Halion as an alternative to Giga for piano

[sjduck]

Hi all

In my quest for the perfect piano, I have learned that whilst instrument and sample quality is of paramount importance, considerations such as eq and reverb are just as vital.

GigaStudio\'s built-in eq and reverb are great plugins but cannot compare to multi-band eq and quality reverb plugins provided by companies such as Waves and TC Electronics.

On the face of it, Halion (a similar disk-streaming sampler that sits within Cubase VST) appears to provide all the functionality of GigaStudio whilst giving the user access to standard Direct X plugins as mentioned above.

Whilst this may not be so important for recording musicians, for real-time live use, GigaStudio is limited in this respect.

Does anyone here have any experience of Halion?

Steve.

[tob]

Ive used halion in all my productions. Its alot more cpu demanding than GS but if you want a sampler integrated in cubase or logic you dont have much choice http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
And if you dont want to use halion theres some other alternitives like exs24, Virtual sampler, Sampletank and probably some more..

/T0B

[sjduck]

Thanks Tob

The ability to use quality direct x plugins may just swing the balance - even if I do have to go out and buy a new machine.

Any recommendations for a suitable spec to play a single, large multisample (e.g. Bardstown audio 1.5Gb piano)?

Cheers
Steve.

[Bardstown Audio]

Hello Stephen,

I have not personally tested HALion to the limits with the Bosendorfer Imperial, but for what you are wanting to be able to accomplish, it does seem logical that HALion would be a solution. Bear in mind that HALion does use quiet a bit more system resources than Giga Studio, but considering you are only loading and playing the piano without other sampled instruments, HALion will hopefully provide sufficient power for the piano plus some quality Waves and/or TC plug-in effects.

I would recommend having a faster computer in order to have maximum power for polyphony and plug-in effects. If you do not play a lot of fast passages with the sustain pedal down, HALion will probably do a respectable job without experiencing drop-outs and/or clicks and pops.

An additional solution you may want to consider in order to preserve processing power on your computer, in order to completely dedicate the computer processor for maximum polyphony in HALion, would be to have a TC Powercore card for effects, which would completely eliminate the burden from your computer processor for running TC Powercore effects. TC Powercore comes with Mega Reverb, TC EQ, Compressors, plus many other effects. www.tcworks.de (\"http://www.tcworks.de\")

Sony Oxford will soon be releasing their Sony Oxford EQ\'s in Powercore format, which are truly the most amazing and superior EQ plug-ins in the world. Once you try the Sony Oxford EQ\'s, you will never want to consider any other EQ plug-in. I am a beta tester for Sony Oxford for the Powercore format, and have also been using those plug-ins for the last several months in TDM format in Pro Tools. I have every other EQ plug-in imaginable, but for acoustic and electronic instruments, I never grab any other EQ plug-in other than the Sony EQ\'s. www.sonyplugins.com (\"http://www.sonyplugins.com\")

It does get into a bit more money in order to have this type of complete setup, but if everything works and behaves properly, it may be worth it to you.

Best wishes with your HALion pursuit.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[sjduck]

Thanks Kip. I really appreciate your info. I\'m going to see if I can get my local retailer to give me a demo.

All the best,
Steve.

[Franky]

No question about it, Halion is great for using direct x and vst effects, i sadly translate all my GIG files to Halion because there\'s no real alternative besides running 2 outputs from GIGA to 2 other inputs in Cubase which adds unwanted noise, again... we desperatly need a vsti version of GIGA, i think it is crucial for GIGA to be in vsti format to survive the new soft samplers that will be coming out soon.

Even though Halion takes more ressources it does run pretty smoothly with imported GIG files in my experience.

Kind Regards
Franky
Vintaudio Prod. www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")

[sjduck]

Just out of interest, are Giga libaries compatible with Halion straight out of the box? i.e. would I be able to load the Bardstown Bosendorfer into Halion, or would I need to tweak it/purchase a different version?

[PolarBear]

Does anybody know a definite bug that libriaries do not have in GS but have by using them with HALion?

Regards. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
Hansi

[Bardstown Audio]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sjduck:
Just out of interest, are Giga libaries compatible with Halion straight out of the box? i.e. would I be able to load the Bardstown Bosendorfer into Halion, or would I need to tweak it/purchase a different version?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Giga instrument libraries are compatible and fully translatable with HALion straight out of the box. HALion does all of the work.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Bardstown Audio]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PolarBear:
Does anybody know a definite bug that libriaries do not have in GS but have by using them with HALion?

