mp3 of LOP Timp Cres.

[donnie]

At the request of someone on another topic I thought I would post a short demo utilizing the cres. rolls in LOP.

This is using the TC Megaverb on the TC Powercore card which I just got.
http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/TIMPCRES.mp3 (\"http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/TIMPCRES.mp3\")

Donnie

[Bardstown Audio]

EXCELLENT!!!

Kip

[composer22]

of COURSE!!!

[donnie]

Thanks guys....BTW I got a Powercore recently and man is it awesome. If anyone is looking for much less expensive and just as powerful substitute for Pro Tools this is your ticket! You can stack up to four cards in one computer and each card has 4 motorola chips that are more powerfull than the PT mix farm cards.

The plugins that come with are VERY good and there are more 3rd party plugins coming. I am beta testing for an eq from Sony that absolutely blows everything out of the water!

Donnie

[Phattlippz]

Dumb question--will both Digidesign and TC cards co-exist peacefully in the same machine?

TC

[Bardstown Audio]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phattlippz:
Dumb question--will both Digidesign and TC cards co-exist peacefully in the same machine?

TC<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes and no...

Yes, you can have both in the same computer and use a Digi Mix Core and Mix Farm cards with Pro Tools software, but you cannot use a TC Powercore card in a Pro Tools session. You can use the TC Powercore card in DP, Logic, Cubase, etc., on the same computer with the Pro Tools PCI cards, but not with Pro Tools hardware and software running in the background. In other words, you can use one or the other, but not both at the same time.

I have this particular setup in one of my Mac G4\'s with a Mix Core, Mix Farm, TC Powercore, and a RME DIGI 96/8 PAD card. With this setup, I have the best of both worlds... Digi Mix Plus system, and also a different system for high definition recording, mixing, and mastering, without having to upgrade to Pro Tools HD. Actually, it is a better system than the new Pro Tools HD 192 system, considering the Benchmark converters I use are better converters than the new Digi 192 converter box.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Wacky]

Actually

Tell me if I am wrong, but Emagic makes a TDM Bridge that allows use of TDM hardware as well as Native Plug-ins. I have no idea whether or not \"Native\" would include a Power-Core system but it seems like it would work in theory. If it is possible, Logic would be the only sequencer that supported it.

[Michiel Post]

I have much of the same set-up Kip has and have the same problem when you want to use the Powercore under TDM. Yes you can use Logics TDM bridge to access standard TDM plug-ins under the Logic VST skin, but...this is related to another problem; the Powercore is a non-standard VST plug-in board. It uses its own format that\'s not compatible with existing VST plug-ins. You can select the TC plug-ins and run them on the Powercore card without adding to the CPU load of the host system. But you cannor use standard VST plug-ins and run them on the Powercore card instead of the CPU. So you can use VST plug-ins in VST and add the TC plug-ins in the Powercore board. You cannot use the TC-plug-ins under TDM.
These plug-ins are available as TDM plug-in though so this is probably just a matter of time. Just as AudioEase (who made the fantastic AltiVerb MAS plug-in) came with the VST wrapper that allows MAS users to run standard VST plug-in someone will come with a \"TC-wrapper\" for TDM systems.
Probably most big plug-in designers like WAVES and others will come with TC-Powercore versions of their software.

Another solution which I also use is the Creamware XTC card, that is comparable to the TC Powercore. It\'s using Sharc processors to run the best Creamware sysnth\'s and plug-ins under VST applications without accessing the CPU, just on their own DSP chips. I even prefer the Creamware XTC board as it has more synth\'s and even a softsampler working (you can use Powersampler softeware called Volkzsampler here) and that is a very good appplication.

And yes I agreee with Donnie the TC-plug-ins are excellent. They have a multi-band compressor and the TC-Verb that comes with the board and these are top products for mastering.

Great demo btw!

Michiel Post

[donnie]

************Not trying to start anything; just asking a question here************


Wacky....I thought for sure you would have something to say about the demo I posted. Is this what you were talking about? Just trying to figure this out....


Donnie

[MartinL]

Thank you for the demo Donnie, it is excellent!

Martin http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[PatS]

Likewise! I\'m very pleased with LOP.

Pat

[Ed Lima]

Man.. you see? It\'s all just lip service. Those tymps sound FANTASTIC! Far superior to my measly Siedlaczek set. Thanks for posting Donnie.

(And try to take some time off and spend it with your family. I\'ve never met you, but I\'m worried about you, bro.)
------------------
Ed Lima
ed@edlima.com
htp://www.edlima.com
ICQ#25972724
AOL IM: EdLimaMusicMedia

[This message has been edited by Ed Lima (edited 04-10-2002).]

