still having troubles recovering. I tried panning and setting levels via the JV2080, but I don\'t know if it made it in or not. It should give you something.
<LI> I\'ll delete this file off the network in about a week, as its clogging my host space.
[/list]

Actually, I just noticed alittle reverb set on the JV from a previous performance

[This message has been edited by composer22 (edited 04-11-2002).]

[This message has been edited by composer22 (edited 04-11-2002).]

donnie

04-11-2002, 11:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PatS:
Stop it! For God\'s sake, just stop it!

My autistic son\'s tantrums are a walk in the park compared to some of the crap I read here. Donnie, I offered you an olive branch, no doubt to the chagrin of many forum members. And you seemed willing to play nice. Yes, I was skeptical about your \"let\'s not make this a competition\" statement; still, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. But then you opened your mouth and removed all doubt. Gee, thanks for making this fun! And, yes, King wasn\'t much help either, though I tend to agree with most of what he said.

I\'m still not convinced that your initial conditions are fair, contrary to your \"out-of-the-box\" proposal. Nonetheless, I do believe the idea of using the same musical excerpt as a basis of comparison is a good one, just not under these circumstances and your conditions.

BTW, people will judge the results and prefer one version over another, and many will post their opinions here. I thought your senza vibrato arrangement sounded nice, and King thought it was crap. So what? King probably thinks I need to have my hearing tested, and you think King needs to have his face re-arranged. So what?

Look! If you want to make this a pissing war (it wasn\'t that long ago when threw down the same gauntlet), then count me out. But just to be nice one more time, I would advise you to check with the Bernstein estate to make sure you aren\'t violating their copyright.

Fair thee well!

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 04-11-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where in the heck did that come from??!?!?!?!?!?

What was it that I said? It\'s like all the sudden you changed your mind.

I still stand behind everything I\'ve said. No camparing on which is better...let\'s just hear them all.

And how much more fair can you get? The same midi file????? What could be more fair.

Why the sudden change of heart...????

Donnie

PS...the copyright thing I consider a cheap shot....there is no copyright violation with doing a musical demo and giving credit.

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-11-2002).]

KingIdiot

04-11-2002, 11:33 PM

I\'m not trying to make it a pissing war. In fact I dont think it ever went in that direction

I\'m honestly stating that The Prosonous version could sound much better if it was \"played\" rather than sequenced.

Same with the AO version, and a few tweaks. Or use the Soft strings patch. Or bettery yet, layer it with the normal strings.

Each patch has its strong point, and some will take better to this MIDI than others.

Yah SOD, the Roland Orch 1 board comes in thee XP 30.

I say this is your choice, if you\'re a hobbyist. You get variations that work with particular \"feeling\" of playuing. and they are named simply. Soft Strings... Warm Violins. full Strings, slow strings, Sad Strings... etc. Plus you get automatic reverb/EQ settings and the like.

not to mention one thousand or so other instruments. That all sound great and can inspire creativity.

Anyhow, this is all different than what I would say for other libraries.

Like a guitar library for instance. Different sampling techniques and programming techniques are needed to achieve every type of guitar sound. And different ones will work better for different hobbyists and pro users alike.

Which is my point. I think this ends up just being s stupid \"contest\" between libraries.

It can be compared to a race between one person forced to run with one shoe untied, and another racer to be forced to race with his other (better) leg tied behind his back, and to hop till the end. Only difference is some viewers will never know the limitations being placed in these cases.

the thing that is missing in the sample world, are patches like \"soft strings..slow strings..etc\" Stuff that was sampled with the idea that it would be played for a particular style of music.

this is the only time a simple MIDI like this can let a library put its best foot forward. Then again, it also can put its worst foot forward

consider a patch called \"expressive strings\" that has a slow attack and rises with intensity as it plays, ... try ending a song with that patch. Especially when it needs a decrecendo. not to mention the slow attack with faster passages,.. ick.. I can hear...er not hear all the vacant spots between notes right now.

I still say any sample of an acoustic instrument that is played with lengthy sustains that can have both slow and fast attacks is never going to be represented well if its tested with just MIDI velocity. And that an out of the box setting..even for only slow strings. Will take better to some MIDI\'s/Compositions better than others. Even somethign as simple as tempo shifts can make a huge difference.

why so many people think this is still a \"fair\" way to judge between different sample libraries is way beyond me.

one last note. hobbyists can be catered to through ART files, or seperate \"easy\" patches.