Regards. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
Hansi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am currently running HALion version 1.1. There is a free downloadable upgrade to HALion version 1.1.1 from the Steinberg web site, which I have not yet gotten around to checking out. Version 1.1.1 is supposed to have even better translating features for Giga instruments into HALion. Most Giga instruments translate very well into HALion with the previous version 1.1. The only slight bug has been with the translation of certain complex articulation programming patches. HALion translations of straight ahead Giga instruments with multi velocity layers, release trigger samples, and triggering a different set of samples with a sustain pedal on pianos, are very straight forward simple translations into HALion without any know glitches that I am aware of.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")



[This message has been edited by Bardstown Audio (edited 04-06-2002).]

[matucha]

halion is usable sampler to me, but I\'m not sure it supports release samples as the GS. There is some release loop but... I don\'t want to use loops in my samples!

[Bardstown Audio]

The mega trig function in HALion does support release trigger samples.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[matucha]

megatrig... I found it ;-), it works ok, but I\'m unable to find the way to play different samples on release as the waveform fades away. It works for different velocities, but if I use the release sample of the ff after holding the key for 10s and then release it, it plays the loud release sample. I found it very unrealistic ;-). And I can\'t find anything that will solve this problem (no controler seems to work).

[Munsie]

Wow, this thread should be a wake up call to Tascam. This is some of the best advertising for Halion I have ever read, and it comes from Gigastudio users! Hmmm...

[Franky]

Exactly my point munsie....
If Tascam wants to be competitive and grow in the soft sampler market then GIGA = VSTI simple as that imho, already Halion supports GIG files and others more sophisticated will surely follow.
Don\'t get me wrong i love GIGA, it\'s just great but... without proper effects it\'s less attractive specially when someone has invested so much in Vst effects and direct x effects(waves, TC, etc etc...) and can access them and their GIG files through Halion.

Franky
Vintaudio Prod. www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")

[Bardstown Audio]

In a live playing situation such as what Stephen is wanting to be able to do, in order to be able to apply quality effects, such as quality EQ and reverb, I very much see the advantage of using HALion as opposed to Giga Studio. But on the other hand, for music production in a studio, I prefer Giga Studio considering it has more sophisticated capabilities of programming and controlling various functions such as filters and release samples. Giga Studio does have tighter and more detailed control over these functions, as opposed to HALion. There are more capabilities in Giga, which allow you to be able to control the degree of effect of filters and release samples.

In a music production situation, Giga Studio should be used as a dedicated sampler, and NOT to be considered a complete production tool, thus having quality effects, quality mixing capabilities, and final mastering. There are many high quality audio software solutions, which are many giant steps ahead of Giga Studio for mixing, effects processing, and mastering. Anyone who is serious about music production should have at least two dedicated computers... one for Giga Studio and midi, and the other one for recording, mixing, effects processing, and mastering, such as Logic Platinum 5, Samplitude, Pro Tools, Digital Performer 3, Sonar, Cubase, or Nuendo.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")




[This message has been edited by Bardstown Audio (edited 04-07-2002).]

[paynterr]

Very much a wake up call... I am an EX gigasampler user having recently (successfully) made the switch from GS to Halion and am VERY happy with it... talk about lovely... beautiful integration with cubase, being able to use 3rd party plug ins... this is all I\'ve ever wanted... I\'ve converted Dan Dean (all libs), Garritan strings, rare instruments... you name it... they all work really well... the only slightly annoying feature is that Halion defauls to playing NOTHING when you load a kewswitched file in... you have to press a keyswitch key to actually hear a note... I thought this was a big first of all... there should be something to nominate a default key like there is in GS... but other than that, Halion is VERY much a wake-up call to Tascam...
I\'ve downloaded the latest 1.1.1 version of Halion... go for it... you\'ll love it...
http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif)

[paynterr]

As another note, this forum needs to become a \"SAMPLE LIB\" forum, rather than just GS, since that is the most important aspect, not necessarily whether you are using GS or Halion (or whatever) to drive your samples...

[sjduck]

Oh dear - I think I\'ve started a revolt! The sad thing is, the Nemesys programmers are probably more talented than the Steinberg guys. More creative, more clever at resource handling.

No doubt Tascam\'s next Giga offering will be a strong contender to the disk streaming throne... Please let it support Direct X plugins.

[Franky]

I agree, if Giga could within the program use directx effects it would be awesome, i hadn\'t thought of that http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Integrated DirectX effects in Giga hmmm yummmm http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


Franky
Vintaudio Prod.

[midphase]

How about Giga for the Mac? How about Giga for not just VSTi but also MAS, RTAS, TDM etc.

I have used HALion, and Unity Session, they are both nice, but Gigasampler would be better than a program that merely \"imports\" GS libraries!

