Would love opinions on my contest entry

[Jamieh]

So I finally got around to doing my entry for this years Turner Classic Movies Young Film Composers Competition and I\'d love to get feedback from anyone who is willing to listen to my entry.

If you would like to view the film clip along with the music (Be warned that this is a very large (7.5 MB) download!), go to http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/donjuan.avi (\"http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/donjuan.avi\")

If you would like to just hear the music (kind of hard to evaluate without the film) check it out at http://www.mp3.com/JamieHall (\"http://www.mp3.com/JamieHall\")

It is the Don Juan clip on that page.

Most of the instruments (everything but woodwinds and drums) were done with Giga. Note that while I did try to make it sound as \"real\" as possible, there were some parts where I sacrificed the realness of the piece in order to get the exact orchestration I wanted, as it was intended to be a mockup of an actual orchestral piece. If it is selected as a semi-finalist, I will have to fully orchestrate it, so I put in some stuff (especially the fast string work at the beginning) because I wanted it there even though it isn\'t convincing in the mock-up.

All comments both good and bad are welcome. I was a semi-finalist in 2000, and I\'m hoping I can get back there this year.



[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-02-2002).]

[Bardstown Audio]

BRAVO!!!

Kip
Bardstown Audio

[Z6]

Excellent! I especially liked the way the music reflected the action beautifully, especially toward the end, when the mood changes from frantic action to victory.

You have a great chance with this.

[Gulliver]

Really well done, specially the last 30 seconds. When the ear hears good music (specially coupled with images) all thoughts about sample authenticity become secondary.

Nice job. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Jamieh]

Tbanks for the kind words guys. They will be announcing the semi-finalists later this month, so I\'ll keep my fingers crossed!

[KingIdiot]

music sounds good

works well with the video.

The mix sounds kind of weird tho. It just doesn\'t seem balanced.

Just my opine tho http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

anyhow good luck

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Jamieh]

King, I\'d love more feedback on the mix, as I\'m always looking for ways to improve things. Can you be a little more specific on what you feel is out of balance? Are you referring to brass vs string volume? I noticed the brass dominates the mix a bit.

Part of it could be the mp3 conversion--I had to bring it down to 128KBPS for the contest.

Fortunately the main point of this contest is the music and not the recording.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-04-2002).]

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamieh:

Fortunately the main point of this contest is the music and not the recording.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-04-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This what people might say, and I\'m sure they would believe that about themselves (that they can somehow separate out the \'realness\' and the mix from the sound they are hearing; i.e. the \'music\').

In the real world, that never happens. There are are examples of this strewn thoughout music when \'judges\' become involved.

A pianist like Horovitz, or a guitarist like Bream probably wouldn\'t make it in the modern world because their techniques would be judged as \'faulty\' (at least subconsciously).

I thought your music was terrific, but to win a competition (judged by people), the recording that sounds most \'real\' and professionally mixed has a great advantage.

It reminds me of my college days when we had to do \'technique\' exams - as if somehow a player\'s technique could live apart from the rest of him.

I recently listened to Jeremy\'s Soule\'s stuff at the GOS wbsite. I thought it was marvelous. I can\'t remember the tunes at all. I remember how \'real\' it sounded.

I once had a conversation with a world-renowned guitarist who had won every major competition; he told me that he must have had a \'technique\' that played well in competitions (he did, he never made \'mistakes\').

I would be interested to hear the \'winner\' of this competition (the recording that was submitted, not the orchestrated version).

IF you don\'t win this year, why don\'t you try using your best samples, with a professional mixing job? That is, turn the statement above on its head: assume that it is the mix and the \'realness\' that is being judged?

(And I admit that I don\'t enjoy even the concept of \'competitions\' with judging panels - but if it helps a young composer\'s career, I suppose they\'re worth entering.)

Good luck with this.


[This message has been edited by Z6 (edited 04-04-2002).]

[mschiff]

Jamieh,

Great job! It fits the action perfectly and sounds great.