I\'ve worked out a few ideas for Tom to do that with GOS that will have Pros happy as hell too, and I\'m going to try and incorporate them into AO and US, and if I get them SI.

There should be a sampler Hobbyist web page where people can exhange ART files.

then again why the hell should I, since its not \"out of the box\"?

Am I missing something are hobbyists and pros and developers alike in not sharing or using art files and updates? Should everything be done out of the box and only judged. Should uiser updates not be considered part of the equation?

If so, maybe I should keep all updates to myself. If only pros are the ones doing any tweaks, maybe I\'m only hurting my own future carreer and not helping any users who dont understand the editor. Or not helping them with even light and simple suggestions.

Sorry guys, this MIDI thing is an old topic that I\'ve NEVER agreed with. I know many others dont either, but too many people are tired of the bickering on the forum. I\'m only saying all this crap, not to bicker, but because I think it helps to inform users that theres more to a library than velocity control. And more to MIDI.

and that MIDI orchestration is still an art, and always will be. If you listen to comparisan\'s like the ones in this thread above and that will show uip, you must be objective and think of what \"could\" be done as well as what it sounds like with simple MIDI velovcity.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 04-11-2002).]

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 04-11-2002).]

KingIdiot

04-11-2002, 11:43 PM

hey donnie

I only get one voice out of the MIDI file.

dont see multiple channel data

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

Simon Ravn

04-12-2002, 01:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by donnie:
Yes, a suspension, check your midi file if you want.... B natural against C and on and on....

If you aren\'t alone on this you should be!

do your homework man...

Donnie

PS...since users can\'t delete messages maybe you can contact Papa Chalk asap and get him to take that last post down for you before to many people see it. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-11-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don\'t want my post removed. The strings are horribly out of tune, and I feel sorry that you can\'t hear it. And then I urge you not to do any more programming on libraries. At least leave the tuning to someone with musical ears.

donnie

04-12-2002, 10:53 AM

HA...whatever man....facts are facts. You just pissed because you can\'t hear common harmony. The strings aren\'t out of tune and you know it. This goes back to my \"just call me a jerk, but don\'t wrongly critisize my work\" comment.

Donnie

PatS

04-12-2002, 10:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by donnie:
Yes, a suspension, check your midi file if you want.... B natural against C and on and on....

If you aren\'t alone on this you should be!

do your homework man...

Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simon:

With all due respect to Donnie, that\'s not a suspension. At 0:11, I hear (and see) a D-minor-seventh chord (an example of \"modal mixture,\" in this case, a momentary shift to G Mixolydian; some may regard it as a \"borrowed chord\" from the relative \"natural\" minor, but we don\'t get a Bb until the final statement of the thematic idea). Now, if the bass had moved to a G in the next chord (0:13), then the C in the alto part would be a suspension, provided the tenor moved down to a G instead of up to the B. But the bass continues its descent to a C, which I hear as the root of an incomplete C-major-seventh chord (the 3rd is missing), i.e., the subdominant seventh.

My apologies to those of you who were hoping this topic would quietly slide off to page 2.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 04-12-2002).]

Jeff Hurchalla

04-12-2002, 01:41 PM

Very nice demo Donnie. For what it\'s worth, I agree though that it sounds out of tune here and there (and of course I could be mistaken). The opening chord (0:00 - 0:02) cello note seemed to be one of the culprits. The major third it plays sounds flat - quite close to a just(5/4) interval. This is a bit unusual in performance (orchestras tend to play thirds sharp of equal temperament), but there\'s a lot of latitude in a third so it doesn\'t really matter much in the opening. When the same cello note appears at :29 - :31 in another chord, the interval is a fifth this time (or a fourth compared to the violin) and the flatness becomes a problem since there\'s not much room for error in a fifth. If you listen at :29 to the cello in this chord and immediately shift your attention to the violin at :32 (which moves to the note the cello had just occupied), the violin and cello again sound as if they\'re not in tune with each other. I guess you could check a spectrum analyzer - I\'m just going by listening.
Overall the demo sounds good. There was one note that sounded a bit flat to me that I think some people noticed. It may be a rogue note, I\'m not sure. Anyway, articulation fixes cover this stuff easily enough if you want to go with that.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Hurchalla (edited 04-12-2002).]

composer22

04-12-2002, 11:03 PM

Bravo maestro PatS...a nice interpretation of events...

David Abraham

04-12-2002, 11:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by donnie:
Tuning problems? How about pointing out where they are....