Why are Tascam and Nemesys so hard headed about porting to the Mac? (or to other plug-in formats)

PS.

Yeah, yeah, I know that it\'s a lot of code....but GS has been in existence for years and if they had been working on it they would have a port by now!

PSS.

Yeah, yeah, I know PC\'s are cheap, but that\'s not the point. Why can\'t I have a self contained studio in a laptop? The hardware is there, why can\'t the software guys catch up!

Allright, I\'m done with my ranting, thank you very much!

[sjduck]

I remember reading somewhere that the Nemesys guys want to port it over to the Mac, but that it would take a complete re-write to do it. Something to do with writing the software at kernel level I think - which is apparently why Giga is so good with lower spec hardware.

Given the choice, I would much rather use a standalone app (Giga) than something merely \'bolted\' onto VST.

I too wanted a laptop solution, but by the time you add $xxx for a decent PCMCIA sound card, $xxx for a firewire hard drive and $xxx for expensive laptop RAM, you could have bought yourself a cutting edge PC and a half decent sample library.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by midphase:
How about Giga for the Mac? How about Giga for not just VSTi but also MAS, RTAS, TDM etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I think the thing you have to consider is this: Do you want TASCAM to spend time and resources doing what amounts to four or five lateral development projects, or do you want them to keep moving ahead? Face it, Halion wouldn\'t have existed if Nemesys hadn\'t broken the barriers, and even now, Steinberg has no clue how to approach GigaStudio\'s actual streaming/polyphony performance.

Now, that may not be important to some folks, but for the primary market GigaStudio has positioned itself to serve, it is of extreme importance. Whether that niche market is enough to sustain GigaStudio\'s future is another matter entirely, but TASCAM has fairly deep pockets compared to ANY of the software market competitors, so it stands to reason that they\'ll do very well by positioning GigaStudio as a boutique brand, and pushing the envelope on innovation, not lateral platform development.

Besides, there are other technologies available to make Giga \"compatible\" with sequencing products, such as ReWire, etc., and even more of these on the horizon. I personally don\'t think pursuing VSTi or DXi for GigaStudio is particularly attractive, since one definite end result would be a huge tech support avalanche. Users would undoubtedly grind their machines to a total standstill, and wonder what \"giga\" did wrong to cause it.

What Nemesys has done with GigaStudio has worked, has had a marvelous stimulating effect and created several cottage industries behind it, and now has spawned a whole slew of imitators. Be careful what you ask for, you may get it...and we\'ll lose out on the pure concentration upon innovation that brought us here.

Bruce

[jubal]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
Besides, there are other technologies available to make Giga \"compatible\" with sequencing products, such as ReWire, etc., and even more of these on the horizon.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bruce...I just received Logic 5 which has some ReWire support. Is this enough to have the Giga app communicate directly to the Logic app? Or more general, how does one use ReWire to integrate Giga with any sequencer?

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jubal:
Bruce...I just received Logic 5 which has some ReWire support. Is this enough to have the Giga app communicate directly to the Logic app? Or more general, how does one use ReWire to integrate Giga with any sequencer?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry if my post was unclear--GigaStudio does not support ReWire, at least not currently. I was merely pointing out that TASCAM has other options available for sequencer integration besides the route of VSTi or DXi instrument porting. ReWire is a Propellerheads standard, used by ReBirth and Reason to communicate with sequencers which support it. The ReWire 2.0 specification is capable of passing lots of different information--for instance, GigaStudio could tell your sequencer what keys were \"keyswitches\" and if the sequencer manufacturer was really intent upon supporting Giga, it could use this info to do searchbacks for Keyswitch notes. There is a lot that can be done.

I am personally opposed to Giga developers spending time supporting VSTi, DXi, etc...where does that end? I want Giga to keep on blazing trails, not spend time backfilling into every conceivable format. There are plenty of \"me too\" products which already do that very well. Giga just needs to keep on being Giga.

Now, plugging DXi or VSTi instruments INTO Giga...there\'s something I\'d be more interested in seeing.

[sjduck]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
Now, plugging DXi or VSTi instruments INTO Giga...there\'s something I\'d be more interested in seeing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is precicely what I am looking for too. Apparently this question has already been put to the development team. Unfortunately, they say that the performance trade-off of adding non-kernel level plugin compatibility to Giga would result in unacceptable performance levels to the user.

If it\'s just a case of adding more RAM (as with Halion), I for one would much rather go down that avenue than change to a different host application altogether and \'import\' all my libraries.

[This message has been edited by sjduck (edited 04-09-2002).]