-- Martin

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
I recently listened to Jeremy\'s Soule\'s stuff at the GOS wbsite. I thought it was marvelous. I can\'t remember the tunes at all. I remember how \'real\' it sounded.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeremy has the advantage of having his own custom sample library. My Giga is already maxed out polyphony-wise with the samples I\'m using in the piece. I need to upgrade to a 2 machine setup (or find less poly-hogging instruments) if I\'m going to add any samples. I\'m sure the mix could be done better--I didn\'t spend a ton of time on it. However, it is hard to spend a lot of time on a mix of something that is going to only be heard as a 128K MP3.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>I would be interested to hear the \'winner\' of this competition (the recording that was submitted, not the orchestrated version).

IF you don\'t win this year, why don\'t you try using your best samples, with a professional mixing job? That is, turn the statement above on its head: assume that it is the mix and the \'realness\' that is being judged?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have not been overly impressed with some of the past winners, either in their recording or in their musicality, but that is why everyone has their own opinion right? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I figure that I can\'t be too far out to lunch on what they are looking for since I at least was a semi-finalist in 2000. That entry was done pre-giga fully on my Roland JV-1080, so this entry is light-years better in terms of sound quality.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-04-2002).]

[Thomas_J]

First I\'d like to say good luck to you Jamieh! I haven\'t heard your music but I\'m sure you stand a good chance against the other competitors since you made it to the semi-finale last year!

What\'s the deal about this contest anyway? I think it\'s too bad that they don\'t allow overseas composers to enter. I wanted to enter last year too. Oh well maybe next year.

Thomas

[Jamieh]

I\'m not sure why the contest is US only. Probably due to legal issues. Or it could be because the winner has to fly to LA and spend a significant amount of time there, and they don\'t want to fly someone internationally.

Based on the music of yours I have heard, I\'m lucky that you can\'t enter Thomas. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-04-2002).]

[Thomas_J]

Haha thank you. I\'ll email them and ask. Doubt it\'ll make any difference though. I\'ll check out your music tomorrow and give you some feedback. Is it too late to change things or do you still have some time left?

Thomas

[Jamieh]

No, my entry is final. It had to be in by the end of March. I was really busy, so I didn\'t really get a chance to work on it until right before it was due. There are a few changes I would make if I had more time, but I\'m reasonably happy with it.

[Z6]

Hey Thomas, why tell them you\'re not in the USA?

If you win, then you can always pick up a cheap ticket to LA.

Surely, if you won, they wouldn\'t deny you the prize (and if they did, it would be cool to tell \'the press\' when I worked as a journo I loved that type of story, plenty of reporters would - and it would give you great bragging rights).

Funny you should respond to this. My previous post was not in any way a criticism of Jamie\'s music (or his mix) which I think has a great chance.

I was actually thinking of you when I wrote it. I am always impressed not just by your fine compositional skills but by the way you seem to build your music around your sample set.

It seems there is no point just writing what you feel like if you\'re going to have to record using a given set of tools; those tools have to be maximized.

Anyway, I think you should have a go man.

[Jamieh]

The question on something like this is do you write what sounds best on your tools, or do you write what will sound best with an orchestra? The semi-finalists have to submit a complete orchestral score, so you want to write stuff in a way that will work well with orchestras, yet still sound good with your tools.

I guess the best scenario would be to have an orchestra actually record the piece for you, but even if you have access to an orchestra that you can record (I could probably have gotten a high school orchestra) the amount of work involved in creating parts for the entire orchestra, not to mention recording issues and non-professional players, is a big issue.

As for the US only thing--I think they made a pretty big point of it in the contest rules. I suppose if you had a US relative you could use their address and phone and probably get away with it. I don\'t know if they ever check official documentation. Since the competition has a strict age limit of 35, I imagine at some point you have to prove your date of birth, which would require official docs.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-04-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

Jamieh,

The brass is way dominant, but I dont think its really because of the writing, but more the mixing.

I hear basses and lower strings, but they are drowned by the brass IMO.

It sounds like ALL the brass is coming from one point. There is a little bit of depth, but still int he end the whole thing sounds like a MIDI performance (which of course it is)...