Donnie

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

..actually I can hear the tuning issue pretty saliently as well, especially at around 00:11 to 00:18

I imagine this could be easily tweaked/corrected in the sampler

-david abraham

David Abraham

04-12-2002, 11:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by donnie:
The strings aren\'t out of tune and you know it.
Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yo donnie, please?...those strings are out of tune man...no disrespect intended.

-david abraham

04-12-2002, 11:44 PM

Those Roland strings sound damn good! As do the AO strings (both in King\'s post before he went AWOL). So I can get those (AO) strings in the Prosample (cheapo) collection? Excellent! (I only want a slow \'pad\')

I don\'t care which is best. Thanks for posting this. It does help.

As for GOS, as a neutral observer what I want to hear is the best it is capable of - Jeremy Soule already did that in his demo at the site.

Thanks guys (especially King for his link).

Whoops (called the library the wrong thing, I think).

[This message has been edited by Z6 (edited 04-12-2002).]

composer22

04-12-2002, 11:49 PM

Actually, I wasn\'t impressed with Jeremy\'s use of strings on that demo...they came off kinda synthy to my ears...I was more impressed with Jeremy\'s woodwinds and brass, which might have psychologically covered any judgement of the strings.

Alas, I learn his WW and brass samples are custom developed =(

Sapkiller

04-13-2002, 05:42 AM

Hi all
Simon, I think your ears are so accustomed
to well-tempered tuning, that you perceive equal or just tunings as \'out of tune\'.
That aside I agree that there are some
problems, most notiable in the 0:29 - 0:34
region - sounds a bit like a few notes with
insecure intonation and at the ending of some notes ( extonation? ). And also the problems that Jeff describes.
But so state that its awfull all the way
is an exaggeration and to suggest that
Donnie should give up sampling is downright
rude! Actually the senza-vibrato combined
with the quasi-equal tempered feel give the
piece a 17\'th century sound. As Jeff mentioned modern orchestra tend to play
closer to well-tempered, but I believe that
this is not the case for orchestras in the
earlier centuries, hell, well-tempered was\'nt even invented. (Pat - care to comment?).

Right then - I would like to introduce a
problem: The fact that our ( or at least
my ) perception of tuning is\'nt stable.
Some times when I tune my guitar (and also
when I at some point tried to tune my piano)
I get to a point where nothing sounds in tune. This is of course due to the fact that it is impossible to get these instruments to
sound \'pure\' in all keys, but my point is
is that as I focus more and more on the tuning, my ears become more and more intolerant to any departures from pure intervals. Then I put the guitar aside for a while and abracadabra: It suddenly sounds better. Has any of you experienced this?
Also I\'ve noticed that on some day\'s my ears
are more intolerant, than on others day\'s.

well, that\'s just my 2 ører ( translates into
2 cents - but in Danish \'øre\', apart from
being a subdivision of the currency, also
means: ears, which is the issue in this thread ) :-)

Bjk

David Abraham

04-13-2002, 08:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sapkiller:
Hi all
...
Right then - I would like to introduce a
problem: The fact that our ( or at least
my ) perception of tuning is\'nt stable.
...
Bjk <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sure, but though I love the general feel of the Prosonus demos that I\'ve been hearing from time to time, at this point there\'s no question in my mind that there are some tuning anomolies in some versions of the raw library. Easy to rectify. But let\'s please acknowledge this. (in a respectful way of course)

-david abraham

Robert Kral

04-13-2002, 02:11 PM

donnie,

I\'ve only GLANCED over this thread. Thanks for starting it it\'s cool. About a GOS midifile comparison: this wouldn\'t be too interesting unless the GOS file allowed for the use of the modwheel which controlls crossfades between soft and loud samples. It would be \"out of the box\" but still needs the controller performance. This is because the GOS library is simply DESIGNED to be used this way, its not designed to be used without extra controllers (at least in the case of most of the sustains).

However, a Grand Detache perfomance might be interesting: no extra controllers at all.

That said, I haven\'t even listend to your examples yet, but just wanted to throw in the fact that we can\'t compare a library and not use it the way it was intended.

How about a GOS version STRAIGHT, with compulsory listening also to GOS with controllers?

NO library can be judged on ANY example, if you want my opinion. I KNOW the prosonus library must be great because I have WORKED with the Roland strings version. And still do!