[donnie]

Thanks Ed....yes, this has been a lesson learned for me....next time I won\'t say anything to get me trouble and I\'ll just post an mp3 and let the library speak for me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Donnie

[Simon Ravn]

Donnie, I dont know if this is how timpani cresc\'s are normally performed. I will just say that yes, they sound great on their own, but it still seems to me that the rolls are too slow - too long between each hit, so you dont get a very fluent crescendo, especially as the hits get harder. I know I have trouble getting it to sound really realistic even with Ultimate Timpani. Even with the lightest mallets the last hits seem too far apart - they sort of create an undesired RHYTHM at the end of the crescendo. Can you tell me 100% that this is really how it is done in filmmusic, classical music - the real deal - when you want a crescendo to blend in an orchestral setting - not just play a timpani crescendo on its own..?

PS: I\'d be happy if anyone BESIDES Donnie can confirm this http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif)

[composer22]

I can **honestly** confirm this, Ravn. Not plugging. These have a true sound. This is how timpani really sound.

We\'re all probably not used to hearing it this way for a number of reasons:

1) we are used to Synthesized/MIDI written out versions

2) we are used to hearing too much reverb and the distinctness of the hits are missing.

3) We rarely hear timpani in solo...usually under chords or in a contrapunctal setting, and tend to miss the roll distinctions.

I\'m pretty shocked by these recordings, actually. I wish I had the reverb to pull this off. Im now thinking of getting an expensive reverb unit...just when I thought I shelled out enuf $$$, thanks Donnie!

Hear the last two example\'s which use a softer mallet for the FX you may be seeking.

[Simon Ravn]

OK, I\'d be happy if anyone besides Donnie and Composer22 can confirm this.... A sidenote.. I also find the rolls, not just the crec\'s, of Ultimate Timpani very slow - so each hit gets \'too much attention\' from the ear here too. Sound something like 32nd\'s hits at 70BPM or so. If I recall correctly.

[composer22]

To placate Ravn, anyone want to comment? Im sure there are superfast rolling timpanists who take steroids out there, but as a median I think they ring true - so to speak. I find them incredibly warm.

Ravn..try doing a mock up with something you wrote so we can hear it in the context of a piece...

oh: ps...remember they are mallets NOT drumsticks...so lets not let the mind fool us into rolls on tenor instruments like field drums and the like



[This message has been edited by composer22 (edited 04-10-2002).]

[composer22]

Say, on the reverb side...

Anyone advocating the TC-bundle for a complete solution (including Reverb)? I\'m looking for reasonable suggestions, as I can\'t afford 2000 dollars for a dedicated TC M3000 reverb unit for mastering...and want to go the plugin route (on pc, cubase) also to cut down on distortion in the rack.

Other suggestions?

[donnie]

Composer,

Get the TC Powercore....it has the TC Megaverb on it and it is great!!!!

Donnie

[Wacky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:
************Not trying to start anything; just asking a question here************


Wacky....I thought for sure you would have something to say about the demo I posted. Is this what you were talking about? Just trying to figure this out....


Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it sounds to me like you did some controller 7 or 11 to hide the length of the crescendos. Also, it sounds like you were careful about the samples you chose.

If you play the Gen Adams Timp Cres on G2 and compare it to the Cres on F#2 the F#2 is much, much faster. This goes against the logic you and Sean have advocated that the lower you go the slower the roll. The G2 is actually pitched down from the A2 unity note. Although the A2 note sample might be the performed at the correct speed for some crescendo rolls at some tempos, by the time it is pitched down to G2 it limits itself to slow and grand tempos - if at all.

And by the time the F2 sample (which is pitched up to F#2) is pitched down to D it sounds much to slow to be useable in none but languid tempos.

In addition to the questionable programming , the Crescendo roll performances seem to be custom tailored to slower tempos. In fact, you yourself admitted you were singing phrases in your head which means you were thinking at a certain tempo.

What Siedlaczek did to get around this issue was record Crescendos at 3 different lengths and speeds.

Can you honestly say your rolls are meant to work at Allegro tempos?

No offense. Don\'t want to start anything. In fact, I am sorry the whole thing devolved.



[This message has been edited by Wacky (edited 04-10-2002).]

[apessino]

Sorry but.. I must agree with Simon here. The rolls are extremely slow, with little strenght and with a marked \"ritardo\" towards the end (many timpanists play this way, and it\'s not necessarily always a problem..).

There are quite a few exposed solo timpani rolls in the literature, off the top of my head: the first few bars of \"Il Trovatore.\" Listen to any recording by any major orchestra and you\'ll hear the difference. I own practically all of them, so mp3s can be created of necessary.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif In fact, I just made one of the Giulini/Santa Cecilia (one of my favorites), I can e-mail it to anyone who asks for it..