I think try panning the horns to the left a bit, then add a bigger/wider decay so they take up more space in the mix. The Percussion sounds liek the JV stuff...do you have any better for the snares atleast? The percussion sounds like its all coming from one point as well and the decay seems either noon existant or really \"narrow\". I think you need a wider decay on the reverb to make it all seem like its in one room.

even a verb over the top of the mix might help.

I took the liberty of throwing some verb and plugs on the mix. I needed to take a break from composing it was driving me nuts on this project....

anyhow. Its probably too much verb, but it only because I\'m applying it to the whole mix. Serperately I would have mixed it slightly different.

Anyhow, the brass sounds \"bigger\" now, but I still feel its unbalanced, and the strings seem to be only violins coming from one side as well. just sor tof off kilter sounding. I though the reverb over the top would help,..and while it blended the mix...it still needed to be \"too much\" with the reverb I used. Maybe a shorter decay would have helped...

oh well thanks for about 15 minutes worth of distraction http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

here\'s the file
http://www.musicyouneed.com/DJedit/DJedit.mp3 (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/DJedit/DJedit.mp3\")

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 04-04-2002).]

[Jamieh]

Thanks King! Yeah, I think it is the trombones that are too loud and are overpowering things. I was planning on going back and toning them down, but I finished up at 4AM one night and, well, never got back to it. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

The strings are thin because I had to pull some out due to polyphony problems. In fact, I had to cut the violas entirely. I was getting massive drop out on my sustained brass notes due to having the whole string section. I think my next setup will have a machine dedicated to GigaStrings so that I can A) Get the polyphony I want, and B) crank up the volume on the strings in general. The problem I have with gigastrings is that I layer all of my brass, so the end result is that the strings, especially the low ones. get covered up too much. I realized this was a problem.

Yep, snares and timp are JV. Again, no polyphony left. I\'m going to get LOP once I have my two machine setup. They ARE panned hard left. Probably too far.

Sounds like I should play with my panning settings a bit. I set them up a while ago and I wasn\'t really paying enough attention. In the orchestras I\'ve played with, most of the brass sat on the right, so I have most of it panned that way. I think you are right that it would sound better panned wider. Maybe I should also add a little more reverb to the whole thing too (there IS an overall reverb on things, but I try not to overreverb stuff).

I liked some of what you did with the mp3, though I agree the reverb is a bit heavy.

I want to get my new setup going soon and redo a bunch of my old JV stuff with Gigastudio, so this is all helpful stuff. Unfortunately being a composer and being a sound engineer are two entirely different things. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif In general I get too \"familiar\" with the way things sound and don\'t tweak them enough.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-05-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

Have you thought about \"combining\" your layered brass into one patch?

I know you combine DD and QLB.

I made a horn patch with a mix off AO, DD and QLB for myself. Using one stereo wave. and filters. Great for mockups and even some finals.

You could build multiple velocity versions and even versions with \"alternate takes\" for variety.

All this saving poly and mixing hassles..... well ofcourse until you decide to try and crossfade and use layers.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif heheee

Seriously tho, Filters on brass goes a LOOOOONG way. mix that with multiple velocities and you can get some great results. and its not REALLY that much work.

People complain about it, but in the end if you do it, you realize its not too much work, and it saves you alot of time later.

Damn lazy people http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif heheee

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Really...I am an Idiot

[gabriels]

Jamie,
Very impressive indeed! It does what I think good movie music is intended to do... support what\'s happening on the screen without calling too much attention to itself.

I\'m sure, over time, any issues you have with sample quality and mixing will fall away.

My only criticism is that I felt the tempo was a bit fast. I\'m not sure what makes me feel this, since I\'m sure there has been succesful \"action\" music that is even faster. I\'ve listened several times, and sometimes I think that the music kind of stumbles over itself here and there.... almost as if the time is contracting and expanding (which I doubt it is) or that some elements in the music are at a different tempo from others. I don\'t know, it\'s so subtle that I can\'t quite put my finger on it... and maybe it\'s totally in my mind.