[john g]

I don\'t want to seem a ....disturber, but if the purpose you have in mind is solo piano work, and you want quality REVERB, don\'t start throwing cash into plug-in verbs.

I\'m a VERB-FANATIC. I\'ve tried everything out there I could get my hands on for P.C. You want/need a CARD that supports reverb, not Halion plus Ren VERB (the best soft verb I\'m aware of) or someother plugin verb.

I\'ll take flak for this, I know, but listen to the quality of verb a crummy little card like SB Audigy will give you. For example, listen to Fugue 8 at my site. (Don\'t listen to the whole thing. That\'s too much work. Just listen for a few sections to the verb on this one.)

The Oxford verb sounds VERY INTERESTING. That\'s essentially a card-supported verb, I assume. So, again, stick with GS so you can EDIT AND TWEEK you\'re samples. That\'s super-important. Why, because you want to run your verb, if necessary, AS YOU TWEEK YOUR SAMPLE--in this case the Bardstown Bos. (I take it that\'s what you want to use.)

Just listen to this verb and see if that\'s where you want to go...
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\") I suggested Fugue 8, but pretty much any slow piece will give you some idea of the verb you can get from, as I say, a cheapo card like the SB Audigy

Oh, yah, if you want a faster piece with Audigy verb try Prelude 3. It\'s not too long either.
John G.

P.S. Don\'t shread me, guys.

[This message has been edited by john g (edited 04-09-2002).]

[RobertKooijman]

Nice thread guys!

Just want to confirm that Halion 1.1.1 imports Bardstown Audio\'s Bosendorfer Imperial Grand without problems, including release notes.

I\'m also using Kip\'s Classic Accordeons and Archtop guitars in Halion. Without any tweaking, all these libraries play \'off the shelf\' in Halion. If you want to get the max out of them though, some tweaking is still required. For instance, setting up Modwheel controlled Xfades, or introduction of a slight randomness to the pitch of notes played. Thanks to Halion\'s straightforward GUI and smart editing options, this isn\'t too much of an issue.

\"The sad thing is, the Nemesys programmers are probably more talented than the Steinberg guys. More creative, more clever at resource handling.\"

Sjduck:
Don\'t forget that Steinberg doesn\'t have the luxury of developing stand-alone applications that don\'t need to share too much of resources.

The near silence from the Giga front regarding system integration and support of the very popular VST format, shows that its developers are either not as smart as you think, or company politics prohibit such progress. In any case, the end result is the same.

One thing worth mentioning is that Halion offers various modes of playing back samples. You can desable envelopes, filters e.g. to save CPU resources. Applying this wisely, you can get an awfull lot of voices out of one or more instances of Halion. An up to date PC allows you to load 2-4 GB of RAM. When setting RAM preload in Halion to the current minimum of 1 second, this translates in plenty of Gigabytes sample data that you can use WHILE running your sequencer, other plug-ins and effects all at the same time all on the same PC!

Cheers, Robert.

[sjduck]

Good news indeed! Is anyone aware of any problems with release triggers in Halion?

[matucha]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sjduck:
Good news indeed! Is anyone aware of any problems with release triggers in Halion?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn\'t try any samples with r. triggers to load into halion, but I can\'t get triggers work the way I like now. Maybe I\'m overlooking something or I didn\'t get the principle right, but after holding ff note of my rhodes for longer time and releasing the key and get the same loud note-off sample as after holding it only shortly, it doesn\'t work for me. I tried manual and plaing with megatrig settings and... nothing.

any sample developer hint? can anyone write me how is megatrig set on your working release-trigered giga instrument in halion? Thanks alot.

[Franky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:

Now, plugging DXi or VSTi instruments INTO Giga...there\'s something I\'d be more interested in seeing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting idea,
I understand where you\'re coming from Bruce and you are right the developers at Nemesys need to be concentrated on specific goals and keep giving us a rock solid platform, but for those of us not using 2 computers to run GIGA, it\'s a pain to get real time effects in.

I\'m at a point where my computer is fast enough to handle GIGA and Vst or DirectX effects at the same time, the technology from GIGA though is not, but Halion is.

I also have to disagree about Steinberg and disk streaming, Halion streams great from my HD, for example Steinway B which is 1.6 GIGS loads with only 2 second preload, it may take a bit more ressources than GIGA but still.... i am running it inside Cubase and can slap on any effect i want Vst or DirectX, for me that\'s really important, specially regarding my guitar collection.

I don\'t know what the solution is, i just know even though GIGA is great, i find myself using 90 % of my GIGA libraries with Halion for convenience, i\'d much rather be using GIGA, Rewire would be nice.

Franky
Vintaudio www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")