With that said, I still think the LOP is a wonderful library, but the rolls are too wimpy for most applications. Just my opinion, take it for what it\'s worth..

A-

--------
Andrea G. Pessino (not female, just Italian)
Blizzard Entertainment

[Wacky]

\"With that said, I still think the LOP is a wonderful library, but the rolls are too wimpy for most applications. \"

My opinion exactly...

[donnie]

There is nothing worse than a non percussionist trying to tell a percussionist how something is susposed to sound. I\'m finished trying to educate you guys so I\'ll just leave it at this....

The performances are idiomatically correct. If you don\'t like them then find something else and don\'t use them.

Wacky....there was nothing done to the midi file...as a matter of fact there wasn\'t even a midi file to begin with. I played it by pressing keys with the mouse. How easy can you get. Sorry I didn\'t happen to land on the notes you were talking about....

Donnie


PS...and my playing is anyhing but wimpy! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-10-2002).]

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-10-2002).]

[composer22]

Whacky

why dont you write us something so we can hear it and compare?

e.g. from your samples

[apessino]

>>
There is nothing worse than a non percussionist trying to tell a percussionist how something is susposed to sound.
<<

I can think of much worse things.

In any case, most conductors are not percussionists, if I were conducting a performance of, say, Trovatore and you played the rolls as you did for LOP I would politely ask you to play with more strength and speed, something I am positive you know how to do quite well. Surely you do not suggest it\'s not in a conductor\'s realm to make such requests?

Regardless, I will say it again: ever since Ultimate Percussion was released I have used nothing else, now with LOP your library got even better.. all that has been said here is that a small part of a large library is not so much deficient as simply a bit incomplete. I am sure we could find many uses for the slower rolls, it\'s just too bad there aren\'t any faster ones..

Take care,

A-

PS: I studied percussion as my \"secondary\" instrument in the conservatory, so, while I would not dare to call myself one, I have a bit of the percussionist\'s soul in me.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[composer22]

apessino

Why don\'t you write us a fast passage as a sample of what you mean?

You seem to have the library...id like to see what you are referring?

[composer22]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:
Composer,

Get the TC Powercore....it has the TC Megaverb on it and it is great!!!!

Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There goes my next paycheck! This looks good online...

[composer22]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by apessino:
...I am sure we could find many uses for the slower rolls, it\'s just too bad there aren\'t any faster ones...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im sorry, but I was just thinking during my drive that slow rolls in a fast setting may actually be benefitial...if one wanted to add a certain rhymic dissonance, which invariably a fast passage, like a chase scene, maybe au naturale...

I can\'t think of where I would need a superduper-fast timpani outside of steady doubled 16th note patterns...rolls included or tremelos

[donnie]

Very true....rolls, in a lot of ways, are like the vibrato that a string player adds. You can never please everyone with the amount that add....

Donnie

[composer22]

In otherwords, a polyrhythmic roll, going against the other rhythms in the orchestra cohesively adds tension to a passage. hmmm

Time for a beer...someday I will retire, buy a sailboat and sail to Polyrhythmia. The girls there have a heavy accent...

[Lancelink]

Just wanted to add my two cents to the timpani roll discussion.

As a drummer I have played with dozens of percussionists in both live and studio situations and I can attest (from my experience) that is how timpani rolls sound. It seems to me this whole discussion may be more about proximity to the timpani than in the technique of the player, especially in terms of Crescendo rolls.

As many have pointed out...the rolls seem too slow especially as the hits get harder. With any drum (timpani or otherwise) the louder you play the more the attack of the drum is heard and the resonance becomes secondary. Percussionist spend their whole lives trying to minimize this effect, but there is no way to totally escape the laws of physics. Notice that with most of the rolls until Donnie gets to the mf or f range you can\'t even hear how fast or slow he is playing...you just hear the beautiful wash of timpani resonance. It\'s only as the loudest strokes are being played that they are even distinguishible. If Donnie would have played faster strokes I\'m certain we would still be discussing the fact that the loud ones kind of stick out and are less homogenous than the soft strokes.

Maybe Donnie can shed some light on the mic placement used for the recording. It is my honest opinion that most of the concerns regarding the rolls stem from what people have experienced in a concert hall or on a recording, not from standing next to a percussionist.

Maybe those experiences and hence expectations in sound need to be addressed in development. (ie. more room ambience to compensate for the natural attributes of the timpani).

I\'m curious to know if there was close micing involved as well as overheads, etc. Anyway just my humble opinion.

Lance

[composer22]

makes perfect sense

[donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lancelink:
Just wanted to add my two cents to the timpani roll discussion.

As a drummer I have played with dozens of percussionists in both live and studio situations and I can attest (from my experience) that is how timpani rolls sound. It seems to me this whole discussion may be more about proximity to the timpani than in the technique of the player, especially in terms of Crescendo rolls.