But please don\'t take this as a thumbs down. I do think your piece is well crafted and effective. Keep writing!
Gabriel

[Thomas_J]

I just watched the .avi with your music. I will comment on the music that you have composed.

My initial thought was \"woah, this sounds like Cutthroat Island!\" - coz the first few notes were the exact same ones. Luckily you didn\'t copy it.

The whole piece flows well throughout the short clip and works well. To me it sounds as much a parody of the golden age music as a musical parody of the visuals. I thought it was amusing. I like the way you establish a theme for the action part and let it play long enough to make the listener/viewer interested in it, and then repeat it in a major-renderition as victory comes to the hero. Simple but effective trick.

As for the orchestration I think it is too busy. You are utilizing brass in a very non efficient way. First of all the thick brass textures leaves little room for other instruments (like the strings who are fighting to gain attention to my ears). I don\'t think this is a mixing issue, rather a compositional/orchestrational defficiency. If you reserved trombones and tuba for some more percussive work (in their lower range) you\'d leave plenty of headroom in the orchestration for other less powerful instruments to shine through. Having said that, I think you\'re writing well, keeping it exciting and interesting. The brass is very fatiguing on my ears because the bones play in unison with horns in far too many cases. This full sound sucks out the energy in the rest of the instruments in a strange way. If you reserved the theme for horns and gave the bones a minor rhytmical role to back up the beat and establish a more \"pulsating\" and dramatic feel throughout the action part, I think the music would sound less busy and more stressed and tense!

These are of course only some views I gathered from watching the clip several times. People may have different ideas. Orchestration is an artform with few rules, but there is a standard set of guidelines which you can follow for an effective and professional orchestration. I\'m still learning this, but the more I learn, the more \"mistakes\" I discover in my own music. It\'s not something you ever master, it\'s just something you get better at with time. Sounds like you\'re pretty far ahead already, with the few subjective exceptions of my opinions.

So in the end, great job! and I wish you all the best in the contest.

Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 04-05-2002).]

[Jamieh]

Actually Thomas, the original cut of the piece that I had did exactly what you said--it had the horns playing the theme by themselves. However the horn part was getting lost--I like my horn sound but I couldn\'t get it loud enough by itself, so I threw the bones in along with it. If I had been simply orchestrating the piece I probably would have left it just horns. Actually I don\'t tend to use trombones in the melody in most of my writing--this piece is an exception.

I agree that I needed to turn the trombones down a few notches. Oh well, not much I can do for this entry, but I can keep it in mind for the future.

I\'m glad you noticed the minor/major key thing. That was a big part of the writing process, as I wrote the major key theme first and then went back and tried to figure out how to work it in enough in a minor key to make it recognizable. It is pretty hard to do any kind of theme development in 90 seconds!!

Yeah, it is a slight parody on the \"golden age\" of music. The film is pretty bad IMO, and I wasn\'t sure what to do with the cuts to the heroine looking all worried, so I figured I would play them up, kind of in the style of the earlier part of the 20th century. I\'m not sure how else you could take this film--I mean the guy wins because his enemies are so stupid they ride right off of a cliff!! Plus it is a silent film, so there isn\'t any dialog or sound effects to worry about, so I figure the music might as well take center stage.

Anyways, I will take your suggestions to heart. I especially agree with the whole horn/trombone thing--I need to figure out a way to get my horn sound to cut through the mix better. Thanks for listening!

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-05-2002).]

[thesoundsmith]

Jamieh,

One much cheaper solution to heavliy tracked Giga orchestrations is to record the tracks to an audio hard disk system like Logic, Digital Performer, etc. This has a number of advantages - better plugins available, less concern with MIDI delays, etc.

You can either send individual tracks from Giga to the HDR (hard disk recorder) or mix a section at a time to two tracks in the HDR and mix the sections to final - whichever way gives you the best sound.

But I definitely agree with the rest of the group - submit your best-soounding performance/mix to the judges, then prepare the properly-orchestrated version when you win. Judges are only human (at best!) and they can\'t help but respond to a great production, especially if the question becomes which of two submissions to pick-both are equally creative, but one sounds like a million bucks, the other sounds like a hundred.