Simon Ravn

04-13-2002, 06:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sapkiller:
Hi all
Simon, I think your ears are so accustomed
to well-tempered tuning, that you perceive equal or just tunings as \'out of tune\'.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I perceive out of tune stuff as ... out of tune. I have never heard a real recording that made me want to cover my ears, like this demo did. So I dont see anything that can justify the SEVERE TUNING PROBLEMS in this library!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
That aside I agree that there are some
problems, most notiable in the 0:29 - 0:34
region - sounds a bit like a few notes with
insecure intonation and at the ending of some notes ( extonation? ).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Insecure intonation? At the ending?? It\'s on the complete duration of the notes. And my guess is it\'s around 15-25 cents off.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

But so state that its awfull all the way
is an exaggeration and to suggest that
Donnie should give up sampling is downright
rude!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don\'t know if that\'s rude. I think it\'s a problem if you\'re hired to program and tune a library, and your ears are apparently not up to the task. It will no doubt hurt sales of the library and word of mouth won\'t be good when people find out it is out of tune. This is not the first topic discussing whether or not Prosonus Giga version has tuning problems. I just never heard anything from it until now, but now I can hear what people were talking about.

composer22

04-13-2002, 07:02 PM

Ok, how this for the comparison rules:

1) Samples must be out of the box - no editing or enabling any new controllers. No modifications to the samples other than applying patches supplied from the developers site. Even the field.

2) Midi manipulations - anything goes; pans, mods, vol, xfades to other samples. You can even use tricks such as xfading to two different samples on two different midi channels...you just cant modify the sample - to make the field uneven.

3) Reverb and FX - you can only use the reverb out of GIG, or whatever hw that you are using. No TC\'s, Lex\'s, plugs...even the field...equal play...

In essense, lets see what one can do with even tools, and only one skill set.

Any takers?

Simon Ravn

04-13-2002, 07:36 PM

That will not be a fair comparison to any libraries. Some libraries will respond better than others to a \'raw\' MIDI file. It will show nothing about the qualities of a library. The same would go for pianos and all other instruments. Playing some Chopin piece might sound great on a Steinway B, not so good on the Malmsjö. Other stuff will be vice versa etc. And especially with more \'complicated\' instruments like string ensembles, brass ensembles etc, it is not a very interesting comparison - at least not if it is supposed to be a way of judging quality.

composer22

04-13-2002, 08:43 PM

you do have a point in that the samples may be geared for a particular genre.

Midi manipulation is fair IMHO If some dont respond well out of the box...I think it shows a negative score in terms of preparation by the company that sells it.

Now, how about if we have a pool of different kind of pieces, and let the MIDI master choose which one to do the demo?

EnsoniqWiz

04-13-2002, 09:06 PM

I have a few comments, both on the files and on the thread in general...

First off, I\'ll throw in my two cents on the \"raw midi file\" debate:

In general, I suspect that a raw midi file is probably not a fair test. It is closest to a fair test for piano samples, because in this case, the odds are reasonably good that the type of controller used to create the test file (a keyboard) is the same as the instrument in question (e.g. a piano, which is \"controlled\" by a keyboard).

As much as I\'d like to be able to sit down at a keyboard that controls a sample of a string, wind, or percussion instrument and have the resulting sound be what I want without twiddling, I find it highly unlikely that this will be the case.

I fully expect that for instruments where the controller I use is \"non native\" that I will have to twink with the resulting midi data to achieve the actual results I want. For me, the judgement of a library is highly incomplete if I merely sit down, play a few notes on the keyboard, and proclaim \"this sucks\" or \"this is great.\" (of course, I have some old 12-bit Ensoniq samples that, honestly, don\'t take much more than a few notes to proclame \"suck!\").

Of course, it would be nice, when listening to a demo of a given library, to have some benchmark to indicate how the demo was produced. One who developes and sells a library is going to spend the utmost care and attention producing demos that shows the product in its best light. Of course, what is not known by the listener, is the steps that went in to producing the demo. For the hobbyist, this might reduce some frustration by realistically setting expectations. For the professional, this could help them determine a cost-benefit of a given library (cost, both in terms of investment and time spent building the files necessary to take full advantage of the samples).

Now on to the files themselves:

I actually enjoyed both files (Prosonous and Roland), although they were clearly and strikingly different in many, many ways. I might go so far as to say that the \"philosophy\" of the two sounds was fundamentally different -- the intent behind the design of the samples is different.

I felt the Prosonous sound was more \"dramatic\" and \"dynamic\" while the Roland was more \"pensive\" and \"restrained.\"

In both cases, though, the MUSIC transcended the medium used to produce it. This comment is not meant to trivialize the importance of quality sound libraries, etc. Rather it is meant to emphasize the importance, and pay tribute to the wonderful gift that links us all together on this forum -- and that is MUSIC.