As many have pointed out...the rolls seem too slow especially as the hits get harder. With any drum (timpani or otherwise) the louder you play the more the attack of the drum is heard and the resonance becomes secondary. Percussionist spend their whole lives trying to minimize this effect, but there is no way to totally escape the laws of physics. Notice that with most of the rolls until Donnie gets to the mf or f range you can\'t even hear how fast or slow he is playing...you just hear the beautiful wash of timpani resonance. It\'s only as the loudest strokes are being played that they are even distinguishible. If Donnie would have played faster strokes I\'m certain we would still be discussing the fact that the loud ones kind of stick out and are less homogenous than the soft strokes.

Maybe Donnie can shed some light on the mic placement used for the recording. It is my honest opinion that most of the concerns regarding the rolls stem from what people have experienced in a concert hall or on a recording, not from standing next to a percussionist.

Maybe those experiences and hence expectations in sound need to be addressed in development. (ie. more room ambience to compensate for the natural attributes of the timpani).

I\'m curious to know if there was close micing involved as well as overheads, etc. Anyway just my humble opinion.

Lance<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Lance,

Gosh, It is so nice to hear from another percussionist! Thank you for your comments.

The mic\'s were placed 8-10 ft back from the timpani in an actual hall. This was done to, of course, simulate the true sound of the timpani.

As far as the speed slowing down just a bit before the impact this was a technique taught to me by my professor who studied with Fred Hinger at Yale. Mr. Hinger described this as adding \"suspense\" or \"tension\" to the end of phrase. This subtle speed difference really adds to phrase endings. This is something I haven\'t touched on until now because as a developer I don\'t like to give ALL my secrets away for the next person to copy! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Donnie

[Lancelink]

Donnie

I\'m glad you addressed the slowing down technique. I was going to mention it, but I was getting long winded! I was taught the same technique...it was one of my profesors\' major dictums. He felt it gave \"breadth\" and helped to bring \"greater emotion\" when \"coming out of a roll.\"

If I had a nickel for everytime he said those words...

Thanks for the info on the mic placement. What about adding some mics from the front of the orchestra and being able to blend via mod wheel, etc. for those who want more room ambience. I know the phase situation can be difficult, but maybe it would be a nice addition for the future.

Lance

[This message has been edited by Lancelink (edited 04-10-2002).]

[A_Sapp]

I\'d like faster rolls. There\'s my two cents.

[composer22]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A_Sapp:
I\'d like faster rolls. There\'s my two cents.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'d like much slower rolls for more rhythmic dissonance and attacks...thats my 5 cents

[Damon]

I\'d like a roll with some butter please.

[composer22]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Damon:
I\'d like a roll with some butter please.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'d like slower rolls, with faster attacks but only if panned to the right speaker, and contrary motion in the left hand with 130 velocity xsamples to make sure i absoutely get everything i need into the mix for those tuttti moments. And i\'d like to be able to manipulate it w/o any MIDI whatsoever...or in fact any notes written by me or any of the composers I felt compelled to rip off.

Butter optional



[This message has been edited by composer22 (edited 04-11-2002).]

[Maarten Spruijt]

This is a useless thread IMO.

To have a good basic (medium fast-slow) cresc. timp. roll is good, but why don\'t we all just make our fast(er) cresc. rolls ourselves with seperate hits?! Can easily be done, esp. with all the alternative samples some perc. libraries offers. Perhaps soloed it sounds less realistic than the real thing, but in a mix...

Just a suggestion.

Now let\'s close this thing. Donnie posted his roll mp3, people commented on it, done. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[composer22]

yup...close this issue and move on

[Thomas_J]

I haven\'t paid too much attention to this topic, but it seems very uncalled for. People who aren\'t satisfied with the speed of the roll (which seems to be the issue here) can just manually edit the samples themselves, applying some timestretching techniques to them. Sure you\'d loose the detail, but it should do the trick as far as quickening the roll is concerned. I tend to keep my percussion in single wav format and load them up in an audio track for greater flexibility with crescendos etc. Timestretching is not to be under-estimated. Same thing goes for strings and woodwinds runs.

Thomas

[Simon Ravn]

Thomas, I hate tweaking samples. Especially when doing orchestral music. I want to play them with MIDI, record them, then maybe EQ a bit and done. Not timestretch, pitch etc etc... so yes that might work out a bit. BUt... Timestretching a roll will prolly not give the same sound as if you played it faster, since when you play faster I assume that the vibrations of the drum will have more influence on your next hit than if you play slower.

[composer22]

Ravn:

have you tried experimenting with layering? Its a wild longshot but it would be interesting