Good luck!

Dasher

[donimon]

Very impressive. I\'m sort of a lurker on this site for a long time, but am making a point to get more involved and post. Just listened to your piece for a few times. From a compositional standpoint, I think you did an amazing job. You have a definite maturity and grasp of writing for an orchestra and if I were judging this contest, that\'s what I\'d base it on. So, good luck.........

[Jamieh]

Yeah, I considered that, but I like to be able to hear the finished product as I write, and recording it in multiple passes isn\'t going to be able to do that for me. Still, it would save a lot of money over going for the 2 system approach.

[Jamieh]

Heh, I obviously need to figure out a way to get donimon on the judging panel..... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Christopher Drake]

well...for what its worth..at the time that I entered my submission last year I had just got my first giga rig...only used AO and QLB through waves trueverb and L1 limiter...it was the first thing I ever did with my giga rig...and really entered the competition as an exercise, a test drive for my new giga system..writing for silent film, I think you have to be in a different mindset...because the music compensates for lack of dialog and SFX, also the acting is more \"over the top\" as most of the actors just came of the stage, so when I wrote my piece, I kept it pretty melodramatic, to accompany the silent acting style. I also found myself writing to fit the samples, as opposed to writing for the orchestration...which is obvously limiting as far as writing, but I think helps sell it as realistic sounding. Ultimately how \"real\" it sounds is up to you to judge, but the TCM judges awarded me 2nd place last year....I think the piece is still up at MP3 if you would like to check it out...I havent been there since last year, so I dont know if its still active....Good luck Jamieh, nice work!

OK ...I guess the old MP3 page is still up..if anyone is interested in checking out my entry from last year...you can find it here...

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/241/christopher_drake.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/241/christopher_drake.html\")



[This message has been edited by Christopher Drake (edited 04-10-2002).]

[nathanmj]

Nice work Jamieh. Hope to see you in the semi\'s.



[This message has been edited by nathanmj (edited 04-10-2002).]

[Jamieh]

Well I didn\'t watch the movie so I can\'t comment on how it fits, but I liked the music. It was very moody and atmospheric, which if I remember the clip from when I looked at them all, fits pretty well. I remember thinking, \"what the heck would I do with that? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I don\'t think you have to have the full-out best rig to get considered. I was a semi-finalist in 2000 with a score done fully on a JV1080. It was a decent rendering considering what I had, but nothing compared to what Giga can do. It was picked over people that had actual orchestras record their music. So at least SOME of the judges try to listen past the recording and get to the music. It probably depends on the individual judge in terms of how much he is influenced by the recording.

You can listen to my old clip at http://www.mp3.com/JamieHall (\"http://www.mp3.com/JamieHall\")
It is the Ben Hur clip.

[nathanmj]

\"at least SOME of the judges try to listen past the recording and get to the music\"

Good for them and for all of us.

Thanks for your comments.

[nathanmj]

And I\'ve listened to your Ben Hur clip. Yes, the sounds are inferior to what you have now, but honestly I liked it better. Which is not necessarily a comment on the relative quality of your two compositions. More likely is that I prefer the mood of the Ben Hur film clip to the mood of the Don Juan film clip, and your music successfully intensified my preferences.

There is a scene in the clip I scored during which a woman suddenly flings open the window shutters. Very melodramtic. The scene annoyed a friend of mine, and he commented \"your music makes it worse\". In other words, right on. The funny thing about scoring to picture I suppose.

[Jamieh]

I thought the Ben Hur film clip in 2000 was easier to write to than the Don Juan clip this year. It had at least two very clear events in it to write to. The Don Juan clip is a straight action clip, with the victory being the only real significant event in the clip (at least IMO). There was a lot of \"dead space\" where they are just doing generic fighting without any real points to write to.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-10-2002).]

[nathanmj]

I agree. That fact, together with my lack of convincing brass sounds other than some decent french horns, scared me away from the clip. Credit to you for taking it on.